Hey now . Tell the truth . It was a Simmons!

I used Simmons on my 308 for 15 or so years
Finally went astray so I got Nikon
Hope I have another 15 years, if I live that long.
Jim should be using flintlock with iron sights for earning black powder award

What's the chance he could get/take black powder to all the places he travels and hunts? I would say zero to none, so that kinda rules out using what you suggested. Just saying.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I used Simmons on my 308 for 15 or so years
Finally went astray so I got Nikon
Hope I have another 15 years, if I live that long.
Jim should be using flintlock with iron sights for earning black powder award

You know Larry, I always wonder how he does that.

Same here.

quote:

Jim should be using flintlock with iron sights for earning black powder award

Is anybody else required to do this?
Why should he be required to play by a separate set of rules?

Can black powder be shipped?

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Can black powder be shipped?

Black powder and black powder substitute that fall under the UN explosive classification of any kind can be shipped by surface transport under the hazmat restrictions but can never be legally transported on any commercial passenger aircraft under any circumstances and detonators fall under the same rules.

quote:

As to Shockey seeing the light he is still a Canauk.

If you can do no better than reveal your prejudices, at least spell your blindness correctly!

The word is Canuk

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
You know Larry, I always wonder how he does that.

Jay Guthrie told me he would load centerfire cartridges with black powder, then pull the bullets when he got to where he was going.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Jay Guthrie told me he would load centerfire cartridges with black powder, then pull the bullets when he got to where he was going.

Anyone who does such a thing is not only incredibly irresponsible & insanely stupid but also risks very serious consequences if caught:

Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know
Air Travel with Black Powder is Absolutely Prohibited: What You Need to Know

Black powder is a Class 1.10, Packing Group II, number UN0027 “Explosive”. Air travel with black powder in your checked luggage is prohibited. Carriage on a plane is not one single offense. Rather, it constitutes multiple offenses and subjects the sportsman to multiple separate civil penalties (15 to be exact) that can each be substantial. The following is a partial quote from a Notice of Proposed Civil Penalty received by a hunter when his luggage was found to contain one container of Jim Shockey’s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement:

By reason of the above, you violated the following Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations (Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations):

1. Section 171.2(a) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation in commerce when the hazardous material was not properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter.

2. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the proper shipping name prescribed for the material in Column 2 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

3. Sections 172.200(a) and 172.202(a)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the hazard class or division prescribed for the material as shown in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

4. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(3) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the identification number prescribed for the material as shown in Column 4 of the § 172.101 Table, in the manner required by this subpart.

5. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(4) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the packing grouping, in Roman numerals, prescribed for the material in Column 5 of the § 172.101 Table, if any, of the material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

6. Sections 172.200(a) and Section 172.202(a)(5) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to describe the hazardous material on the shipping papers, including the total quantity (by net or gross mass, capacity, or as otherwise appropriate), including the unit of measurement, of the hazardous material covered by the description, in the manner required by this subpart.

7. Sections 172.204(a) or (c)(1) in that you offered a hazardous material for transportation and failed to certify that the material was offered for transportation in accordance with this subchapter by printing on the shipping paper containing the required shipping description one of the certifications set forth in this part.

8. Section 172.204(c)(2) in that you offered a hazardous material to an aircraft operator for transportation by air and failed to provide two copies of the certification required in this section.

9. Section 172.204(c)(3) in that you offered for transportation by air a hazardous material authorized for air transportation and failed to add the certification required in this section the following statement:

“I declare that all of the applicable air transport requirements have been met.”

10. Section 172.301(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in a non-bulk packaging and failed to mark the package with the proper shipping name and identification number (preceded by “UN” or “NA”, as appropriate) for the material as shown in the § 172.101 Table.

11. Section 172.400(a) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material in one of the packages or containment devices listed in this subpart and failed to label the package or containment device with the labels specified for the material in the § 172.101 Table and in this subpart.

12. Section 172.600(c) in that you offered for transportation a hazardous material and failed to make the emergency response information immediately available for use at all times the hazardous material was present, and failed to make such information, including an emergency response telephone number, immediately available to any government agency responding to an incident involving hazardous material or conducting an investigation which involves a hazardous material.

13. Section 172.21(a) in that you offered for transportation materials designated “Forbidden” in Column 3 of the § 172.101 Table.

14. Section 173.21(b) in that you offered for transportation forbidden explosives as defined in § 173.54 of this part.

15. Section 173.54(a) in that you offered for transportation an explosive that had not been approved in accordance with § 173.56 of this subpart.

In accordance with Section 5123(a) of Chapter 51, Title 49 of the United States Code of Transportation, 49 U.S.C§ 5123, [name of violator] is liable for a civil penalty of not less than $250, nor greater than $50,000 ($100,000 if death, serious illness, severe injury, or substantial property damage results), for each violation of the regulations.
John J. Jackson, III
Conservation Force - A Force For Wildlife Conservation, Wild Places And Our Way Of Life
cf@conservationforce.org
www.conservationforce.org
http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/porta...RCRD&vgnextfmt=print

PHMSA Interpretation #01-0216
Oct 15, 2001
PHMSA Response Letter
________________________________________
October 15, 2001

Mr. Larry J. Talley Reference No. 01-0216
2499 Countrywood Parkway
Cordova, TN 38018
Dear Mr. Talley:
This responds to your letter dated August 7, 2001, regarding the transportation of black powder under the U.S. Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) and the International Civil Aviation Organization's Technical Instructions for the Safe Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (ICAO Technical Instructions). Specifically, you ask if there are any exceptions that would allow for the domestic or international transportation of black powder by aircraft.
The answer is no. The air transportation of black powder is forbidden both domestically under the HMR and internationally under the ICAO Technical Instructions. Putting the black powder into either a shotgun case or brass rifle case, as you describe in your letter, and carrying it onto an aircraft, would be a willful violation of the regulations. .
I trust this satisfies your inquiry. Please contact us if we can be of further assistance.
Sincerely,

Edward T. Mazzullo
Director
Office of Hazardous Materials Standards
173.22

Not that I have ever wanted to travel with my black powder guns but this cured me of ever wanting to do so.

Quite honestly, it's probably fairly easy to obtain locally with a bit of pre planning so why bother trying to take it onto an aircraft?

It is highly unlikely that Shockey or any of the others that have touted using American made powders in Africa brought that powder to Africa legally. I have had several people including TV hosts and top ten SCI muzzleloader award recipients tell me they either carried it over in hand checked bags or in shotgun shells. One powder executive even told me that is how they recommended doing it as it was no big deal.
I want to hunt with my muzzleloader because I enjoy hunting that way. If I Decide to use powder it will be Swiss that Hunter Support can purchase and have ready when I arrive at my destination.
Shockey and the award winners should show where they purchased their powder or how it was available to them overseas. Otherwise no award should be given.
Kudus to all the guys that played by the rules and put others safety before their pursuit of awards or fame.

Trying to take it onto a commercial passenger aircraft is unbelievably irresponsible and since 9/11 is inviting trouble of the most serious kind......... and recent events will mean airlines and Govts will have even less sense of humour in such cases.

Beyond legalities, what is the real issue with transporting modern black powder products on an aircraft. I thought those pellets were very stable.

It's all about the UN/DOT classification. (which are pretty much always the same)

If it's classified as an explosive material of any kind, it may not be transported on any commercial passenger aircraft. (simply because it explodes rather than burns as flammable material does)

Materials such as smokeless powder is classified as flammable (rather than explosive) and flammable materials may be transported under certain restrictions such as packaging and weight etc...... Even then, the law states that individual ammo allocations may not be combined into one piece of baggage and that technically, individual pieces of baggage containing ammo should be a set distance apart in the baggage hold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_number

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_goods

ADDED LATER

An aircraft hold has some resistance to and can contain a limited fire but has virtually no resistance and cannot contain even a small explosion.

I wonder when UN/or anyone else will start restricting even more everything else.
I can see the times coming when travel with guns and ammo is thing of the past.
What's wrong with people?

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I wonder when UN/or anyone else will start restricting even more everything else.
I can see the times coming when travel with guns and ammo is thing of the past.
What's wrong with people?

They have already started.

About 5 or so years ago, the EU banned the transport of ANY and ALL sporting ammunition through ANY and ALL EU airports and bearing in mind the only ammo they could carry was sporting ammo, that meant carriage of all ammo was effectively banned.

Then a few weeks later, they issued a waiver to allow the airlines to carry ammo for hunting and target shooting (which as previously mentioned, was the only ammo they could carry) but it should be noted, that original ban was not withdrawn and is still law but with a waiver to allow sporting ammo.

That to me suggests they have every intention of withdrawing the waiver and enforcing the ban at some time in the future.

quote:

What's wrong with people?

People the world over have elected idiots to reign over us.
There are extremely few people in office that I have voted for, but I am still stuck with the dumb ass decision they all make.

I call them "Do gooders" - the ones that were so drunk and stoned thru Sixties, Seventies and partial Eighties, they can't remember shit and now that they are awake, they wanna save the world and us from ourselves
Ship them to Russia, that will cure them...

For any of you who seriously worry about "losing zero," the solution is very simple. Buy a Shepherd scope. One shot zero, always. Works. Fine optics, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Watched Shockey's 3rd episode last night. He is a bit of a hypocrite. Feigning disgust about the native people killing for food a furry white creature as cruel. He hunts for trophies and castigates natives for killing for food. A real hero! Lost a bit of respect for him.

I am just back from New Zealand and watched the show in question. Before this I never knew a critter like this existed.

What I saw was an animal that was terrorized while the tree was being chopped down. Then it was clubbed to death . Not exactly a quick painless death . I can understand that it was hard to watch. I can't understand asking the locals if they felt bad. They were just trying to eat .