About a year ago, I saw on Ted Nugent's show "Spirit of the Wild" when he was hunting on the 777 Ranch, that they have acquired some Cape Buffalo on the ranch (probably through one of Jeff Rann's connections). I e-mailed the ranch about it asking them for pricing information and nobody would reply to my e-mail (which I thought was strange because they have always been quick to answer any questions before). Anyways, I was on their website this morning and saw they have updated their price list. Anybody care to guess how much they charge for a cape buff? $35,000-$60,000!!! Oh my. You can see their price list on their website here: 777 Ranch pricelist

Elandslayer, they must have a deal with someone across the river in Mexico, for the Cape Buffalo, because it is illegal to release any African dangerous game in Texas, for the purpose of hunting!

I doubt they have them at all, and that is the reason for the price, because nobody, with any brains, will ever pay that for a cape buffalo,especially in Texas, when he could spend several thousand less, and take two plus plains game or Leopard, airfare included in Africa! I think it is a draw to get people to book there for other things, whic are quite over priced as well, IMO! Hell, there's planes leaving every day for Africa! "I'M LEAVIN ON A JET PLANE!" AND.......That's the name of that tune

Mac,

I am not sure that is true. I know you can't release Elephant, Lion or Leopard for hunting. But, Buffalo ... I think maybe it might be legal.

I guess TP&W didn't get the memo that Buffalo are dangerous!

quote:

it is illegal to release any African dangerous game in Texas, for the purpose of hunting!

Are you talking about the "canned hunt" laws? If so, then yes, it is illegal to conduct what is defined as a "canned hunt", ie. releasing a captive animal into a small enclosure for the purpose of "hunting" it. It is NOT illegal to introduce a species into the envioronment (so long as animal health regulations are followed) then hunt that species in a manner that is not blatantly "canned hunting".

I'll not get into the debate on where the line should be drawn between "canned hunting" and hunting in a high-fenced area except to say that Texas law recognizes and defines a difference.

They only do it because people with more dollars than brains will pay for it.

There may be a loop hole there since the Cape Buffalo was not spacificly listed! However, if any one does release a cape buffalo, and sombody gets hurt or killed by that buff, I'd be willing to bet the word "DANGEROUS"would be key in the following indictment, of who ever released that Cape Buffalo!

You may be right Wendell, but I think anyone doing it is asking for some real trouble! There is an outfit in Missouri that advertizes Cape Buffalo, but they have never had a cape buffalo on their property, it is simply an attention getter, nothing more! They always seem to be just fresh out of Buffalo, and you called one day too late!

I'm sorry my curiosity got the better of me and I clicked over to the 777 Ranch page. I feel sick! Hey, I know that we are supposed to come together as fellow hunters and support other forms of hunting, but WTF? I have accepted the reason guys are drawn to these types of hunts for the goats, sheep, etc. and I have even hunted wild boar in this fashion, but African game? I already have to mentally question every Whitetail and Elk mount that I see in someones basement. Now I have do to the same for our beloved African species too? A Bongo? You've got to be kidding! I hope that I haven't offended anyone here, but I wish we as hunters would boycott these types of places when we see this. Some game should just remain special, even if it means that individually we may never get the chance at hunting them ourselves.

They say ignorance is bliss and I have to agree. I wish I didn't know about this place or wonder how many more places just like it are out there.

HUNTERS have been boycotting non fair-chase shooting experiences for a long time. It is generally people with lots of cash, and little interest in, nor knowledge about what hunting truly is that make these places pay off for their owners. OK...so long as it's legal. I don't have a problem...but I do object to the term "Hunting" being used so promiscuously.
Cheers,
Don

Hunting has become a rich mans game. That does not bode well for the youngsters we are trying to bring into the field. Have I hunted in Texas? Yes, I have. Exotics and for meat. And Texas does provide a good beginning or entry opportunity for those youngsters who cannot get drawn at home. But in many cases, the prices exceed to pocket book of most, except for the most available and and common critters, like deer, the oddball sheep, etc.

And I question what pride, or feeling of accomplishment, can be taken in shooting a Cape Buffalo, or any of the truly rare species in that environment. I am not condemning the practice, and encourage those who provide those opportunities. But it's just not for me.

That type of hunting is for the lazy rich guys that don't want to hassle traveling to hunt in the animals own habitat. For $40K you could have a hell of a nice 14day safari & but a new rifle to take with you!

the sad part in all this, is the fact that what was once rare and for what one had to do alot to get, will become more and more available as time goes by. animals being taken from a natural habitat and placed into another, foreign habitat is taking so much away from us as hunters and them as animals. everything is a rush job, everything must be faster quicker more convenient for us, and it must get better everyday. why come to africa when the animals are now found nearly everywhere else? the animals you have in the americas are wonderful to us from africa, and to hunt them must be done in their habitat. to hunt cape buff anywhere else but in africa just doesnt seem right? same for nyala. kudu etc etc. even in south africa an animal once found example gemsbok, only in the dryer region can now be found almost anywhere because it was introduced by people to catter for hunters who dont want to go to 5 diff places to hunt diff animals....
i honestly think its wrong, and no matter what price they ask i hope it stays high enough to protect the little what is left of our sport and keeping it the way its supposed to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Edwards:
HUNTERS have been boycotting non fair-chase shooting experiences for a long time. It is generally people with lots of cash, and little interest in, nor knowledge about what hunting truly is that make these places pay off for their owners. OK...so long as it's legal. I don't have a problem...but I do object to the term "Hunting" being used so promiscuously.
Cheers,
Don

Don, the post above is as bad as what the anti hunting people write, about all hunting. Because you make no distinction between one hunting ranch, and another, and simply lump them together without even knowing anything about their opperation's size, or terrain, and method they allow for hunting.

This is what anti hunters do, simply lump all hunting as being the same. That is not true, nor are all hunting ranches simply shooting galleries.

Simply because a ranch has a fence around it, to protect their very expencive animals, doesn't make it un-faire chase! Some of these ranches are as big as many counties, and have some real hunting terrain, with places that an elephant could allude you for days. I agree, however, that an elephant taken on a ranch, in Texas wouldn't carry the same value as one taken in Zimbabwe, but neither does that make a hunt for him any less fairchasse, or dangerous to the hunter, depending on the terrain, and method of hunt. Actually some of these animals only live in Noth America, and some others are far harder to hunt here, than they are in their origenal homes. I know, because I've hunted some of them in both places.

My personal thing is if the ranch will not allow me to hunt on foot, they are passed. I don't normally hunt these places for anything other than Feral hogs, and even then I only hunt these places with double rifles with iron sights, just like I do in Africa. We can set the rules the way we want, by demanding proper hunting on their places, and boycott them if they don't allow it,not simply boycott them because their is a fence on the place!

I agree with you that some of these places ARE nothing more than shooting galleries, but I don't agree that all are,and in fact, in Texas most are not!

My only objection to the origenal post, is that the prices quoted, simply do not make sense to even a dumb hunter, or a rich sniper. My wife doesn't hunt, and even she sees the difference on a financial basis! For $30K you can almost take three of the big five on a hunt as short as a 14 day hunt in Zambia.

DON, I'm not looking for a fight, just pointing out that, being fair, you can't paint all things with the same type brush!

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
They only do it because people with more dollars than brains will pay for it.

And the state of Texas allows it. Further, an out of state "hunter" in Texas only pays $35 for a permit to shoot the home grown African/Asian pets.

I have hunted kudu, oryx, zebra, warthog, springbuck,eland in Namibia.I can't really see that there would be that much difference in hunting it in the same terrain in Texas provided the ranch in Texas was the same size as the one I hunted in Namibia (12,000 acres)and many are.
I have hunted oryx in Namibia like I said and don't see how the Sands Missle Range hunt is so much different other than needing to get drawn for it.
I have seen cape buffalo on ranchs in RSA while hunting other animals and they were just as wary there as any free range animals I've seen anywhere.
Doesn't Wendell offer a fenced buffalo hunt in Zambia on 6,000 acres of high fence? What would make a buffalo on 6,000 acres of like terrain in Texas any less sporting?
We aren't talking about a 250 acre lion park hunt, that IS canned hunting.

Folks,

This type of thread has come up before and will again Even so the life of me I can't see where the problem lies. If you don't want to "hunt" under the conditions offered by a Texas high fenced ranch, a RSA game farm or a vast concession in Tanzania you don't have to. It is completely up to you. No one is trying to force you to do anything.

I think the thing to consider is if any one group in the shooting sports takes a Holier Than Thou attitude over another group it is bad for all of us. Being divided just makes us more vulnerable to the antis. Personally I wouldn't want to hunt a bongo in Texas and I used to feel pretty superior to those that did. Now I think I have a better handle on the big picture so as far as I'm concerned any legal pusuit involving a gun is a good one with no exceptions.

Mark

I don't give a shit if somebody wants to hunt African game in Texas. What I want to know is why somebody would be stupid enough to pay $10000 for a kudu or even worse $6500 for a blesbok! If I had all the money in the world I would not pay those kind of prices when I could have a weeks plains game hunt in Africa for real

Mac,

No, it is NOT illegal to have Cape Buffalo in Texas. If you have the 06-07 TP&W regulations book handy, look on p. 71 at the bottom of the page.

I have hunted one African animal in Texas, an Eland and it was as much of a fair chase hunt as anyone could ask for. It took me 6 days to get a shot at a matur bull, on foot of course. I would like to own a ranch someday and I would very much like to have some African species on it. Another thing to consider is that the prices for the 777 Ranch are not an accurate representation for all other ranches. I know many other ranches that have many of the same species for HALF the price! I think it's great that places like the 777 are raising critters like Bongo and Arabian Oryx. Even though I probably won't ever spend that kind of money to hunt them here, having them on ranches here is good for the species. Look at animals like Blackbuck and Scimitar Horned Oryx, where there are actually more of those species than in their homelands. There are several thousand Scimitar Horned Oryx here in Texas and probably less than 100 in North Africa in the wild. It isn't for everybody, but I think it is foolish do knock it. I challenge any of you who think high fenced hunting always equals "canned hunting" to go to a place like the 777, or a number of the other places like it in Texas, to hunt an Aoudad or an Axis and then come back and tell us all that it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Some of you should go check out the report on Wendell's Aoudad hunt on Red Bluff Ranch. I believe his place is 1,000 acres high fenced and it seems to be as fair chase as it can get. Sometimes I wonder if some people have any concept whatsoever of land area. 1,000 acres is a LOT of ground! Especially when you've got creeks and hills and rocky outcroppings and brush and woods, etc... Can't we all just get along?

ALP#4,

I agree with you 100%. But, it's not Wendell that has hunts for buff in Zambia on 6,000 acres. It's Balla Balla. Just to let you know. I think, in many cases, "the fence" is more of a mental obstacle than anything. In reality, most of the places in Texas that are high fenced offer quality hunting opportunities and anybody who tells you otherwise is either lying or has no experience on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by ALP#4:
Doesn't Wendell offer a fenced buffalo hunt in Zambia on 6,000 acres of high fence? What would make a buffalo on 6,000 acres of like terrain in Texas any less sporting?

No, I do not sell any Buffalo hunts in Africa under fence. All are free range. But I do see your point.

quote:

Doesn't Wendell offer a fenced buffalo hunt in Zambia on 6,000 acres of high fence? What would make a buffalo on 6,000 acres of like terrain in Texas any less sporting?

You might be thinking of Balla Balla/Peter Bird's brother's Zambia ranch.

If I had a problem, it would be more of where they are hunted rather than the prices. I would prefer to hunt an animal in its native habitat if possible. Many of these animals are cheaper than you could do it elsewhere. Hog deer, muntjac, rusa deer, fallow deer, chinese water deer - when you total your cost of travel and daily rates, it is probably cheaper in Texas. I have seen fallow deer on trophy lists in RSA for this much, and more in Europe. Hog deer costs about twice as much in the South Pacific, and rusa is about as much; you would even have problems getting a bongo for $30,000 in Africa when all the costs are added in.

I'll reserve comment on the hunting of African animals, my views have been covered by others above...

But I'm offended by 5-Stand being $25 ($1 per clay bird for practice!!!!). That's well over double the national average.

Kyler

I can understand the arguements regarding the size of the ranch/fence....but, it just does not seem right...especially for Bongo...give me a break! Bongo's live in the most dense and remote places on this planet...why the hell would you feel good about shooting one in Texas!

3 words for everyone.

"Jeff Rann, 777, Dangerous Game"

We maybe 5 or so words

The man bought the ranch, promotes dangerous game hunts, under civil political conditions(if we can call it that in Texas). Thats a big money draw.

That = $$$$$$$$$$$$

As long as someone will pay it, they will keep supplying it.

I agree with Mark Young, it does us no good to become divided. If you dont choose to hunt that way, then dont do it. I personally will never do it. However, others will. And as long as others pay there is not much that can be done until the laws in Texas change. But that wont happen because the laws are controlled by the ones with the money in Austin and who do you think will lobby for it............

MONEY TALKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mac...
No fight from me partner. I suspect we're in complete agreement. I intentionally did not attempt to define "fair chase" in my post. Suffice to say...in my experience,and in my humble opinion, the presence of a fence does NOT in and of itself eliminate the possibility of a fair chase hunt. If there is some universally accepted fair chase definition I'm not aware of that does not allow the presence of a fence...then my choice of words was incorrect. My issue is with the loose use of the term "Hunting" for what we know to be the practice of conducting "canned" shoots at game animals. Those aren't any more "big game hunts" than a flyer shoot is a "bird hunt".
Cheers,
Don

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Doesn't Wendell offer a fenced buffalo hunt in Zambia on 6,000 acres of high fence? What would make a buffalo on 6,000 acres of like terrain in Texas any less sporting?

You might be thinking of Balla Balla/Peter Bird's brother's Zambia ranch.

A cape buffalo hunt of 3 days!!! 5 days, but about 2 days travelling time.

What else would one call a 3 to 3 1/2 day cape buffalo hunt which is behind wire?

Does anyone know how many cape buffalo they have on the ranch? 5, 15, 25, 50 .... ? On what size "paddock"?

Otherwise it is all moot.

However when I saw "cape buffalo paddocks" on fenced game ranchs in South Africa, they left me very cold, and with no interest. If hunting among a handful of beasts of a species, it is a little like shooting the years purchases at the seasons game auction.

There will always be a few animals that the majority of us would not hunt behind a fence. Bongo is one of them, Cape Buffalo, being another strong contender.

I see more complaints about shooting an Elk on a game ranch than just about any other native animal.

I can only assume this is because of how we relate the trophy to the hunt. A Bongo hunt is a true wild experience. This experience is a huge part of this particular trophy, thus the strong objection by most to this animal being hunted behind a fence. Most view a Bongo mount as a statement of "I hunted in the heat and humidity for 14-days and this is my beautiful result."

The more difficult the trophy is to obtain in the wild, the more objection you will hear to that specie being offered on a game ranch.

Let's face it, everyone hunts for a different reason. To get away, to experience the outdoors, to see new and different country, or to collect certain species.

Most of us are collectors to some degree. I have talked to very few people who have gone to Africa and decided not to bring their trophies home.

To some, it is only a collection vacation. Do not think for a second that they can relate their Bongo trophy taken on a game ranch in Texas to the Bongo hunter who hunted his in the wild. They know the difference, they know they are not in Cameroon and they do not not fool themselves into thinking that they are.

There are some guys out there who are strictly collectors of trophies. Some of these trophies are bought at auctions, some are hunted. The collectors like the trophy, and do not necessarily need to have experienced the hunt to enjoy the trophy.

Some people hang paintings on their wall that they didn't paint.

Just because it is not what you would like to do does not make it bad. It is just different.

It is not my cup of tea to hunt Cape Buffalo or Bongo on a game ranch, but there are guys who want to. Time constraints, health issues, or just purely the desire to see a Bongo mount in their home.

It is just different ...

Putting aside for a second the merits of hunting at the 777 ranch, I have to disagree with Mark, Wendell and the other posts that are of the opinion that we are at the mercy of the anti's if we are divided and that any legal method of hunting should be OK with the rest of us. Well, just as in every other form of human activity, there should be some ethics that go beyond the legal, something most of the group believe in. In this case I would call it the "collective conscience" of our sport. If we as hunters are told that we should accept every type of behavior just to "get along", then we are falling down a real slippery slope. If we turn a blind eye to someone for any one of the many reasons listed ("they are a collector", "they don't have other opportunities", etc.) then what do we have left? Using that mindset, what right do any of us have to criticize someone who shoots a duck on the water, a pheasant in the grass, a deer trapped in the snow or a lion in a pen? What if the new Republic of Zambabzania makes it legal to hunt DG with automatic weapons? You get the point. We have a duty to the sport and to young hunters in particular to set a standard that will help them develop as ethical hunters, not just hunters that follow the regs. This kind of hunter peer pressure goes a lot further than any law in the book. IMHO we should never be embarrassed by this or succumb to the "what do I care what the other guys does" mentality.

As far as the anti's go, they will always find ammunition against us and we don't need to give them a wealth of bad examples to pick from. Don't agree? Take a look at what happened when they got hold of the news of the Texas hunting club that allowed internet hunting with a remote controlled rifle. They are still making hay with that fiasco. Maybe if we hunters had been a little less forgiving in the past, these mutts that started this business wouldn't have even given it a second thought.

The bottom line is that we can disagree on high fences versus free range or any other issue that might come up, but let’s never say that we can't discuss these issues in a critical way when necessary. We owe it to the sport.

Here is how the public is seeing "hunting" pets.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TRAVEL/12/26/idaho.elk.ap/index.html

Further, I suggest anyone read the article titled Wild Heritage in Sporting Classics (Jan-Feb 2007 edition) on page 85 written by Michael Altizer.

He gives a perspective that reduces the issue of high fence/canned hunt to a core of our values as hunters.

G L,

I do not disagree with you one bit.

Unfortunately, the fence issue can not be solved in a post on a talk forum. It might take many books to accurately discuss the issues of game ranches and fenced hunting.

The problem is that it is such a broad topic that covers so many different situations. A 2 acre hunting pen is a disgusting mockery of hunting. A 200,000 acre fenced ranch is a different story.

There are a million examples in between the two extremes.

I agree that we as hunters should support ethical hunting. I refuse to stand behind the "We should stand together despite our differences" excuse. If there is a rotten apple, get rid of it.

Defining the rotten apple and removing it is the difficult part of this dilemma.

Interesting arguements. It is great that this can be a dialogue between hunters and sportsman.
I would have to ask then. Does using a rifle mean it is fair chase. Some Bow hunters, many famous, would argue that using a rifle is unethical and goes against traditional hunting methods. Does using camoflage make it ethical? Does using scent make it fair chase, or decoys, or baits? If it is legal, does that mean it is ethical and morally right?
The defintion of a "hunter" is somewhat vague. As we can all agree that the degree of hunter is in the eye of the beholder.

Many animals require different methods to hunt. Waterfowl, Turkey with decoys and calls. Elk, whitetail with calls and scents. Pronghorn with a good spotting scope. Fish with a lure or net, Other game birds with dogs(is that really fair chase). Dangerous game with spot and stalk, baiting, and a good PH. Other animals by vehicle to get close. Or sitting at a waterhole.

My point here it is all different. The ethical and moral issue usually depends on the law. I think most hunters beleive that if it is the confinds of the law, then it is ethical and morally correct. Even if it is not our choice or method.

Now there is a distinct difference in taking game on a "canned hunt" Some states have banned it. And it think that is a great thing personally.

Do I have an advantage over the animal if I use bait, camoflage, and a high powered rifle. Absolutely, and some would argue that it is not fair chase. Does fair chase mean using a sharpe rock and stick like the stone ages.

"Fair chase" in my opinon is a very vague defintion. Who defined it anyway? Some legal guy in a cubical at Webster's.

Did all of the SCI hunting hall of fame guys take all there game under fair chase conditons? There is an arguement there.

Hunting is a sport by every means. No different than any other. And the sport needs to be govern by its own body. Which we have in SCI. B& C , R & W and others.

Good arguements ALL, but until the powers that be are convinced that the core of the hunting communitees valuse, ethics, and morals are at stake. These issues will continue.

But we are the only ones that make changes!!!!!

Here's another way to look at it. The fence actually has little to do with what really makes a canned hunt a canned hunt. The manner in which the hunt is conducted is what really makes it a canned hunt. There was a gentleman down on the King Ranch, who's name I won't mention, that used to run a bowhunting operation. There were always lots of deer around the camp because they always put out corn but nobody was allowed to hunt anywhere close to the camp. They started seeing an extremely large buck around the camp and they got him to where he would let you approach to within only a few feet of him. The guy who ran the operation had another guy that was willing to pay a lot of money to shoot that buck, so he somehow roped the deer and tied him to a tree behind the camp for the "hunter" to shoot for an extremely high fee. I can't remember if there were any tranquilizers involved, but this is a prime example of a canned hunt and it had absolutely nothing to do with a high fence. There are HUNDREDS of large high fenced ranches in Texas that offer quality hunts and the only thing you can notice that is different about them and low fenced places is they usually have somewhat larger deer. How many of you that knock high fenced hunting have actually been to a properly managed high fenced ranch? The last time I asked this question, I was pretty much ignored and I'm sure I know why. Anybody care to step up and anwer the question?

And another thing: How many of you who knock high fenced hunting here in the U.S. have hunted on high fenced places in Africa and didn't complain? Why do you think there is a difference? Why is it so bad to high fence a ranch here in Texas, but not in RSA?

My seven-day, five-night safari in Limpopo in May of 2005, to include three days of sight-seeing before and two days of sight-seeing after, the additional nights at Afton house, airfare, and "lots" of souvenirs was approximately $10,000. (One hunter and one observer)

When I figure up the same game with a four-day, three-night stay at the 777 it comes up to $28,500 (estimating $1,000 for airfare to San Antonio, Tx)

Going to Texas it would have saved two years of research on "AR", alot of paperwork, customs, medicine, and shots. Heck, I think the planning and preparation was almost half the fun, but it isn't eveyones cup of tea. Some will be more comfortable staying within the US boundaries, don't want to take the additional time required for travelling overseas and I would like to encourage them to continue doing so. And I will also be the first to admit those who hunt the 777 most likely have better trophies than me, but I would put my adventure and memories up against theirs any day.

As for the fencing. I have hunted an 8, 10, and 30,000 acre fenced ranches in Texas and never saw the fence. In Limpopo I hunted a 18,000 acre concession and I do believe I still got fair chase.

I am hoping the future still holds Cape Buffalo for me - Not fenced!

Africa is Africa and Texas is Texas you pay to play where you want.

I would rather shoot Buff in Africa and Whitetail deer in Texas.

I hunted a 5000 acre hi fence for deer and Blackbuck and just knew there was not a single deer on the place for the first 2 days damn amazing how they could stay out of sight.

777 ranch is way over priced $1000 for a Catalina Goat

I wouldn't pay those prices for a Texas Cape Buffalo hunt....


But it is kind of neat to be driving around in this state and come past a ranch designed like Jurassic Park and see the Buffalo walking around in it among other Exotics.

I have an acquaintance who is terrified of the idea of flying. Never been in a plane, never will. This is one reason folks might want to hunt African game in Texas. I'm sure there are others.

I stand corrected on the comment "..doesn't Wendell off buffalo hunts in Zambia on 6000 acrs of fenced property..."
It is indeed Balla Balla whom offers them.
FTR I was asking if it was Wendell not stateing it was he. ALP

I thought I would check this out just for shits and giggles...........the 777 does offer "one" cape buffalo, only one at this time. It is a mature bull around 36" with a good boss and his trophy fee is $45,000.

Any takers? LOL