The following is taken from the SafariBwana website -

South Africa revisited!

So I’ve been a bit hard on the South African PH’s lately and as one of my subscribers put it, “do you have no shame!, your name is Swanepoel and you live in Cape Town?â€

Well yes I do have compassion for the country and its massive contribution towards habitat and wildlife restoration, but I do NOT care much about exposing what really does go on in South Africa when it comes to the hunting of Africa's largest predator.

In fact there has been such a hubbub recently over the issue of “canned†and “put and take†hunting that the industry stands on the verge of a tough legislative mountain. While I advocate that not enough dialogue was entered into between the Nature Conservation authorities and the well established hunting industry before the draft legislation was drawn up, I also firmly believe there was not enough self regulation on the part of the hunting industry.

The cornerstone of the massive rejuvenation of wildlife in South Africa has been the principle of placing the ownership of game, usually vested in the hands of the president, into that of private hands. This has enabled growth in the industry beyond compare and no matter what any greenie says, hunting has been the most influential factor in this conservation revolution.

Yet this privatization, although revolutionary, also resulted in loopholes and abuse where massive profits clouded out any sane hope of self-regulation. Now the industry stands in the firing line and it seems likely that the face of hunting in South Africa is about to change on many fronts. I say it is about time!

here's a true story....

We hunt Lion in South Africa based on a ranch which runs along the boundary with Botswana. You see, Botswana has many Lions, in fact they have a problem with them and each year cattle ranchers have to eliminate hundreds of them. We are fortunate enough to know some of these cattle ranch owners and they keep in contact with us on a regular basis. Usually it is not more than a week before a lion appears on their ranch after their cattle and they call us immediately and let us know so that we can pass on this deal to you, our most prestigious client. Botswana has magnificent Lion, you’ve seen the pictures of those beasts they shot last year, this is the quality of Lion you can expect.

OK, what I suggest is that we book 10 days at a proper game ranch near the Botswana border, they have a lot of other game to hunt and a comfortable lodge. Then we put out the word to the local cattle ranches that you want a Lion and, I’m serious here, it will not be more than 2-3 days before they pick up a track. They’ll call us immediately and we’ll get there pronto and with our expert bushman trackers we follow the Lion on foot. This can be very dangerous and nerve wracking, the Lion here are fearless and often we have had to shoot a charging beast

Yes, they are usually large nomadic males who have been ousted from their prides by younger stronger boys, so they go after the cattle, an easier target for an old Lion on his own.

No I don’t have a fixed trophy fee for you, you see the price depends upon the age or size of the mane, you know, the older and more impressive the male the higher the fee BUT you will not mind paying this once the MGM maned beast is down, or do you have a budget in mind, sometimes we have more than one lion in the area. Seriously we can more or less put our “@$@# on a block†you’ll shoot a black maned male, they’re Botswana Lions they’re known as the biggest in Africa!

NO of course not! We don’t do that but beware of these canned hunts which other people offer in South Africa with Zoo Lions, yes I mean it zoo lions. The Lions we hunt are nomads which have turned into problem animals on the borders and if you don’t shoot them then the cattle rancher will poison them. You know these are wild because we find the tracks on unfenced land, usually early in the morning and then we follow on foot, and sometimes get charged by the animal, what zoo lion is going to do that!

how the king of beasts was bagged....
I’m standing in the darkness of the Kalahari dawn outside my clients chalet door. I’ve just come from seeing the ranch owner and have confirmed all is set, we are on track, the cat is ready for us. I confirmed again, as we had done the night before, this was the big male and that it was a black maned beast. The owner had looked at me wearily as he stirred sugar into his coffee, he had driven through the night to get here and now his look told me not to push any further on this issue, he had found the cat, it was ready what more did I want.

I knocked hard on the chalet door, paused a moment and then shouted ‘John wake up, wake up, we have a phone call from one of the cattle ranches,… seems a lion crossed into his property late last night, he heard a single male roaring…..I think this is our Lion’

While we are grabbing a quick cup of coffee and toast I hear a truck pulling into the lodge, the ranch owner jumps out and repeats the story to us, he is impatient he wants to go, the trackers and the dogs are ready, the Lion may move back to Botswana at any minute, lets do it guys.

We drive for half an hour crossing out of the high fenced game ranch onto a low fenced property which we are told is the cattle ranch were the Lion was heard. The Kalahari sand makes difficult driving you have to keep a reasonable speed which we do for another 20 minutes bouncing around on the back of the truck. Suddenly a small figure appears in the track ahead, a tiny wizened comical man jumping up and down in the road as if we have not seen him and his half breed dog straddled across the road in the early morning sun.

The farmer barks a few words to him in Afrikaans, ‘you little bastard you were lying in the sun like your dog, sleeping’ and he laughs back ‘yes boss it was damn cold when you dropped me off an hour ago’ he points into the bush and the farmer looks at the client in a solemn face: ‘fresh tracks, he found fresh tracks in here, get your gun ready’. There’s a hubbub around the vehicle as trackers pile off and dogs sniff at each other, my client is fumbling to get his ammo belt on and heavy jacket off at the same time, I can sense his excitement.

We walk into the bush with the little wizened tracker at the lead, a gaggle of dogs around his feet and the others spread in a semi circle. The pace is fast and hurried until the little tracker stops in a clearing and points to the ground, a massive paw print in the red sand. We load rifles, our formation changes, now we are directly behind the little bushman, guns at the ready, the farmer behind us without any weapon, hands in his pockets looking bored. The dogs are running ahead on the track and then turning back every time they get too far, they know the drill, they can smell the cat and have seen action before this day.

Suddenly the little bushman stops in his tracks, he clucks to himself and then shakes his head and says to me in Afrikaans, ‘he’s lazy this one, perhaps he’s cold, we’ll find him soon lying in the sun’. Despite the situation I never fail to marvel at how these little people are perfect hunters, merging their being with that of the quarry and almost becoming the beast. I stood for a minute trying to pick out how he had concluded this but gave up and signaled we move on.

One of the younger dogs comes charging back at us through the bush and the bushman ducks out of our way saying to me ‘here he comes’, we all freeze and watch as the massive beast appears ahead of us in the clearing, startled and skidding to a halt his head held up high, eyes fixed. I can sense a look of bewilderment in his face as I tell John to take him in the chest, and make it quick, he’s going to charge.

The shot is always drowned out by the Lions roar as the bullet hits him, this is more or less universal, as is the jump into the air. He lay there for a while his growls slowly subsiding to total silence, it was a good close shot, a clean kill, the cat had died. We clap John on the back and shake his hand and say numb things like good shot, what a massive boy, you don’t get many of them around anymore, what luck a Botswana black mane!

the whole truth ....

The truth behind this story is that earlier that day, this Lion had been released out of a small metal cage in which he had spent the night on the back of the farmers truck. I had personally gone with the farmer the night before and had pointed to the male, an impressive proud animal lying lazily in his half acre pen. I had looked over a number of males, probably 9 in all but he was the most impressive in the price range. He was sedated and loaded into the cage for the night. This was meant to get him cold and lazy so by the time he had been released onto the cattle section of the ranch he was stiff and aching with a headache from the now worn off tranquilizer, he lay down and waited for the sun to come.

The bushman was left behind when they released the cat, he climbed a tree and waited for us to appear, his cue, upon which he jumped down and flagged the truck to a halt. Thus our ‘hunt’ started, the cat came charging out of the bush after one of the dogs he probably had interaction with, day in and day out, through the fences of his captivity.

I cannot express this in any stronger terms - THERE ARE NO WILD LION LEFT IN SOUTH AFRICA FOR YOU TO HUNT IN FAIR CHASE - they are all, to some extent, captive bred animals and if you hunt them you are participating in a 'canned hunt' no matter what it appears like to you or whether you have been told about it or not.

In South Africa cats are bred, or should I say allowed to live and reach maturity for a purpose. They never know the true wild and their whole life has been controlled from birth by humans. We are their source of survival through our own greed and materialism. This is the power we exert over nature and its inhabitants for our own ends.

The above story is true and I expect some will not agree with what I have said. However it is an undeniable fact! This does happen in South Africa, Namibia and to an extent Zimbabwe.

I'm not judging anyone who has participated in such a hunt, I just believe that people should know what does happen!

Pete Swanepoel jnr

I've hunted with Pete. I share his concern. Everyone needs to be aware going in what is probably taking place behind the scenes.

I know of several clients who when asked to describe their lion hunt in SA all came out with the exact same story recounted above! It is so easy to believe when one is there.....

This story gives me the creeps. I do not know how anybody can BS another person like that. The person is quite correct that the "wild Lion" will charge them, because it is a tame lion. It is a well known fact that a wild lion have a natural fear/ call it what you want, for humans. They will 99% of the time get out of the way. On the other hand a captive bred lion has losts its fear for humans and they will charge.

Maybe there is another questin to be asked. Why does hunts like this excists? Because there is a demand for them. A lot of hunters, not all, is booking a specific package and wants to get everything he booked. What happened to hunting ethics and the fact that you except your fate when hunting, if you get your prey, good, if do not get your prey, you try again next time.

Haven't we got a breed of hunters that is only after the trophies (not that there is anything wrong in taking trophies) and not the hunting experience.

This practises will not stop untill the demand for them is zero.

It is digusting to brag about a hunt like this.

yes this is horrible, and yes there is a demand for it, but i think there's more to it than that. There are also the hunters who have been mislead. They have looked upon africa as a godess in their imagination and believe whatever they are told or see on TV. Last night for instance I watched bushnell outdoors. Here we have a forest fairy bowhunting 10 yards from the waterhole inside of a brick bulding, maing his audience believe that this is the real africa. Another hunter shoots at a kudu and you can see the miss go wide left. He is congradulated on his fine show and they finally find the kudu in the middle of the next day, obviously having just been killed. Perhaps if this kind of sh-- is halted, some of these hunters with only immagination on their side can really hunt once again.

butchloc: the only thing real about Dave Watson's work is that he is making a living off of it! I just can't figure out why a soild company like Bushnell has him as their PR man.
I've had a few dealings with Dave, none turned out well.It is funny how fast I found others that got burned the same way I did after being burnt myself.
I got a kick out of your "forest fairy" comment. He may be alot of things but not a fairy. He has a bunch of kids.

Kensco quoted from the SafariBwana website:

quote:

The cornerstone of the massive rejuvenation of wildlife in South Africa has been the principle of placing the ownership of game, usually vested in the hands of the president, into that of private hands. This has enabled growth in the industry beyond compare and no matter what any greenie says, hunting has been the most influential factor in this conservation revolution.

Yet this privatization, although revolutionary, also resulted in loopholes and abuse where massive profits clouded out any sane hope of self-regulation. Now the industry stands in the firing line and it seems likely that the face of hunting in South Africa is about to change on many fronts. I say it is about time!

South Africa became a Republic in 1961 - so it then also had it's first President!
Long-long before that the ownership of game was in the hands of the land-owner and always has been.

Só, please go back to your source and get them to stop BS'ting everybody else with their cow dung stories!

It is simply a question of demand and supply causing and bringing about lots of unfortunate things in the hunting industry - not only in South Africa but elsewhere as well.
South Africa is fortunate enough to still have lots of game, conserved by their private owners, not the President or any other governing authority, with high fences and all that goes with it.

Jaco Human is quite right when he says:

quote:

This practises will not stop untill the demand for them is zero.

It is digusting to brag about a hunt like this.

The demand side of this whole issue is equally guilty in all these unfortunate so-called 'hunting' episodes.

butchloc, I saw the same crappy show. I was thinking to myself what did I miss when they were glad handing about a great shot when he clearly missed. This kind of shit goes on all the time. Jimmy Houston was taped in a 3 acre pen shooting deer and the BS around that is funny as hell as he has tried to defend his actions. As long as there are idiots who only care about killing and making $$$ it will not stop. There are tons of bubbas out there that look at these TV "hosts" as the end all in hunting knowledge and skill. Sad situation. I have contacted Bushnell Outdoors and told them I was appalled at the inconsistency and lack of ethics portayed in that program.

crl

What is the difference between this behavour and that of the high fenced whitetail deer hunts in TX, Michigan and other places where "hunters" pay a big price to shoot a "180" size deer?

The lions are raised to be shot by an unsuspecting "dude".

In the case of deer, they are bought and sold at auction (check 'Texas Trophy Hunters Magazine" to see the ads), turned loose to breed or be shot depending on age and horn size.

There are elk and bison operations like this as well in the central US. The pen raised "trophy" elk business is huge.

I recently went elk hunting in Colorado on a unfenced private ranch. We were in an area where the elk move from summer to winter range. WE saw a lot of elk, several hundred with a couple of bigger than normal 5x5's and 6x6's. Most were smaller than what is seen in ads and magazines. We hunted and took a couple.

Later, the rancher asked us if we were interested in a really big bull. Curious, we pursured the idea. Turns out he had a 2500 acre high fenced area in a part of his ranch for "dudes" willing to pay $15000 per elk. He had 400 head in the paddock, all ear tagged and priced accordingly. He used local, captured wild elk and some breeder bulls to generate big horns. We went into the paddock and saw several big elk, all willing to follow the truck around looking for a handout.

Pathetic!!! and Wrong!!! Shame on anyone calling themselves a hunter that participates or condones this.

Something I left out. Except for the demand and hunters who only wants the trophy you also get outfitters that will tell a client anything just to make money out of him. There is nothing wrong earning money, but there is a lot wrong in earning money by bullshitting people, especially uninformed foreighners.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dogcat:

He used local, captured wild elk and some breeder bulls to generate big horns. We went into the paddock and saw several big elk, all willing to follow the truck around looking for a handout.

QUOTE]

my question to you as a sportsman is why didn't you turn him in for using "captured wild elk" as breeding stock...if you are certain he was indeed using them?

the other thing that crosses my mind with the whole deal is the G.D. record book. Big pecker pulling contest. See - my name is in the book - Big freaking deal. If it was used to show what exceptional game was it'd be fine, but it just doesn't end up that way. For instance, after I shot my world record wolf, I put it in the book, just because it was #1, the paperwork was lost for a couple months, then I got a call (from persons we will leave unknown) that he heard about the wolf and wanted to give me 12,000 for it. I refused and lo and behold, 2 weeks latter the paperwork was found. So long as these guys exist we will have canned, penned hunts just so they can claim their is longer than anybody's

He wanted to give you 12K for the skin and skull?

We really need to squash this canned rubbish!
BUT as mentioned, there seems to be a strong demand for it. Its like the drug trade...we take aim at the evil producers BUT gloss over the fact that, and fail to see that the 'good folks' are the ones paying anything for it...just like canned hunts, be they SA lions or drugged whitetails.

Hopefully the recent advisory panel on hunting with DEAT will bring about some serious consequences to canners, who knows? I believe there are some wild lions to hunt in SA, but I am not sure if places like Timbavati/Manyeleti et al have limited hunts for cats anymore? (Jaco, Shakari, other SA'ers know about this?).

I am not sure either where the president fits into the private game industry either? Perhaps we are just reading the message wrong or it was written wrong?

Its true, the privatization of game and more pointedly the creation of the industry has escalated wildlife numbers massively in the past 30 or 40 years. Hunting has been crucial in this. BUT, we should be wary of two things....1) Having game doesn't always equal conservation. The rangeland still has to be managed properly. Soil, water and healthy successionary progress is key, game numbers are short term fluctuations and less of a concern. Some land owners do overstock to either provide better viewing or better species selection for hunting or manage the habittas very poorly. So we must be careful of this.
2) I do stand on the same side of the fence as Ron Thompson BUT having this dogmatic 'if it pays it stays' paradigm can be flawed (as we see in the world around us, dogma leads to a few issues!). It works very well in the short term and in cases beyond. We have seen it work well in Southern Africa with ranches, conservancies and projects like CAMPFIRE.

However, we must never replace the intrinsic value of wildlife with pure instrumental value. Basing the value of an animal purely by its dollar or rand sign on its head is fatal.
When the money dries up, then in theory, so does the game (or environment's) value. If there is no money to pay to see it, then there is no reason to keep it around. This economic valuation is important and has been very successful BUT we need to keep the whole picture in perspective so as not to loose value if the demand dries up, or create a complete free market ethic of 'anything goes for a buck' and hence open the door for abuse - like canned crap.

Now I know some might say, well, thats the free market way...make your money how you can - BULL. We all live in free markets but with heavy legislation. Damn...think of the money you could make taxing Ecstacy at a rave, or legal coacaine growing with heavy sin taxes, sidewalk rent fees outside your house for protitutes undercutting your neighbor per square meter etc etc.

I would never call myself a conservative but somethings just don't seem to be ready for marketing! Reduction of everything to a single econmic figure is simplistic and problem laden.
I mean, a pragmatist might say well hell, we farm cows, lets farm lions and shoot them in tennis courts...pragmatically, what is the difference? In terms of conservation genetics canned lions are better for the conservation of wild lions. I worked for one of SA's best predator ecologists and he felt the same way (not in daily practice before you jumpt to conclusions!). If we limited wild take off drastically in any country and just shot canned lions, it would be a perfect set up.....!

Well, as you can see, we don't all think as pure pragmatists all the time. There is a certain essence which we have a tough time selling...and when it comes to the environment and wildlife, we need to strike the blance on what are willing to sell, kinda like our souls ,ne?

Posted by dogcat!

quote:

What is the difference between this behavour and that of the high fenced whitetail deer hunts in TX, Michigan and other places where "hunters" pay a big price to shoot a "180" size deer?

Answer: Very little if any.

465H&H

I fail to see where the entire canned hunting industry is a problem to anyone other than those whom for their own personal tastes dislike it.
Go Scotland or NZ to hunt red stags, those big 400" bulls and you'll be hunting inside a fence. Go to just about anywhere in Austria or Germany or England and bingo that's wire you'll see. Come to the USA and hunt Texas whitetails (not to mention exotics) and nearly every quality ranch is enclosed in deer proof fence. Hunt bobwhite quail in the deep south and 90% chance those birds were stocked for your pointer. Cripes even in Pierrie SD there are pheasant farms where it will run you $500/day or more to kill 3 wild birds in the morning with an afternoon of planted birds for you to continue your shoot on.
If that is what you wish to spend your $$ on that is your business.It is the envious with little or no chance of ever having an extra $40K in the dresser drawer whom do their best to berate those whom do chose to spend their $40K on a penned lion.

bulldog - I had the whole skin etc., but what he wanted was to put his hame in the book with another #1 animal (he as several there)

I realized that, I guess what I wanted to know is how they could just transfer it over, what proof would he need to show? Or did he know someone over there who would just switch the name? Yeah, I wonder if he even shot any of the three he has in there. Pitiful.

This is definitely a fresh and interesting thread. We are really lucky that “someone in the knowâ€, the “honorable judge†Pete Swanepoel jnr, shares his “first hand†experience of these unspeakable horrors with us.

Pete’s only motivation is surely and solely to inform and warn unsuspecting foreigners, not to just hunt lion with anyone from South Africa. These SA guys are evil, a bunch of thieving crooks, and hell bent on making “massive profitsâ€. Our altruistic hero then, via his web site and by implication, offers his own selfless services as an honest real Mc Coy lion hunting alternative – without making “massive profits†no doubt. Do you buy this story? I don’t.

Pete, please share with us information regarding your described hunt. When and where did this hunt take place? Who was your client, who was the cattle/lion rancher? Which Nature Conservation Authority issued the export permits? When was the CITES permit applied for?

Come on Pete, tell us straight: Was informing your only motivation, or is this your sales pitch? Do you really think that if you can make all your competitors look bad, you’ll look irresistibly good? This approach is not honorable, neither is it effective. It is actually self-destructive.

Kensco, will you please inform our friend Pete about the existence of this thread. I will also request him to reply on this site. Thank you.

I too do not buy that there are no ethical lion hunts in SA as stated in the letter.

I could definitely see how a foreigner could be conned by the act supposedly put on in the hunt above but to say that there is absolutely no fair chase Lion hunting going on in SA is pretty stupid.

What about the ones that come out of the Kruger? Are those pen raised too?

i know of only 1 guy doing a real lion hunt, & he is by krueger. The whole thought is that there isn't any wild lion in RSA save the parks. However I too have seen border crossings, only thing is that i for 1 am not going to spend the thousands of dollars on lion hunt waiting for one to maybe cross the border.

i think in many ways it's all a case of degrees of wildness. Sure there are a few places in RSA where you can hunt Lions that were not raised in cages/pens..... Most are along the border of the Kruger Park....... BUT can one say they're truly wild? - to some degree yes and to some degree no. It'd be fair to say that those Lions coming out of the KNP (etc) are very habituated to vehicles and to a lesser extent to people.

So then one must ask if they're more or less dangerous......well, they'll kill you just as quickly as any other Lion, given the chance and one might argue that the high number of illegal immigrants coming through KNP and being eaten might even mean they're more dangerous.

But if I was asked the question: Are RSA Lion hunts the same as a Lion hunt in a True Wilderness Area such as the Selous Reserve or the Zambezi Valley and/or is a Lion hunt in RSA as intense and challenging as it would be in the aforementioned TWAs - I'd have to say no.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dogcat:

He used local, captured wild elk and some breeder bulls to generate big horns. We went into the paddock and saw several big elk, all willing to follow the truck around looking for a handout.

QUOTE]

my question to you as a sportsman is why didn't you turn him in for using "captured wild elk" as breeding stock...if you are certain he was indeed using them?

Cats,
I did not think to turn him in to the Colorado authorities as he said he had the necessary paperwork to run the kind of operation he was running. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that he had his bases covered. But since you mention it, I will give the Colorado folks a call and see what the law is on that. Thanks for mentioning.

I was the SCI Record Book's editor when the SCI Trophy Records Committee voted to not publish any lion entry from South Africa. You cannot imagine the complaints we got from people who believed they had shot their "wild" lions at places like Port Elizabeth and Kimberley, places where everyone can agree there have been no wild lions for 100 years.. These would have sworn on Bibles that their lions weren't canned.

I've also visited two farms near the Kruger border that were growing lions in small enclosures. One of the "farmers," a young woman, who claimed her thick-maned lions would be used only to repopulate historic lion habitats... She was not raising any females, though.

I know of a couple of wild lions being killed after crossing the Limpopo from Botswana near Alldays, and a few have been lured out of Kruger with bait, but I agree with Pete Swanepoel and would not hunt lion in South Africa.

BillQ

I'd go even further than that, and say we don't offer any DG hunting in RSA....... It's all behind wire at the very best and I just can't bring myself to be happy with that.

I mostlly agree, except for leopard. I've heard of some canned leopard hunts, but IMO most SA leopard hunts are for real. So-called game-proof fences apparently don't keep them out or in, I'm told.

The elephant hunts at Pilanesburg might also qualify as real hunts, based on the potential for danger. The elephants in that park have no fear of people.

BillQ

I think I would have to disagree with the statement that there aren't any real DG hunt in RSA. What about the hunts that Coenraad Vermaak runs? I have the video called "African Adrenaline", it's all hunts for Big 5 in RSA with CV Safaris. I beleive one of the concessions was 65,000 hectares next to the Kruger Park. Of course the Rhino hunts didn't seem all that challenging, but the Buff, Lion, Leopard, and Ele hunts seemed legit. What do ya'll think about it?

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
What about the ones that come out of the Kruger? Are those pen raised too?

Good point. Swanepoel is like a low-class politician...thinks he can get votes by trashing his opponents. Fact is, SA doesn't have $1500/day rates and 18 day minimums and that pisses him off.

We sell a trophy Lion hunt adjacent to Kruger for $36,500 over ten days. These are wild lions and some of them are massive males...thanks to no hunting in KNP, some of them live to die of old age unlike the concessions up N where life expectancy of a male lion is shorter. But the press is up in arms and it's likely that this will be the last year. Then Swanepoel and his buddies in Tanzania will have the lion hunters by the knackers.

The very limited DG hunts I saw and was involved with (post hunt ecological stuff) concerning Coenraad Vermaak were ligit for sure, yes 'behind wire' in the Pilanesberg which is over 150 000 acres in extent, so the animals certainly very much free ranging. Hunts for big 5 do take place in some very large reserves and are very legit. I would assume though that the opportunity for lion on these areas is very limited....
Lion aside, there certainly are legit DG hunts. Eg Timbavati/Klaserie/Umbabat, I think Balule (Alf may know this), Manyelti (?) and a good few other large reserves.

A few dodgy outfits unfortunatley offer less than ethical setups in some instances it seems.

[QUOTE]

Posted 23 February 2006 21:53
I fail to see where the entire canned hunting industry is a problem to anyone other than those whom for their own personal tastes dislike it.
Go Scotland or NZ to hunt red stags, those big 400" bulls and you'll be hunting inside a fence. Go to just about anywhere in Austria or Germany or England and bingo that's wire you'll see. Come to the USA and hunt Texas whitetails (not to mention exotics) and nearly every quality ranch is enclosed in deer proof fence. Hunt bobwhite quail in the deep south and 90% chance those birds were stocked for your pointer. Cripes even in Pierrie SD there are pheasant farms where it will run you $500/day or more to kill 3 wild birds in the morning with an afternoon of planted birds for you to continue your shoot on.
If that is what you wish to spend your $$ on that is your business.It is the envious with little or no chance of ever having an extra $40K in the dresser drawer whom do their best to berate those whom do chose to spend their $40K on a penned lion.[QUOTE]
I feel the same way about canned hunts my problem though is with Safari Club for allowing these animals to be entered into thier record book. To me it cheapens it

Elandslayer and Kayaker- I have a CV tape on the hunt by Kruger. First I have NO experience lion hunting. That being said the tape depicts a hunting procedure I have never heard discuused here or elsewhere. They spent the better part of the hunt "listening" for lions at daylight and dark. At the 11th hour they came accross a big track while driving. They killed a huge black maned cat. And like you ES, I am still sratching my head over that one.

Pilanesberg- "very much free range" - Give me a break I've been there. Rhinos thirty feet out the vehicle window for thirty minutes. Finally you get bored and drive on. Elephant at fifty paces, standing, tearing up trees, oblivious to the ten cars parked around with cameras rolling.

Pilansberg is a wonderful 150,000 acre zoo. Nothing ran from the vehicles. One kudu got skittish. That's about as wild as it got.

The early responses actually restored my faith in hunters. Then like always a few begin to bail in trying to justify the unjustifiable and explain the unexplainable. As the pack forms, they move right along to - shoot the messenger.

Apply as much spin as you can and you still won't be able to sell a lion hunt in the RSA to a real hunter visiting this forum, but there unfortunately are plenty of people (people not hunters) that don't mind cat-in-a-can.

quote:

Apply as much spin as you can and you still won't be able to sell a lion hunt in the RSA to a real hunter visiting this forum, but there unfortunately are plenty of people (people not hunters) that don't mind cat-in-a-can.

I think the point you're missing is no one is asking you to accept their view point. It is afterall "THEIR VIEW POINT" that matters most to them.
If it was illegal to have cat-in-a-can (as you stated) then that is another entirely different subject .
Each person gets to hunt under their ethics of the hunt as long as it falls inside the parameters of the law. Is one chooses to scoff or snub their nose at another law biding person that is their option too. ie., I would never burn a flag of the country I fought for..it goes against my principles. BUT it is the law in the USA that says someone else has that very same right to burn that very same flag. It is their view point of principles that allows them to do so.

This story sounds a lot like the Sandhurst one in SCI a couple years ago. Rogue lions attacking cattle in RSA, a call in the middle of the night etc...

Right Mr. Kensco, you reckon you have a “superior†understanding about how things in Africa really are? I think not. Maybe you rather have an “anterior†grasp on a few issues. Maybe, just maybe things aren’t always as straightforward as you see them. Maybe some “unexplainable†things can be very explainable - if you keep an open mind.

To prove a little point, I’m going to take a change and ask some of the US posters, especially those familiar with the States of Washington and/or Oregon, to consider two of my statements. If you guys disagree with the “facts†– as I have experienced them, please correct me.

“Shooting a huge 6 x 6 elk (or any other size and sex for that matter) in the state of Washington is like shooting fish in a barrel. It can definitely not be considered fair chase hunting! Just south of Yakima I personally came to within 100 yards of literally 100’s, if not 1000’s, of elk feeding on hay that some one put out there. I have it all on video. On that day I could have shot at least 10 elk – with a double rifle before they would’ve been able to run out of that valley! They were so tame and numerous, a blind would’ve been able to hit a few with a muzzleloader. If you hunt elk in the State of Washington, you’re nothing but a common slaughterer! To kill an elk would involve no skill at all.â€

Also: “Killing a pronghorn in Oregon must be as easy as falling from a tree. In northern Oregon we saw a herd of pronghorn feeding on some wheat looking stuff next to the road. We stopped the truck, got out and had a smoke while glassing them at less than 150 yards. They did not even look up at us! Hunting pronghorn can surely not be sporting – shame on any person that shoots one of these tame animals. No real hunter will do that!â€

I’ve seen it myself – just as Kensco has seen the “tame critters in the Pilansberg zooâ€.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:

quote:

Apply as much spin as you can and you still won't be able to sell a lion hunt in the RSA to a real hunter visiting this forum, but there unfortunately are plenty of people (people not hunters) that don't mind cat-in-a-can.

I think the point you're missing is no one is asking you to accept their view point. It is afterall "THEIR VIEW POINT" that matters most to them.
If it was illegal to have cat-in-a-can (as you stated) then that is another entirely different subject .
Each person gets to hunt under their ethics of the hunt as long as it falls inside the parameters of the law. Is one chooses to scoff or snub their nose at another law biding person that is their option too. ie., I would never burn a flag of the country I fought for..it goes against my principles. BUT it is the law in the USA that says someone else has that very same right to burn that very same flag. It is their view point of principles that allows them to do so.

For a change, I agree with cats on this one. While nobody is asking those who are "real hunters" to agree with the point of view above, the "real hunters" are demanding that we who have a more open mind agree with them. It is a matter of personal choice as to what one considers unethical behavior. If it bothers you to hunt within twenty kilometers of a high fence, then don't do it. It really is as simple as that. To some extent, this is like religion. Don't attempt to push your religion (or superior ethical system) down anyone else's throat. While you might believe in your heart that you are right, you don't have the right to insist that I believe as you do. It is perfectly legal for me, and ethical IMO, to go to a fenced operation such as the Sanctuary in Michigan and kill a nice whitetail buck. I could care less what you think about it. So far, I have chosen not to do so, but believe me, it isn't because you who are "real hunters" think it isn't ethical. I make up my own mind about such things.

quote:

Pilanesberg- "very much free range" - Give me a break I've been there. Rhinos thirty feet out the vehicle window for thirty minutes. Finally you get bored and drive on. Elephant at fifty paces, standing, tearing up trees, oblivious to the ten cars parked around with cameras rolling.

I have worked there doing lion and elephant reserach and this is true Kensco, the southern part of the park is the visitor area and as a result, the game is very habituated to vehicle traffic...it is one of the most popular parks in the country so the game sees a lot of traffic and as a result is very habituated.

Thats great as far as running a park goes...especially one surrounded by inhabitants. belive me, if you didn't see any game if they were super skittish, you would be complaining about having been in the car for 3 hrs without seeing anything.
Unfortunately authorities in many parks can't just let anyone wlak around, hence the car only rules (people have been nailed by elephants in Pilanesberg). Pilanesberg is actaully a great model on how to run a diverse park close to large communities.

Now about the skittish game thing....do you hunt sheep in North America? Elk? I always heard the sheep hunting was the creme de la creme of NA hunting, only fit, experts need apply.
Backtrack my first visit to Jasper Nat park in the rockies....you seriously could hunt bighorn there with a pocket knife....walk up, grab it and slit its throat. All these stories I heard about epic stalks, long shots etc etc. Domestic sheep I tell you, whats the big deal! Elk, same thing...you can walk back from the bar after too many beers and accidentally bump into one in the car park! Therefore I deduced that all sheep and Elk in the Alberta rockies are very tame.......

Obviously I know this is not true of all game in all areas, and won't make that claim as its a park with habituated game (that causes some 'attack issues too). As is true for Pilanesberg. Yes, game is habituated to vehicles (as in most parks) but the hunting and trail area of Pilanesberg sees very few people in comparison. I am not saying its the toughest hunting ever but certainly not 'tame'. I had dealing with CV sfaris when we would cut the epidiymis off rhinos to send to DRC. I remeber them as being well professional. I don't know them perosnally at all, but they seemed like a solid outfit.

I am not defending lion hunting in SA. I agree that there are better countries to hunt wild lions in, for sure. I personally don't like the canned hunts one bit (read my comments above about the pragmatic ethics thereof.....'cows with claws').
BUT...how much canning goes one all over the world with hugh fence exotics?
As posted above...dogmatic belief (as we see in religion) does nothing but stir the sheeeeet!

Cats and partkyhntr,
You are right, but the hunt described above is against the law. I might be wrong with the figures but there are rules. A pen raised Lion must be released at least 4 or 6 months before he is hunted on land that is at least 1000 ha big and the lion may not be sedated when he is hunted. The above hunt is 1000% against the nature conservation act.

I have no problem if a person wants to hunt a lion according to the legislation that is laid down in this country, but I have a problem with the descibed hunt.

When a client comes in he must know excactly what type of Lion he will hunt. If it is a farm raised lion, tell it to the client, don't bullshit him with a story that it is a wild lion out of Botswana. With that I have a big problem.

I take my clients to high fenced farms. If the animals are born and bred on the farm without human intervention, it is just as difficult to hunt that animal than it is in say Zim. Actually it can be more difficult, if only one sees you and strarts running he warns everything on the farm and then they all watch out for you. If that animal was delivered on the farm 1 or 2 days before the hunter arrives, I have a problem. That animal does not know the area and will stay in the area where he was off loaded, there to be taken, again by a unsuspecting hunter. This type of put and take is unexceptable for me.

Ethical hunting to me is that the animal must always have a chance to escape, ie. your skills must be better than his. You must outwit the animal.

People in different parts of the world have different values to ethical hunting, that is fine, I can live with it. When outfitters/ph's start breaking rules and basic ethics to ensure that your client gets everything on his wish list and then brag about your successes, that is wrong.

Kensco:

I've been to Pilanesburg three times over the past 20 years and I agree that it is an overgrown zoo, but it's at least five times larger than most of the game farms that offer hunting in South Africa today, and that was my point. If I want want to hunt dangerous game I'm going elsewhere.

If you read my post again you'll see I also never said Pilanesburg's hunting was free range. However, there is real danger in hunting one of its elephants for exactly the reason you've stated: they see people constantly and have no fear of us.

BillQ

Amen on the no fear part. The most dramatic scenario we watched was a female rhino tring to stay between her very small baby and a large male that wanted to get at it. I was afraid all the cars and cameras were going to distract the female but she held her ground, kept circling as the bull did. We finally left with her still face to face with the bull and the baby hiding on her hip.

I strongly recommend Pilansberg to anyone in the vicinity.