And what ends hunting altogether?
Meat hunting, because it is the indiscriminate
It did in North America once and trophy hunting in the end was its saviour
Africa will finish its own game for meat unless they will look at trophy hunting as business mod el in future
It’s funny how we turn on ourselves
Sorry boys, I will defend trophy hunting as the best management tool for saving the animals and our own kind

Antis are winning big time
I’m sure glad here in Montana we stand our ground so far

Nobody is saying that conservation hunting that targets and removes older non breeding animals from population sensitive species is not necessary for survival of that species by creating funding and habitat.

What we, or at least I, am saying is that hunting of population sensitive animals must be done based on the best science under principles third party, professionals endorse. The best example were hunting failed was lion.

As it relates to elephant we have a non consumptive use group FZ tried to find common ground with hunting, They reached out to the professional hunting association and outfitters and said we know you are going to hunt, please do not shoot these few 20 odd large bulls we collared.

This one Outfitter out of greed decided that goodwill was not sufficient and now has killed two large, collared bulls that were iconic to the park. These killings were uncessary and not done with the best interest of hunting.

The death of these two bulls only stand to make an enemy out of another entity that had been willing to live along side hunting. It is greed and selfish.

Finally, Zimbabwe is dying for the US hunting market for elephant. These two bulls only make legalizing import and marketability of Zimbabwe elephant more unlikely. Thus, the Outfitter has only caused elephant in Zimbabwe to suffer. There is no net gain here. The longer the elephant ban stays in place, the longer the lion ban stays in place, the more likely outfitters who relied on those two species to make the math work will turn concessions back over.

Do I wish times were different, and this area had more than 20 odd 100pounders. Yes, I do. However, the world is what it is. We need allies outside of the hunting industry and orgnized hunting. Actions like this only make those would be allies into enemies. I fully understand FZ not wanting all the 100pounders that use their Park concession shot in a couple of hunting seasons.

quote:

Meat hunting, because it is the indiscriminate

No! Market hunting was a problem but once game and fish laws were established the situation began to change.

Trophy hunting in and of itself has done more harm than good because it concentrates on only one segment of the population of any species.

Milan, I normally agree with a lot of comments/responses on the various issues, but being a First Hand Witness, the emphasis on "Trophy Animals" has been more detrimental for hunting in America at least than ALL of the efforts put forth by the anti-hunting forces.

I agree with Milan- in so much as we are talking recreational hunting.

Market gunning and subsistence hunting both are very indiscriminate, and tend to push towards unregulated take.

While the folks who misbehave while seeking the biggest animals can have issues... trophy hunting- read recreational hunting- has traditionally been better for the game than any other form of sustainable use.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by cow-trader:
The rest of you fellows, I am going to tell you that FZS is in Gonarezhou for the longhaul. They are easy for us to get along with. Not getting along with them is going bite you in the arse.

If you want to finish off hunting fight with them.

The truth is that they sugar-coated these last 2 opinions on the collard elies.

It was common knowledge to all in Naivasha that those eles were there and Yeatman had been contacted.

In fact, several PHs saw the first elie prior to it bing shot.

Their statements could have been a hell of a lot worse. A whole hell of a lot worse.

I agree. Again, based on the facts that we know, I find very little to be critical of the FZS over in terms of how they have handled not just these two incidents but the entire collaring, tracking and coordinating with the hunting community program.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Meat hunting, because it is the indiscriminate

No! Market hunting was a problem but once game and fish laws were established the situation began to change.



Trophy hunting in and of itself has done more harm than good because it concentrates on only one segment of the population of any species.

Milan, I normally agree with a lot of comments/responses on the various issues, but being a First Hand Witness, the emphasis on "Trophy Animals" has been more detrimental for hunting in America at least than ALL of the efforts put forth by the anti-hunting forces.

We are talking about Africa which has market place hunting legal and illegal

I understand but I find it hard to see what meat hunting has to do with the decline of elephant and rhino when all that is being taken from those carcasses are the ivory/horns.

I also understand the "Bush Meat Industry" is causing a vlot of problems, but in the bigger picture concerning African Wildlife, Trophy Hunting by foreign sportsmen is singled out as the biggest threat in the eyes/minds of lots of people

All of us have blind spots on the various issues, with animal rights/anti hunters it is the effect indigenous people have on the whole wildlife population and only concentrate on the "Sport Hunter" who is simply after a Trophy.

Also, to me at least, it doesn't seem that the anti's expend any energy toward denouncing poaching and the role China/South East Asia play in keeping that active.

quote:

elephant and rhino when all that is being taken from those carcasses are the ivory/horn

I don’t know first hand about rhino but all the meat from the carcasses of legally hunted ele is processed and eaten.

First hand, the meat and carcass of legally hunted Rhino are fully utilized as well.

I have not been involved in much hunting where the carcass was not fully utilized, and I think I have been involved in quite a bit... I've seen more waste from fishing than hunting, frankly- especially in "catch and release" with badly hooked fish that went belly up immediately.

Crazy, the point is "meat hunting" has different meanings too. In many places, meat hunting means subsistence hunting or shooting animals to sell the meat (market gunning or bush meat...take your pick of the name)

If you are sport hunting (another name for trophy hunting) and your trophy is the meat, what is different than the guy who wants as big a head as he can get and is willing to pass on young animals to do so?

Please stop and think one minute, there is a wide gulf of difference between LEGALLY hunted animals and animals that go into the "Bush Meat" market, Yes or No?

Not really.

When local hunting was legal in Tanz when I first went there in 2011, there was a bunch of bush meat for sale and the local hunters were selling meat regularly. This was legal at the time.

There were also many playing games with their licenses to keep shooting game.

Meat hunting is capable of being abused badly. In my opinion, it is much worse in most places than trophy hunting- if you are not in the developed world. Of course, what you think of as meat hunting in the US is really trophy hunting by the strictest definitions.

quote:

When local hunting was legal in Tanz when I first went there in 2011, there was a bunch of bush meat for sale and the local hunters were selling meat regularly. This was legal at the time.

Wrong - the sale of game meat in Tanzania, whether shot legally or not is a criminal offence (always been).

You may gift it but make sure the recipient has a copy of your game license or a covering note from the license holder.

Fulvio, it may have been illegal, but it was happening!

I saw it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Fulvio, it may have been illegal, but it was happening!
I saw it.

Chris, your closing statement:

"This was legal at the time".

I repeat, the sale of game meat whether it was shot legally or illegally is strictly prohibited, has always been since colonial times, still is and is a criminal offense.

I am not contesting that you did not witness it, I have too and I have also seen a cemetery of Hippo carcasses in one particular area which to the poachers must be their "supermarket".

The poaching of meat for sale is alive and well, always has been and the perpetrators are getting away with it; the odd one gets caught out but the numbers are too insignificant to make a difference.

quote:

Of course, what you think of as meat hunting in the US is really trophy hunting by the strictest definitions.

Not really.

Myself, my wife and a whole lot of folks I know and have talked to rarely if ever shoot a buck deer. Yes trophy hunting is the major force for many American hunters, to the point that they will give the meat from the bucks they kill away and will not shoot does, even though they are aware doe numbers need to be controlled.

From what I have read, the bush meat trade in Africa is a situation of "Meats, Meat when it hits the ground, the species ain't all that important"!

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Hunters cannot keep flipping off the scientific community and non consumptive land use model.

FZS has tried to find a common ground in Zimbabwe. They have been met with greed and stupidity on the part of this Outfitter.

If hunting comes to an end our failure to identify and refrain from bad acts and actors will be the cause.

I said it at least four times and will say it until Saeed bans me, if all hunting is about is the biggest, largest bag you can buy then hunting should end.

And now, knowing Nixon facilitated the hunt where the Yank killed and ele in the park with a Dutchman PH, people should not be surprised that they wanted him out of Malipati.

Some will still question this no doubt.

I have what might be a sensitive question. For years, I have heard that Yeatman has a bad reputation. Stay away from him. However, I have never heard how he got this reputation.

Can anyone enlighten us on this matter?

Sadly, there are a number of very shady professional hunters operating in Zimbabwe.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Some will still question this no doubt.

I have what might be a sensitive question. For years, I have heard that Yeatman has a bad reputation. Stay away from him. However, I have never heard how he got this reputation.

Can anyone enlighten us on this matter?

One of them I personally witnessed
Hunting across consession borders under pretense of wounding and tracking animal after it “ crossed “
And Nixon said it wasn’t the first time

quote:

I said it at least four times and will say it until Saeed bans me, if all hunting is about is the biggest, largest bag you can buy then hunting should end.

Gosh I have been looking for hunters like you cause I am at a loss to what to do with all my under 40 inch Sable.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I really have no idea how many tagged ducks and other birds we have shot throughout the years.

Are we really trying to equate a tag on the leg of a bird, where there are millions of them, and the tags purpose is to see where that birds end, and an elephant selected, and collared with an enormous collar that can be seen very clearly, and in the current situation of us having such a hard time fighting anti hunting sentiments?

If some of you still cannot realize this, may be the confiscation of the ivory might wake you up.

We keep saying we should police ourselves.

With collared elephants, we failed miserabley in policing ourselves.

And the authorities have taken notice of that, and decided we are not good enough at it.

I am still waiting to hear what excuse this sorry pair of PH and client had in deciding to shoot this one.

Especially after what had happened before.

Because "we did not see any collar" is not going to hold any water any more.

Agree totally. Stop shooting collared big game animals.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I said it at least four times and will say it until Saeed bans me, if all hunting is about is the biggest, largest bag you can buy then hunting should end.

Gosh I have been looking for hunters like you cause I am at a loss to what to do with all my under 40 inch Sable.

Whats wrong with smaller sable?
I have several kudus ( I suppose inches on kudu matter to most ) and never once thought about size.
Yes you hear this and that but simple question is all I ask - mature?
If I head out for guided hunt, I trust guide/PH after initial talk beforehand

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I said it at least four times and will say it until Saeed bans me, if all hunting is about is the biggest, largest bag you can buy then hunting should end.

Gosh I have been looking for hunters like you cause I am at a loss to what to do with all my under 40 inch Sable.

That works great for me. Since I don’t bring anything home anymore, I tell the PH all I want is a representative head and a good, clean hunt. Broken horn, deformed-I don’t care. And I already have a 40” sable anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I said it at least four times and will say it until Saeed bans me, if all hunting is about is the biggest, largest bag you can buy then hunting should end.

Gosh I have been looking for hunters like you cause I am at a loss to what to do with all my under 40 inch Sable.

I will be more then happy to remove that burden from you. I am sure you will let me shoot them for free, as no-one wants an under 40" Sable.