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I would not want to use a vehicle for follow up. I do not have any phusical problems right now. However, if a hunter has some sort of physical limitation, then I have NO problem with him/her doing their entire hunt, including shooting out of a vehicle. I am a new bow hunter. I researched "broadheads" and watched a lot of bow hunting shows. I decieded that for ME I would NEVER use a expandable/mechanical broadhead. Not even on Texas deer, much less anything bigger. I use Mangus Buzz Cut broadheads and the two deer I have shot, one at 24 one at 25 yards I used the same arrow, same broadhead, and I got complete penetration on both animals. My bow pulls 64 lbs. I also always carry a 44 Mag handgun when I bow or rifle hunt. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Hulme: What do you mean it is not mandatory for a PH to retrieve every 'stray(WTF?) wounded DG animal? Are you now making the rules? Heaven forbid. There's a bit of your own medicine son, I know you hate to take it. People's lives do not hang in the balance when a PH does not successfully retrieve a wounded duiker, for sure, but people's lives ALWAYS hang in the balance when a wounded DG game animal is not retrieved, until that animal dies or recovers fully. Surely you don't need this explained to you? Why do you think it is referred to as dangerous game? OK, I will explain again and elaborate, a PH may have "mandatory" rules & guidelines he is expected & legally obligated to follow, but as an individual he can elect not to, nor be physically forced to follow them. This is exactly what happened in the subject of this thread, hence the discussion on use of aircraft. So despite mandatory rules and regs, he still has other options up his sleeve is he so chooses, right or wrong. On the other hand, "Mandatory" also means non-elective,forced,[cannot be avoided] i.e; The Fact that an aircraft will come back to ground is not optional,you don't have choice, it will come down on your terms or eventually on its own terms. Such things are governed by laws of physics, not man made laws and regs. Pilots have no choice as to whether an aircraft will or will not come back down to earth, its Mandatory/guaranteed it will come to ground for one reason or another. however its not mandatory that a PH will always have a difficult wounded/dangerous DG to take care of. Peoples safety/lives in DG hunting mostly hang in the baLance when a creature is wounded,most other times of a hunt [which could be hrs or days without encounter],folks can plod along on the ground in relative safety. The minute you take off/leave the ground in an aircraft you are preparing for a "controlled crash" [whether planned or emergency],or other wise known as a safe landing....an aircraft hangs in that precarious situation for the whole duration of each and every flight. TO PUT IN SIMPLE TERMS, A PH CAN WALK AWAY FROM A DG ENCOUNTER IF HE SO CHOOSES AND PRESERVE HIS LIFE, A PILOT CANNOT WALK AWAY FROM HIS HELICOPTER IN FLIGHT TO PRESERVE HIS & OTHERS LIVES. HE HAS TO CONSTANTLY DEAL/HANDLE THE CONSTANT RISK-DANGEROUS NATURE OF THE MACHINE WHILST AIRBORNE, OR HE WILL END-UP MOST CERTAINLY DEAD IF HE CHOOSES NOT TO TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY. ITS OBVIOUS A PH DOES NOT FIND HIMSELF IN SUCH PROLONGED RISK RESPONSIBLE-DANGEROUS SITUATION ANYWHERE NEAR AS REGULARLY OR CONSTANTLY AS A PILOT, IN THE COURSE OF HIS EVERYDAY PROFF. DUTIES & RESPONSIBILITIES. Technically speaking, the PH failed to do his duties in stopping or retrieving the Buff in the normal manner. The Heli pilot was successful in assisting the client/hunt to resolve a mess[wounded DG on the loose], and was successful in getting himself & passenger[s] safely back on the ground. I can almost see the whining response to this 'But why should we listen to you, why should you deem what is right and wrong, why can't we hunt by helicopter. Do what you like elsewhere Trax, and encourage as many other pseudo hunters you want to do the same. But 'elsewhere' is the operative word here. Do yourself a favor and don't consider helicopter hunting/retrieving on my turf, or hunting from a vehicle, which I have warned you about before. Because I will see you brought to book if you try that, my word. Sure if its legally wrong, one should abide. You have tried to quote Zim rules and regs before, first you werent exactly sure what they were, then you quoted some, but not all, and failed to state what they applied to specifically, and failed to point out there were different rules & regs for private Vs other lands. You made it sound like one set of laws/regs applied to all of Zim, till someone had to enlighten the forum to your vagueness. I am getting a bit tired of explaining right and wrong to adults. As already stated, most here understand the fundamentals so what I am essentially doing is trying to talk sense to a few extremists who will never be converted. Your tired of continually trying to convert people?... continually trying to convert people is typical extremist behaviour in itself. But ask just about any extremist if he thinks he is an extremist himself, and he will most likely say no. | |||
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+1 Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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a certain number of folks like ravenr,Saeed,Chuck375 and possibly others, do believe its about bravery, other wise they would not have called them cowards.
Pilots are often called by ground troops for assistance, i.e; troops who are faced with particularly challenging,difficult,threatening or overly dangerous terrain,environments or situations,... Pilots can assist by locating,identifying,reducing and/or totally decimating that threat,hindrance or danger to ground troops. That may be in the form of ordnance/laying down weapons fire. Other forms of air assistance include carting troops over or around certain zones or hotspots that are deemed better for ground troops to avoid, other times they are required to take troops to a zone/hotspot they specifically need to deal with. Not many folk would accuse fully professional ground troops as being "pseudo" soldiers, for using the convenience & tactical advantage of air support to start,continue or finish a task. Its fear of facing/creating a combat situation[where they have a higher chance of death/loss], that causes them to call air-support, to reduce exposure/workload/risk. Even elite special forces, have found themselves in circumstances where they realise its best to hightail it out of certain hot zones/conflicts that they have found themselves being entangled in,if at all possible. In one op. in Afghanistan, Green Berets were scattered & pinned down by enemy fire. Even the support AH64s called in,could not stay long enough to provide effective assistance to allow the troops to reorganise/regroup[due to the swarm of arms fire the ah64s were also receiving]. They, the troops and pilots, don't consider the decision to not do something stupid, as cowardice. They were simply first & foremost trying to survive. Sometimes its best to live to fight another day. Like the PH, they started a job they could not finish on their own. | |||
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Lots of heat in this thread. Have not seen the show but I'd wager the hunter involved is very disappointed in how his DG hunt ended. The upside is the bull was bagged and nobody got maimed. Not a happy ending but when ANY client fails ...................... PH's clean up the mess. Dispatch via chopper? No big deal, just one PH's method of handling a clients failure. Not the way I'd want to follow up a wounded animal but it was likely the PH's call. Those of you who abhor a chopper dispatch likely need to vent on the PH involved. Bowhunting DG requires specialized equipment. Operator I hunted with was specific on what is required, heavy arrows, fixed heads, high poundage, etc. Expandable BH's for DG AND PG were forbidden. The bowhunter mentioned by the OP apparently used an expandable BH, I'd assume his PH approved the choice. Too bad. African countries usually regulate what is a legal caliber for DG, ought to do something similar for archery gear. A number of expandable BH manufacturers "test" their products on African game using the results to convince bowhunters that the design is "the ticket." Safari operators who regularly outfit DG bowhunters need to come up with a standard as they are the experts. Expandables on buff ...... no way. | |||
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Ok Raven & Chuck. So why is a bowhunter who takes on Cape Buff with a bow (presuming all legal and ethical requirements are met)and has a PH with a rifle as backup a coward while you big, tough & brave 'ol boys are allowed a PH with a rifle as backup if you screw it up??? Some posters seem to think it's a question of masculinity whether you use a rifle or bow. Have you stopped to consider that maybe some hunters may use different methods because they simply prefer one method to another? I don't like the idea of hunting with hounds but my buddy thinks it's the best thing in the world. Am I more of a man than he, or does he have more testosterone than I? I wonder if handgun hunters or black powder enthusiasts are also cowards if they have a PH with a rifle as backup. Who is more "manly?" Maybe we should have a chart set up so all hunters on AR can select their preferred hunting method and immediately see where they rank on the chuck and raven masculinity scale. As a bow hunter I'm off to the bathroom to see if anything has shrunk or my liver has turned a shade of "lily". But hang on, I also have a big bore rifle....... maybe if I hunt a few times with that then my masculinity will be restored!! Nobody said it was easy pleasing the experts on AR! JCHB | |||
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JCHB, the interesting thing is that, a PH may have to finish a JOB, the gun totting hunters botch up,... PH may be responsible for the actions that prevented a wounded trophy animal being lost, and/or save a hunters life or two in the process. But when the animal goes in the record books, I bet its not the PH name that gets printed next to it. Its just a matter of who drew first blood/ payed for the whole performance that gets SCI recognition. If one wounds DG with a bow and it takes a PH rifle to finish it, its not recognised as being taken with his bow... Rifle hunter equally f*cks-up requiring same assistance from PH to finish it, and rifle hunter is still entitled to claim merit as being taken with his rifle....{WTF?} | |||
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Trax, Thank you for helping me to prove the majority of my points so easily by heading off on your usual tangent and bringing up all those absolutely irrelevant points. Before you ask and offload another truckload of manure, where does this come from? 'Not many folk would accuse fully professional ground troops as being "pseudo" soldiers, for using the convenience & tactical advantage of air support to start,continue or finish a task.' Are you once again trying to make me say things Trax? Who on this thread accused any soldiers, whether professional or otherwise, of being pseudo soldiers? What I suggest you do is smack your head against the wall, gain some perspective and then try and post something constructive. But being constructive is not really your objective, is it? Can you explain to me why exactly you want to tear into the last few existing regulations that prevent hunting from becoming a complete clown show? I mean we all know this is not the first time you have tried to rubbish long standing hunting laws. What exactly is your primary purpose here? Negativity it seems - always trying to find something wrong with what is right. Makes me wonder what your agenda is, who you actually are, sniping away from your anonymous corner.... Did someone mention cowardice? David Hulme | |||
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They weren't irrelevant points, you asked a question regarding the use of term "mandatory" that applies to both PH and pilots, and I answered it , to bad if you don't like the facts and answers. I did not "quote" or acuse you as saying that troops were pseudo. But your certainly say that about some hunters/shooters who use the assistance of aircraft alot less than soldiers do. Your telling me that I need to gain perspective?,..thats truly laughable!....You previously have said you know Africa and nothing else and probably more specifically just Zim, however this is an international forum, with people who greater perspective of what goes on in broader Africa and the world. You don't have to like those things, or be interested in those things,but there are other members here on AR that might be and don't mind that perspective being introduced. For being an acclaimed expert on Zim, you weren't very constructive when you posted rules & regs on Zim that had no clarification as to what they pertained to exactly, you either didn't know all the rules, or it suited you not to post them all to better support your argument with me. Piss weak either way. | |||
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Trax, Are you trying to literally compare hunting to combat? Heaven help us. This is an AFRICAN HUNTING FORUM in case you didn't notice, nothing in the title that I've noticed to suggest it is 'international' anything...I know it must be dark in the alley, but surely your screen lights up.... I am just going to post the link here from our last set to so that everyone can judge for themselves what was said and not said. http://forums.accuratereloadin...491011261#3491011261 I have never claimed to know all the hunting regs (no doubt you will try and latch on to that), but if I don't know something I find out. And post my findings or lack of them under my real name. At least my argument cannot be as piss weak as that of an anonymous poster, with, for all we know, zero African hunting experience. | |||
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African Hunting Forum indeed it is, Not a military forum, yet you tell us what advice you got from a combat veteran and applied when trudging across Africa as a non hunting unarmed civilian in a non-combat situation? now ask yourself your own question:
and look at your own post:
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Sigh....I was using the advice I got from the military man to try and explain feelings of bravery/fear, not hunting, please read it again. And again.... I now know how challenging it must be for a school teacher to try and get something across to an obnoxious child. | |||
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And I was using combat situations to describe/explain certain things also. was it really that difficult to recognise that obvious fact,...?...sigh.....  It appears you feel it ok for you to do so, but not anyone else.... You are a total hypocrite. | |||
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Now ask yourself this question: what am I trax doing on the African hunting forum when I actually think it's an international forum? And this one: if I trax am truly a hunter, with the values of hunting at heart, why am I trying to tear into all the principles/regulations of hunting and bring it into disrepute, by letting neutrals who could be influenced into appreciating the value of hunting see the dung I post on a public forum? Like condoning helicopter and vehicle hunting? Answer: because I trax am a shit stirrer with nothing of importance to contribute. | |||
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Its an international forum in the sense that contributions come from all over the world from people who travelled/hunted/experienced different parts of Africa and the world. If you think the AHF belongs only to those who have only hunted Africa, you need to expand your mind and perspective. You appear trapped in your micro-cosm Zim bubble, by all means stay there. the Owner of this AR forum condones hunting from vehicles, do you want to stay a participant on a site where the owner condones things you strongly disapprove of in hunting? | |||
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I will stay here thanks, I appreciate your permission to do so. | |||
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Yes I do, because I want Saeed to see the light too and stop condoning hunting from vehicles. In fact, he is the type of guy I hope to influence, not you. I also belong to a couple of predominantly anti hunting sites FYI. I try to keep an open mind in my little bubble. Would you like to comment on that? | |||
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Good luck! | |||
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And you are a total coward, as you delete some of your comments, add to others when already posted and try your utmost to change the tone of the argument, so that you can win it in your own mind. Anonymously. | |||
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You don't need luck when you're good, take a middle finger from me. | |||
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I may rearranged phrases and paragraphs to better clarify/express, but My views have not changed. Feel free to quote anything you like if you fear that I will delete or change them. You remain a hypocrite....and raise the finger bcause you cannot remain civil...but you consider yourself good?,...laughable. | |||
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My friend Richard Harland , who has more on the ground experience with buff and elephant than the COMBINED folks on this thread stated his opinion that " if you cannot stop a charge on an incoming beast with the weapon you are holding, you have no business opening up the game with it in the first place ! " You may not agree, but THAT is the voce of experience . Dave Fulson | |||
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____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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 Oh, wait a minute, the Yankees choked. | |||
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Oh my goodness! Hmmmm. This thread sure makes me glad I am a woman. Us girls don't feel the need to have to prove anything! BTW - GO TIGERS!  ~Ann   | |||
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I agree Dave! | |||
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