you get back from a hunt and see that the idiot client spent most of his time with a loaded rifle pointed at your back as you are easing them in for the shot. I was watching another great edition of my favorite tv show where one of my favorite ph's was leading a hunter armed with a double in close on DG. I sat there in disbelief as I watched the "hunter" point their rifle right at the ph's back numerous times as they snuck, crawled in close. There was absolutely NO EFFORT made by the "hunter" to mitigate the pointing. It was nothing short of outrageous and totally inexcusable. Sadly (or thankfully) the PH appeared totally unaware of what was going on behind him. I know you have to treat clients respectfully if you want both, they and their friends to return. But, enough has to be enough. I know that I have never, even for a moment lost track of where my muzzle is pointed and I have expected nothing less from both my work and hunting partners for the past 30yrs because an idiot having a negligent discharge is a hell of a poor way to die!
Any firm chats with clients?

Chances are good that the stalk was staged after the fact, and that the gun wasn't even loaded.

George

I am sure some scenes are recreated at times, but this appeared to be one continuous over the shoulder view where an animal was shot and that rifle was certainly loaded. And if they are recreating scenes, then Dave and the boys should certainly do better than that!

If this was the cape buff/lion hunt on yesterdays program with the female hunter I was wondering the same thing. I used to help a friend of mine on boar/exotic hunts and that was one of his main fears too. He would visibly watch to make sure a client did not have one jacked in the chamber before they went on a stalk and would do so many times during the course of the day. Every time we would get in or get out of the vehicle he would ask everyone and watch all open and close their bolts.

On the shows I've seen an equal number of PH's sweeping the trackers....probably more. I just don't get the Afican carry. I've wanted to start a thread about it several times but just haven't.

It is really up to the PH to control the situation...

On the Boddington on Buffalo 2 DVD, there is a hunt with Mike Payne where the Buff charges and knocks Mike down during the follow up. I forget the client's name but he is an "industry" guy. Don't remember the company he works with either but I see him from time to time on the shows.

During the charge, the client and Mike both shoot the Buff on his charge. Every time I watch that scene, I just about come out of my seat as the client misses shooting Mike in the back by inches. Nothing was said on the DVD but I'll bet the two of them had a very stern one way conversation after the fact!

If you have the DVD, check it out. It's the one where Mike says "Big Bull, Big Bull" after the initial shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
It is really up to the PH to control the situation...

That's the fact Jack!

This is my 19th year of guiding, and trust me, I've seen it all. Guns pointed at me, pointed at other people, safety's off - while crawling behind me, one guy shot a hole through our cook's truck, slam fires, etc, etc, etc. Its a miracle more guides/ph's aren't shot.

I do always try to be polite/respectful to the client, but any mention of illegal activity or un-safe gun handling, and that gets thrown out the window.

I never worry about the safety of my PH as long as I have my Blaser S2 double. It is not cocked until I cock it. Accurate and safe. I never did feel comfortable hunting with someone walking in front of me with a loaded gun in my hands after I got out of the Marine Corps.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I never worry about the safety of my PH as long as I have my Blaser S2 double. It is not cocked until I cock it. Accurate and safe. I never did feel comfortable hunting with someone walking in front of me with a loaded gun in my hands after I got out of the Marine Corps.

Regardless of whether you are carrying a Blaser or an empty Red Ryder, keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction as a courtesy. I would say common courtesy, but it doesn't seem to be very common.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve A:

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I never worry about the safety of my PH as long as I have my Blaser S2 double. It is not cocked until I cock it. Accurate and safe. I never did feel comfortable hunting with someone walking in front of me with a loaded gun in my hands after I got out of the Marine Corps.

Regardless of whether you are carrying a Blaser or an empty Red Ryder, keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction as a courtesy. I would say common courtesy, but it doesn't seem to be very common.

Amen that!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I never worry about the safety of my PH as long as I have my Blaser S2 double.

Not sure that statement is going to be very popular. Especially with your next PH!

It really doesn't matter if the gun is loaded, empty, safe, cocked, uncocked, or any combination thereof. Gun safety has very little to do with that little device on your weapon!

I used to do a lot of meat hunting with Cowboy city slickers.
If we were getting in close I would ask them to chamber a round and then tel them I would lead them into the shot holding the muzzle or from behind them guiding from the shoulder.

I know a few DG Ph's who insist on an unloaded rifle until they say load and then bolt handle up until the client is in front and presented with the shot.

Gentlemen this is all very simple, no matter how you carry African or New York city, loaded or unloaded, safety on or safety off! The simple fix is DON’T POINT THE DAMN RIFLE AT ANYTHING YOU DON’T INTEND SHOOTING!

.......................

So safety off, chamber loaded but the gun pointed at 90 degrees to the action is OK then Mac??

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So safety off, chamber loaded but the gun pointed at 90 degrees to the action is OK then Mac??

Well now, if the PH is a Wallaby supporter........ ?

Guns point at the back of the PH? I've seen it on videos on here.

But on my first safari, the PH continually recommended using un-safe firearms procedures, demanding them in fact. Always have a round in the chamber, as this was quieter than working the bolt. Keep the rifle loaded in the vehicle ... now sitting in the cab of the Landcruiser, the normal angle of the muzzle would have ben pretty much aimed at the trackers hannging on, on top. So I tried to keep the muzzles angled forward except for bumps in the road ... nowadays I would have told the PH to ffff-off if he carried on like that guy but back then I was more mellow.

The golden rule is NEVER to point the gun at something you dont intend to kill, thatway even if the rifle goes off accidently everyone is safe. But thats something that should be ingrained in gun handling from the time you first pick up a gun in your life. We we were taught that when we had our toy guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
On the Boddington on Buffalo 2 DVD, there is a hunt with Mike Payne where the Buff charges and knocks Mike down during the follow up. I forget the client's name but he is an "industry" guy. Don't remember the company he works with either but I see him from time to time on the shows.

During the charge, the client and Mike both shoot the Buff on his charge. Every time I watch that scene, I just about come out of my seat as the client misses shooting Mike in the back by inches. Nothing was said on the DVD but I'll bet the two of them had a very stern one way conversation after the fact!

If you have the DVD, check it out. It's the one where Mike says "Big Bull, Big Bull" after the initial shot.

I know the scene and I know the hunter. I've never asked him about it, but I've always wondered if it was really that close or whether the camera angle makes it look that way. It certainly looks like it was inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
On the Boddington on Buffalo 2 DVD, there is a hunt with Mike Payne where the Buff charges and knocks Mike down during the follow up. I forget the client's name but he is an "industry" guy. Don't remember the company he works with either but I see him from time to time on the shows.

During the charge, the client and Mike both shoot the Buff on his charge. Every time I watch that scene, I just about come out of my seat as the client misses shooting Mike in the back by inches. Nothing was said on the DVD but I'll bet the two of them had a very stern one way conversation after the fact!

If you have the DVD, check it out. It's the one where Mike says "Big Bull, Big Bull" after the initial shot.

The guy's name is Mike Schoby, he was with Petersen's Hunting at one time. Might still be I don't know. When I talked to Mike Payne in Reno I was going to ask about it but then decided not to bring it up. It sure looks as though the bullet passed damn close to Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So safety off, chamber loaded but the gun pointed at 90 degrees to the action is OK then Mac??

Matt you know damn well that is not what was meant by my post! If the rifle is not pointed at anythig you don't want to shoot it will not be shot even with an accidental discharge!

Common sense states never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot! Safeties and unloaded guns are not sure things either,people make mistakes, and as long a dip-shit human is involved things will happen, but if it is not pointed at anything you don't want shoot, even with safeties, and unloaded chambers you still do not point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot! Does that help clear this up for you?

With all the words printed and advice given here not one of you other than Reddy375, and I stated the obvious, don't point guns at anyone, PERIOD!

quote:

Originally posted by PSmith:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
On the Boddington on Buffalo 2 DVD, there is a hunt with Mike Payne where the Buff charges and knocks Mike down during the follow up. I forget the client's name but he is an "industry" guy. Don't remember the company he works with either but I see him from time to time on the shows.

During the charge, the client and Mike both shoot the Buff on his charge. Every time I watch that scene, I just about come out of my seat as the client misses shooting Mike in the back by inches. Nothing was said on the DVD but I'll bet the two of them had a very stern one way conversation after the fact!

If you have the DVD, check it out. It's the one where Mike says "Big Bull, Big Bull" after the initial shot.

The guy's name is Mike Schoby, he was with Petersen's Hunting at one time. Might still be I don't know. When I talked to Mike Payne in Reno I was going to ask about it but then decided not to bring it up. It sure looks as though the bullet passed damn close to Mike.

Mike is the Editor-In-Chief of Petersen's Hunting, doing a great job at if of you ask me.

I used to do a bit of guiding for ducks.

Scary how good muzzle discipline is so rare.

I spent more time watching where guns were pointed than I did for ducks.

Judging by these postings two things come to my mind. How tremendously careless so many hunter are and how lucky everyone is to have so few accidents. For some reason I cannot reconcile the two. I admit to having only made 8 safaris to Africa and in those I only hunted with one outfitter and a couple of PH's. My standard procedure was to load and chamber a round immediately upon leaving the vehicle and unloading the gun immediately before reentering the vehicle.That has been my practice all my hunting life no matter where or what I was hunting. I would actually NEVER hunt with a PH who insisted I either leave the weapon unloaded till ready to shoot or not chamber a round till instructed and under absolutely NO circumstances would I ever load a bolt rifle and leave the bolt partially open. I would actually not hunt rather than hunt under these conditions. Luckily I never was exposed to any PH's like this and had very enjoyable safari's.

Zimbabwe: My experience has been the same, both in Africa and everywhere else that I have hunted. All of my PH's and professional guides have asked me to chamber a round upon leaving the vehicle and unload before reentering the vehicle. I also do not use the African carry, the safety is always on until the shot, and the muzzle is always pointed in a safe direction.

Todd,
Not to imply that I am not muzzle conscious. If I point a muzzle at something, I am about to shoot it. It was just an implication about the safety of the S2. I am VERY conscious of where my rifle is pointed ALL OF THE TIME. I was not comfortable on my first safari when the PH advised me to load and chamber and then walked in front of me. Good habits are also hard to break. I still am not comfortable with someone in front of me with a loaded, on safe, firearm. Please don't misunderstand my post.

Pagosa, sorry if I misunderstood you.

quote:

Judging by these postings two things come to my mind. How tremendously careless so many hunter are and how lucky everyone is to have so few accidents

This is why I can count my hunting companions on half of one hand. I just can't imagine my daughter hearing her dad was shot by an idiot in the field. We all have our moments but for me, the more guns the scarier, not the merrier...

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So safety off, chamber loaded but the gun pointed at 90 degrees to the action is OK then Mac??

Matt you know damn well that is not what was meant by my post! If the rifle is not pointed at anythig you don't want to shoot it will not be shot even with an accidental discharge!

Common sense states never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot! Safeties and unloaded guns are not sure things either,people make mistakes, and as long a dip-shit human is involved things will happen, but if it is not pointed at anything you don't want shoot, even with safeties, and unloaded chambers you still do not point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot! Does that help clear this up for you?

With all the words printed and advice given here not one of you other than Reddy375, and I stated the obvious, don't point guns at anyone, PERIOD!

I was just making a point that if someone took your post literally - then that is the exact scenario they could find themselves in!!

IMO There is no hard and fast method or single 'golden rule' that works in every situation - and simply saying dont point your muzzle at anything you dont want to sdhoot is simply not enough good instruction for people and will not guarantee safety.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
and under absolutely NO circumstances would I ever load a bolt rifle and leave the bolt partially open.

What do you think is wrong with carrying a bolt action in this manner???

For one thing it is no guarantee of safety in any way. The bolt can inadvertantly be closed without the shooters knowledge and then the safety is not on and he would still assume the rifle was safe. The other reason is the bolt may also come open and actually be withdrawn again without the shooters knowledge. I am constantly amazed at how many people on these forums distrust the use of time prooved safety practices and the safety device provided by the manufacturer of the firearm. I once was offered a rifle by a PH to use for some reason. It was an FN M98 sporter. I went to engage the safety and found the thumb lever had been broken off. I volunteered to silver solder an arm back on for him but he said no he had deliberately broken it off as it poked him in the back sometimes when he carried it. Incidentally I didn't use it.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Graham:

[QUOTE] Matt you know damn well that is not what was meant by my post! If the rifle is not pointed at anythig you don't want to shoot it will not be shot even with an accidental discharge!

quote:

I was just making a point that if someone took your post literally - then that is the exact scenario they could find themselves in!!

IMO There is no hard and fast method or single 'golden rule' that works in every situation - and simply saying dont point your muzzle at anything you dont want to sdhoot is simply not enough good instruction for people and will not guarantee safety.

Still if the rifle was pointed 90 degrees out of line with anyone nobody would be shot with an accidental discharge. Certainly all of the suggestions are valid, but the point I was making was the most important one of all is simply do not point a gun at any one and the rest is simply back-up!

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
and under absolutely NO circumstances would I ever load a bolt rifle and leave the bolt partially open

ZIM, I agree with you about the bolt handle being left up with a round in the chamber! It is silly! The only way most bolt rifle would be totally safe is #1 it is not pointed at anyone at any time, and #2 the magazine is loaded, and the chamber empty and the bolt closed!

The fact that everyone is bypassing is the fact the way the rifle is loaded, and handled even if not pointed at anyone can be a very dangerous thing! What I mean by that is the danger is not only FROM the rifle, but if loaded wrong, or carried by some one else your rifle is a danger to YOU, if you run into something that wants to kill you, at very short range, not giving you time to make that rifle ready to fight with! So sometimes you have to rely on the safeties built into the rifle, and simply DON”T POINT IT AT ANYTHING YOU DON’T WANT TO SHOOT!

…………………………………………………........................... ......................... .

Todd,
It's ok, I can see where my comment might have been misconstrued. I never point a weapon at someone unless I am in the process of shooting them. Accidental discharges do happen by some of the most knowledgeable shooters and hunters out there. I have a limited number of friends that I trust enough to hunt with because I have heard the comment "it's OK, the safety's on" way too many times. As I said, On my first trip to SA, I wasn't comfortable with someone in front of me, a loaded round in the tube and the safety on. The Blaser, I am told, cannot be fired until the firing pins are engaged by the cocking mech. I still don't point it at them or the trackers.

At this point I would like to lighten the subject a little and recount an incident that occurred several years ago.So if you would indulge me.
The client was from across the "pond," a very studious type who battled valiantly within himself not to have fun. Not only tall but with a serious religous bent. No vulgar profanity, no jokes other than mild knock-knock types, and definitely nothing that had anything to do with fermentation except bread. He wanted more than anything else, a really good warthog. The weather had been cold and very windy for a few days, not the best of conditions for pigs in the Eastern Cape. However, I knew of a spot where it was sheltered from the wind. It is near some water troughs, cattle, other game and pigs drink there. Because of the cattle frequenting the area, the ground is soft and covered with powdered dung. It is almost like walking on cotton wool. With the sun out, it would be like a hot house in the little basin even though the wind was blowing like hell on the tops. I explained to the Ca.. er hunter that as the area is quite bushy and things would happen close and quickly. We had a little heated hissed discussion on the scope power setting, close you know, then I got him to load a round and not close the bolt as his rifle had a very loud safety. I had him hold his rifle at the high port, with his fingers under the bolt and his thumb above the bolt. He was when and if a target was sighted, to lower the bolt "quietly" and shoot when clear. Apart from stopping frequently to allow for the hunter to relax and slow his rasping breath, all went well until we came up on a large boar, he was lying on his side, back to me, head to my left. At four yards, I could see the puffs of dust as he breathed out. The boar's right hand tusk looked at least eight inches out the tushes. The left hand tusk was a little obscured. At this stage the client could not see the boar. I stepped back nodded to the client, drew him by his left shoulder slowly past the bush in front of us until he could see the boar. He went into action, he took a loud hard step to his left, flipped his bolt up, ejected the round and cycled a new round and aimed at a cloud of dust, the pig having left the arena before the first round had landed on the ground. He then admonished me for my profanity. I could only reply that I was actually asking for Divine Intervention.

I guided a gentlemen from Europe once, that insisted that his 9.3 be chambered with a live round immediately after leaving camp and the safety be kept in the "FIRE" position!! ("to save time know"!!!)

No matter what I said to refrain this gentlemen from carrying a loaded at all times, he wouldn't listen to it!

I eventually had to 'confiscate' his bolt and keep it my top pocket and only return it when it was time for action - literally! He nearly ripped my pocket apart a few times when he sighted some Warthogs!!!!

From the time my girls first held a BB gun, I stress until they repeat it themselves: MUZZLE CONTROL, MUZZLE CONTROL, MUZZLE CONTROL. As MacD stated, dont ever point it at anything you wouldn't want destroyed.

The bolt half open with a round chambered is taught in New Zealand for decades as it is considered much safer than relying on a mechanical safety when immediately stalking up on game. (It is also usually much quieter to go to fire.)

The half-open bolt is readily visable everyone around you that the weapon cannot fire. A knocked on safety catch may not be noticed. A bolt closed inadvertantly is immdiately apparent and obvious to all.

New Zealand hunters have a very high safety record and I say that quite proudly considereing the amount of hunting everyone does all year round.
They are literally taught never to use or rely on a safety catch at all. It seems like something smiliar must be taught in SA.

Obviously all the rest of it must be followed, muzzle control, and trust all weapons as loaded, but using a rifle safety in NZ is considered dodgy, flaky, and downright unsafe.

I mention this only out of interest. The best safety of all is the hunter himself.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matt Graham:



[QUOTE] I was just making a point that if someone took your post literally - then that is the exact scenario they could find themselves in!!

IMO There is no hard and fast method or single 'golden rule' that works in every situation - and simply saying dont point your muzzle at anything you dont want to sdhoot is simply not enough good instruction for people and will not guarantee safety.

Still if the rifle was pointed 90 degrees out of line with anyone nobody would be shot with an accidental discharge. Certainly all of the suggestions are valid, but the point I was making was the most important one of all is simply do not point a gun at any one and the rest is simply back-up!

If a loaded rifle (potentially with safety off) is carried at 90 degrees to travel it only takes a fall or bump and the that rifle may well be pointing at someone and possibly triggered.

Carlsen Highway - yes this is taught in Australia too!!! With boltguns - Many, many times when I have hunters around vehicles especially I tell them I do not care what the status of their firearm is.... so long as the bolt is UP. It cannot fire in that position and everyone can see that. There is no safer way with multiple people being around loaded bolt guns...

quote:

He then admonished me for my profanity

At which point you would have been forgiven for placing his rifle in his rectum.
I can just see it all happening,

If I kill my PH or tracker I am responsible.

Therefore I elect not to carry a round in the chamber until told to by the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
If I kill my PH or tracker I am responsible.

Therefore I elect not to carry a round in the chamber until told to by the PH.

My PH chambers a round as soon as he gets out of the truck, and I do the same.

Our rifles only get unloaded when we return to the truck, or when we shoot something and are busy butchering it.

Anytime we walk anywhere, both our rifles have a round chambered and on safe.