did I miss something or is it that a lion can't kill you inside a fence just as quick as outside the fence?

I abhor the practice of hunting inside a high fence. Some say, "Well, it's a matter of one's personal ethics or taste." But consider how it looks to the majority, who don't hunt and don't know much about hunting. Canned hunts and hunts inside enclosures should be banned if for no other reason than that they provide strong ammunition to the antis. (I might also add that they greatly contribute to the spread of disease, such as CWD and tuberculosis, among wildlife in many places. them

wihntr, I'm afraid I will have to strongly disagree with you. You are lumping in all high fenced hunts as being "canned hunts". This couldn't be further from the truth. I admit there are lots of places here in Texas that use the "put & take" crap a lot and I don't like it. I would consider those as being "canned hunts" and also the places that have extremely small enclosures. However, there are even more high fenced properties here in Texas that are very well managed and have wild populations of both exotic and native game. Here's an idea: I challenge you to come down to Texas and hunt a big Aoudad Ram or Axis Buck on a ranch that's a few thousand acres high fenced and then afterward, look me in the eye and tell me it was a "canned hunt". I can give you a LONG list of places where you could have an EXTREMELY challenging high fenced hunt and I could also give you a list of places where you could go and just shoot something that was released the week before you got there. It all depends on the animals, the property, and how the property is set up and managed. Please don't decieve people by saying that all high fenced hunts are "canned hunts" because they most definitely are not.

I agree that challenging/sporting hunts can be had behind fences. It is really an issue of the size of the enclosure not the fence. To me the issue regarding the described lion "hunt" is that the outfitter lied to the hunter. the hunter thought he was getting something that he was not.

If a person "owns" a lion, and it is his to do what he wishes, he can let it out it in a 100,000 acre enclosure and sell it to a hunter or he can put it into a 12X12 cage and let someone shoot it in the head. I do not care.
I do not believe that there is a real demand for "canned" hunting. In the lion story posted, the outfitter created a senerio that would be appealing to some hunters and took advantage of them. Therefore the lie created the demand. I just have never come across anyone that would want to spend money on an actual "canned" hunt.

Most of this fence stuff is just personal preference. If all of Zimbabwe was fenced would it be a canned hunt?

Grafton, I agree with you but I think it is also a combination of a couple things. If you have 1,000 acres high fenced that is about 10% wooded, you probably won't have a very challenging hunt. However, if that same 1,000 acres was 60-70% wooded, you might very well come home empty handed, depending on what you are hunting.

In the case of this Lion "hunt". I think it is absurd how the PH lied to the hunter, whom may not have that much knowledge of hunting in Africa and/or canned hunts. Personally, I think he should no longer be allowed to guide hunters. You can bet he will never get any business from me.

answer to riian

you dont have a clue what your talking about regarding the elk in washington.the elk there are on their winter range and are fed by the wa state game and fish dept.the fence is to keep the elk off the road and tourist away from them.the elk are wild and have a season that was long closed when you saw them.they are not fenced in and have a year round season like your animals in s.a.

the antelope you saw in oregon most likely are in an area that you probably can't even draw a permit to hunt them.again i'm sure it was the winter when you saw them grazing by the road.

you should come hunt the elk in wa. sometime.if you don't hire a guide most likely you wouldn't even see one in their summer and fall range.

This is not anything new. I remember an article by , I think,Jack O'Connor in which he wrote of all the different " canned" hunts and also some interesting stories about some rather famous hunters. Some of his stories came from his younger days and happened long ago. One involved a sheep hunt where a famous bow hunter pulled out a pistol and shot the sheep then stuck an arrow in it and had the guide take a picture, he did not name the hunter but there seemed little doubt as to who it was.

The age old company steep in tradtion known as Ringling Bros. is offering a lion hunt for a black maned toothless lion advertised as the best hunt under "the big top".
I wonder if it is a canned or a canvas hunt or possibly a scam????

Pigslayer, thanks for your answer. You’re proving the point I’m trying to make, which is – ignorance of all the facts can lead to erroneous perceptions.

I do have a clue regarding the elusiveness of huntable elk in WA, and antelope in OR. I know that my statements on my previous post, in inverted commas are absurd. They were intended to be in the same class as some of the verbal diarrhea spilt on this forum regarding high fenced hunting, canned lions and Pilansberg. They are foolish because they are based on deductions made from incomplete information. That’s the point I want to prove!

If I had left that Yakima feeding station, without speaking to knowledgeable locals that could explain the situation to me, I would have swore on my future grave that WA elk hunting was merely target practice on living flesh. If I had not listened to the accounts of WA hunters regarding their numerous unsuccessful elk hunts, I wouldn’t be able to comprehend that a challenging elk hunt was possible there.

I have made the “factsâ€, as observed by me, subordinate to the information received from various locals in the know. I did not get on a high horse of perceived superior knowledge and argued their side of the story. That would be stupid. Just as stupid as some of the rubbish posted on this thread!

Let me give you a few examples:

The Pilansberg zoo. Some of the posters, having been through the visitor’s section of Pilansberg (maybe once or twice), would have you believe that one can kill any animal there with a slightly sharp stick. Have they ever hunted in Pilansberg, or even passed through the safari area? I bet you not. Although on totally different continents, only related in the fact that they are both even-toad ungulates, do you see any parallelism between the tameness of the feeding station Yakima elk, and the visitor section kudu of Pilansberg? Come on you bunch of doubting Thomas’s! Try a little harder – you can surely figure this out.

The perception that game behind a high fence (irrespective of area size or the specie) is automatically equal to unethical, easy and resentful slaughter. This is hogwash, and any one claiming it to be true is ignorant. Just as ignorant as I would be to claim that one can walk up to any OR antelope and shoot it in the head with a .22. Just as ignorant as Kayaker would be if he proclaimed that any and all sheep hunting is a walk in the park, based solely on his observations in Jasper National Park – which is not in Africa BTW.

The balderdash about canned lion hunting. I don’t want to go into this too much right now, as I’m waiting to see if our “original exposing heroâ€, Pete Swanepoel jnr, have the guts to answer the questions I posted for him initially on the 23rd. I have e-mailed him, but got no response. He maybe out in “his wilds†at the moment, so I’d like to give him a fair chance before ripping his fairytale apart.

TrapperBob, I’ve heard about five variations of that story – all was related as personal accounts, witnessed first hand by someone known to the narrator. Strange how those similar incidences occurred, and keep occurring, throughout the world! I heard about the Canadian sheep that was pistol shot and then arrowed. Then there were the Oregon black bear that met the same fate, the Zimbabwean elephant was killed in the same manner (also with a pistol), there was a buffalo in Tanzania – and you’ve guessed it, a lion in South Africa! Could all those tales be true – it is as unlikely that all the canned hunting and deceiving PH stories are true.

It just seems to me, that whenever one of our local “Africans†says something about Africa, it is acceptable to regard it as inferior to the “expert knowledge†of someone from a different continent. Let’s draw a parable: If I read the online version of the New York Times more often than the guy from Corpus Christi, would I’ll be better informed than him about the county news in Houston? Well hell no – I don’t agree! And if you’ve read through all of this, I really respect your perseverance and/or envy your available time.

I don't want to be drawn into one of these debates that gets ugly and never sees to get solved but....I think the point Riaan is trying to make is simple.

Basing everything on limited personal observation (eg tame animals in the visitor zone of Pilanesberg, fed elk Yakima or town living sheep in Jasper) or very limted discussion with one or two people is flawed.

Holding dogmatic beliefs that ALL SA hunting is year round, all lions are shot on tennis courts, all bighorns are as tame as cows, is wrong.

Sometimes best to get well researched infomation based acdemically and experientially before expousing the 'gospel'. Many international hunters coming to Southern Africa are well versed many are not and base their opinions of limited heresay or misleading observations, just as many people who travel to other countries are about their particular wildlife, culture, politics etc. Its not a crime, no one is omni-intelligent but it can be frustrating when they expouse great reams of facts and gospel like information as hard and incontestable facts without backing it up except for ranting.

I speak about lions as I have done research on lions, and in Pilanesberg. I am still no 'expert' and haven't written my thesis on it. How many tousits don't go to Yellowstone or Banff and say "gee, bears just stand around and stare at you, how could you hunt one, it would over in 5 mins and take no skill". Thats the nature of areas where game is not 'hassled'.

The canned lion debate will rage unchecked, thats for sure, as it has done since 1997 when the first major international footage hit the screens worldwide (I realise that was not the first but it was the first time is went majorly public).

Yes, hunts are on ranches. Most have high fences. Fences retard the movement of some species not all. They don't totally prevent free ranging of game and they don't by defintion make for easy or less than enjoyable hunting. Stalking game on foot on many thousands of acres can be very challenging, shooting off the Landcruiser on a million acres with no fence can be a cake walk.
Its relative....

Some people, from various places on this forum have some good insights to share, some just seem to like riding the highest horse they can find. Is it worth getting into one of these pissing matches like often goes on? I don't think so. Saeed is trying to put up a forum for us to share a common interest but it gets hijacked.

Try listening to someones story if they have more experience or education/training in that field. Just my 2 cents.

Dankie Riaan, dis hoepeloos om die moer-in te raak oor 'n internet forum...

quote:

Originally posted by Riaan:

.........
“Shooting a huge 6 x 6 elk (or any other size and sex for that matter) in the state of Washington is like shooting fish in a barrel. It can definitely not be considered fair chase hunting! Just south of Yakima I personally came to within 100 yards of literally 100’s, if not 1000’s, of elk feeding on hay that some one put out there. I have it all on video. On that day I could have shot at least 10 elk – with a double rifle before they would’ve been able to run out of that valley! They were so tame and numerous, a blind would’ve been able to hit a few with a muzzleloader. If you hunt elk in the State of Washington, you’re nothing but a common slaughterer! To kill an elk would involve no skill at all.â€

That of course would depend on the time of year. When did you see this? I would guess in the winter when the Elk were being fed. The season is long over by then.

The main skill in Elk Hunting in Washington is avoiding being shot by the other hunters.

Shooting an Elk in Washington is actually not difficult if you get drawn for the right area. If you are an Indian it is quite easy as they are very plentiful in Western Washington at the moment.

Couple of minor corrections:
Unless I'm mistaken, the elk being fed near Yakima are not South they are North/West. It is the Oak Creek elk feeding station located on the north side of the Tieton River on the White Pass Hwy. I was raised about 10 miles from there so know the area well.
They are fed in the winter to assist them in wintering.
I do have a pertinent question. What African animals can jump a 12 foot, electrified high fence? I saw a lot of them in the Limpopo region. Just courious.

TJ:

quote:

I do have a pertinent question. What African animals can jump a 12 foot, electrified high fence? I saw a lot of them in the Limpopo region. Just courious.

I think you've over-estimated the height of SA game fences - they are normally 2.5m or just over 8ft high.
12ft would mean a 3.65m high game fence - I have'nt seen any of those as the standard height anywhere!

TJ, you are correct regarding the location of the feeding station. I had my North/South directions screwed up. It happens to me all the time in the Northern Hemisphere.

Well, with a hell of a wind from behind, a big kick from below, and a lot of mercy from above, one or two individual over-achieving African animals may be able to clear your described fence, but no specie I know of will be able to do it as a matter of routine.

I don’t quite understand your fence-related question.

I have seen kudu, eland, nyala clearing fences and impala, warthogs, wildebees, zebra, waterbuck, duike, steebok, leopard and hartebees go under. Some going through to (between the strands if it not Bonnox type mesh).
This obviously depends on the upkeep of the fence and its design, wether its skirted and pinned etc etc.

Yes, about 2,5 m (21 strand) is normal, 12 ft sounds a bit ambitious.
Cheers

kayaker and riaan,

dont give up expressing your views on s.a. hunting,just choose your venues wisely.most on accuratereloading are on your side.

go to phasa,nature conservation and the ministries of agriculture,tourism etc..

the grass root of american viewpoints on s.a. lodges with s.a.outfitters looking to make a quick buck.

some outfitters perpetually lie to clients and then wonder why they have a dim view of african hunting. example:

recently at a sports show a prospective client asked an outfitter if his game was fenced in.

he responded that his game was free roaming.

standing at another booth i had to listen to this conversation.

after some more q and a the prospective client re-iterated that he wanted to book only a wild hunt for him and his son.the outfitter finally stated that his game was free roaming in one big enclosure i.e. fenced in.at that point those in the know laughed and moved on,including me.the prospective client looked around and he obviously realized he was getting b.s.'d.

this man just wanted the truth.

there is always a basis of truth in any RUMOR.

in the u.s. , as a rule we don't consider any fenced animal a sporting trophy.i'm sure that less than 1% of shot animals in this country are harvested inside of fences.our wildlife state depts. do not consider such kills as part of the ecosystem and do not count them in any surveys.

eliminate the liars and showman and s.a. hunting will prosper even more.

the enemy is within !

i have been on 3 safaris there and the best was just a disappointment.the other 2 were riddled with lies,deception,cheating and fraud. this was surely enough to to give s.a. the benefit of the doubt.to give u an idea of the money i was out on 3 safaris there my last international flight cost $14,800 us dollars as i only fly 1st class.

how much do we have to spend to find a reputable outfitter?

get rid of the trash and we will come ! i personally will probably never hunt s.a. again unless they do away the necessity of a so-called p.h.

offer un-guided or semi-guided hunts and s.a. may again garner some of my money.

after all the crap i encountered with s.a. i am still hoping the situation will change for the better.

maybe one day i can walk down the street and not be ashamed that i hunted in s.a.

out of approx. 50 animals i shot there i only consider 2 a trophy a wild bushbuck and a wild mt.reedbuck.

quote:

Originally posted by pigslayer:
in the u.s. , as a rule we don't consider any fenced animal a sporting trophy.

You shouldn't make such broad generalizations. I have never hunted native game behind high fence, but I have hunted exotics and consider it very sporting.

lhook7,

it's only 1 man's opinion that i profer.

as far as exotics i think they are the only game that should be fenced in our country.there is no reason to fence native game.

our situation is not the same as south africans and i am glad that some s.africans had the presence of mind to fence their game and protect it for everyones benefit.i have enjoyed the benefit of their work just by seeing game there.

i'm glad you enjoy harvesting exotics here in the u.s.

i have not had the opportunity yet but i would like to give it a go.native game though the farmers must pay me to harvest !

game farming itself is anything but an evil in itself.am not sure of specifics but believe i am correct generally in stating that :

r.s.a. saved the red lechwe by aquiring red lechwe from angola and now conduct hunts for same there.

texas saved the indian blackbuck (maybe y.o ?)
and now they are hunted on at least 2 continents.

it's the lying and deception i, like many other hunters have a problem with in s.a.

maybe kayaker and riaan and with hunters like me and u can eventually get things right and honorable.

i did my share by reporting to phasa and nature conservation a trash outfitter.there is no doubt as to their integrity.now i am waiting to see if any good comes of this.

if u have digital pics of your exotics , post them on accurate reloading. i enjoy seeing pics of hunters trophies !

regards,
pigslayer

pigslayer,

Thanks for the response. I don't want to get involved in the overall debate, I just thought the statement I referenced was too broad in its nature. Thanks for clarifying its intent.

The only picture I have posted is of an aoudad I got last May. Click on the link below and it should take you to the thread.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../312103272#312103272

pigslayer, I can think of a very good reason to fence in native game: trophy quality. I agree with the saying that Jack Brittingham has, "If you want to hunt a trophy whitetail, first one has to exist on your property". That is damn near impossible nowdays without using a high fence. Jack has probably killed a dozen or so bucks with his bow that all score over 200". Try doing that on low fenced land. And, contrary to what most people believe, whitetail hunting on a high fenced ranch isn't easy. The only advantage the hunter has is that on a well managed ranch, there will be a higher number of trophy quality deer. Who doesn't want to hunt in an area that has more trophy deer? Just my 2 cents.

quote:

TrapperBob, I’ve heard about five variations of that story – all was related as personal accounts, witnessed first hand by someone known to the narrator. Strange how those similar incidences occurred, and keep occurring, throughout the world! I heard about the Canadian sheep that was pistol shot and then arrowed. Then there were the Oregon black bear that met the same fate, the Zimbabwean elephant was killed in the same manner (also with a pistol), there was a buffalo in Tanzania – and you’ve guessed it, a lion in South Africa! Could all those tales be true – it is as unlikely that all the canned hunting and deceiving PH stories are true.

I suspect they very well may be true. I personally hunted with a Guide in Canada that raised a bighorn, and allowed it to be shot by a "hunter" as it stepped out of a trailer. The sheep was only wounded and ran back into the trailer, and had to be finished off. My guide said he was sick about what happened, and wouldn't do it again, but he was paid $25,000 for the ram by a guy from the States.

The guide raises whitetail and elk for game farms and shipped whitetail to Texas before CWD. I never met the man before that hunt, but he had no reason to make up such a story. I accept it as true.

I get the feeling from your posts that you make something off canned lion hunts in South Africa, or you wouldn't be so upset by the discussion.

You get irate about non-Africans commenting about canned lion hunts, but just as irate about Pete, who has at least as much experience as you in Africa when he comments about canned lion hunts.

I can find only two types of people that would be offended by this discussion; those that have bought such canned hunts and been deceived because we are diminishing their accomplishment. They thought they killed a "wild" lion, and would prefer to live with that myth; or they are people that benefit financially from these type hunts and want the subject to go away so they can continue to benefit from them. Since you are from S. A. I assume you are the latter.

The idea to try and find Pete and bring him to the bar so you can trounce him for his opinion that he stated on his own website is stupid at best. Your desire to divert attention from the original topic appears totally explainable, unfortunately.

Cats. Is this the world famous hunter also known as Washington? Pack

eland whatever, being from TEXAS, you must be one of those 'hunters' that can only 'hunt' inside of a fence. What a bunch of BULLSHIT!!! People like you are not Hunters but killers. I have never hunted inside of a fence like YOU describe! You talk about 200+ size whitetails, I thought hunting was about the hunt, not about the score. Shit any fucking idiot who can aim a rifle and has the money can kill a deer or any other animal you care to talk to about. You must be one of the so called 'hunters' we see on tv who talk about how hard they hunted for 3 or 4 days to get their 'trophy' whatever. By the way I am from TEXAS and have never hunted on a ranch or property like you describe. I was Taught to HUNT not Kill.

elandslayer,

i have traveled heavily for many years and as a result i'm sure have had thousands of hunting and fishing conversations with people of all walks of life.from "deliverance" to the now missing world trade center "zoot suits".i have never met anyone personally who would consider a proverbial 300 inch whitetail from a fenced enviroment that was bred and raised , a better trophy than a wild spike.this among americans and canadians.

i remember a conversation many years ago i had with jack atcheson regarding elk hunting.he stated he would rather kill a wild cow elk than a fenced "monarch"bull of the mt.i was then and still am in 100% agreement with him.

you can't compare animals that quite literally could have been bred through artificial insemination to an animal that was naturally bred and raised in the wild.thats comparing apples to oranges.

the good old days of hunting in this country is now.by all accounts i can find with personal experience at no time in america have we had this much game and the quality to match.

do u remember noel feather? the big time bowhunter who shot "trophy" whitetails in a missouri fenced in preserve and then turned the deer in in illinois as wild kills so he he could stick his chest out.after he got caught and punished my father saw him at a sports show and he was bragging about it.my father said he was disgusted and sick to his stomach.what was worse he said other "hunters" were requesting his autograph !!

hunting native game in fences just gives the antis' more ammo.the bigger picture on that front is that most hunters and non-hunters alike side with the antis'.divided we fall !

i witnessed a "hunter" once bragging about a 5 point elk he shot at a preserve in idaho.i was part of a captive audience in a public space.he was telling everyone how his guide took him around a mt. and there was a whole herd of elk for him to hunt.they sat down within shooting range and his guide pointed out each bull and how much each cost,prices varying from $1,500. to $6,000. he picked out his 5 point at $3,500. and then shot and harvested his bull.this gent was expecting a pat on the back and a round of congrats.i sat quietly while everyone else berated him and laughed him out of the building literally.it was a dentist office and he left with sore tooth and all.

i believe i know where he "hunted".i've stopped by the road there and fed the elk flowers and petted their heads and played with them thru the fence.

the only person i know personnally who has hunted in fences was a south african who did a hunt in texas while he was attending the dsc.

oddly enough the only other person i met who wished to hunt in fences for elk was an outfitter from s.a.he was asking my advice on who to hunt with.i explained that it wasn't necessary and being a non-resident alien he should look around and find a good outfitter to hunt with as many can offer a fine hunt at a good price.his animal would come with no guarentee but any wild elk is a trophy that one can be proud of.he insisted on only a fenced hunt.he was flabbergasted when i told him if he brags to an american about his fenced elk they will either laugh in his face or wait until he turns around and laugh behind his back.

sadly enough s.a. is missing the boat with some of their hunting practices caused by "bad" outfitters.

many converstions i've had here when the subject of africa comes up people usually respond with one of these 3 top responses :
a)they laugh
b)they say "i've heard about that place"
c)they say "i'd like to hunt africa but..." and rest assured nothing good
follows.

we must police our own !!

i doubt it will ever happen in my lifetime,but if hunting native game here gets to the point that i must hunt in fences i will lock my gun cabinet.time to remember the "good old days".

thats sure a fact es big whitetail must be present to harvest a big one.

lhook7--thanks for the link. well done!

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Cats. Is this the world famous hunter also known as Washington? Pack

I missed that ??????

For older hunters like myself, hunting has changed so much I hardly recognize it at times.

Many, if not most, of the "hunters" I hear talking now would never get invited back a second time to a 1960s or 1970s deer camp, let alone a safari. The hunters then would simply not have tolerated the ego-driven behavior, bragging about SCI points, showing a lack of respect for the animal being hunted and the manner in which he was killed. It's too much about money now.

If you don't tell the people profiting from the business the type of hunt you want, they assume you want the easiest hunt, the quickest kill, the biggest bragging rights you can get your hands on, because in many cases that is exactly what the customer wants, and he's standing there with a fist full of cash, and shit for brains. No wonder hunting ethics have been bent double, if not broken-down completely.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
..... what the customer wants, and he's standing there with a fist full of cash, and shit for brains. No wonder hunting ethics have been bent double, if not broken-down completely.

the common man with a fist full of cash and shit for brains has found a way to keep hunting alive and legal in 2006...what is ruining hunting is a man with a fist full of cash and shit for brains that can go out an lay low a half dozen elephants or such on 1 safari for no better reason than he is bored with his dull life style or needs an ego boost.

quote:

Originally posted by dbking:
eland whatever, being from TEXAS, you must be one of those 'hunters' that can only 'hunt' inside of a fence. What a bunch of BULLSHIT!!! People like you are not Hunters but killers. I have never hunted inside of a fence like YOU describe! You talk about 200+ size whitetails, I thought hunting was about the hunt, not about the score. Shit any fucking idiot who can aim a rifle and has the money can kill a deer or any other animal you care to talk to about. You must be one of the so called 'hunters' we see on tv who talk about how hard they hunted for 3 or 4 days to get their 'trophy' whatever. By the way I am from TEXAS and have never hunted on a ranch or property like you describe. I was Taught to HUNT not Kill.

You must be one hell of a shot to kill anything from the height of the horse you are riding.

quote:

You must be one hell of a shot to kill anything from the height of the horse you are riding.

Mr. Lhook7, that’s a great line!

True,

In response to the implications above, I have zero to do with or gain from canned lions.

I am simply a concerned citizen who has and does work in wildlife management and tourism. I hunt and am passionate about wildlife, conservation, hunting etc, South Africa, Africa and related issues and politcs!

I have nothing to gain or loose. It is my mission to help erode eroneous beliefs and misconceptions. A lot of what has been said in this forum about canned hunts in SA is true, some however is pure opinion stated as the gospel according one or two people, whcih is
It seems its a sensitive issue in the US too?

There is crap an they is honesty. I totally aggree that people should be mislead or hoodwinked by anyone but to assume these rampant genralisations is plain ignorance. I find it difficult to swallow that some people will pose as great authorities with limited experience. the issue of ranch hunts will continue, unabated for long time I am sure. many popel are happy with them, many are very challenginf, many are not. Some are small, some are very large.

As I wrote earlier, hunting on foot on a 10 000 acre ranch can be more challenging that poping game of the truck in 1 million acre unfenced land. Not all operators are out to screw you or lie to you and not all game on ranches is hand reared or living as pets either!

I hope some of these myths can be busted in due course.
Cheers

My question about animals jumping a high fence was not meant to fuel the fire about hunting behind a high fence. You hunt how you want and I'll hunt how I want. How you do it is none of my business.
The fences I had in mind were at least 10 feet high. I was just courious if a Kudu could jump one? I've got a couple pics of the fences somewhere, if I can find them I'll post.
thanks.

dbking, actually I've only killed a few animals behind high fence and none of them were whitetails. I'm 17 years old and have been hunting since I was 6. I have killed 13 or 14 Whitetails and everyone of them was free ranging, so don't be quite so quick to judge me. I have hunted a few exotics behind high fence and also pigs, but they just go under it. I worked on a 7,000+ acre high fenced ranch over this past summer. It is fenced into 3 sections of 1,800; 3,550; and 1,750 acres respectively. Just to give everyone an idea of how "easy" it is to kill animals in a high fence. We were riding around one night in the Jeep and saw a very nice pair of Whitetail bucks. We were in the 1,800 acre section of the ranch. I had been working at the ranch for about a month and had never seen these bucks before. I stayed on that ranch 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2 whole months and NEVER saw those bucks again, EVER!!! And that particular section is where the house is and that's where we travelled the most. Don't automatically believe that all fenced hunting is easy, because it only shows your ignorance. You may not agree with fenced hunting and you may not want to participate in it, so don't. But don't tell me I am any less of a hunter than you. Also just to let everyone know, none of the animals I hunted behind high fence were hand raised or brought in for me to hunt. Every animal that I have hunted behind high fence was born on the property. In fact, the Eland I shot 2 years ago is from probably the oldest herd in the U.S. The herd has been on that ranch for 60 some odd years and they know the property much better than any human and they will outsmart you in a heartbeat. dbking, since you have never tried hunting anything behind a high fence, why don't you try it just once and if you don't like it, then you can bitch about it, but don't bitch about it now. That's like someone asking you if you like boiled crawfish and you telling them "HELL NO!!! That shit is disgusting!" Then they say, "Have you ever actually tried it?" and you say "NO". It just doesn't add up. So for the sake of our sport (hunting), go book an Axis hunt on a decent sized high fenced ranch and I guarantee you that you will like it (unless you shoot out of the truck, which I NEVER do, you should always stalk).

Cats. I wondered. Have you been known in the past as Wynnwood or Washington? You seem have their brand of panache! Packrattusnongratus

Elementary my dear Watson-pack! jorge

Thanks Jorge. Looks like it's back to the department of redundancy again! I'm sick of TROLLS. Back to the LURK mode. Packy

pack if you are sick of trolls then the over age and grade guy that suggested to you I was should be off your readers list for certain, for he is nothing more than a himself.
FTR I am not whom he thought I was. Cats

This past weekend I was at an SCI banquet, and my taxidermist displayed one of my African trophies which he was delivering to me.

At the banquet was a group of guys that I know who all belong to a Whitetail hunting group that specializes in hunting suburban areas. One of those members made it a point to question (in front of his whole group) if I took my trophy on a fenced property in RSA -- (it was clear that he was just taking a cheap shot at my trophy). I relayed that I had taken him (with bow and arrow) on a large fenced property, approaching 15,000 acres (with no internal fences), which had a lot of cover. That's over 23 square miles, and much larger than many State owned hunting properties here in the US. The guy reacted with smug superiority -- now, this is a guy who routinely hunts tiny woodlots and back yards, where the deer are often trapped on much tinier plots of land. Still, he felt very comfortable condescending.

What kills me about this debate is that many people who sound-off the loudest are either people who cannot (or believe that they cannot) afford to go on an African hunt. Or, I've often observed many guys who I know for a fact hunt from the Safari Truck and shoot off of a sandbag, or some kind of a T&E device mounted to the truck, at supposedly "free ranging" game looking down their noses at hunting in RSA, and bow hunting as well -- that's referred to as "road hunting" here in the US, and is considered both illegal and unethical, but for some reason, I don't see any threads challenging that practice.

Anyway, this is mostly a useless and pointless discussion. But, some folks can't seem to get enough of it on this board, as it comes up time and time again. It gets people stirred up and usually ends up with folks saying some very nasty things to each other.

If you don't want to go on this type of hunt, you don't have to. Also, has it ever occurred to anyone that it may be those who would profit the most in steering folks away from hunting RSA who may be behind this constant recurring theme on this board. It wouldn't be the first time that someone attempted to fan the flames of our cultural over-reaction to a soundbyte or demonized label.

jorge I have to sift out the lies at work. From almost 2000 crooks each day. You are right. He just told me as much and then told me what to do about his lies and inuendo. Guess I will follow his advice. Same as on other boards, ignore feature works. Packy

Arrow Slinger -

quote:

Or, I've often observed many guys who I know for a fact hunt from the Safari Truck and shoot off of a sandbag, or some kind of a T&E device mounted to the truck, at supposedly "free ranging" game looking down their noses at hunting in RSA, and bow hunting as well -- that's referred to as "road hunting" here in the US, and is considered both illegal and unethical, but for some reason, I don't see any threads challenging that practice.

Anyway, this is mostly a useless and pointless discussion. But, some folks can't seem to get enough of it on this board, as it comes up time and time again. It gets people stirred up and usually ends up with folks saying some very nasty things to each other.

If you don't want to go on this type of hunt, you don't have to. Also, has it ever occurred to anyone that it may be those who would profit the most in steering folks away from hunting RSA who may be behind this constant recurring theme on this board. It wouldn't be the first time that someone attempted to fan the flames of our cultural over-reaction to a soundbyte or demonized label.

To the point some of us have been trying to politely make.
Take Care...