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I think with hunting there is very much a question of having to live and work with your neighbours. In this case considerable effort has been made to track, dart and fit the collar and then building up a clear picture of the Elephant's movements over a period of time. The scientific is after all trying to get a better understanding of the elephant so as to help us live alongside them better. Seems some what an own goal for a hunter to then go and shoot it, especially if there are other shootable animals. Its in the same vein that notable stags that become favourites of locals then go and get shot by a hunter just because they are easy to shoot, doesn't do the hunting fraternity any good at all. | |||
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I don't live there so I can't make a rule on how many miles. I do however live right next to Yellowstone national park, and we have been over and around this subject a trillion times. here is how things settled out. if there is a legal hunt going on and a hunter has a valid license and tag for the animal then the animal is fair game. if the animal is on the park side of the line he is off limits. collar or not means nothing, it isn't someone's pet. the government in that area is in charge of the hunting, if they don't want the animals shot don't sell tags for them. or restrict the tags based on the donation made to the local economy they have no problem telling a client what animal they may or may not shoot in other parts of the world. [quite often based on the dollar amount you pay] it's pretty simple. | |||
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Of course it is. Once again hunters have delivered to anti-hunting groups on a silver platter yet the latest example of hunters acting irresponsibly to be used to sway the non-hunting public against hunting. The anti-hunting groups know that they just need to be patient and hunters will deliver the examples they need to peddle their wares. * One of only twenty collared elephant bulls (out of more than 10,000 elephant) in a national park is shot. * It is the second such bull to be shot in two months. * The area adjoins the national park and the operators in the area are made aware of the fact when any one of the handful of collared bulls leave the park so they can avoid them. Once again we deliver to anti-hunting groups the sort of example that they can use to portray all hunting as bad, all hunters as being antithetical to conservation, hunters as being selfish, etc. Mike | |||
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Aah yes, the path to freedom has been revealed.... | |||
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Agree Mike and it is not fair for the others in Zimbabwe to be lumped into the backlash. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Funny coincidence, I am watching "addicted to the outdoors" with a hunter hunting elk in Pennsylvania on a much coveted draw tag. He just lost his mind with excitement when he shot a collared bull. The next scene if the area biologist saying that there are 63 collared bulls and they are collared to collect 3 pieces of data: 1) population analysis 2) survival analysis 3) habitat selection This hunter truly sees it as a plus that he shot a collared bull. It would seem to me, many of you are letting those interested in the demise of your sport define the parameters of your actions, a true recipe for disaster. | |||
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Mate there is an agreement not to shoot these elephant. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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apparently not with the PH and hunter that shot the bull. Should they be bound by the agreements of others? | |||
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If the outcome was the bull was going to die via a hunter's hand, that's not artificial manipulation....that's life in the bush. Saying it can't be shot cause its collared when clearly its a legal target, is artificial manipulation of the data! | |||
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Nope....not unless they agreed to it too! An agreement between whom Andrew? | |||
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The Operators/PH association and FZS. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Aaron, There you go, making my point again.  Good show! However, this thread has become tiring for an old hunter, so I am off to work on my travel trailer. G'day! NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I think you guys are missing my point to the argument all together..... I'm not arguing ethics, I'm not arguing legality and I am not arguing in FAVOR of intentionally / knowingly shooting collared animals....I'm arguing the science, period! The "science" aspect of it is now used as a cover for the animal lovers to protect certain animals for obvious reasons, not because they are truly searching for the data/science as it pertains the the species who live amongst and sometimes wander into legal hunting territories! Honestly, I doubt nowadays I would shoot a collared animal for many of the reasons mentioned here already. But not because I felt like it was helping science, that's BS. Like I said already, Dr. Loveridge was not mad at us at all for shooting the collared lion. He clearly told me, that's part of the science of gathering data on these animals...period! Dr. White collared numerous lions in Zambia...I went with her one day as just the two of us tried to dart a lion, no luck that morning unfortunately. Her / I had this exact same talk....she clearly told me that she does not want the collared lion NOT shot by a hunter, simply because he's collared. Doing so, falsely manipulates the data she was seeking! She was clear about that, but she was also a real scientist - not just an animal welfare activist! As CRButler states too...then maybe more clarity is the answer? None of us know what the client knew / was told, so that's just speculation. Obviously the PH should have known better it seems? I've hunted on both sides of Kruger (SA and Moz side) and in both cases I was willing to shoot a big elephant, did not in either case. I was however, clearly told in both instances - that any elephant deemed over 70lbs was off limits, as they had agreements with the park not to shoot these bulls. One bull in particular was over 100lbs and he frequented the Moz area - thus why I was warned in advance. Of course I was not thrilled...but I was ok with the rules laid forth by the PH. We never saw that bull, but we did see a 70+ pounder, the PH said yes - we can shoot him, but he stayed about 500 yards on the park side all day and never come over the line - thus we never got him. Strictly IMO....if you guys all want no collared animals shot for the other reasons you've laid out - then so be it. But the conservation / science argument is plain BS....nothing more! | |||
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I was referring to the PH / client....apparently they did not agree? Or...the PH ignored his agreement the the ZPHA? | |||
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And some folks are upset that Trump won't allow import of elephant parts. I can understand why he will not, when there is an agreement not to shoot the 22 elephants wearing a collar, and then 2 PH's who are not members, tell their client to shoot. What part of hunting is a privilege not a right don't you/they understand? | |||
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Except ZPWMA says it is. And their was an agreement not to hunt those 22 elephants. When elephant hunting is closed off because 2 folks broke the rules, don't cry here about you can't hunt elephant there or import parts. | |||
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I don't think it helps hunting for these collared bulls to be shot. Given what I know, I would decline to shoot one. But for ZPHGA to claim it is unethical seems wrong. If it was an agreement with the association, that is one thing. Breaking the agreement would come as bringing their word into disrepute, and thus be incumbent on its members to uphold their word, but it is not unethical for the client (who may not have heard of this) or the nonmember PH to uphold an agreement that they didn't make (or in the case of MP, that he disagreed with and left over...) But as a more fundamental question- WHY did FZS collar these bulls? If it was to get data, fine, then if they get shot it is a data point as others have stated. If it was to protect them from hunters, that should have been agreed to by ALL stakeholders (not just ZPHGA and FZS and the Gonarhezou trust), and the hunting clients be informed of it in advance. I have issues with "protective collaring" but if that is what the Zim government wants to do, it is their ball game. However, it sounds like ZPHGA set itself up as bargaining with FZS as a representative of all hunters in Zimbabwe, when it has no way of enforcing the conduct; and FZS decided that for whatever reason protecting the big tuskers (not the elephant population as a whole) is its role. I note that the game scout on this hunt did not stop the shot- for whatever reason. Whether he did not know it was a discouraged action, whether the client offered a big enough tip for him to look the other way, or if he took the road of if it isn't illegal, its not my place to interfere; who knows. The problem here is that shooting a few big tuskers will not matter a drop of spit in the total numbers of elephant. its not an ethical issue as long as it was a fair chase hunt; rather its a public relations issue in that it is causing a furor over hunters in the US and that is a problem for Zim in they want our hunter's money. I am not stating that I like it happening or that I agree with it. | |||
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I respectfully think this logic is flawed at best Aaron... you are literally saying the only way for the data to be "pure" or "accurate" is to shoot the elephant if given the chance. Sorry, but that is ridiculous... Now... the argument that taking the elephant and subsequently gathering the data and the data has value is fine... But to argue not shooting is data manipulation....that's a poor argument. | |||
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I could care less if the elephant bulls were collared for research or to protect them. The reality in today's Africa is that large tuskers are extremely rare. The fact that these bulls spend the majority of their lives in the national park and that the national park is established in significant part to protect the wildlife in the park, makes it perfectly rational to collar a handful of large bulls to protect them from poachers, allow them to be tracked and preserve them for the exceptional creatures that they are. If FZS were collaring hundreds of bulls I might feel differently. But here, they collared a handful of bulls out of the overall elephant population (less than 0.2%). Set any science considerations aside, I find no fault with the practice of selectively collaring large bulls to preserve them for all to enjoy. Mike | |||
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One things for sure...you won't have to worry about whether shooting collard Bulls is/isn't part of the Scientific model when they ban Elephant hunting and remove you from the equation. Times are a changing...adapt or become extinct. | |||
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100% +1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Dr. Butler, The majority of PHs in Zim look at these 2 bull as national treasures. They feel that PHs in their association should work in unison with orgs like FZ. Every Zim PH that I know that I would hunt with does feel it is unethical to shoot these large collared bulls. I agree with them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Aaron, you've done an excellent job of being factually correct; while being completely on the wrong side of this issue. | |||
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Why would they say its unethical? Most of the guys I know are in the bush and unable to say much right now. I haven't heard anything about this. A few years back a few guys, including one poster here shot some really large elephant with Nixon Dzingai right on a park border and no one said anything about it being unethical. I'm trying to get my head around how shooting any one bull in a fair chase manner is any less ethical just because of a collar. I certainly see the PR side of it, and can sympathize with that. But just because the photo folks want them protected doesn't make them unethical to hunt. I would agree the aggravation over shooting one of them is more than I would want to put up with and that it will have an adverse effect on hunting...what I don't get is if the great tuskers are "national treasures" why don't they just say like SA does near Kruger? Why is a collared 100 pound bull a national treasure but an uncollared 100# bull not? | |||
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From the horse's mouth 19th April, 2018 OFFICIAL ZPHGA STATEMENT ON SECOND COLLARED ELEPHANT It is with deep regret that ZPHGA acknowledge the death of collared elephant of significance ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Not all animals are collared for scientific research. The lions Aaron referred to were indeed collared to be studied scientifically, and a big point of that collaring is to determine its fate. But most elephants aren't collared to determine their fate, certainly not if it's done by the organisation which manages the park, and not a research organisation. Those elephants are collared to monitor elephant movement so the management knows where to send scouts, if elephants are getting into areas where they get into conflict with people (crop raiding etc). I think that's a distinction which should be taken into account. | |||
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Aaron, you have aroused a question, were you told that certain elephants were off limits before you booked and paid money or after? Frankly, as far as I am concerned if I have a legal tag and am in a legal area, if it is the animal I want, I will shoot it tag or not as long as shoting a it is not beaking the law. Same with tusk size in this case, if I was not told before paying..... then told of the restrictions before going out at camp, there are going to be issues. I guess I hate PC and people who dont tell all the story up front. Was that your situation? | |||
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It could, but I also agree with Saeed below, because the only real sanction any association can impose is expulsion. And we both know what the outcome would be of requiring membership in a professional body in Africa. Now we have the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association. If membership were required to obtain a licence, you would then have the Zimbabwe Indigenous Professional Hunters and Guides Association, the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association (ZANU PF), The Zimbabwe Vegan Professional Hunters and Guides Association and God knows what else by the next day. They would all be controlled by politicians, all be recognised by National Parks because of it, and do absolutely nothing for upholding ethical behaviour.
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This is how I see it: All this arguing is too late now. All the ethics, legal, research etc… is out the window now. Unfortunately due to some irresponsible hunting all the arguments have become a waste of time now. If we would like to keep hunting Elephants in future, we have to PLAY THE GAME and don’t wind the Antis up by the actions of some of “selfish” individuals . Don’t give them anymore reasons to discredit us. – Simple Now we know the RULES, we must play by them as the downside does not look that attractive. There is simply no choice anymore for us. Sad. | |||
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Follow the money and political influence The whole situation seems to me is anti hunting effort We will be willified no matter what " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Yes sure, but it has been started by selfish & dumb individuals. If we keep doing the right thing from now we might just get a few more years out of it....... | |||
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PH’s don’t make the laws...they only follow them. Being in the bush does not stop coms like it used to and I have spoken with several. Why they consider it unethical: 1) The publicity is bad for all PH’s business in the long run. 2) The ones in Zim know FZ are fine with hunting and want to keep the relationship good. 3) All of them believe FZ contacted concession holder prior the bulls being killed and asked for them to not be. 4) It was well known by many that these bulls were there, they had been seen before, and even discussed. 5) Zim PHs pride themselves on Bushcraft and feel the whole “I didn’t see it” thing makes them look stupid. 6) They think the “I did not see it” was a lie. 7) They know how extremely rare these bulls are. 8) These 2 bulls were NOT collared for research, they were collared to protect them, and that was common knowledge. They as a group (ZPHGA) agree with that concept. 9) For a variety of circumstances...they don’t consider these bulls “fair chase.” 10) Successful parks are a critical for the survival of wildlife in Africa...they want these parks to be successful for photo-tourism...photo-tourism requires subjects to draw tourists. 11) Some...not all...look at these ele like the habituated camp-dwelling animals that many camps enjoy for viewing in the evening which many concessionaires maintain a hand-off. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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We keep giving in there will be no hunting but not for the reason many on here like to say. We keep giving in they keep going on and on trying to stop hunting. 1 or 22 or even thousands why do we now think it is right to pick certain ones live and others can die if hunted. Scary how people say hunting is done for certain reason but now we should change because of animal names or collars. I know some will pick based on there own likes but I can just hear when they try and stop cow ele hunting. Then we will hear all the reason why we need that. They will just keep picking away and we will keep giving in and then hunting will go away but not because of public opinion but because of the few crazy ones talked over us. Just amazing how so many like to buckle to anything that they think will make others happy while throwing follow hunters under the bus. Just for the record the first collared ele has nothing to do with laws here in the states as a Russian hunter did that and I can say with no doubt he could care less about USA laws. Have not heard who the last hunter was yet. | |||
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You hear it said that hunters are conservationists first. That hunters are true sportsmen. That hunters share a love of the outdoors and animals. If that is the truly the case, why would hunters begrudge an attempt to protect a literal handful of exceptional elephant bulls that spend the bulk of their lives in a national park for all people to experience and enjoy? This is not a situation where an organization was seeking to collar every bull elephant living in open concession areas that they could find to in some way make them "off limits". It is twenty large tusked bulls that live in a national park and occasionally wander out of the park. Selfish is good way to describe what happened here. And yet we wonder why hunters and hunting are vilified by the public. Mike | |||
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From the link above... Malipati Safari Area disbanded 23 APR, 2018 Tawanda Mangoma in Chiredzi Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority has agreed with Chiredzi Rural District Council to disband the community-run Malipati Safari Area in southern Chikombedzi following its incorporation under the Gonarezhou Conservation Trust. Malipati Safari Area used to benefit local villagers under the Communal Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources (campfire). Its disbanding was being stalled by haggling between Chiredzi RDC and Zimparks. Zimparks last year, sealed a deal with Frankfurt Zoological Society to transform the wildlife-rich Gonarezhou National Park at the same time disband all sport hunting facilities around the sanctuary. Addressing participants during a Chiredzi RDC full council meeting recently, council chair Alderman Edward Matsilele revealed the impending demolition of campsites in the Malipati Safari Area. “Malipati Safari Area issues have been concluded and hunting in the area has stopped completely. The camp is to be demolished by the end of next month because Zimparks has indicated that its continued presence is not in their plans,” said Alderman Matsilele. He said the Malipati community will be paid an undisclosed amount of money by the Gonarezhou Conservation Trust as compensation for the folding of Malipati Safari Area. “Meetings to distribute the pro-rata benefits from Malipati Safari Area have been convened involving Zimparks,Chiredzi RDC and the Sengwe Community Leadership. We expect the programme to be rolled out soon and a surveyor has been hired to resolve potential boundary disputes between Zimparks and some concession areas in Sengwe 2 and Sango Border Post,’’ said Ald Matsilele. Sources privy to the deal, revealed that the Malipati community was going to rake in $30 000 annually from Gonarezhou Conservation Trust for loss of hunting fees revenue in the wake of the closure of Malipati Safari Area. “When we attended meetings with Zimparks officials and Chiredzi RDC, the Malipati community was promised a $30 000 annual windfall from the Gonarezhou Conservation Trust and it was agreed that the money will be channelled towards community development,’’ said the source who preferring to remain anonymous. | |||
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Well, the first domino has fallen. Which area is next? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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I wonder who we have to thank for speeding this up? | |||
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Yes we knew about this, old news. It's a small area right up against the park station at mbalahoeta(spelling) it was part of Nixon's area and it was decided, begining of last year, it would for the time being, be swallowed up into the park and managed by fzs. I think it just dragged on a year because Nixon kicked up a legal stink. | |||
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No look, I was aware of how it worked in those situations before I went....I think the PH's were just confirming it to me upon arrival - so as not to have an issue in the field. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Hunters shoot dead second collared bull elephant outside Zim park
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