It isnt correct ,the hunter must go with a rifle to finnish his mess ,THIS KIND OF SITUATIONS ARE SPOILING BIG GAME .I have had many ,many troubles with bow hunters and water buffalos .

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
... According to the game ordinances in some provinces it is also 100% illegal to shoot any game from a vehicle unless you have a permit and the Ordinance doesn't differentiate between wounded and unwounded.I have yet to hear of a PH denying the client the opportunity to dispatch wounded game from a vehicle because the PH needs to get a permit to do so!
It would be interesting to hear what PHASA's view is

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
I'll hold off on commenting about the archery side of the discussion and the ethics there of as there will never be a consensus about backing up with rifles etc. One things for sure though is that if an archery kill is finished off with a rifle it is not in any way eligible for the SCI book. I had a friend guide a hunter to what would have been the new SCI No.1 leopard, unfortunately it was wounded and was killed in a charge (actually while chewing on the appy!). Everyone accepted that it was not a true archery kill and it was never entered as such.

In terms of using a chopper to dispatch wounded game i think that hunters should use any means that they have available to end an animals suffering. PH's wisely use vehicles to follow wounded lions and buffalo into long grass so i dont see the use of a chopper being any different? If it is available and it will assist in ending the life of a wounded animal quickly and cleanly then why not.

I have had a client pay for a chopper after a buffalo which was lightly wounded ran into a large thicket of sickle bush - for those of you that have hunted an area with sickle bush you will know that it can be impenetrable. Aside from literally crawling on your stomach there was no way that you could get in there and defintely had a a very slim chance of pulling off a shot. Buffalo however have no problem running through as if it is grass. Luckily there was a team doing game capture nearby and we brought in the chopper and got the buffalo fairly quickly; it then took us half a day to cut a road in to retrieve the buffalo and 3 punctures before we got out of the sickle bush. The alternative was to leave the animal and hope it died or leave it with a festering wound and the risk that it may blindside someone hunting on another occasion. I believe bringing in the chopper was 100% the right move.

Re: Using a Landcruizer or Chopper to follow,find and finishing off such wounded game.

Im sure some would say that shooting/finishing off the wounded DG from the Landcruizer is acceptable but not so from the Heli.
If ones uses a vehicle in order to better ensure safety of the group & quicker despatch of the wounded DG, then why would a Chopper which can make things even safer and quicker, be frowned apon?

How Safe or Dangerous does DG hunting have to be?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
if you think you are MAN enough to hunt cape with a bow.....
be MAN enough to finish the job!
Fn cowards

Precisely!

Never get yourself into something you are unwilling to finish.

There are rifle hunters/clients who find themselves willing but not being capable or "man" enough to finish a certain situation of snuffed shot.
Now if circumstances dictate that someone other than the client is faced with finding and finishing the animal, [i.e. PH on foot, in vehicle, or someone in a chopper- looking for wounded DG in long grass]

that makes the client a coward?...

OK I can see the need for RIFLES on the follow up of a Dangerous game animal shot with a bow.

IF I was the bow shooter I would want to do MY follow up with a bow, and hope to finish the deal with my bow...

If on aproach the animal charged and the PH had to shoot, then so be it...

IF it was aparent that MY bow could not close the deal, then I would switch to MY rifle...
And on the charge I would want to shoot first, and hopefully be the only shooter, but the PH must do what he is required/hired to do.
A Bow hunter should know all of this going in.

However the use of a helicopter, in any form or fashion is unacceptable to ME.

Not even for spotting, much for shooting the animal.

I will never watch another one of Babes hunting shows again.

They call it "Dangerous Game Hunting" for a reason.

If YOU as the hunter, are not prepared to accept ALL of the danger, then do not hunt DG.

But to use a helicopter in that situation...
He should be banned from hunting anywhere on the Planet, IMHO.

Go fishing instead.

Now let the record reflect, I do not have a problem with shooting wild pigs, in places where they are a BIG problem, from a Helicopter.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

However the use of a helicopter, in any form or fashion is unacceptable to ME.

Not even for spotting, much for shooting the animal.

They call it "Dangerous Game Hunting" for a reason.

If YOU as the hunter, are not prepared to accept ALL of the danger, then do not hunt DG.

Are you opposed to using a Landcriser to track & shoot wounded DG?

Using a Landcruizer would not be accepting ALL the danger of DG hunting correct? and technically, using a PH to help despatch an wounded animal is not accepting all the risk as a hunter either.


People who find they are not up to as much danger/thrill/risk as others may desire, can take the softer option when things go wrong, i.e; track & shoot wounded DG from vehicle or chopper.

...Just like those who are not as physically fit, can choose to walk less in Africa i.e. more use of vehicle to cover ground, look for tracks, and find animals,... and those with a major physically infirmity may shoot from Vehicles and near waterholes.

[though even the very physically fit will rely on vehicles and other modern devices[rangefinders,binocculars,GPS] to save foot slogging and time]

So,
-some clients are physically infirm and are catered to,
-some clients are mentally infirm and are catered to.
-some clients don't have all the skill & ability to solve every challenge or problem that arises, and rely on other resources i.e; other people and/or machines.

Some people use certain things to their advantage simply because it makes sound logistical sense.

If someone snuffs a shot on DG, Id rather hear they used mechanical means to their advantage to quickly find & despatch the animal, rather than hearing some dramatic war story of how they had to wait till the next day &/or fearfully searched the long grass for several hrs right up to failing light, to find & finish the beast.

My view is that it should be ones priority to fix ones hunting f*ck-up as quickly/sensibly/practically possible.

But for those "tough" DG hunters who oppose the Chopper, hopefully you would also refuse the services of aircraft in case of injury or snake bite, and instead tough it by being stretchered out by a slower process[vehicle or on foot]......

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

[QUOTE]"...I have been told that it is common for African hunting companies to host guest hunters that are so physically unsound that the only option is to hunt and shoot from the vehicle. These "disabled" hunters should be denied the passion of a safari because of their infirmity despite their obvious contribution of financial and moral support to the industry of African hunting?..."[QUOTE]

Good point.

I have hunted with two very good friends of mine, both have had heart problems, but enjoy hunting just like the rest of us.

On occasions, they shot from the vehicle, and sat by waterholes and killed some animals.

Who has the right to tell them not to do that?

How far are we going to go into this "ethics" business?

Come to think of it, if we carry this a bit further, why use any weapon at all?

Just chase the animal on foor and strangle it with your own bare hands.

I am a hunter. I use both bow and rifle although the former is my preference. I respect individual posters who comment that for them personally they would not hunt DG with a bow as they are entitled to their preference. However others who pass blanket comment do the industry and sport a disservice. DG animals can be taken cleanly with modern archery gear as has been proven over and over. However it takes a great deal of skill and physical strength to pull the poundages required. Maybe a little more than the average archer posseses. Having watched a lot of DG video footage, it does not seem to require the same level of skill to put one down with a rifle. Although I have hunted elephant with archery gear, I cannot claim to have shot one as the perfect shot opportunity has not presented itself. However I have absolutely no doubt that the equipment is up to the task. Three weeks ago my PH friend told me of a client who took on a giraffe with his .458. Multiple hits later it was still heading for the hills. That made me think of the two bulls that I have taken with archery gear which quickly succumbed to a single arrow apiece. Not DG, for sure, but right up there in terms of size and mass. Does that make a .458 unsuitable for giraffe? Of course not! Does that mean fellow hunters should disparage the use of .458's on giraffe? No! Commentators out there shot be aware of these things before flinging stones around in a glass house.
JCHB

Grumulkin-I have killed more than two hundred head of game with a bow and yes,I have had many bang-flop kills.I shoot a bow that is powerful enough that if I hit it in the neck it will break the neck and kill the deer in it's tracks. However,I do not routinely make neck shots and such a hit would only happen if I made a mistake.

I did not see this video.If the hunter did indeed use a mechanical broadhead he has already made one very serious mistake. Also, he quite likely was shooting arrows that were too light and he may well have been shooting a bow that was insufficient for the job. All one has to do is to watch a few episodes of the shows on the hunting channel to see example after example of these mistakes.

Juan- The buffalo I took with you was a clean pass through and one shot kill, was it not? Could not have been any more efficient if taken with a cannon.

Not everyone is able to shoot a bow well enough to get these kind of results.Too many people treat bow hunting and rifle hunting the same.Pick up their weapon of choice two weeks before the hunt and make sure it is sighted in well enough to hit a pie plate at twenty yards. Then go on the hunt of a lifetime.

There are threads on here regularly that talk about hunters that struggle to load their rifles, fumble with the safety, and shoot poorly when the time comes.Again, watch the TV shows and see examples.

Why do so many people want to single out bowhunters and hold them to a higher standard. My point is that there are unprepared and undergunned bowhunters out there, but in no lesser or greater percentage than unprepared and slob gun hunters.And there are many that are crossovers, and do a poor job with both types of equipment.

The topic of this thread was whether or not pursuing wounded game with a helicopter to deliver the Coup de Grace is taking the easy way out, or is not ethical? No need to make this about bow hunting.

JCHB-Excellent points.Lot's more eloquent than mine.

If I had muffed a shot, whether with a bow or gun,, would i choose to use a helicoptor to locate the animal if available. I probably would,, I would use it to locate but not shoot from..Following up a bad shot should be ones own responsibility if possible,, but I sure would appreciate knowing that a wounded dangerous game had circled us and was preparing to charge us from the rear! Why put trackers and others in harms way if there is a better way.It has never been a choice for me in the past because no choppers were even available.

Sunday I watched a Ph and hunter do a follow up on a wounded leopard from a vehicle,, I am sure many saw it on TV that post here on AR. Yes, both were making follow up shots from the elevated rack from the land cruiser. Probably much safer than walking in on foot,,,,Any issues with shooting off the truck for wounded game?

The issue here to me is whether using choppers or vehicles in follow ups is acceptable or not. The fact that the hunter was using a bow is secondary to me. Of course as a bow hunter,, i feel the guy was way out of his leaque and unprepared for his hunt,, an expandable braodhead on DG/,,crazy,,, was he on a "sponsored" hunt? I don't know. I do know that I would go with eyedoc on a DG hunt if he chose to take a bow. He does have the "equipment" to get the job done, he also would be in the gym everyday lifting weights, running, etc to be physically able to pull a 90 lb bow and he would be practicing daily with his bow,, just like we do before we gun hunt. I can't pull a 90 lb bow, rotator cuff surgery fixed that for me but I can pull 70,, not enough for DG so my 416 rigby will be in my hand,,,and hopefully I won't need a chopper.

eyedoc ,you are an expert bow hunter that shoots a bow everyday ,and i saw you to kill birds ,hogs ,hares,and capibaras with one shot in the heart ,unfourtunately YOU WERE THE ONLY BOWHUNTER that i saw to perform with such expertise in many years .YOU KILED YOUR BUFFALO WITH ONE ARROW but you are not the average bowhunter.

A sad stunt. Of course the buff can be killed by archery gear, but the VAST majority stuck with the arrow are killed with a bullet. I speak from much experience on this. Have nearly been stomped from buff wearing arrows, and talked to lots of PH's with like stories. And to finish it off by chopper, well that says a lot about that guy. A sorry thing all around.

quote:

Originally posted by drwes:


..Sunday I watched a Ph and hunter do a follow up on a wounded leopard from a vehicle,, I am sure many saw it on TV that post here on AR. Yes, both were making follow up shots from the elevated rack from the land cruiser. Probably much safer than walking in on foot,Any issues with shooting off the truck for wounded game?
..The issue here to me is whether using choppers or vehicles in follow ups is acceptable or not.

If one uses a vehicle to gain advantage[safety,clearer view perspective,better shot placement] then why deny someone the choice [or condemn them for choosing] to use a chopper which may offer greater advantage?
No doubt some folk disagree with using vehiclechopper under any/all circumstance, others will accept them for locating/spotting alone, others for both locating and shooting from.

Some make out that going for DG is some kind of battle between man and beast,.. most sensible tactical minded people going into battle seek swift victory whilst trying to minimise danger/risk of loss...and use whats available to their advantage and/or their opponents disadvantage, to achieve such path to victory.

Some who would prefer to prove their manhood and hunting prowess may use methods that result in a situation where a loose unlocated injured & enraged beast is roaming around for much longer,......others might be deemed more responsible,sensible and ethical[or unethical] for using methods that allow more rapid location and despatch of the animal,with less risk to people involved.

as I asked before:
-How safe or dangerous does DG hunting have to be? ...and to personally satisfy who exactly?
-How do you determine if a method or procedure demonstrates being safe/sensible, irresponsible/stupid or cowardly?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
A sad stunt. Of course the buff can be killed by archery gear,

and of course Buff can be killed with bullets,been proven many times, so why do people go on trying to prove it?

but the VAST majority stuck with the arrow are killed with a bullet. I speak from much experience on this. Have nearly been stomped from buff wearing arrows, and talked to lots of PH's with like stories.

and people have been near stomped [and actually stomped] by DG/Buff carrying [sometimes many] bullets
people continue to get injured or killed hunting DG using either bow or rifle,yes, its a potentially dangerous sport.
How challenging & dangerous one prefers their experience to be, should be determined by who & what exactly?

And to finish it off by chopper, well that says a lot about that guy. A sorry thing all around.

I gather the reason some prefer people use a particular type of weapon/method [ie;rifle] is for better likelyhood of executing a quick kill, for a safer,more quickly concluded DG-hunt, correct?
But in the event of a botched shot some would recommend a method of pursuit[on wounded DG] that is more lengthy & risky/dangerous than another available method.

ie;

Be sensible;select rifle over bow for a safer DG-hunt, but use a method of persuite on wounded DG, that adopts more of a foolhardy/daring approach that focuses more on proving manhood/lack of cowardice... and less on personal safety.....seems sorta contradictory or.. ....

I think some people should confine their hunting to "dangerous rabbits" or do their "dangerous" game "hunting" from behind a stiff high wire fence ... if they feel using a helicopter to shoot a wounded buffalo is acceptable.

"Bow hunting" while using a rifle for back up is a joke and is done probably most of the time to get an animal in the record books using a less common method so the ranking is higher. I'll bet that there would be a LOT fewer "bow hunters" of dangerous game if they had to do it with no firearm backup for their animal to make it to the record books.

As for the helicopter; that's a joke as well. The buffalo to them is just cattle. Perhaps the so called bow hunter wanted his trophy illy gained but I suspect the hunt purveyors also wanted to get the buffalo meat to sell. So, I don't think it unethical to kill a buffalo that way but it's unethical to call it a bow kill. Also, if I want to "hunt" that way, for much lower cost and close to no risk I can kill a cow in Ohio.

Grumulkin, please explain in view of your statement that bow hunting with a rifle as backup is a joke, why rifle hunting with a rifle as backup is not a joke?
JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
Grumulkin, please explain in view of your statement that bow hunting with a rifle as backup is a joke, why rifle hunting with a rifle as backup is not a joke?
JCHB

Because when it comes to Dangerous Game, rifle hunting with a rifle backup is not claiming to be something that it is not! And again, I am a bow hunter!

In the US, where it is legal, I do all of my bowhunting without a rifle back-up. Including bears, which is the nearest we have to DG. As stated here previously, It is nearly impossible, if it is possible at all, for a foreign hunter to hunt alone in most of Africa.RSA says visiting hunters have to be accompanied by a PH even for PG. Namibia does not allow DG hunting with a bow at all.

I personally would love the challenge. Many others would as well. The problem that would arise is that many who weren't properly prepared to do so, would try, and end up getting their ticket punched.This is bad for business and the reason it is prohibited.

I had seen a short video of Babe Winkleman after he had shot a whitetail. He walked up to it, told his guide to dress it out because that was what he was paid to do. Then he walked away. What a shithead! I won't watch his show.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
Grumulkin, please explain in view of your statement that bow hunting with a rifle as backup is a joke, why rifle hunting with a rifle as backup is not a joke?
JCHB

Because when it comes to Dangerous Game, rifle hunting with a rifle backup is not claiming to be something that it is not! And again, I am a bow hunter!

Scenario- client shoots DG with .375hh at close range, good hit but fails to anchor it resulting in charge, PH steps in to quickly "SToP iT" at their feet with his .577 nitro.

Scenario- Bowhunter hits DG in good spot, but fails to anchor it resulting in charge, again, PH with BigBore is required to take care of the matter in similar fashion.

One is permitted in the records books, the other isn't.

If some expect a bow hunter to be backed up with nothing more than PH with another bow,.. why do they not expect a guy hunting DG with jack of all trades .375, to be backed up with nothing more than PH with same?

In both cases the client was not able to personally close the deal with DG using their weapon of choice,... each requiring critical assistance from another more experienced person with more powerful/more capable/"more Effective" weapon.

Neither Bow Hunter or Rifle Hunter can honestly claim they are directly responsible for their survival and a successful kill.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
Grumulkin, please explain in view of your statement that bow hunting with a rifle as backup is a joke, why rifle hunting with a rifle as backup is not a joke?
JCHB

Because when it comes to Dangerous Game, rifle hunting with a rifle backup is not claiming to be something that it is not! And again, I am a bow hunter!

Scenario- client shoots DG with .375hh at close range, good hit but fails to anchor it resulting in charge, PH steps in to quickly "SToP iT" with his .577 nitro.

Scenario- Bowhunter hits DG in good spot, but fails to anchor it resulting in charge, again, PH with BigBore is required to take care of the matter.

One is permitted in the records books, the other isn't.

In both cases the client was not able to personally close the deal with DG using their weapon of choice,... each requiring same assistance from another more experienced person with more powerful/more capable weapon.

If some expect a bow hunter to be backed up with nothing more than PH with another bow,.. why do they not expect a guy hunting DG with jack of all trades .375 to be backed up with nothing more than PH with same?

Actually Trax, it really doesn't matter to me. Especially when you are talking about the record books. I couldn't care less about the "Record Books". But that is just me. Like I said, I like to bow hunt also but the reason I do is because it allows me more time in the field as here in Texas, bow season opens about 1 month earlier for deer.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make concerning the caliber of back up vs the PH backing up with a bow / rifle. Doesn't make sense to me. About the only analogy I can make is that if hunting Whitetail Deer during the bow season, you happen to hit a deer a bit far back. While tracking it, you spot him say 150 yards out. Because it is the "Archery" season, you can't break out the 270 and finish him off. It is supposed to be an archery hunt so the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department expects you to conduct it with archery tackle.

Again, to me, I don't care. I think a person should hunt with whatever weapon they like as long as it is legal. I just choose to do it my way, for me, and for me alone. If I choose to use a bow during the rifle season for the added challenge and the same wounding scenario occurred, it would then be legal to finish him with the rifle. But in that scenario, I wouldn't tell myself or anyone else for that matter that it was a bow kill just because the stick and string drew first blood.

I'm not trying to justify my choices to anyone. Isn't necessary as far as I'm concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Again, to me, I don't care. I think a person should hunt with whatever weapon they like as long as it is legal. I just choose to do it my way, for me, and for me alone. If I choose to use a bow during the rifle season for the added challenge and the same wounding scenario occurred, it would then be legal to finish him with the rifle. But in that scenario, I wouldn't tell myself or anyone else for that matter that it was a bow kill just because the stick and string drew first blood.

On the same principle,

In cases where the client was not able to personally close the deal with DG using their weapon of choice [bow or rifle],... requiring critical assistance from another more experienced person with more powerful/more capable/"more Effective" weapon.[ie; PH with big bore stopper] to ensure their safety/survival and an effective kill/successful hunt,
...Neither Bow Hunter or Rifle Hunter can honestly claim they are directly responsible(take credit), just because they drew first blood.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
In the US, where it is legal, I do all of my bowhunting without a rifle back-up. Including bears,

Please do not get me wrong for I am not questioning your bravery. I am curious as to the method you use to bow hunt bears,black and grizzly.Do you hunt them from a stand/tree top or on foot?Thanks.

Best-
Locksley,R.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
Grumulkin, please explain in view of your statement that bow hunting with a rifle as backup is a joke, why rifle hunting with a rifle as backup is not a joke?
JCHB

Because when it comes to Dangerous Game, rifle hunting with a rifle backup is not claiming to be something that it is not! And again, I am a bow hunter!

Precisely.

IMO, the record books are very flawed in this regard. The placement of the animal and thus the hunter in a different classification based on method of take is silly.
Personally, I would like simply to see the animal, the year it was taken, and the area from which it was taken. Nothing more unless it was of particular note such as a maneater or the hunter was of a special status. It should not matter whether it was taken by rifle, bow, motorcar, wolf pack, poison arrow, starvation or flood. It is the animal that is being judged!
The hunter has nothing to do with the dimensions of the animal at all. You don't see the parents of the tallest man on Earth in the record books, do you?

I have a huge problem with this, being a helicopter pilot. Killing game from a Helicopter is just plain wrong. He hit the Animal, they should have gone in finished it, if not pay the fee and move on. Do helicopter have a place in Hunting, yes they do, it came be the best mode of transport in come cases, and to get downed game out of the field and to a Cooler, to preserve meat quality. Now I have not problem with shooting feral animals like pigs or to control some predators like wolves from aircraft those things have to be done from time to time. Shooting a fine game animal like a Cape Buffalo because you are not skillful enough with your sighed compound bow well what are you doing hunting Cape Buffalo anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by George Semel:
I have a huge problem with this, being a helicopter pilot. Killing game from a Helicopter is just plain wrong. He hit the Animal, they should have gone in finished it, if not pay the fee and move on. Do helicopter have a place in Hunting, yes they do, it came be the best mode of transport in come cases, and to get downed game out of the field and to a Cooler, to preserve meat quality. Now I have not problem with shooting feral animals like pigs or to control some predators like wolves from aircraft those things have to be done from time to time. Shooting a fine game animal like a Cape Buffalo because you are not skillful enough with your sighed compound bow well what are you doing hunting Cape Buffalo anyway?

George ,
I'm also a Heli pilot,i would strongly favor using such to despatch wounded DG in difficult situations, rather than leaving wounded DG in long grass and simply paying the trophy fee for a lost animal.
Rifle hunters[just like bow hunters] also have wounded DG ending up in difficult long grass....Do you suggest those insufficiently skilled rifle hunters also have no business hunting Buff?

quote:

Rifle hunters[just like bow hunters] also have wounded DG ending up in difficult long grass....Do you suggest those insufficiently skilled rifle hunters also have no business hunting Buff?

It is up to the PH to earn his keep and do what he is paid for: Clean up the mess !

If he is incapable or doesn't have the balls to do it he should find another profession.

The use of a helicopter is BS as is the use of a vehicle !

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Rifle hunters[just like bow hunters] also have wounded DG ending up in difficult long grass....Do you suggest those insufficiently skilled rifle hunters also have no business hunting Buff?

It is up to the PH to earn his keep and do what he is paid for: Clean up the mess !

If he is incapable or doesn't have the balls to do it he should find another profession.

The use of a helicopter is BS as is the use of a vehicle !

cause the PH proved either unwilling, unable or incapable of stopping the beast,...and either unwilling,unable, or incapable of finding and finishing the beast,
using the Heli to finish the job ASAP [which should be priority], seems acceptable-ethical under such circumstances.

Whatever anyone's personal feelings are regarding all this, the truth is that there are some people out there who should be banned from hunting for life. Don't think it's only the antis who have their crazies, if you look around you will find another type of fanatic lurking right here, on this site. Far removed from the extremist greenies, but just as crazy. Hunting and conservation is an extremely sensitive topic and right now there are guys putting in a concerted effort to bridge the gap between non hunters and hunters. Let me assure you that our own crazies are just as much of a hindrance to progression as theirs.

David

But let me give you my personal opinion anyway. The PH in this instance should consider becoming a pilot or something because he doesn't have what it takes to be a PH. I wonder how much misinformation half-assed PH's shovel down the ear canals of visiting hunters annually? A great deal of it, for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
But let me give you my personal opinion anyway. The PH in this instance should consider becoming a pilot or something because he doesn't have what it takes to be a PH. I wonder how much misinformation half-assed PH's shovel down the ear canals of visiting hunters annually? A great deal of it, for sure.

I would not recommend that PH become a pilot. Pilot tasks & responsibilities are much more complex & demanding overall.
Keep these things in mind;
- getting up in the air is optional, once up, coming down is absolutely mandatory - Every landing in an aircraft is a controlled crash.

Clearly, retrieving every stray wounded DG animal is not mandatory for a PH. Nor do peoples lives always hang in the balance when a PH doesn't successfully retrieve.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
The PH in this instance should consider becoming a pilot or something because he doesn't have what it takes to be a PH.

Come on now David, don't go there! You and I are online friends and in agreement on most things but I can tell you that flying FA-18's off of aircraft carriers, into combat, at night, and in bad weather is one hell of a lot more dangerous than any hunt I've ever been on or will ever go on! Not to mention that all the complexities associated with planning, leading, and executing a 35 aircraft combat strike, including coordinating tanker operations with other service branches in a multinational force, deconflicting airspace issues, and among other things getting back to the ship, meeting push times in order to begin an instrument approach culminating in landing onboard the ship within the 45 second time slot between aircraft recoveries so as not to arrive with a "foul deck", and then actually putting that bitch down safely on the boat, etc, etc... Well lets just say that we go DG hunting for relaxation!

Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
But let me give you my personal opinion anyway. The PH in this instance should consider becoming a pilot or something because he doesn't have what it takes to be a PH. I wonder how much misinformation half-assed PH's shovel down the ear canals of visiting hunters annually? A great deal of it, for sure.

I would not recommend that PH become a pilot. Pilot tasks & responsibilities are much more complex & demanding overall.
Keep these things in mind;
- getting up in the air is optional, once up, coming down is absolutely mandatory - Every landing in an aircraft is a controlled crash.

Clearly, retrieving every stray wounded DG animal is not mandatory for a PH. Nor do peoples lives always hang in the balance when a PH doesn't successfully retrieve.

What do you mean it is not mandatory for a PH to retrieve every 'stray(WTF?) wounded DG animal? Are you now making the rules? Heaven forbid. There's a bit of your own medicine son, I know you hate to take it.

People's lives do not hang in the balance when a PH does not successfully retrieve a wounded duiker, for sure, but people's lives ALWAYS hang in the balance when a wounded DG game animal is not retrieved, until that animal dies or recovers fully. Surely you don't need this explained to you? Why do you think it is referred to as dangerous game?

I speak for Zimbabwe and various Zim operators and professionals and let me assure you that for those dwindling few IT IS mandatory to retrieve every wounded animal, whether lion or rabbit. Occasionally they fail, but the vast majority of the time they kill the wounded animal, and they don't need a helicopter to do it either.

Todd, I am surprised you take my words 'should consider becoming a pilot or something' literally, especially since the 'something' was added to ensure people understood the spirit in which the statement was made. There was a heavy dose of sarcasm injected into the comment. I have friends who are chopper pilots - game capture and crop spraying which I think you'll agree is up there - and I have nothing but respect for their abilities in the air. And yes, I have been up a number of times with them, low level jinxing about and skimming the tops of mopani trees, rounding up herds of animals. Doesn't mean they are competent PH's....Each and every one of those guys, if I asked them, would undoubtedly agree that flying, hunting, accountancy, should be left to those who know best, those who are trained to do the job. One of my very best friends, Barry Style, is both a highly competent pilot and PH. I will ask him if he thinks this joker of a PH should be a PH, a pilot or a hamburger vendor....

The point I was trying to make is that do what you do and do it to the best of your ability. I am a writer, if I wounded a buffalo I would call an experienced PH to help me, without hesitation. If he suggested we bring in a helicopter to help, I would tell him to foxtrot oscar. If nobody was prepared to help without a helicopter, I would go and sort out the fight I started, on my feet. Of course, that comment will be taken with a pinch of salt, considered tough talk by many, no doubt. But I say it without an ounce of bravado/machismo bullshit, I was once taught by a highly experienced combat veteran that it is fear which will keep me alive. There is a big difference between fear and cowardice. The useful soldier is the one that finds cover and uses his ammunition constructively, not the one who charges the enemy trenches firing wildly...
Fear/respect/caution, whatever you want to call it kept me alive for 6 months as I walked the distance of Zim's Zambezi valley, from Vic Falls to Kanyemba, through some of this country's most densely populated DG areas. I walked unarmed and I didn't catch a ride on a helicopter. Do I consider myself a tough guy? On the contrary, I just know I have done things right so far, as I was taught.

This not about how tough or brave someone is, it is about doing their job, the way they were taught to.

But this helicopter coup de grace bullshit coming out of SA is really no surprise, what does anyone expect when the requirements for becoming a PH consist of attending a 2 week course? Before some other sensitive souls get on their high horses, this is not a general condemnation of SA hunting or SA PH's, some of whom I have a great deal of respect for. I support all hunting done in the manner hunting is supposed be done, in SA or anywhere else, as my comments in the hunt report section prove. Of course, there will be those like Trax who will never let a comment from anyone who encourages ethical hunting pass without piping up from what we can only assume must be a highly experienced DG hunting position, but fortunately most here are mature and experienced enough to know the fundamentals of right and wrong. I can almost see the whining response to this 'But why should we listen to you, why should you deem what is right and wrong, why can't we hunt by helicopter....' Do what you like elsewhere Trax, and encourage as many other pseudo hunters you want to do the same. But 'elsewhere' is the operative word here. Do yourself a favor and don't consider helicopter hunting/retrieving on my turf, or hunting from a vehicle, which I have warned you about before. Because I will see you brought to book if you try that, my word. A stint in Chikurubi maximum security prison would be first prize, but failing that I will get some of my ethical hunting/law enforcement buddies in the US to hunt you down, maybe with a helicopter, that should give you a bit of a thrill...

I hereby declare open season on all those who go out of their way to tarnish the image of our tradition, whether they try to pass themselves off as hunters or whether they are crazy greenies. They are all enemy, just attacking from different fronts.

I have not been spending much time on AR lately, because I am getting a bit tired of explaining right and wrong to adults. As already stated, most here understand the fundamentals so what I am essentially doing is trying to talk sense to a few extremists who will never be converted, just like the anti hunting fanatics will never be converted. I have been spending time with a non hunting conservation group the last couple of weeks, trying to mobilize the moderates who are the only group of people who have a chance of making a difference, whether hunters or non hunters. I feel that it is more use to conservation efforts in general to get these people onsides, than to carry on bashing my head against a few empty vessels here. The hollow sound is beginning to irritate me.

Todd my buddy, I meant you no disrespect as a pilot or anything else. I think you know that. And as many on this site know I have the utmost respect for the US armed forces, on the ground and in the air. US chopper/jet combat pilots in Vietnam and elsewhere rank very high on my list of men to respect. As do Rhodesian fireforce chopper pilots, a few of whom are good friends of mine...I am sorry my comment didn't come across the way it was intended, I don't see how anybody can disrespect a combat pilot actually...

Have a glad day, I am off to my greenie group, there are more women there anyway....

David

Well said sir....

troy

Hey David, no worries bud. I was just yanking your chain a bit. It was just too easy to respond as a smart ass!

I'm with you on this however in that I don't like the helicopter business here but I actually have a bit of a story that relates to it. In 09, my son and I hunted buffalo cows in SA. Obviously, it was a ranch hunt and therefore NOTHING like a true hunt in the valley or other wild place.

This ranch adjoins the Kruger park but does have the fence in place. If I remember correctly, it was 11,000 acres. The ranch had recently been sold to a group who were building luxury homes and lodges on large tracts within the fence. The owners wanted to reduce the buffalo numbers to around 25 animals so they sold off the right to "hunt" the remaining animals. Much easier said than done as the buff were so wild that just getting a glimpse of them was an accomplishment, much less getting a shot.

Long story longer, it took us 6 full days of chasing them around until my son got a shot. For what it was, it was a pretty good time, I have to admit. But the relevant part is that the PH told me before we got started and I had to sign a contract stating that if a buff was wounded and it was determined to be unrecoverable prior to darkness, the ranch had the right to bring in a helicopter to sort it out at my expense.

From that I told my son to expect me to back him up immediately upon his shot as I didn't want to pay for a helicopter. I have to admit that I didn't really think much about it being unethical at the time as much as it was a safety issue that would be taken out of my hands inorder to not have a wounded dangerous animal around overnight with workers present on the ranch.

Luckily it never got to that as he got the cow cleanly, albiet with 2 extra 570 TSX rounds to boot from my 500 NE! As I said, this type of "hunting" is so different from hunting buffalo in the Zambezi Valley that I'm not sure a proper comparison can be made. Had the situation been taken away from me and a helicopter brought in, I would not have liked it at all but as hard as it was to find the herd on that ranch, and it was VERY hard to find them and get a shot as they were exceptionally spooky, I understand the position they took to ensure safety.

I've got no real interest in doing that type of hunt again but it was an inexpensive way for my son to get a taste of DG hunting. My younger son has now gotten that same taste but by shooting a wild buff in Makuti for my leopard bait.

I was supposed to take him back to SA this December to let him have a ranch hunt for plains game as I try to keep things equal between my boys. The older one has shot quite a bit of plains game on 2 trips, the younger not so much because of the difference in the hunt types. But after hunting Zim, both he and I agreed that we just aren't interested in the SA ranch hunts anymore. Not putting SA hunting down, I'm really not, as it is fun and relatively inexpensive, but it just doesn't interest me anymore.

So looking back on it, I still don't know if I consider the possibility of the helicopter on our hunt as unethical, but it would have been distasteful, at least to me. I think it's obvious that certain concessions are made when hunting SA. Those concessions are more pronounced when hunting DG within SA.

Todd,

I guess you have just described more of a 'control' hunt with your son's buffalo in SA. Almost a culling situation - they wanted to thin the herd, for whatever reason, kill some really wild buffalo as quickly and efficiently as possible...I still don't like the helicopter deal, but I do think PAC, herd control, culling is far removed from hunting. I don't want to detract from your son's first buffalo experience - some of my most memorable in field experiences come from PAC/culling operations - but as you have pointed out, the game farm deal is far removed from the real deal. I shot hundreds of impala at night, from a vehicle with not 1 but 2 spotlights when I was a teenager. We used to shoot 1000 a year (over a 3 week period)on a 80000 acre property, simply because there were far too many. During the cattle days. I fast grew out of it, but cannot deny I had a heap of fun doing it...But I know it wasn't hunting. I have also hunted impala rams, all alone in the woods, sneaking along, checking the wind every once in a while, spooking a small bachelor herd on approach and irritating myself in the process...Sitting down for twenty minutes to have a smoke and a drink of water, then setting off again, after the bachelor herd or back to base/vehicle. Now that is hunting. IMO, of course.

What would you do now Todd, if the helicopter was part of the deal?

Relieved I didn't piss you off too much fighter pilot!

Cheers, David

No man, you didn't piss me off at all. Like I said, it was just too easy to be a smart ass!

Well like I mentioned, I think I've moved on from the ranch hunts. Again, not that I have anything against them as I think they are a great way to get a glimpse of African hunting without breaking the bank. Here in TX, we are accustomed to hunting high fenced properties so I don't have an issue with it. Put simply, and this is for me and only me, I have more fun hunting the wilderness areas.

Just for the record, I too have no problem with ranch, fenced hunting, I think it is great fun. I used to manage a 10000 acre highveld game farm along with a big tobacco setup for a time, and the hunting I enjoyed there is still fresh in my mind....