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I was speaking with Mark today. He has just been notified by SCI that he is not allowed to advertise (his new movie) in either Safari Magazine or Safari Times. They have banned him commercially from everything and this of course includes exhibiting at their convention which is now going on five (5) years. As many of you already know, Mark has been a member and substantial contributor to SCI since June 1976, first Master Measurer of Record Books, recent Life Member, one of only five Patron Donors who effectively gave enough money to SCI to buy the land and build the present day SCI Museum, and who has never been accused of any wrong-doing by SCI whatsoever. I am interested in what you think about this action by SCI. I realize that there are some here who do not like Mark for various reasons, which is fine, and also that SCI is a private organization. For those who do not favor Mark, I would ask for your opinion as well: -If there is a reason for taking action, should a member have an opportunity to be advised of the reason? -If there is a reason for a restrictive action, such as this, should it be documented and the member then have an opportunity to address and correct the problem (if it is not involving illegal activity)? -Should SCI prevent a paying member from attending the convention without cause? -Should SCI prevent a paying member from purchasing a booth to sell hunts or merchandise without cause? -Is there danger in this type of action without cause that others should be concerned about? -Does it strike you odd that SCI is doing this to him? -Could it be there is a double standard? I am interested in reading your thoughts. Best always, Shawn Shawn Joyce Diizche Safari Adventures P.O. Box 1445 Lincoln, CA 95648 E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net Cell: (916) 804-3318 Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™ Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com Blog- http://diizchesafari.blogspot.com/ Twitter- http://twitter.com/DiizcheSafari YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/user/shawncjoyce Facebook- http://on.fb.me/gYytdn Instagram: diizchesafari_official | ||
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With SCI's undertone in many unethical areas and their overt action towards Mark, I would rather support PETA than SCI and have dropped my membership with that organization. I know of an anti hunting organization who has and will send members to SCI to document canned and unethical hunting (such as the Sanctuary) and use it against the organization. Their secretive manner in the MS issue shows their lack of honor. It is a double standard and many exhibitors there do nearly the same marketing as did MS. I watched one well known elephant hunter standing in front of an elephant waiving his arms and rifle to either provoke a charge or flight. Many PHs shoot if their client fails to drop the quarry with the first shot. That they can do this, and many posters here do not comment against them, shows a double standard. I hope AK SCI goes on its own. If they do, I will become an active member again and contributor. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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SCI has dealt unfairly and out of policy in how they have treated Mark Sullivan. I expressed that belief to an SCI rep the first year it happened, along with a hunting partner of mine. We both happen to be past presidents of SCI chapters and are Life Members. Obviously our opinions carried a lot of weight. Disclaimer: Never hunted w/Mark and don't want to, have spoken with him and mentioned some concerns (many years ago at SCI) and found him to be a gentleman. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Shawn: Didn't they allow Mark to attend the convention after the ban? I seem to recall seeing him in the show. Is this portion of the ban new? There is at least one other prior exhibitor who was banned from exhibiting that continues to advertise. Why the difference? It is hard to form an opinion without knowing the reasons why such actions have been taken. I think they at least owe Mark an explanation. | |||
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 this should be good for at least 4 pages....Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I think SCI's spineless actions speak volumes about how the national organization functions. Like a good 'ol boys club. Sucks. Mike | |||
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We would need a fair bit of discovery and a full trial before I would be able to render judgment in this case. But it does seem as though the plaintiff has made a pretty good opening statement. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Larry, I did attend a show with Mark after the convention ban was imposed. He was able to obtain a pass without issue and we spent time walking the floor. During subsequent conventions they have not allowed him to obtain an entrance pass. Shawn Shawn Joyce Diizche Safari Adventures P.O. Box 1445 Lincoln, CA 95648 E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net Cell: (916) 804-3318 Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™ Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com Blog- http://diizchesafari.blogspot.com/ Twitter- http://twitter.com/DiizcheSafari YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/user/shawncjoyce Facebook- http://on.fb.me/gYytdn Instagram: diizchesafari_official | |||
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Michael I did not know you were an attorney or of a legal background. Perhaps I could coax you to opine? Shawn Joyce Diizche Safari Adventures P.O. Box 1445 Lincoln, CA 95648 E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net Cell: (916) 804-3318 Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™ Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com Blog- http://diizchesafari.blogspot.com/ Twitter- http://twitter.com/DiizcheSafari YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/user/shawncjoyce Facebook- http://on.fb.me/gYytdn Instagram: diizchesafari_official | |||
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It seems awfully odd to me. Barring a member from attending the annual convention is extremely odd. When one looks at the criminals who have been allowed to attend and exhibit for years (OOA for example), one has to wonder. SCI moves in mysterious ways. | |||
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He should put on a fake mustache and try to sneak in the convention. Oh wait... No, I've really enjoyed reading his book and have yet to watch his video, but he tells it the way he sees. I think it's BS. It shows a double standard at SCI. I don't believe he's allowed at DSC either, but I'm not sure why. I suppose I'll ask in a couple of days. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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I have met and talked with Mark at the last couple of shows and it is unfortunate that he has had to get in under another name. Like Peter Capstick and Ted Nuggent, you can choose to like or dislike them and their methods for one reason or another but Mark is a serious hunter with plenty to offer SCI. I would much prefer to spend time with any of the above three than many other high profile SCI members in good standing. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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They let Blair advertise...nuff said. I think I will drop my membership as well. | |||
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I am on a plane flying home from the football game. I have taken his book with me and read the first 145 pages. I have really enjoyed it. I anxiously await next months hunt with Mark and Rick. I strongly suspect we will all get along just fine and have a grand old time. As I have said before, I support SCI. However, many of their actions bother me. This is one of those actions. | |||
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+1 | |||
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I also think it unfair treatment of Mark. Like him or hate him, it's fair to say that his videos have created the spark in many to go on DG hunts in Africa. Unless he has been charged and convicted of unlawful activity in the field, I don't see how SCI can do this to the man in good conscience, especially considering his past contributions to the club. | |||
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I dropped my SCI membership several years ago when this first popped up after being a member since dirt was made. I did not know Mark was banned at DSC. Would someone please confirm this, perhaps a DSC board member??? | |||
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I just did! Good opening statement. Particularly with respect to the banning of your client even from attendance. Absent compelling reasons supporting such an action, I would find banishment of a life member (and I am a life member) to be indefensible. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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That was an awesome game Larry. | |||
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With all the rumors of how Mark gets his video charges, may be SCI has gotten some facts that some of these are not just rumors. And they want to distance themselves from him. May be Mark should have not antagonized SCI in the past for a number of years. When they have been asking him nicely they do not wish to see his silly video antics shown on the convention. He steadfastly refused to stop. So kicked him out. Frankly, both SCI and Sullivan have a lot to answer for, and clean up their acts. | |||
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you mean like the former President who( along with another prominent member) admitted to shooting moose in Russia from a helicopter? or perhaps the former President who was OOA's attorney/protector for years? if a person is a paid up member, i am mystified how you can bar him from attending as a walk-in. maybe Larry( Sellers) or Matt can explain it to us simpletons. they make you join the club to attend- then won't let you attend? very strange. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Agreed, Mike. Even a private organization like SCI owes its members some measure of due process before leveling a sanction. Is there anyone who doesn't see that as a fundamental expectation when membership dues are paid? In this case, to ban a life member and significant past donor from attending the annual convention without so much as a charge or a hearing is an act of grotesque arrogance. No matter your opinion of Mark Sullivan, rules exist to protect both the integrity of an organization as well as each of its members. Having failed in both, I have relinquished my membership in SCI and instead support the Dallas Safari Club and the African Safari Club. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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I had only read that here. As I'm sure you know, it can only be taken for a grain of salt. I wish I hadn't posted that now. I will ask around at the show. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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An uncommonly silly statement from you, Saeed. SCI's actions in this case are indefensible. Unless you countenance secret tribunals and kangaroo courts, it is outrageous for any organization to exclude a paid member from its annual conference without so much as leveling a charge or offering a hearing. SCI has benefitted from tens of thousands of dollars in donations from Mark Sullivan over the years, and he is a paid-in-full life member. To ban him for reasons kept secret from Mark and the public is contemptible. In this country we have a strong tradition of fairness and due process, both of which are absent here – private organization or not. As for Mark having "a lot to answer for", what total nonsense. You have famously made your contempt for his hunting practices known over the years, but not once have you or anyone else put forward a single piece of evidence of legal wrongdoing on his part - not one. Yes, you have made rumors and innuendo part of your personal assault on his style of hunting, but in the end it is how he operates as a Professional Hunter that causes you to fulminate. What's curious is that you have often stated your belief that so long as a hunter behaves within the law it's not up to others to question his ethics. For example you wrote, "I have been saying it so many times, and I will repeat it, there many forms of hunting that I would not participate in. But, if they are legal in the country they are offered in, I have absolutely no problems with others to enjoy them." I guess you meant to say, "I have absolutely no problems with others who hunt within the law ... except in the case of Mark Sullivan". Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Kim, May be SCI has gotten the evidence? I have had someone contact me who wanted to spill the beans. He claimed he worked for Sullivan. I told him to take a hike, and take whatever he claims as illegal activities to the authorities. There are many legal activities which I have absolutely no intention of participating in. In fact, some are so bloody revolting as far as I am concerned. Mark Sullivan's way of hunting is almost as bad. | |||
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I met Mark at the ISE show in Denver after the SCI thing broke. I asked him about SCI and he gave me the impression then that he was being treated unfairly then. I found Mark to be an interesting man to talk to. Very friendly and quite the gentleman. He gave me a deal on his two books, signed them for me and held then at his booth so I wouldn't have to walk around with them. His wife was as nice as a person could be. At this point I think Mark should tell SCI to pound sand. Its obvious that they don't want him around and he doesn't need them either. As an aside if a person really wants to understand who he is and why he hunts the way he does they need to read his books. Answers to all the criticisms and rumors are there. | |||
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Saeed, I have great respect for you and agree with much of what you write. And the fairness and transparency you apply in the management of this site is admirable. But when it comes to Mark Sullivan, I believe that his hunting style is so grossly antithetical to your own that it provokes a 'red mist' that clouds your better judgment. For example, let's examine what you wrote above. First, why would someone with evidence of illegalities committed by a PH in Africa come to you of all people with such evidence? Why not the authorities in Tanzania? And if his venue of choice is AR, why not simply post the damning evidence himself? Of course, the answer is likely that he is yet another 'unnamed source' unwilling to voice attributable accusations. Pretty scummy if you ask me. In any case, I can't imagine that you signed a non-disclosure agreement with this mysterious 'bean spiller', so perhaps you will identify him here and now. Perhaps others who might know him could compel him to come forward publicly with all of his so-called evidence. (It would also be fair to allow Mark to know the name of a person shopping around alleged evidence of his illegal behavior, right?) Second, and perhaps most importantly, if SCI has obtained evidence of Mark committing illegal acts, why not provide him with such evidence? Unless it is an irrefutable legal conviction of some sort, in fairness any such 'evidence' might be mitigated or disproved were Mark allowed to respond. Of course, I think each of us can pretty well guess the real reason behind Mark's ban: SCI is simply discomfited by his singular renown coupled with his best-selling yet controversial videos. No broken laws, no violations of SCI by-laws. His appearance is just no longer ... convenient. The fact is that, for much of America, Mark Sullivan has become the face of dangerous game hunting, whether we like it or not. Sure, his popular videos are deliberately outrageous and in-your-face, just like the man himself. And despite the fact that his films have arguably promoted dangerous game hunting more than any other factor in the past decade or two, they have also galvanized many of the 'antis' and gift-wrapped for them a powerful tool for displaying what they see as the 'cruelty of hunting'. For these reasons, I believe, it is no longer opportune for SCI to standup for its former friend and ally. Well I think that's pathetic. SCI should have the strength of character, the integrity, the balls to stand by Mark. To hell with the antis; do we really want them dictating who we associate with and what videos we can watch? And should SCI lack these traits, they should at least have the common decency to present their justification for banning Mark to his face. To take his money and then show him the door without so much as a reason is scandalous and unbecoming of a reputable international organization. Worse, it's bush-league bullshit. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Kim, thank you for your posts. As usual, thoughtful and well written. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Without a doubt, the very best, most logical, absolutely nail on the head, spot on post I have ever read here on AR. Thanks Kim. | |||
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We all know how weak,fickle and feeble such 'friends and allies' relationships can be/how quickly they can go pear-shaped. A certain PH was recently dropped like a depleted uranium hot patotoe and castigated online, .......based on mere unfounded rumor. What chance then, has MS got after being similarly castigated-bombarded so much and for so long??
[/QUOTE] I recall someone officially going to authorities about an alleged illegal Banteng hunt, despite as REAL as such complaint has been, some still don't want to believe it has any validity. yEt some people will rashly believe everything negatively reported about MS, despite there be no reveal of any official documented complaint being lodged with the appropriate authorities. | |||
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Gentlemen, We can argue till the cows come home, and without certain answers from both Sullivan and SCI, we will never know the facts. | |||
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Only four? This will go into double figures  ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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I'll take the over with Sullivan and SCI in the same thread. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Jump right in my friend. Remember, all this is done for entertainment purposes, as none of us any effect whatsoever on what SCI or Sullivan does.  | |||
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Controversy seems to stick to MS like a wet fart!  It does wonders to his book/video sales  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Same double standard as SCI. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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_______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, I am not SCI, and I don't have double standards. Mark is free to post here, just as everyone else is doing, as he has done in the past. Frankly, I don't care whether any of the rumors about him are correct or not. They way he portrays himself in hunting is totally against what I have always thought hunting should be. Sullivan displaying himself as he does only to show his superiority to others. Which is far being true anyway. Hunting has never been about glorifying oneself. Not in my books anyway. Actually, I find little difference between him and those self glorifying so called "trophy" hunters SCI seems so obsessed with giving all sorts of badges to. What is the difference between Sullivan enticing an animals to charge and shooting it in front of his client, and the SCI trophy hunters who get a phone call that a top 10 SCI "trophy" has already been captured for him to come and slay? | |||
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Kim makes some excellent points. The response is someone heard a rumor about someone that once thought they knew someone that might have . . . . There is no question that there is a double standard at play here among Mark's most ardent detractors. Sadly, there are few vices worse than being judgmental. Mike | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Sullivan Responds-SCIs Undocumented Actions Against Mark Sullivan Continue
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