The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting TV Ph's, do you cringe when................Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| TV Ph's, do you cringe when................ | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
They must be very quiet girls - how lucky their future husbands will be  | |||
|
one of us |
Matt, Mac here! I'm not saying that any or all of the so-called safety "FIXES" listed in this thread are totally wrong! What I am saying, however, is everyone here seems to be forgetting the first rule of safe gun handling, and that is: Never point the rifle at anything you don't want to shoot, anything you do in addition to that is a plus! There is nothing wrong in stacking all the other things on top of that GOLDEN RULE, but let's not forget that ONE before all the rest! You asked ZIM but what I see wrong with the partially open bolt on a loaded chamber! IMO, this may be safe to avoid shooting someone by accidentally pulling a trigger, but also may be very unsafe for you if you fall and the bolt opens just enough to let the round fall out of the rifle without you noticing it, and bolt then closed on an empty chamber when you need it quickly, or accidentally closing and firing when you fall. Admittedly this is far more likely with a PUSH FEED rifle, and far less so with a true CRF rifle, but half the hunters, and PHs I see today do not understand the REAL difference between the two types of actions, and half of them do not know they are using a PF rifle, or the ramifications of that choice. Most think the difference is a large extractor claw, but that is not the difference! The difference between the two is CARTRIDGE CONTROL! Once the round leaves the magazine in a CRF action the cartridge is controlled by the bolt till it is chambered and fired or is ejected from the rifle unfired. With this type action your “partially lifted bolt” makes some sense, but not with a PF action, which is what most bolt rifles are today. So what I’m saying here is the blanket approval of this way of making a bolt rifle safe is not a very good idea with all bolt rifles! In the USA we have thousands of deer hunters who hunt from tree stands, and I would say a full 85% of those hunters use PF rifles. In a tree stand it is common to load the chamber after getting secure in the tree stand. In many cases the rifle is positioned butt down, and the bolt is worked very slowly to avoid noise. With the PF rifle being loaded in this position the cartridge falls out of the rifle as soon as it breaks free of the magazine, without the hunter realizing it, falling to the ground beneath the stand. When a deer comes along the rifles firing pin falls on an empty chamber. This is because the bolt did not have CONTROL of the cartridge! The CRF would have control of the cartridge and would have chambered the round! At least if you go with the unloaded chamber, bolt closed, safety off, till you need to shoot, you are definitely aware of the rifle's condition, and the rounds are secure in the magazine. The rifle can be chambered at the last minute and then use the safety and muzzle control for the final approach in the last seconds! PS: With the traditional double rifle we are at a disadvantage because if the rifle is loaded it must rely on the safety and muzzle control to avoid a mishap! This is where the K-double has something better! The rifle can be carried fully loaded and completely un-cocked tumbler springs with nothing to drive the tumblers forward to hit the firing pins. This definitely a plus where safety is concerned. This also applies to the Blaser S-2 double rifle as far as being safe against an accidental discharge! HOWEVER the advantage is negated by the fact that the rifle has to be manually cocked after the breech is opened for any reason, and that is not the case with the Krieghoff double rifle. Once the K-gun is cocked it will remain cocked if opened before firing, and will re-cock it’s self automatically if fired, and opened for a re-load. So safety has two sides #1 to avoid an accidental discharge hitting someone in the hunting party, and #2 the rifle to operate with as little gadgetry that may be forgotten in the middle of a fight ................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
|
| one of us |
Saeed, If my PH tells me to chamber a round, I do. But I never assume he wants me to. I would rather have the PH looking for game than being worried I am going to put a round up his butt. You have the advantage of being well known and well experienced. I would imagine most PHs don't know most of their clients, at least not right away. | |||
|
One of Us |
Agree absolutely. Having been a firearms safety instructor for over 30 years, carrying a bolt action with one in the chamber and the bolt handle up is the safest option, "half open bolt in a state of semi readiness" is what we call it and how we teach it. Obviously for other types of action our state of semi readiness is with the firearm loaded and a pre-tested safety catch on. For serious hunting and certainly in Africa and on dangerous game in Oz and Africa the bolt action rules so our half open bolt is the option. In my experience having taken other hunters out for our game, and where a shot has been imminent and the bolt was closed and the safety applied, quite often when the shot is to be taken the safety is left on. There are a range of safety catches on firearms, many work quite different than others and in the heat of the moment hunters can get it wrong. A bolt up on any bolt action is easy to remember and see, very safe and very quick to bring to fire and easier to quietly close than most safeties are to dis-engage. The 'safest' safeties are those that lock the firing pin on the bolt and most of these require thumb and finger to disengage quietly if up close to an unsuspecting animal The African carry to me is a rather silly way to carry any firearm. If you want the firearm to be ready when carrying like this you do have to have a round chambered and safety on and then every direction you turn the muzzle points to all and sundry. Imagine a trip and fall with the rifle up over the shoulder! For me bolt up always, I want to live for many other hunts. | |||
|
One of Us |
I KNEW there was some reason I never actually wanted to hunt in NZ or Aust. I would imagine that all the custom rifles produced by NZ gunsmith's remove the safety before selling them as they are so unsafe. I look at all the wasted machine time and material and labor costs for every rifle I have ever seen or read about that had a safety. Just think of the additional improvements these designers could have made if they didn't have to mess around designing that pesyky totally unrelieable safety device. I'm sorry I was instructed from youth to always be sure where the muzzle pointed and to keep your finger off the trigger till ready to shoot and to have just kept the bolt open. Don't know what my father could have possibly been thinking about. Must have just been that lousy Marine training my father got back in the 1930's. Old fashioned thinking. Funny thing though that was the same training I got when I was in the service in the 1950's. Oh well just shows how far behind the US is in gun handling. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes and you all continually run scared of lawyers and law suits. You're welcome. | |||
|
| one of us |
Gentlemen, there is nothing wrong with differing opinions on anything pertaining to any firearm, or attachments there to! However there is also nothing wrong with the countries of New Zealand, Australia, or the USA, so I, for one, don’t see the need to insult anyones country here for their beliefs on gun handling! I think that is counter productive! My way is mine, and their ways is theirs, and the country they come from has nothing to do with it IMO! .................. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes I understand all that about the controlled feed guns... of course they are better for this. Bolt-up is not without its failings - you do need to monitor the bolt and you can only do it when you are stalking/hunting with rifle in hand ready to shoot ... not slung or otherwise. Yes muzzle control is paramount... no question there... but it should not be relied upon for absolute safety because others will be the ones making the (potential deadly) mistakes. Yes... you can control your own muzzle 100% of the time but you cannot control others!! That is why it is wrong to presume that if others simply do not point their firearms at you - that you will be safe!! Absolute safety in my book is muzzle control + awareness of and management of the status of firearms that are within my vicinity!! Well you can take it personally if you like and rant and rave - or you can look at our criticism of having absolute faith in 'safety' catches in an objective way. You critiscised our method and then backed it up with NOTHING. It is NOT about the (majority of) safety catches themselves ... it is how they are used that is the problem. I see it all the time... Now I do use safety catches myself when it is needed (double guns etc) but on a bolt-up scenario for bolt actions is what is prefer in the field... for good reason. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
|
| One of Us |
My last comment on the thread. The writers from NZ/Aus made the statement that that was the way it was taught in their country for years and I was merely taking them at their word. And I will be very happy to NOT hunt with any of them at any time. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ah zimbabwe I'm sure this is not your last comment on the subject. Going back to JCS271's original post where he quite rightly questioned as he saw it the issue of carrying fully loaded firearms during the stalking of African game in party with a PH or two and the trackers and scouts etc. Who knows what the accident statistics are for African safari hunting but in most countries in the world where hunting takes place there are accidents, some of which will involve accidential discharge of a firearm. Is it not by chance that most of the USA gunmakers now engrave warnings all over their firearms espousing the graveness of not reading the instruction manual and not following safe practice in firearm handling? Is it not also by chance that most factory firearms especially those coming out under a USA brand name have such heavy creepy triggers that all require owner or gunsmith adjusting, or a replacement trigger, to obtain a good light clean breaking trigger? What brand of firearms have featured in recalls and lawsuits because of issues with safeties being used, the trigger being pulled at some stage during carry, and then the firearm has discharged when the safety was released. I don't recall these being Mausers or Brnos, etc? By the way my deer hunting rifle at the moment is a Marlin, My son has my Remington 700, my 404 is a Mauser, I've enjoyed using Winchesters and Rugers as well as many European and English made firearms. I like the USA made or designed firearms. All have different safety catches, the Mauser probably the safest but the most difficult to use especially with a scope, but I do not rely on any of them, bolt up and carry in hand with the muzzle always pointed in a safe direction. I see, you see, the PH see's, no accidents. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, I had a very sobering reminder of muzzle control and safety two weekends ago. I went deer hunting with 3 buddies of mine. During the day, one of my buddies had seen a coyote and tried to get a shot off. He aimed at it and pulled the trigger, but nothing happened. he tried again and again, nothing happened. He cycled the bolt, ejected the shell, and then put another one in the chamber. pulled the trigger and it went off (missed the yote of course!). At the end of the day's hunt, in fading light, we all met up at the rally point and were getting ready to hike out from our hunting area. We were unloading our rifles. I had mine unloaded and attached to my pack, and I was looking at and talking to the buddy who had taken the shot at the Coyote as he was unloading his rifle. He was standing, and had the rifle butt resting on his right leg with the barrel in the air at a 45 degree angle. He tried to open the bolt but it would not open as he had the safety on and the bolt is locked by the safety. This part is very important: his left hand was around the grip, and all fingers were BEHIND the trigger guard. With his right hand, he slipped the safety off, and as he did so, the rifle fired into the air! We were all speechless. No part of his body was touching the trigger. Infact, the recoil pushed the rear of the trigger guard into his finger and scuffed it up a bit. Praise God he was following good safety procedures and had the barrel pointed in a safe direction - as he always does. I am not sure of the model of rifle, but it is a Savage Accu-trigger/Accustock rifle in 30.06 Springfield. He called Savage and is sending it in for a full inspection. I have heard of this happening with some Remington Model 700's prior to the X trigger, but I have not heard of the accutrigger Savages having this issue. My buddy is pretty religious about keeping the rifle clean so I don't forsee any issues there (unless something got into the action while we were hunting but the weather was nice.). All's well that ends well, but this was a sobering reminder that rifle safeties are mechanical devices that fail and the most important safety feature is your brain! | |||
|
| one of us |
This is the first I've heard of this happening with a Savage rifle, but the Remington 700s are notorious for this type of accidental discharge! Thers have been several law suits brought on the 700 Remington one for wrongfull death where a mother shot her teen age son when the rifle fired on openning of the bolt of a 700. It is quite evident she didn't follow the golden rule on where to point the rifle, but that doesn't excuse Remington for the mecahanical accidental discharge. I have personally witnessed a discharge on a new 700 when the safety was moved to the off position! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| one of us |
If you adjust the Remington trigger so it is very light (barely any sear engagement) you can get the rifle to fire every time by taking the safety off if you finger is just touching the trigger. I have never had one discharge by simply taking it off safe (without my finger touching the trigger), and I have owned a lot of them. | |||
|
| one of us |
I also own three mod 700s that belonged to my father, and my father has been dead since 1980, so these are old rifles but new when I got them because my father always hunted with his FN Mauser 30-06, and only shot the 700s he had gotten in trade, to zero the scopes. He went blind and couldn’t shoot so gave all his guns to me. I have never had a problem with either of them! I use one of the rifles, a 7mm Mag, today when hunting alone in New Mexico, and I refuse to let my sons use them at all! I never use any push feed bolt rifle for any dangerous game hunting, and these 700s only rarely when hunting deer or elk alone. Remington has known about the problem with the 700s for many years but simply blames the customers, as other 700 fans do, instead if fixing the problem or even admitting there “IS” a problem. Still that one accidental discharge I mentioned was on an Alaskan moose hunt and the owner was a close friend of mine, and his fingers were not touching the trigger! The rifle was new, and had only been fired enough to get the scope zeroed before leaving for Alaska. We were standing in a spit of trees that jutted out into an open-tundra clearing about 200 yds wide. A big bull moved out of the trees on the opposite side of the clearing headed right for us and would pass within 20 yds of us on a game trail. When the bull got to about 40 yds from us, my friend very carefully slid the safety off with all his fingers around the pistol grip! The 338 Win Mag fired. Needless to say we didn’t get that moose! Back near camp he pushed the safety off again to open the bolt and remove the chambered cartridge! The damn thing fired again! Right here you may ask why he was walking with a loaded chamber after the mishap, and the fact is where we were we had to walk through some tight cover, on the back side of Denali Perk where there are lots of brownies and they are cheeky. It was more dangerous with the rifles empty chamber than with the malfunctioning rifle loaded. He sent the rifle to Remington and they simply sent him another rifle, with no comment. I’m sure however the new rifle they sent him was gone over pretty well before shipment, something Remington needs to do with all their 700s before they are shipped! The above report on the Savage perplexes me, because I just bought my grandson one of the synthetic stocked Savage rifles chambered for 308 because he was looking at a Rem 700! Sure all rifle usually require some smoothing, but IMO, the customer shouldn’t have to fix a rifle right out of the factory box just to make it safe to hunt with! Of course that is only my opinion, but the old saying comes to mind here, “WHERE THERE IS SMOKE, THERE IS USUALLY FIRE SOMEPLACE!” And there has been a lot of smoke where the 700s are concerned! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| one of us |
Mac, I wonder how many of the "accidental" discharges are the result of someone adjusting the trigger to be too light - that is my point. One reason there is so much smoke here is that the trigger is very easy to adjust. | |||
|
| one of us |
A.A.W. I'm sure some of any so-called "ACCIDENTAL" discharges with any rifle are handler caused! However, when one model of a certain brand seems to have an uncommon number of ACCIDENTS, one would normally look to that rifles design to see if that may be the problem, you would think! It seems in the case of the big greens 700, the folks who buy them tend to believe anything Remington tells them, and seem to disregard the resounding noise around the number of problems associated with that model! The first thing I hear in one of these descussions is WELL THE ARMY SNIPERS........... I assure you the Remington used by military snipers is not the 700 you buy at Wall Mart! If it were we wouldn't be having this debate! In any event have a nice day and good hunting! .............................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting TV Ph's, do you cringe when................
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia