This is a romantic word that is bandied around too often. Not every area is a concession, however. A concession is an area, almost never fenced, owned by the state and leased to a safari operator for a defined time for the purpose of running commercial safaris. The areas are usually very large. There are concessions in Zambia, for example. The campfire areas in Zim could also be called concessions, although they are usually owned by local tribes and in some cases by politicians or their relatives. The majority of hunting today, esp. in SA and Namibia, takes place on privately owned properties, called ranches in TX but known locally as "game farms" in Southern Africa. The word farm is not very romantic, so the marketers sometimes call them concessions to evoke memories of Ruark novels. And no hunter with any red blood in his veins wants to tell his pals at work that he is going hunting on a farm, thus he is happy to throw the C word around in the company cafeteria. In some cases, several farms join together (usually dropping boundary fences but still fencing their outer boundaries) to form a "Conservancy". This is an agglomeration of game farms, in some cases there are no fences at all, but it's still not a concession. Some single farms also call themselves a "Conservancy" or "Reserve". The latter term is equivalent to the word "Park" in the usa, denoting an area devoted to wildlife where there is usually no commercial hunting (there may be culling) and tourism is usually limited to photographic safaris.

Concessions usually have lower game densities than farms, the game is more mobile, and there may be people living in the area. You are more likey to find dangerous game like elephant and lion in a concession, whereas these are very rarely found on a "farm" (and with good reason, elephants have no respect for fences and lions tend to eat the farmer's plains game...plus there are strict rules that apply if you want to run those species on your land).

Game on farms is not necessarily as tame as the word might imply. On the contrary, constant hunting pressure makes the animals quite skittish. And trophy quality can be very good, if the "farmer" manages his game counts properly. However, it can also be lousy (more often encountered on a cheap package hunt) if the farmer employs the "volume" approach to his operation. It's expensive to let an animal graze for five or more years before shooting it. In that same five years, you can shoot two barely mature animals, doubling your trophy fees. And if he is a good marketer and gets a lot of hunters, that calls for periodic "restocking" and the operation then becomes a "put and take" operation.

So hunters beware. Not every hunt takes place on a "concession"; trophy quality varies widely depending on hunting/poaching pressure and the carrying capacity of the land (state-owned land made available for hunting is by definition lousy farm land so the carrying capacity is usually quite low), and game counts can be very low at certain times of the year in real concessions; game farms usually have lots of animals, in some cases because hunting quotas are scientifically managed, and in others because game is "replenished" periodically; and if that package deal seems very cheap, chances are you will be shooting modest trophies that may be as new to the area as you are.

I call it the sport show sales pitch. Outfitters and Booking agents have two or three minutes to baffle you with bull! Before you go on to the next booth. I have found South Africans are the worst at abusing the term "Our Concessions" and claiming to having huge 100,000+ ranches. I love to to push their buttons by asking for the Legal names of "Your" concessions.

Namibian outfitters and booking agents all so love to point out they are part of huge "Conservancies" implying they have a huge hunting areas at their disposal. They know given the choice most hunters will book a hunt on a huge "Conservancy" over a larger ranch. But most of the time it's a play on words. Being part of a million acre conservancy doesn't allways give you a million acres to hunt.

Russ this is a good topic, Thanks for bring it up.

I do not dipute that the word concession is a term losely used however in Namibia there are legitimate areas that qualify as concessions. namely government auctioned areas and communal conservancies.

There are two types of conservancies in Namibia and one should not be confused with the other.
The first is as Messrs. Gould and Johnson have pointed out are a conglomeration of privately owned farms that have been registered as a conservancy may be unfenced in the middle of the area.
The other type is communal conservancy on traditional land where the local communities have registered with the Ministry of Environment and Tourism as a conservancy. They have to submit a mandate including management and benefit plans for the area. The plans are for example, marking and marketing hunting and tourism areas to the respective industries, game counts and applications of quotas, core or breeding areas, water points or pans, planned distribution of benefits, etc.

These communal conservancy areas are mostly unfenced except for the odd core area where they may be used to re-introduce or add to the population of certain species. These areas in each of their particular geographical position often have species such as Lion, Elephant, Hippo, croc and black Rhino ranging freely in, through and/or around them in addition to other plains game species.
There are currently 42 communal conservancies with almost 120 000 members over 10.3 million hectares (22.6 million acres).
9 of these conservancies have agreements with hunting outfitters in Namibia.
Figures quoted by Chris Weaver WWF/LIFE program Namibia.

This is an interesting subject to debate, and (IMHO) it all comes down to a persons perception and the use of words and terminology ...

These are my non technical laymans thoughts about the subject as from Country to country often different words are used to mean the same thing ...

A Hunting Farm or Ranch or Conservancy are generally all the same broad based places where there is either a perimeter fence of some sort or other defined natural boundery such as mountain range or river or similar ... These ranches do (vary in size) and the species they hold BUT essentillay provided they are not 500 acre game pens they are to all intents and purposes fair chase hunting. It can off cource be debated as to what is fair chase hunting BUT a lot of uninformed people often tend to equate all ranches to be (canned or penned hunting) which of cource is incorect.

Concessions or GMA's or government land or hunting blocks are essentially the same thing really, as an operator has to get a licence to be able to take hunters to hunt on these areas. They are almost always non fenced open hunting lands of considerable land area BUT it does not in reality ( always mean) these areas are any more fair chase than some game ranches are as a lot of wild animals are terrotorial and they dont wander around for hundreds of kilometers from there favoured area, they tend to stay where feed and water are located so this Fair Chase word can be misleading at times when applied to ranch hunting per se.

At the end of the day there are game ranches that get hunted out and depleted and there are great wide open concessions areas or hunting blocks that also get hunted out and depleted, so we need to be very careful when we start to define hunting areas in the context of what might be fair chase I believe !!

Wow, Russ and Robert thanks for taking the time to educate us ignorant Africans in the correct use of the English language. As English is not my mother tongue, I sometimes get confused with the complicated terminology, with special reference here to words such as “concessions†and “conservanciesâ€. When I’m short on cash, I will try to willfully deceive a foreigner with the misapplication of romantic words to lure them into my “hunting penâ€, by marketing it as a “conservancy†or a “concessionâ€. I have now been aptly educated and exposed. Thanks, and good luck with your commendable quest to enlighten the ignorant.

But don’t stop with us. Please make the deceiving bunch at the Merriam-Webster Dictionary the next target for your missionary work. Educate or expose them! Just look at the horrid ways in which they define your sacred words: “concession†and “conservancyâ€. http://www.m-w.com/

According to their ignorant understanding, or malicious intend, they want unsuspecting people to believe the following:

“Concession†- (1) : a grant of land or property especially by a government in return for services or for a particular use (2) : a right to undertake and profit by a specified activity (3) : a lease of a portion of premises for a particular purpose;

You see, their irresponsible definition may lead people to think that a “concession†might, or may not be government land exclusively. It may also lead people to erroneously reason that if a non-landowner gets the right from a landowner to undertake and profit by a specified activity, such as hunting on the land in question, the non-landowner was granted a “concessionâ€. He might then also think he is conducting his business on a “concession†– how gullible can us African outfitters be!

They also provide a very inaccurate and incomplete definition for a “conservancyâ€, by merely defining it as 1 a board regulating fisheries and navigation in a river or port, 2 a: conservation b: an organization or area designated to conserve and protect natural resources. Very ignorant them! They don’t even stipulate that a “conservancy†is nothing but a US “parkâ€.

Once you’ve done educating or exposing those Merriam-Webster guys, please focus your attention on the various African legislators, who’s definitions of “concessionsâ€, “conservancy†and “reserve†will not pass your stringent criteria for the correct use of the English language. Thank you very much esteemed gentlemen, thank you very much you wise elders – please grant your humble, very ignorant, highly deceiving African PH & Outfitter the right to leave your valued virtual chamber of education. Thank you sirs!

Riaan,

Well said.

Les

I take it we stepped on a nerve. Tell me you must use one of these terms to describe your hunting areas, Which one is it? Concessions, Reserve or Conservancy? Sorry I offended you, I just think honesty is like pregnancy, You are or your not. There is no middle ground

Jissie boet,
Your should run for office, at least Naledi Pandor's portfolio...!

True true, there is sometimes a bit of 'missionary' work evident. Glossing over of opinions based on geography, as you have posted before. Often too much misinformation and the flow of oral shite from people with minimal fact backing.....
Cheers

I've always understood a 'concession' to meet a lease or a temporary grant of non-owned land ie campfire area, communal lands, gov't safari area etc.

Usually a larger area is the mental image and definitely not a smallish high fenced private property!

Just my impression and opinion but they certainly seem to fit the historical usage.

Balla Balla,

I beleive that the thread was addressing the term concession and not questioning "fair chase".

Vaughan

I fully understand that and dont disagree with you at all,

BUT just (out of public interest) I have added in more information than might in fact be applicable as some hunters get (weak at the knees) when someone mentions a ranch hunt, so I just wanted to preclude and pre-empt the people whom might wrongly perceive what fair chase might be ...

So in summary, just ignore my fair chase comment and leave it there for nostalgia and to explain to those whom might not quite understand, as when we talk broadly about concession and ranches that ( fair chase) subject often comes up

Cheers, Peter ( languishing downunder )

Robert,

Please help me to understand your point.

Concession: If I am granted the right to undertake hunting for profit on land that I do not own, is the “granting†of the “right†a “concession†to me?

Further more, is it correct for me to refer to this piece of land as “my concession†for the period of time I have been granted the right to undertake a profiting activity on the said land?

Where can I find your criteria regarding what should qualify as a concession? If I understand you correctly, there must be certain very specific requirements, e.g., be of a certain size, belong (or not belong) to someone specific, be unfenced and be situated in a specific country.

What is the “Legal names of ... concessions.� Is there a registry somewhere, to file the deeds and titles of “concessions? Does this registry then allocate “Legal names†to the various registered concessions?

Am I in the wrong to refer to one of my hunting areas as a “reserve†if in fact that specific piece of land is by law proclaimed to be a “reserveâ€, and enjoys specific privileges and has certain obligations also stipulated by local legislation?

If I am granted hunting rights in an area designated to conserve and protect natural resources, may I refer to this area as a “conservancyâ€, or will I then fail the Johnson-pregnancy-test-of-honesty?

NitroX, I can understand that anyone can have a “mental image, based on a historical usage†of a particular word. But which it then correct – all the various individual “mental imagesâ€, or proclaimed designations, supported by respected dictionary definitions?

What is the deal with a “concession store� Would the owner of such a business be a holder of any “concession�

The “nerve†that has been stepped on just once to often, is not one conceived in semantic differences. I’m just fed up to the brim with people using this forum (the one that I frequent from time to time), as a soapbox to discredit anything South African.

For the most part, and please correct me if I’m wrong, South African posters have been courteous, frank and helpful, while swallowing a lot of trash born from ignorance and hypocritical statements. I don’t claim South Africans to be more honest, ethical or mentally superior to any other nationality, but some here would want to make the world believe that we are by far inferior on all accounts. Often the same people get highly upset when someone scratches just a little to close to their own dung piles.

Maybe South Africans are at fault for turning the other cheek to often. Maybe there’s just no place on an Internet forum for people wanting to be civil, judging others as individuals – and expecting the same in return. So fine, if this is the place to rip other to shreds – let the ripping begin. I’ll take part in the ripping contest for as long as my time or interest allows. Fair, ain’t it?

Just two things to say about this business.....
1. In Ethiopia Controlled Hunting Area and Concession mean the same thing and
2. What Riaan said.

Rich Elliott

so what you guys are all saying is that some people use some words to deceive some people - wow - go figure

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
so what you guys are all saying is that some people use some words to deceive some people - wow - go figure

No I dont believe that BUT some people dont realize that around the world some words spelt the same have different meanings ..

A prime example is here in NZ a (rubber) is what we use to erase writing from a piece of note paper when we make a mistake, but in the USA it might have another meaning, which of cource you chaps will all know that !!

Cheers, dont forget the eraser, it may save a mistake (-:

Peter

Most hunting in South africa takes place on privately owned Game farms and or Ranches. There is no question it's easier to market these ranches by calling them game reserves or concessions. Like Russ said nobody wants to tell the guys at work their going to africa to hunt on a farm! Yes there are true government hunting concessions in South Africa, Klaserie, Timbavati, Umbabaat , Makuleke . Letaba.. just to name a few. Competition for most government concessions extremely high. Hunts on most government concession command prices that rival Tanzania!

If you ways tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said! It's a slippery slope once you start to embellish.


At the end of the day it comes down to one thing. What are you willing to do / say to market your hunts ?

Russ and Robert,

I think people took offense to the way it was stated, not what was stated.

Yes, any deceptive practice in advertising is unethical.

Russ, your post has a bitter tone to it. What were you trying to convey? Were you just warning people or suggesting that they do more research?

Dear Robert,

It is clear that logical debate is a skill way beyond your ability. I was raised to be kind towards people with disabilities. So please pardon me for exposing your handicap so crudely. I did not realize the severity of your condition.

Knowing what we know now, us South Africans guys will have more compassion for you when you suffer one of your South African-bashing-fitful-attacks. Please try not to hurt yourself when the seizure over powers you.

Goodbye now little Robert


Wendell,

Yes, the tone was definitely offensive, and I still fail to see why the definitions of the Merriam Webster Dictionary is not applicable?

I fully agree that deceptive practice in advertising is unethical, but the “deceptiveness†must be proved with objective facts, and exposed by rational argument – not just accused with manic ranting and raving.

Well said Riaan!!

Although I offer hunts on "farms" (averaging about 15 000 acres and bigger), "conservancies" (starting at about 20 000 acres), and "real concessions", i believe that as long as the prospective client knows what he is letting himself into, what is the problem? I have never felt that I have cheated a client, in fact, i always believe that he/ she has left with a true African experience. I would rather hunt RSA and Namibia's "farms", (and I mean hunt, walk and stalk, the proper way), than shoot animals at waterholes, at night, in a huge unfenced area, or a "real concession."

Riaan,

Yes, my point exactly.

I am not sure who he is pointing a finger at ...

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:


Russ, your post has a bitter tone to it. What were you trying to convey? Were you just warning people or suggesting that they do more research?

If you read my post, I think the bias if any is toward ranch hunts, with the caveat that the client checks the game management practices and trophy quality. And my intention, as someone who now lives in the USA having spent the first half of my life in Africa, was to help the paying clients in the USA develop a better understanding of the different types of hunting property so they can avoid being disappointed. Most would like to hunt in a large unfenced area with real wild, naturally-reproducing game, such as those described in Ruark's novels. I would guess that 90% of foreign hunters, when told they are going to hunt in a "concession", have that expectation (regardless of what the dictionary says...in the context of African hunting the word concession has a specific meaning and we all know that). But it seems that many contemporary PHs and safari outfitters are starting to use the word to describe a private game farm leased by the owner to a PH for commercial hunts. According to the dictionary, that is not an incorrect usage, but in practice, it is misleading to prospective clients, and to American clients in particular. When these folks hear the word "concession", they are not expecting to hunt on a fenced ranch of a few thousand acres, regardless of whether the PH owns or leases the property.

For the record, we send clients to high-fenced ranches in Botswana, SA and Namibia, to conservancies in Zim and Namibia, and to concessions in Zim and Moz. All offer good hunting, with the ranches being easier hunts generally and more suited to the hunter who doesn't have 21 days to hunt. In any case, we make sure they know the difference before they plunk down their money.

Now if anyone's post tastes of stomach acid, it's not mine but rather some of the follow-up posts. Boy, talk about hot buttons! And sarcasm! Personally, I like my PH's to be easy-going, I spend the rest of the year with uptight people!

This is an interesting post.
I don't Quite understand the problem with hunting on farms in Africa, when the best hunting for most species in North America is also on farms. I for one would love to have access to large farms here in Alberta to hunt, but alas I only have access to a few small areas. I think the whole naming thing is kind of silly, If I am hunting a farm, or concession, or conservancy, as long as the animal has a chance, I have to hunt it, what difference does it make. How is hunting over a waterhole any diferrent than a treestand over a trail between bedding and feeding areas?

Russ,

Even the most easy-going person, PH or otherwise, will get “uptight†if pushed too far – especially when unfairly discredited in public. I make no excuse for having said enough is enough.

Now you seem like a reasonable guy, please tell me if you can understand why I became uptight when reading the following:

“The word farm is not very romantic, so the marketers sometimes call them concessions to evoke memories of Ruark novels.â€

The implication of the above is that prospective clients are willfully being deceived. Is this the message that you wanted to convey? “Watch out for a South African outfitter using the word “concessionâ€, as he is trying to hoodwink you.â€???

In your original post, you provide your views of what the meaning should be of the words “concession, conservancy and reserveâ€. Russ that’s what a dictionary is for, to provide universal and standardized definitions for specified words. It is not acceptable to discredit people that prefer dictionary definitions in favor of your definitions.

If you want to help people get a better understanding of the terminology used, start with universally accepted and standardized definitions, as provided by respectable dictionaries. If you feel that people have a misconception as to the appropriate use of a specific word, help them to understand the correct meaning of that word. Don’t enforce their misconceptions, and then try to discredit those using the relevant words correctly.

To much is being made about the deceptiveness of South African outfitters, to the point where everyone is viewed with suspicion, mostly unfairly. I agree that unscrupulous people should be exposed – but then we should target the offender with specific and provable allegations. Don’t paint everyone with a broad accusational brush, placing even the most straightforward under suspicion.

Does my point of view make sense to you? I truly have no desire to be unreasonably offensive, but can be counted on to become defensive if need be. If I had my way, all discussions here would be conducted in the same relaxed and civil atmosphere found around a campfire.

Regards to all.

Riaan

You talk a lot of sense Bwana ...

Just to prove my point of how words can be misinterpreted ..

When I say to you go the Cheetahs, I guess a lot of the guests will think I am a bit bonkers.

Cheers and all the best in sunny SA

Peter ( from Hurricanes territory )

Well said Riaan. It was about time that some things was put in perspective.

I also don't know why some posters have such a big problem with hunting ranches is RSA. They have a problem with high fences. In Tanzania huge areas is burnt before the hunting season. New grass starts growing and all the animals flock to enjoy the new sprouts. By the time the hunters come the animals are there for the taking. No tall grass to hinder the hunters sight and plenty of animals. How is that for real wilderness hunting. Isn't it just another high fenced area? Instead of wire they use fire.

In RSA there are a lot of "farms" where you won't even know that you are on a farm.

I agree with Riaan, we must just live with everything that is said about us by certain posters. If you don't like hunting in RSA that is OK, but why must there always be something negatively said about RSA.

Most outfitters and ph's I know work their butts off for their clients and the last thing they think of is deceiving their clients.

BTW, I also refer to the areas I hunt with my clients as concessions and I tell my clients the size of it.

Quote
Concession: If I am granted the right to undertake hunting for profit on land that I do not own, is the “granting†of the “right†a “concession†to me?
No! the only right you my have is to uses the concession conditionally for one hunt, for more hunts, for 1 week or for 10 years, exclusive or not etc.
Quote
Further more, is it correct for me to refer to this piece of land as “my concession†for the period of time I have been granted the right to undertake a profiting activity on the said land?
No! if i use your car it is still your car? Same here you can use it but you don’t own it.

Quote
Where can I find your criteria regarding what should qualify as a concession?.....
In regards to hunting concessions it is going back to the pioneering old east african professional hunters which had hunting concession allocated by the government of the day. Quote
What is the “Legal names of ... concessions.� Is there a registry somewhere, to file the deeds and titles of “concessions? Does this registry then allocate “Legal names†to the various registered concessions?
Yes. A lease contract stipulating for what area / use / time period
Quote
Am I in the wrong to refer to one of my hunting areas as a “reserve†if in fact that specific piece of land is by law proclaimed to be a “reserveâ€, and enjoys specific privileges and has certain obligations also stipulated by local legislation?
No if the area is a recognized and registered reserve but if you don’t own it you cannot call it yours!Riaan the problem is 99% home made, South African.
If we would clean up our house no one would step on your nerve. You cannot ignore that there are a excessive share of rotten apples in South Africa more than anywhere, partly because, we flooding the market with 2 week qualification PH's which biggest ambition is to have a new land cruiser complete with hunting frame, winch, a 458Lott, “sunshades’ ,elephant hair bracelet and lion claws around the neck.
What can you aspect to come out of this environment?? Where is the tradition and ethics which made the old White hunters of east Africa respected and famous??
Do not forget that South Africa never had a big tradition of sport hunting develop like east Africa and safari hunting started much later and was never be comparable to east Africa so we don’t have the tradition and ethics embedded within the safari hunting.
A part of the SA PH living off the BS, lots of them never learned a trade or have any recognized qualification, still they still have to pay the bills and have to maintain an image. I am sure you came across them?
Why is the majority of BS, fraud, dishonesty and un-ethical business practice i came across involving South Africans? Only from within we can better the image of the South African hunting industry abroad.
Ask yourself about the lion hunting issue living were you are you should know better! What about “green hunts†how many times rhinos get darted per year never mind rhino “hunting†frozen leopards and cheetahs. Cutting fences from national parks, drugged animals for shooting, spotlight hunting etc very “creative invention†from South Africa!
Just be happy that the public don’t know half of what’s going on! And we don’t want to do the dirty washing on a public forum?
Perhaps it is time to call a spade a spade. You don’t call a game farm a concession and you know this very well. Except if you want to misled clients. If you want to deal with international clients then you have to accept international standards and wording.
If I would offer you’re a farm for sale and on arrival you find out is a plot do you think this is right?
Go to any hunting show / websites and add all the claimed concession and hunting areas up to belonging to xyz outfitter,, you end up with a piece of land bigger then the whole continent! If this is not BS then I don’t know? There is nothing wrong with hunting on game farms or admitting that you use land for hunting which is not yours clients will respect this. The whole issue is not if you can hunt ethical in SA it is about correct advertising. I does not matter what size or how high the fence is. It is the way the hunt is conducted ethical or not on the piece of land.
There is nothing wrong stating true fully we hunt on various game farms of X size and have the hunting rights on x Ha conservancies and X Ha communal or tribal Land??? State clearly what a client can aspect and don’t come with claims of “MY†if you don’t own it. Clients will pick out the different quickly between an honest offer and the marketing BS what is going on now.
We see now what happens once the government gets involved in the regulation of the hunting industry it’s a shame that we didn’t clean up our self but this is the old story no one wants to do anything.

Relax and good hunting

"frozen leopards and cheetahs"?

Never heard that one before. What does that entail?

freischuetz
I mostly agree with you regarding your comment of locally qualified SA PH's, but as you say this might not be the forum for that. Just one comment on it, I believe that 80% of the DG qualified PH's in SA are as good or better than other countries PH's/ outfitters. Without this qualification, I think the Namibian term "hunting guide" is a more apt term, or maybe even better, the Zim term "learner PH". That aside, I do not agree with your definition of concession. For instance, I have the exclusive hunting right on a 17 000 ha property, with about 1500 or more game animals on it. This property does not belong to me, but no one may hunt there, or even be there without my written consent, excluding the owners of course. We have a legal contract stating the above, and I really cannot see how the word concession is misleading in this instance. Because it is privately owned, and not state owned or tribal/ trust land, it is not a hunting concession? I doubt it.

Karl

I agree with you that the Name Professional Hunter is today outdated the group of people we talking about are professional Guides. Professional hunters are problem animal hunters which are commercially hunt these animals (lynx, jackal etc) in days gone by you had PH’s which hunted commercially meat for mining companies and big estates operating away from civilisation to feed the labour forces and crocodile and ivory hunters. These are the professional hunters.
In east Africa when safari hunting started we talked about white hunters this was changed later in to Professional Hunters ( more political correct?)

I do not agree that SA qualified DG PH,’s are better generally I think there is just not enough DG hunting in RSA under natural condition. I don’t have the figure on how many PH’s are qualified on DG but I seen a fair selection of them in the field and I am not impressed. Yes there some good ones but not enough.
Regarding the concession issue Karl the normal understanding, forget for a moment RSA, describe areas of great size without fences. Now if we start talking size we talk of 1000KM/2 plus this are about the minimum you will find as real hunting concession in Africa look at the Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Zambia.
Concession starting at around 100 000 ha up to 1 700 000 ha if this is practical is a other question. There is no client which could hunt all of any of this concession and if you got 17 000 ha to hunt you can keep him busy for weeks without going to the same place twice.
Smaller areas can be managed better and more effective, infrastructure is better and more dense, trophy quality is normally better (if better proper managed) In all there are lots of advantages in hunting this places. The real different comes in when you talk about lion elephant and buffalo and perhaps hippo because of limited carrying capacity and necessary fencing expenses to stock and the slow grow to trophy size.

We all know the difference take of clients if you mention concession instead of game farm educate the clients that even if he hunts in a huge concession he wont see more then 10-20% of this huge concession in any case.
You now they call a 1400 Nissan a truck in SA. Its about the same as a MACK? After all truck is truck!
South African have to market what they got and this is plenty of good hunting in a controlled intensive managed environment.

Good hunting

freishuetz
I did not mean to imply they are better qualified, only that you do get as good as other countries. BTW, most of my own DG experience was in Zimbabwe and Namibia. Also, I prefer to call a 1400 Nissan a bakkie, but then again, my Cruiser is also a bakkie, and I refer to it as a car (hunting car if you must.) You will find that most Namibians refer to any vehicle that has four wheels, as a "kar"/ car. However, if we stick to the dictonary, Riaan remains correct. If we stick to romantic nostalgia, you are correct. IMO if a outfitter does have the legal documents/ long term lease of the land, he can refer to that land as "his concession." After all, the SA and Namibian law does state that a long term lease of land does give the lessee about the same rights to that land, if stated as such in the leasing contract.
All in all, I think we are discussing grammar, and not outfitter's / PH honesty. How about a seperate post for that?

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

If we would clean up our house no one would step on your nerve. You cannot ignore that there are a excessive share of rotten apples in South Africa more than anywhere, partly because, we flooding the market with 2 week qualification PH's which biggest ambition is to have a new land cruiser complete with hunting frame, winch, a 458Lott, “sunshades’ ,elephant hair bracelet and lion claws around the neck.

This reminds me of some pics I have seen here recently...

Karl
Namibia or Sűdwest is a totally different kettle of fish. Hunting and Hunters are based on the German tradition / system of hunting.
Lots of difference to South Africa Germany is the only country where the law refers to the written and unwritten law in regards to ethics, and transgression against this laws can and will cost your license. And we talking about hunting license not PH license. And yes they have some fenced areas called “Gatter†and some people shoot there but they afraid to admit it because it is not hunting. You will find fenced in area in the forest but this is to protect the young trees from deer!

Based on the German influence in Namibia development of the hunting industry was different to South Africa. Other factors also count, basically every ones know everyone and if you do something wrong you get punish one way or the other.
Control from within that is the answer!

Regarding concession if you got the lease yes you can say it’s yours but in dealing with US hunters they refer to this land areas normally as land lease ! Let’s agree on this that we got different opinion on concessions.

And we don’t want to start a post on dishonest PH / Outfitters and Booking agencies I got a hunting season ahead of me and this subject is a barrel without floor!

quote:

The implication of the above is that prospective clients are willfully being deceived. Is this the message that you wanted to convey? “Watch out for a South African outfitter using the word “concessionâ€, as he is trying to hoodwink you.â€???

Yes, in many cases. Perhaps unintentionally in a few cases.

I think the problem here may be that Afrikaans speakers rely too much on the dictionary. Ek se vir jou man, vir eens en vir als, die woord "concession" het n spesifieke betekenis in verband met jag: groot area sonder omheining, wat deur die regering aan n safari-maatskappy gehuur is.

So if you use the word, be aware that the vast majority of American hunters will interpret it in the Ruark way.

Same thing applies to American hunters who use the word concession when recounting their hunt (or their plans for a hunt) to their buddies. Many first-timers are just innocently repeating what their PH told them in Reno. However, some first timers and quite a few old hands who know better use the word because it sounds a lot more romantic than farm or ranch. "We were hunting on this concession in the Limpopo Valley, tight up against the Zimbabwe border, when we found this huge leopard track....".

My intention is not to reform those who deceive, whether it be for prestige or profit. The character of those people is beyond my influence. Rather my intention is to help the unsuspecting and well-intentioned on both sides understand that the word is sometimes misused or interpreted to mean something other than the speaker's intention, VS THE NORMAL INTERPRETATION.

I don't want to hear what the dictionary says....we are talking about the use of the word in a specific context here. Wonder what the dictionary says about the word TROPHY??

Surely it is plain to see that concession means an understanding between parties regarding commercial rights or access or an agreement where commercial rights are leased for the concessionaire to undertake their operation with the permission of and under the guidelines of the land owner or facility owners?

This just seems obvious regardless of what your nationality is, god gert man! What a load of kak about this and that...See below-

A) For expample XYZ Safaris in Mozambique has a concession on Coutdada ABC. They hold the concession to hunt (i.e. conduct their business) with permission and under regulation for the owners (Moz gov). Substitite any other example (and please don't right to me with long rant about specific laws in each country, thats not the point...just making an example)

B) Example. I have an agreement/contract to hunt on 5 acres of land owned by one Mr. CockandBalls. I fence it and drug deer for Jimmy Houston to shoot.
I have concession on those 5 acres. That piece of land is my concession area. 'I rent the space' to conduct my business with the agreement and input from the actual owner, who is not me.

C) example, when at a sports match I feel hungry and go to the 'concession stand' to buy a hotdog from Bobs LipsandAss Fast Foods. Bob has the concession to conduct his bussiness in that sports area owned by someone else. He is a concession holder. Just the like the two businesses above.

I was excited when I saw the concession stand at the match as I thought they were selling large tracts of unfenced African real estate ...if thats what concession means.

Many game lodges all over Africa are concession holders.....an agreement to use land they don't own to conduct their hospitality business and access land for activites. (Concessionaires.)

The term concession in HUNTING PARLANCE has come to be misconstrued as meaning a large unfenced piece of gov land but that is not actually what it means.........
The whole world does not operate on hunter-talk alone.
I don't know why this so difficult to grasp.

Yes thats what people think it means but dictionaries aside, that is not what it actually means. You can have a logging concession, fishing concession, lollipop concession.....

If you have a contractual aggreement to hunt a ranch/Pvt Reserve in SA, that is your concession, by definition of the word.

Ruark is rolling his eyes at this bunfight over romaticism!!

Yes, I realise it has come be interpreted differently by many in the safari industry but different and really insignificant mis-interpretation is NO reason to attack operators doing good work or a country, nationality blah blah!

My donder Sarel.....

Sak Sarel, julle raak nou rof!

Stop the band, the party is getting rough!

I suppose I'm guilty as I have used the word "concession' when talking to fellow hunters and just plain people too I suppose. I admit I wasn't aware of how big a sin I was committing and will endeavor to not do it in the future. I had been under the misunderstanding that a 'concession' just pertained to a lease hold or exclusive hunting rights area of land. It must be my education cause I'm only a college graduate with a BS and no advanced degrees. It could be my intellect as the last time I was checked my IQ was around 140, but in my 72 years that has probably diminished also. I have only been on 8 safaris and have a narrow view of African hunting. I really am sorry and will try in the future not to rely on the dictionary for a concise explanation of words as I should know everyone has the right to make them mean exactly what THEY want them to mean. Again I apologize to all I have mislead.

Russ

Thank you for starting this thread. While it has put a few noses out of joint, it has also made it very clear that anyone booking a hunt should ask very specific questions regarding the hunting area. Is the area fenced, if yes high or low? Is the property privately owned? Is it owned by the government? Is it tribal land? Do you have the exclusive rights to hunt it? How large is the area? Are any of the animals stocked, or managed?
I can go on, but the main point is that we, the consumer, should make it our responsibility to make the seller fully disclose the nature of the hunting experience that they are offerring. It is clear that the seller may be quite willing to describe the experience that he is offerring in gramtically correct, but misleading, terms. The debate here clearly demonstrates that. The definitions that you cite are those which any hunter would use in the context of a hunting trip. They are the expectations that any of us would have if we were sold a hunt on a "concession", "consevency" or "game ranch or farm".
I have hunted 3 times on a consession; NG20, in the Okavango Delta, and once on a private ranch. In each case the outfitter made what he was selling clear. The concession was discribed as such and had no fences or stocked game. I was offerred the chance to hunt on Clive's ranch, not his "concession". The ranch was fenced, the game herds were managed. I appreciated the honesty. In each case I knew what I was buying and enjoyed the experience. The result; next year the first person that I'll talk to about 2008 is Clive. He was clear as to what he was selling and delivered it. Had he painted a picture of his "concession" and sold me a hunt on his ranch, then I would have no interest in doing business with him again. I could care less what the dictionary says the definition of concession is, in the context of hunting, it doesn't include a fenced game farm, or ranch. If you sell me a concession, than I expect a concession, if you are selling a ranch hunt, than I expect you to call it a ranch hunt. If you don't, than you can quote all the dictionaries in the world and still not get me to come back, refer another hunter, or speak positively about the hunt.
This applies to any hunt, not only those in RSA or Africa. By the way, the hunting club where I hunt whitetails in South Carolina uses local farmland as the hunting sites. The owner doesn't say he has a concession, he says that he has the hunting rights to the property. I will be returning to hunt with him this fall for the 4th time
Truth in advertising, it works.


TerryR

TerryR summed it all up quite nicely.

Yes TerryR did sum it up very nicely IMHO

Just one thing that was ommitted ... If you are an American Hunter in Zimbabwe please check that whomever is getting the HARD CURRENCY can put in writing that they have absolutuly no assocition in any way shape or form with any of those so called undesirables on the blacklist of people, or the deck of cards people that the USA government has formally and legally declared as persona no grata. It is a big deck of cards, much greater in fact than the Iraq deck of 55 hit list ..

I think the Zimbabwe deck of cards at last count was around 80+ with Comrade Mugabe as the Joker & the man with the note printing press (-:

Cheers, Peter

Several people commented at one point including Peter(Balla Balla) on the very definitions that have been brought forth on previous posts. I didn't word my response well to anothers post and with some clarifacation from others several people benifited. It is helpful for the beginning hunter to understand the differences between a particular areas hunting styles and where they are going to be hunting. North American hunters, me included, have been fooled into thinking we were going to be on private land, only to find out we were on public land once we arrived and ran into several other hunters. While abrasive to some, this thread brought to light what many new hunters to Africa don't know. If a guy books a hunt and knows what he's getting into, he's going to be a great reference. If on the other hand, shows up expecting one thing and get's something entirely different he'll be a bad reference. Buyer beware, but being up front helps fit the hunt to the consumer. Unfortunately it is human nature to lump people or areas into a group. This site is a great tool though, the recommendations of many of the hunters here prove invaluable to new people looking for an outfit to book with. Where else would you find this much hunting knowledge in one group?