Remington already sales double rifles in Europe. I don't know why not in the states.

Where did this information come from that they were going to be sold in the states?

Kokdyer, sorry, I thought it was well known that Remington was introducing double rifles under the spartan name (formerly marketed as Baikal of Russia). Here's a link to their advertisement. They currently are showing a .30-06 and a 45-70 in their double rifle offerings and at MSRP of $560 It's got me scratching my head.
Here they are.

This, will of course, refuel the debate about the .45-70 being suitable for cape buffalo and will probably result in the request for Saeed to offer "ignore" software for any post containing the 45-70 in it rather than ignoring a particular user.

Since there is no field experience with these rifles yet, it is impossible to say whether they will sell well, let alone be taken to Africa.
If the guns are mechanically reliable, well-designed from an ergonomic standpoint, properly regulated, and shoot well, some folks will use them on safari.
If they are clunky, inaccurate, and poorly finished, far fewer will make the trip.

However, I doubt they will have the cachet or nostalgia factor of an English double rifle.

George

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If the guns are mechanically reliable, well-designed from an ergonomic standpoint, properly regulated, and shoot well, some folks will use them on safari.
If they are clunky, inaccurate, and poorly finished, far fewer will make the tri

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GeorgeS, maybe the question should have been: What's the chances that Remington is going to sell a well regulated, ergonomically suitable, mechanically reliable, accurate, well finished, double rifle for $400. (we all know that the MSRP is not what is paid for guns in the US)

Most of the lesser cost side/side shotguns sold here don't match that description and they almost always have a similar to higher price tag than this.

My guess is the quality and chamberings will not be up to the standards the folks at this site will deem acceptable for serious use.

I voted before I saw what the calibers offered were (30-06 and 45-70). I change my vote to disagree! Why not at least off the 416 Remington??

What I've seen is a chambering of 30-06 and 45/70.

I'd buy a 30/06 double just for grins!

I posted this on the Nitro Express forums from a mail that I received from an English dealer in guns and a historian of British firearms:

"The Russian firm of Baikal are making a double rifle on their side-by-side boxlock shotgun frame. It`s imporeted into the USA by EAA ( European American Armory ) as the model MP221. The rifle is available in .306 Win, 30-06 Springfield, .270 Win, .223 Rem and 45-70 Govt ( .270 or 30-06 would be my choice. )The best price I can find for it is $454.54 with a beech stock and $556.16 with a much more handsome walnut stock. The same rifle is also imported by Remington ( along with several other shotguns and rifles by Baikal ) as the SPR22 under their `Spartan Gunworks` label. Remingtons` MSRP is $559 but they only have it available in 30-06 and 45-70 - and with the beech woodwork only. Baikals are not the prettiest guns around ( `though there finishing has improved dramatically in recent years ) but they are extremely reliable and as `tough as old boots`. ( An acquaintance once tried to dispose of an old and tatty Baikal 12 bore single barrel by putting a 20 bore cartridge up the tube and loading a 12 bore cartridge behind it. He connected a long piece of string to the trigger, retired to a safe distance and pulled - the gun fired both cartridges and spat the 20 bore out of the barrel with no damage to the gun whatsoever - even the ( full ) choke stayed as new.) He had to cut the thing up with a hacksaw to dispose of it."

Good Hunting!

I called my dealer here in Canada, and they haven't even heard of them. They said they may know more after the Shot Show at the end of the month.

If they get here, I'll look at one, and maybe consider buying it for the heckuvit. But, it will be for laffs, not for Africa. I'm not going all that way and putting my faith in a low-budget gun.

The deciding factor will be price. Prices have a magical way of changing from $500 US to $1500 CDN, after they cross the border. That'd be over double the price, even after the exchange rate.

No matter how good they are they still won't get good reviews because there isn't enough pomp and circumstance involved with Remington. Worse still... I'll bet they're PUSH FEED!

Seriously I haven't seen any way to take manufacturing shortcuts and still come up with a well regulated, well balanced, and reliable double rifle for a low price. They are a rather complicated beast in a succinct package as rifles go.

Kyler

Fischer,

Can you import them from the US? No iea about the formalities but just thought I'd ask.

Kyler Hamann,

If you check the Baikal website they have a prototype model at http://www.baikalinc.ru/eng/prod/rifle/mr221/ which they are planning to offer in a better finished form as a far cheaper alternative to the outside hammer Davide Pedersolis. I hope that they would succeed in this - they have a Valmet type adjustment for regulating the barrels.

If I can find a place to buy a side by side 45-70 at any thing close to the price quoted I will get one just for kicks. Go to Africa with it? I doubt it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
Fischer,

Can you import them from the US? No iea about the formalities but just thought I'd ask./QUOTE]

Mehul,

To do an "importation" ie. shipped across the border, would require a lot of paperwork and be a royal PITA, I think.

I recall reading on the Canada Customs site that a person bringing a newly acquired firearm back into Canada just has to declare it and have the appropriate firearms licence. You don't even have to register it at the border.

However, I've never understood how a person from Canada could legally go to the states and get a firearm. Aren't there rules about selling only to residents, or FFL holders, and background checks?

(assuming chamberings will be offered in suitable cartridges)

If they were going to be available in suitable chamberings, I agree. Is it such a huge feat of engineering difficulty to make a 470 NE instead of a 45-70? I don't know anything about this stuff, but I would think marginally fatter barrels and a different reamer would be all you ned to go from one low pressure chambering to another.

H. C.

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Originally posted by vapodog:
GeorgeS, maybe the question should have been: What's the chances that Remington is going to sell a well regulated, ergonomically suitable, mechanically reliable, accurate, well finished, double rifle for $400.

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vapodog,
The chances are slim, indeed. Besides, they'll probably install a 9-lb. trigger, always-on automatic safety, AND a J-lock.

George

It will probably have round bolts so those crappy Remington gunsmiths can work on it to !

For it to be of any use to any self respecting hunter out West they need to chamber it in some sort of .575 Remasaurus Ultra Nuclear Nitro Mag round or it simply will not knock down deer and elk.

I like it in both chamberings for up-close whities (deer, not people)! No way it will have the cache of English/Euro doubles of old. Pretty cool.

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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The chances are slim, indeed. Besides, they'll probably install a 9-lb. trigger, always-on automatic safety, AND a J-lock.
George

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If remember right, the prototype had automatic safeties.

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vapodog,
The chances are slim, indeed. Besides, they'll probably install a 9-lb. trigger, always-on automatic safety, AND a J-lock.

George

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GeorgeS, the voting seems close to equal number of thumbs up as thumbs down but there's another statistic that tells a better story. Of the 500+ views of this thread only 50 have bothered to vote. Yes the 500 views might only be 100 people but still the vast number of folks that viewed this thread wasn't intrested enough to vote. Since I believe 99% of these are firearms appreciators I conclude their opinion to be thumbs down.

For myself, I can't hardly say the words Remington and double rifle in the same sentence. It gives new meaning to the expression "oxy-moron".

Looks cheap to me, at least on the website. Not very graceful or attracive, but I suppose to some it will be something to play with. I doubt many would consider it a serious safari rifle at all - especially not in those chamberings.

How about reamed out to 450 NE 3.25"!

Those Russian doubles are brick shit houses, at least the ones I have seen. Do these include the Greener cross bolts, sumbuddy who knows?

ASS_CLOWN

As to being push-feed, yes with the thumb and forefinger.

I think the real question is who would buy one for the expected $500 price. My understanding is that the regulation is done by Jack screws so that will be up to the shooter to adjust. If the thing shoots into a pie plate at 50 yards I would buy one just for the fun. I would not expect the quality to be anywhere near a fine double rifle however the cost is so much less. This gun would be the Yugo of the Double rifle world.

I didn't answer the poll but I am interested in one. If I can get one for $500 I will buy one and put it in my safe. Once someone perfects the gunsmithing required to make it a legitimate dangerous game gun, off it will go for upgrades.

I called Remington this afternoon, Tuesday, the lady said that they rifles are scheduled to be delivered to the distributors in late spring, or early summer.

A double rifle under any ol' name does not an African rifle make.

AD

I'm a bit puzzled that their largest chambering for the SxS is 45-70 when they have a 9.3x74 and 9x53 in the O/U version? Must be targeting the N.A. market with the SXS I guess.

Maybe the reson they do not make it in a double rifle loading such as 470 is that 50 rounds of Federal factory will cost you more than the gun.

BigB

If it is as good as their combo guns it will be worth the price. I have one of their combo guns in 12 over 7x57r works very well.

vapodog,
You have to remember that a good portion of the folks who voted will never hunt Africa anyway.

The real test of this firearm will come, NOT from the shills in the gun rags, but from the Members of forums like this, who generally have a really good idea of what will work in Africa, and what won't.

George

Hey, I'll take one of these. MP-131K Baikal shotgun.



Unique ammo feed features a fixed tubular and takeoff box magazines for simultaneous loading of two ammo grades and fast re-switching from one magazine to another, the feed selector being located on RH side of a box magazine.

Regards,

Terry

I kinda think that people spending the money to go to Africa are going to want to carry something nicer than a Baikal Double. Maybe if they vastly improve them and put them in better calibers, but I don't see that happening for $400.......DJ

Here's a question: What could be worse than a Remington?

Oh! I know! A Russian-built Remington with a cheap-assed stock, a piss-poor finish and two half-assed, jack-screwed barrels.

Ergonomics to fit the proletarian Everyman. With plenty of money left over for vodka!

Okay, I know, it's time to put my evil twin to bed.

I would jump all over a 9.3x74

I second JBoutfishn -give me an option of +45 cal (450, 470, 500NE) and I´d buy one for the heck of it.

From the replies it seems clear that there will be a new round of gunsmithing on these guns.....It appears as though some will be purchased as "project" guns much like one might pick up a 1909 Argentine action.

The gun world has some very creative people and this cheap double will send that creativity flowing in a whole new direction.

Vapodog: At least the creativity for possible a .45-110! Still not "African," but a fun gun for bear and hogs...or these things..

Why not?

Manufacturers can made 9.3x74R's for $4000 but the same rifle in .470NE is $8K or 9K. Who is kidding who here?

If they can withstand 30-06 pressure, it could easily withstand NE pressures. Rechamber the 45-70 to something else and away you go.

Will

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If they can withstand 30-06 pressure, it could easily withstand NE pressures. Rechamber the 45-70 to something else and away you go.

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Will, I run some quick numbers here and the .30-06 at 60 KSI is roughly the same force as a .470 Nitro at 40 Ksi and that means a lot of experiments will be done. Thanks for that comparison.
Maybe we need to tell Remington to not chamber them....just sell them rifled and in calibers to .470 and we'll roll our own.....
I'm starting to see this in a totally different light now!!!!!