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I got Jim Shockey's recent newsletter. He is touting the SAAM training at FTW ranch in Texas. Is this worth the cost? Are there alternatives? | ||
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I've seen the videos for the SAAM courses and they look to be fantastic and well worth the money. If they're half as good as the videos make 'em look, they must be one the best thing you'll find about Africa, outside Africa. | |||
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dc, is that the one that costs $4,000?  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, Four grand ain't cheap but when you think that some African safaris can easily cost in excess of US$100K all in and a big elephant something in the region of US$25K, it's pretty much small change compared to even the trophy fee on some animals, let alone the total cost of a safari...... and of course there's no such thing as a free lunch.  Also, don't forget that it's not unheard of for someone who's never even been to Africa before to go on a 21 day full bag safari and then consider your own signature line and you might then realise that four grand could be money well spent for some people.  | |||
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It may not be good as a general prescription, but for me it would be far better to spend a fraction of that amount on ammunition, and then put in some serious range time! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike Try to get hold of one of their DVDs and you'll see how much more beneficial a SAAM course could be when compared to just spending time on the range.... Once you see one, you'll understand why the courses ain't cheap. | |||
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Monty Kalogeras' Safari Shooting School. Save a few bucks and get just as much out of it as at SAAM. | |||
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Okay, so when are you going?  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I'd second Monty's operation. I've known him for a number of years, seen his facilities and I think you'd get more bang for your buck. | |||
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I agree four grand is a lot for this, particularly when I haven't found my shooting to be a problem. It would be most beneficial if those who endorse such things would be honest about their affiliation. I write about shooting for a magazine and can assure you, there is no shortage of barrel makers, etc. who will give me something for free in return for an endorsement. If Jim really spent 4K on this school, then his endorsement might mean something. And please note, I am a big fan of Shockey. I love his shows. But the guy is a businessman as much as anything. I guess if you make your living in the hunting world, you have to be. | |||
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it's a great course and a great bunch of people run it too you could not ask for a nicer host than the bunch at FTW. chip one of there instructors is a retires seal/sniper you can learn a lot of distance shot techniques too. and the life size moving targets will get your blood pumping it's worth every penny | |||
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Several friends have been through the SAAM safari and longer range courses and all raved about what they learned. I find that, in the context of firearms training, many of us don't know how much we don't know. If you think you know it all, I can promise that you're wrong. There's a serious difference between "shooting" and "training". Operators in Tier 1 units (like those who took out UBL) attend civilian shooting schools on a regular basis. | |||
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I know a couple of PH's who told me they wished all there clients would take the course. If Dave Fulson or Craig Boddington are not off hunting maybe they would give use there impression of the FTW course | |||
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If any would like a DVD on the Sportsman's All weather All terrain Marksmanship shoot me a PM and will see that you get one. Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Know the crowd - would recommend them anytime, good bunch of people. i think it is a good course to go on - one never knows enough | |||
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And now for a Landrover maintenance course.  | |||
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"Operators in Tier 1 units (like those who took out UBL) attend civilian shooting schools on a regular basis." I didn't realize this either until I had the privilege to spend a weekend with a SEAL last month at a wedding we were both groomsmen in. He is a sniper and he affirmed that a lot of their specialized training is via civilian contractors. I've met a couple and they're all a different breed. As an aside we had some fun with him getting one of the lifeguards to "rescue" him out of the pool. | |||
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Gunsite in Arizona used to have a "Safari prep" course. It didn't cost as much this one and while I didn't take the course (I was there for pistol) the course layout looked good. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I guess if you can afford $4000 for a shooting course then go for it. Especially for an urban dweller who has not had an opportunity to shoot a whole lot in their lifetime. And I am quite sure that anybody here including myself would benefit and learn a great many things. For a great many people here though, it would be money wasted from the experience level of a lifetime of shooting and hunting. I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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Totally agree RAC; the reason I live in AZ is so I can shoot several times per week. Be hard to do in Chicago, Boston, or NYC. I actually think if there is any value to these courses, it would be close up shots at charging game. But I am not not sure how you can simulate that. A target moving on rails doesn't have the gait of a buffalo. As for long range shooting, it is all about the wind, and there is simply no substitution for constant practice. I am certain you would be better off spending that 3K building an accurate rifle and then spending the rest on ammo shooting several times per week at long range than in taking a one week course. | |||
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Several plus years ago I talked to an outfitter out of Alaska who would deduct the cost of attending Gunsite from the cost of the hunt. I asked why he would do this and he said:" We all do a lot better if you attend the course." I think that is a "win-win." Jim | |||
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From time to time, I see a commercial on Tracks Across Africa for a "safari shooting school". Not sure the name of it. Why are you interested in this type of instruction? DG hunting vs better PG shot? I've never attended one, but I'd think a "safari" school would be much better on the use of doubles and the little stuff about DG hunting. For PG, a reputable precision rifle school could also be considered. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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May I suggest that a lot of training for an important hunt can be done at home, with no expenditure of ammunition. Station yourself in as large a room as your home affords, make sure your rifle is unloaded, then assume the "ready" position, with the rifle diagonally across your body and both hands in front of you, on the pistol grip and the foreend of the stock. You should end up with the foot opposite your dominant side further in front, knees slightly bent, and leaning into the direction of the shot to absorb the recoil. Select an small discrete object in the room: a light switch, a knob on a cabinet or door, the thermostat. Then raise your rifle to your shoulder to the point that you are looking through the sights, open, receiver, or scope. You should have the front sight or the crosshairs on the object. If it is not, continue practicing until it is. Take the safety off at the same time you raise the rifle. After you have mastered this exercise with every type of sight you intend to use, then repeat it with objects far to your right or left. You will find that you need to reposition your feet to carry out this manover successfully. Repeat these exercises and practice operating the bolt with the rifle in your shoulder, returning the sights to the point of aim after each bolt cycle. Continue practicing until it seems instinctive and natural. When you are satisfied with your proficiency, try the same exercise with dummy cartridges. You can make these yourself, or ask a handloading friend to make them for you. To ease identification, I remove the primers from fired cases, drill holes in the side of the cases, and paint the tips of the bullets red, so as not to confuse them with live rounds (and vice-versa). When you get to the point that you can instantly acquire a small target and run a magazine load of dummy cartridges through the rifle, the you are ready to practice reloading. Ideally you should be able to reload a magazine without looking at what you are doing, but you will not be able to do that at first. However, you should continue to practice until it becomes second nature. At that point you can decide whether or not to make the investment in a shooting course. If you do, you will be far ahead of your contemporaries in the course. If you don't, you will have a firm foundation to build your live fire shooting skills on at the local range. | |||
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XAUSA: I am a huge fan of dry firing. Another exercise that we used to do when I shot competitively was "ball and dummy." You have a buddy load your rifle with live ammo (obviously you are in a place where you can safely shoot) but one of the cartridges is a dummy round. This will definitely reveal any tendency to flinch. | |||
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RVLIII May I add some clairification. I think TAA looks at it from their view as they are about Africa and DG and therefore do not talk of other persuits in that show format. We do have African choices and several other options that cover a wide variety of hunting areas.They are: SAAM Precision Intense Precision Level II Pistol SAAM Safari & DG Double Rifle DG Private Instruction There is cross over in the SAAM Safari with both plains game and DG covered. Precision is well suited to plains game as well. In difficult and stress situations people revert to their training good or bad. Has anyone noticed that a lot of guys of tv have difficulty acquiring the target, struggling to rechamber a round or taking an American Admiration Shot, etc. Perhaps some have noticed the African game that is hit well behind the shoulder.. a good North American shot but often a gut shot in Africa. SAAM is proper training and correct practice to maintain an otherwise fading asset. These courses are about rightly placed confidence. Elton Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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The difference in training and shooting is that you have to solve a problem that is not all marksmanship oriented. We had a cop here in Fort Smith a year or so back. Good shot, family are gun people. he got into a shoot out with a guy inside 21 feet. The detective was lucky, the bad guy hid behind a car instead of using his shotgun. The woman looking out of her front door down the street wasn't lucky, the cop's piss poor marksmanship under stress killed her. he emptied his Glock 22 and never hit the bad guy but killed a bystander. That is what happens when you just shoot with no induced stress in training. Doesn't happen to everyone but anything you can do to avoid it, like a good shooting school is worth the money if you have it to spend. The skill and confidence you take home is with you for life (the skill needs resharpening from time to time). | |||
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Can anyone explain what this sentence means? Would this be like a Texas Brain Shot? | |||
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Should be... on TV. American Admiration Shot ... pulling trigger and lifting head to look without follow thru.. can cause problems. I have heard guys from Africa use this term while outlining hunter shooting difficulties during our interviews with outfitters and PH's. Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Elton, What is your African experience or hunting in general, or competitive shooting? | |||
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Craig, Tim, Ivan and I were actually involved in assisting Tim and David Fallon , as well as their other instructors with some of the setup, classroom study, and video presentations for the SAAM Safari course. Let me say straight up front that my company very proudly has a business relationship with the SAAM family. Let me also say that the reason for that is that we believe it is far and away the best series of hunter \ shooting training courses to be found anywhere. Any training is good training, from snap caps in the backyard to a SAAM course, but for top end training that will serve you till the end of your hunting days, SAAM is a tremendous investment. I just had one of our safari clients wound both his buffalo and leopard ( both on camera and both unrecovered ) He even talked to the SAAM guys on the phone but in the end decided the fee was too high. At $ 2,900 trophy fee for leopard and $ 4,500 for leopard I wonder if he would feel the same today? I know the answer because he admitted that he wishes he had taken the course. I am heading back up there at the end of the month to brush up on my own shooting as I have several big hunts coming up and sitting on my ass editing hunting shows puts a bit of rust on my shooting. Guys, there are lots of options, and like I said any training is a wise investment. BUT... with that said, if you are really thinking of making the investment, just talk to any SAAM graduate and get their honest opinion. Satisfied customers are always the best marketing tool. Dave Fulson | |||
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With the high cost of a DG safari many of those who can afford it are not competative marksmen. I suspect that most of the hardcore posters in this blog are excellent marksmen with lots of experience so the couse may not seem like a great deal to them. I would bet that most of those taking the course really need it. If they have the money to hunt dg and do not have the skills it would be a good investment. | |||
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These are not skills that can be learned over a weekend.I guess shooting is like tracking.If I walked around all week with a picture of a Kudu or lion track hanging in front of me I doubt I will remember what it looked like in a couple of weeks time.It's just a very expensive trip to the range,IMO. | |||
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You would feel very different if you knew more about the training. I have always worked hard at shooting, and to be frank consider myself to be a pretty fair stick with most of my rifles. Yet I learned so many things from my SAAM experiences that have, and will continue to serve me well for the rest of my life. Price is a consideration no doubt, and they realize it. But in my experience and opinion it is a very reasonable investment in my hunting future. Give me two shooters at a similar skill level , run one through SAAM and one " a weekend at the gun range" and I would bet the farm on the SAAM graduate. Understand that I am in NO WAY undercutting the guy a guy that will never attend a shooting school, but even the best shots will learn some new tricks there. Dave Fulson | |||
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Dave, Sounds to me like this guy had a serious case of nervousness. I am not sure the outcome would have been different if this guy had gone to the course. How do you teach a guy not to miss a leopard at 40 yards from a dead rest? When it comes to settling your nerves, nothing beats competitive shooting, esp something in which you have limited time. The best lesson it ever taught me was not to press the trigger unless everything was perfect. Doing so results in "wishing for a do over" which taught me a valuable lesson: when faced with a tough shot, I always imagine missing and wishing for that do over. I remember it helped greatly on a lion in 2009. The other criticism I would offer is what CB said about these schools: is the guy teaching the school able to teach me anything? (I am paraphrasing.) At the end of the day, we all have limited resources, be it money or time. | |||
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Well, Craig felt like they taught him something. In fact he went down for a refresher course prior to his departure to Pakistan for A Markhor hunt which costs a serious amount of cash. The client, yes who knows, but as they have both simulated buff and leopard courses at SAAM. which we helped design, I am confident that the training would have helped prepare him for the situation he faced. Dave Fulson | |||
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I doubt that I will ever have two weeks of marksmanship training to compare with the two weeks I spent on the rifle range as a Marine Corps Officer Candidate, unless it was the two weeks I spent training for the Far Eastern Division Matches, after I had been selected for the division team. That said, reaching peak performance in such a situation is useless unless followed up with incessant practice to maintain and hone skills. Could a teenager who scores 100% on her high school typing exam be expected to maintain her skills if she confined herself to occasional emails on the computer? Would she be willing to lay her life (or thousands of dollars) on the line, if suddenly called upon to exercise those carefully learned skills, if she had not been practicing in the meantime? Not everyone can be a successful competetive shooter, but everyone can experience the feel of competetive pressure in trying to hit a fast moving clay target, or firing five shots into a bullseye target at 25 yards in a time limit of 20 seconds. I am a firm believer in the idea that you have to earn the right to kill an animal. Earning the right can take the form of building a duck blind, scouting a hunting territory in the off season, spending time in the woods just being aware of where you are and what your surroundings consist of, and yes, by becoming a proficient shot. | |||
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This was Jerry Jacques and I did my first big guided hunt with him as a result of this offer. I am a big advocate of Gunsite and have been there several times. Besides other courses, I have taken the Hunter's Prep (still offered) prior to several safaris. In fact I'm headed there in June with my great-nephew age 14 for a class before I'll take him hunting. I'm one of those that doesn't get to the range or shoot off the back porch as often as I'd like. Going to a shooting school like Gunsite provides me an opportunity to refresh my skills and shoot under pressure with a trained expert watching me. It seems like it is easy to become sloppy after some success in the field. After the many classes I've taken, I find I always learn something useful and upgrade my skill level. After all it's trigger time well spent. I have never felt I wasted my money. I also believe going to Gunsite is the most fun I can have if I'm not hunting! Best regards, D. Nelson | |||
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I can vouch for Monty Kalogeras' Safari Shooting School. I have visited Monty a few times and will again; his knowledge and his courses have improved my fieldcraft. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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I have been to FTW twice and will go back for the Safari training before my cape buffalo hunt 2012. Prior to my first class at FTW (2008)I was only a bird hunter. From that begining the training I received has helped me become a good shot and ethical hunter. The staff is highly skilled and professional the course is effective and flesable enough to has some tailoring for specific needs. The facility is fantastic and the cost is resonalble and a really good value when you consider a comfortable cabin, great food, no driving once there and free bar all on site. It would have take years of dedicated training on my own to get to the level I acchived after the first course. I will be sending my kids there to be trainied there and I would highly recomend FTW to get started or amp up your skills. They are a class act. | |||
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