I have had a boring Sunday afternoon. I have been thinking about my 2 upcoming safaris this year, my 18th and 19th. I have also been thinking about my prior trips including what was good and bad about those trips.

Unless we are walking, the first day is always miserable with me nodding off as we are driving. I have severe sleep issues as it is. Combine that with jet lag and I am a physical wreck early on.

I honestly believe that I would be better off for the first few days to sleep in the first morning . Instead of getting up at 4 say get up at 7 on the first day only. I think I would feel a whole lot better and be a lot more alert .

One side of me says not to do this because I am giving up prime time for one day and the daily cost in DG areas . On the other hand, I honestly believe that I could hunt a whole lot harder for the next 3-4 days.

Has anyone ever thought about doing this ?

Larry,

While I do not have sleep issues, I have thought about getting into camp if possible a day early to get used to the routine and to catch up a bit on sleep.

Harley

Pound the water down from the moment you step on the plane, bro.

Larry
We did a 2 day layover in Joburg before going on to Zim., that helped a lot, I think 1 day would have been enough though.

It's your safari, Larry. You set the pace. Nothing wrong with starting slow the first couple of days while your soul catches up to your body.

It costs me so much money to miss another day of work that it is difficult to take an extra day. I make my living by the chargeable hour.

I think I am going to try sleeping an extra 2-3 hours the first day this year. I hate that dragging.

2 upcoming safaris tell us more..

Anton:

We are going to Botswana in August for elephant with Butler &
Holbrow. Hopefully we will get big jumbo there.

I am going back to the Save for 2 buff and plains game in October. If any quota is left on other DG, that will be offered to me as well. I will be going with Zambezi Hunters for the 4th consecutive year.

ahh nice good luck!! Taking osprey to Bots also?

Yes but not Murray. He will be filming in TZ at the time.

ask for Lauri if he is avail, great guy!

Did he film your Mahenye/Hammond hunt?

Yes he did, also from Zim but lives in Rsa now. Have been with osprey for a long time

After 17 safaris i think you answered your on question.
Take it easy the first day own the next one. Then you can see if your system acclimates faster that way. You already know what it is going to be like if you follow standard procedure.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It costs me so much money to miss another day of work that it is difficult to take an extra day. I make my living by the chargeable hour.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
It's your safari, Larry. You set the pace. Nothing wrong with starting slow the first couple of days while your soul catches up to your body.

Agreed. I've only been over there once, but I was a mess my 1st day. Due to the anticipation, I only slept for a couple hours on my flight, and maybe an hour or two that 1st night in camp thanks to the hyenas. Next trip I'll utilize a prescription to get some sleep and I'll plan on rising early that 1st morning.

Larry

Alot of our clients are taking two observer days at our fishing camp which is a nice way to beat the jet lag- however that is the luxury of been retired!

Slightly off topic but you were talking of taking a cameraman from Osprey ( great company) for your bots hunt and that Murray was busy. AS Anton suggested try to get Lori he is an excellent cameraman and a true bushman also!!

For me its the third day. The excitement has worn off, and I am still off schedule. A mid day nap always helps.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have severe sleep issues as it is.

Larry,
All is good advice but the best advice is to look into and correct this first and foremost.

Good thread, I'm going to give myself the first day to adjust. I owe it to the game to shoot better with a clear head and steadier aim. Plus, I'll feel better and enjoy the experience more. Maybe this year I'll remember to bring some extra shells with me when I get out of the truck, that produced an issue last time.

Headed over for my first time next fall. On the advice of several friends and the Outfitter, I scheduled a day in Jo-berg and to drive to zip rather than charter so I won't actually start hunting till the 3rd or 4th day. that hopefully will give me time to acclimatize.

SSR

Thank you gentlemen.

I have sleep apnea which is kind of odd since I do not fit the profile and I do not snore. I have never taken my machine. However, I have a new $4,000 mouth piece that I carry when I travel. It isn't as good as the CPAP but better than nothing.

While I am sure that sleep apnea plays a part, I think it is mostly plain vanilla jet lag. I hate it the first day when we are riding and I am nodding off. For example, last year, when we got up the first day , it was 9 PM to my body.I am not as alert as I want to be.

I make my living by the chargeable hour. If I take an extra it costs me several thousand in lost revenues. I do not have that luxury.

On these trips, I am going to try to sleep until 7 on the first morning only. I am hopeful that will help.

Thanks Anton & Buzz. I will inquire about Laurie.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Thank you gentlemen.

I have sleep apnea which is kind of odd since I do not fit the profile and I do not snore. I have never taken my machine. However, I have a new $4,000 mouth piece that I carry when I travel. It isn't as good as the CPAP but better than nothing.

While I am sure that sleep apnea plays a part, I think it is mostly plain vanilla jet lag. I hate it the first day when we are riding and I am nodding off. For example, last year, when we got up the first day , it was 9 PM to my body.I am not as alert as I want to be.

I make my living by the chargeable hour. If I take an extra it costs me several thousand in lost revenues. I do not have that luxury.

On these trips, I am going to try to sleep until 7 on the first morning only. I am hopeful that will help.

Thanks Anton & Buzz. I will inquire about Laurie.

Larry,

First, thanks for the DVDs and the great stories. I enjoy the experiences through your eyes and enthusiasm every time I watch them

Second, while I won't argue about taking the first day off after that long flight, there are portable CPAP devices and they make all the difference in the world. I am not a sleep doctor but I do know the life-saving benefit of CPAP as well as the quality of life improvements that go along with using it. If the camp has electricity, you should take it with you.

Gotta keep you going so I can continue to go on safari vicariously between the actual safaris Pop and I get to experience.

We took a couple of days at fish camp last year before going hunting. It was my first time in Africa and what a treat to get your time clock back in order as well as experience the mighty Zambezi as your introduction to Africa. Can t recommend this highly enough.

Its Sold in Africa.

Learn to love it.

If I had a single drop of Red Bull, I would not sleep for a month.

Larry,
I took my first safari(of many, I hope) last July, and was given great advice from a man who travels often:
1. Noise canceling headphones
2. Compression socks
3. Prescription sleep meds (I got Xanax)
The flights going and returning were the BEST flights I've ever had, and I was in coach.
The Xanax was great, and I had 6 hours of sound sleep on the plane.

Mike

First night no problem this year arrv Accra 6:55 PM drive to camp change and go hunting!

The fish camp to start is a great idea,,,if by any means you can spend your 1st day in a hotel to catch up on sleep & begin to regulate to the new timezone...do it!

Larry,

I was recently diagnosed with apnea. My sleep study score was a 5 which is just barely apneic. BTW: I will glady die before I do another sleep study. My personal issue is with snoring, which I never used to do. three years ago, I started training and competeing in Powerlifting and my neck size has increased by 1.5 inches. This coupled with the fact I can barely breathe through my nose is a real problem. I may even have nasal surgery before August.

The problem with Xanax, Benadryl, Valium or any other sleep "aid" is that it actually worsens the effects of apnea as you are sedated so that your autonomic or breating reflexs can be impaired. I have never had a problem traveling and being ready to roll until Zambia last year. We were tracking Buffalo the first morning and I thought I was going to die. I really thiink it was due to the sleep and apnea issue.

People report anecdotal success with Melatonin, Magnesium or Zinc but there is not hard evidence to support this.

Breathright strips help me some.

Limiting Ethanol consumption is helpful also.

Surgery removing tonsils, uvula and soft palate have about a 40% success rate. I see the best ENT in Orlando and he told me that with my active life style, I would not be able to tolerate CPAP. Compliance with CPAP has been shown to be as low as 27% in studies. He recommended the surgey. The caveat is 2 weeks out of work and EXTREME pain. I think my personal chice will be to have the Nasal Conchae surgery, leave my throat alone and use the mouth piece.

Also sleeping position can effect the apnea. My own personal situation is that I am not apneic sleeping on my side. My shoulders however don't allow long periods of this position.

You may have to experiment to find out the combination of things that work for you. Hope this helps.

Jeff

Jeff:

We have gone through much of the same thing. I investigated the surgery. The risk/reward makes little sense to me. I bagged it.

I quit using the CPAP for a while. No human being could have slept with the masks I had. I had water running across my face, air leaks, high pitched whines from some leaks and/or noises that sound like someone is farting on your face. I got a new mask by chance. It is much better. I now use the CPAP almost every night when I am in town.

The real issue as it related to Africa is the time difference. Let me give you the example of my last 3 safaris to Zim. I arrive on the last flight at roughly 9 pm Zim time. By the time I get my bags,do all the things I have to do in the airport and get to where I am staying, it is roughly midnight Zim time which is 6 PM here. Going to sleep is damn near impossible. Then, they always want to leave for the charter place around 6 AM Zim time or midnight here. I have probably had 2-3 hours of sleep at the most.

When we arrive in camp, I am beat. I try to go to bed at 9-10 Zim time which is 3-4 in the afternoon here. When they get me up at 4 the next morning, it is 10 at night here. My sleep cycles are more f'ed up than ususal.

I am ok as long as we are walking. I may not be as alert as normal. However, if we drive very long, I am totally out. It sucks!

I gave up prescription sleeping pills years ago. I might as well have taken M&M's for as much good as they did me. I do take OTC Unisom not but an seriously considering quitting.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Jeff:

We have gone through much of the same thing. I investigated the surgery. The risk/reward makes little sense to me. I bagged it.

I quit using the CPAP for a while. No human being could have slept with the masks I had. I had water running across my face, air leaks, high pitched whines from some leaks and/or noises that sound like someone is farting on your face. I got a new mask by chance. It is much better. I now use the CPAP almost every night when I am in town.

The real issue as it related to Africa is the time difference. Let me give you the example of my last 3 safaris to Zim. I arrive on the last flight at roughly 9 pm Zim time. By the time I get my bags,do all the things I have to do in the airport and get to where I am staying, it is roughly midnight Zim time which is 6 PM here. Going to sleep is damn near impossible. Then, they always want to leave for the charter place around 6 AM Zim time or midnight here. I have probably had 2-3 hours of sleep at the most.

When we arrive in camp, I am beat. I try to go to bed at 9-10 Zim time which is 3-4 in the afternoon here. When they get me up at 4 the next morning, it is 10 at night here. My sleep cycles are more f'ed up than ususal.

I am ok as long as we are walking. I may not be as alert as normal. However, if we drive very long, I am totally out. It sucks!

I gave up prescription sleeping pills years ago. I might as well have taken M&M's for as much good as they did me. I do take OTC Unisom not but an seriously considering quitting.

Larry:

I notice you keep posting "back home, it is XX PM." I think part of the issue is psychological; you are thinking in terms of being back home. One thing I do when traveling, whether for biz or pleasure, is to set my watch to the local time even before the plane takes off. I then think of that time. Personally, if you fly to SA directly from the US, the trip is pretty easy from a jet lag standpoint. The killer for me is going to Dar or Kilimanjaro via Amsterdam; that means leaving the US in the afternoon, landing in AMS in the early morning (when it is now your bedtime in the US) and then trying to stay awake for the 9 hour flight to Tanzania. This year I pledged to stay awake during the flight down and slept like a baby my first night in Africa.

I have always been in a crabby mood the first few days of a hunt due to jet lag, but this last trip was much better.

Also, if you don't like sleeping pills, take Benadryl. It is not a respiratory depressant like sleeping pills.

quote:

I arrive on the last flight at roughly 9 pm Zim time. By the time I get my bags,do all the things I have to do in the airport and get to where I am staying, it is roughly midnight Zim time which is 6 PM here. Going to sleep is damn near impossible. Then, they always want to leave for the charter place around 6 AM Zim time or midnight here. I have probably had 2-3 hours of sleep at the most.

When we arrive in camp, I am beat. I try to go to bed at 9-10 Zim time which is 3-4 in the afternoon here. When they get me up at 4 the next morning, it is 10 at night here. My sleep cycles are more f'ed up than ususal.

Larry,

Welcome to my world. As an international airline pilot this is a common situation for me day in day out, week after week, month after month, year after year. And in today's corporate management style it's only getting worse. As we are gone more and flying tighter schedules that vary greatly from late night/all night then converting to early mornings while crossing multiple time zones all in the same 4 or 5 day period.

It's alright though because management puts out directives to mitigate fatigue. Super useful shit like, "Make sure and get to sleep at the same time everyday as useful tool to mitigate fatigue." That's the kind of stuff right there that makes folk want to go out and start beating MBA holders about the head and shoulders with sticks. But I digress..

So back to the point of fatigue mitigation in regards to circadian disruption AKA jet lag. Here's how I deal with it and it is a constant part of my life.

Daylight and hydration and exercise and let me repeat DAYLIGHT are your friends.

Hydration is number one. The humidity level aboard an airliner in flight is somewhere just below the humidity level in the Sahara desert during the dry season. It is below 10% which is VERY dry. The number one reason you feel like hammered dog meat after a long flight, besides the fact that your flight was late, we probably lost your luggage, the inflight meal wasn't fit for a Gittmo detainee,the flight attendants were surely, old and fat and you had 4" of leg room is dehydration. You almost can't drink too much water while airborne. So after you go through security and before you board your flight buy a bunch of bottles water to carry on with you. There is no way that you'll get enough via the once every three hour water call the F/A's do en route. Drink, drink, drink (No not that! WATER!)

The best way to turn your body around and get it to start accepting another time zone is to get out in the sun and exercise.Sunlight is the trigger that cures and changes circadian shifts in your brain. When I get home from a real slammer my number one thing to do to fix myself is to get out in the sun and exercise, but it does take several days to get turned around. None of this stuff is instant. With that in mind don't be afraid to take a cat nap or two during the day just limit them to about an hour or maybe two in the early afternoon. I find if I can zonk out between noon and say two in the afternoon when I'm lagged my life gets much better. And hey that's the slow time of the day for hunting anyway.

Powering through and forcing yourself to stay awake is one of the worst things you can do BECAUSE sleep depervation is cumulative. Your body cares how many hours of sleep you get in a 24 hour period not when you slept so much. The longer you stay awake the more sleep you need to fix it, so strategic napping is an important part of your recovery. If I try to power through I get so tired that I get hyper and can't get to sleep! That's always fun!

Things that don't work in slightest for me are;

Melatonin
Valerian
Alcohol (actually makes it worse)

As a pilot we can't take any of the prescription sleep aids.

However I have taken Ambein while on vacation here is what it does for me. It puts me out for about 5 to 6 hours I then wake up hard and can not get back to sleep. After two or three nights of taking Ambein it causes insomnia. I won't ever take it again.

I hope that helps somewhat.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I make my living by the chargeable hour. If I take an extra it costs me several thousand in lost revenues.

Larry, with all due respect, you can't think that way. By extension of that logic, you would not go on safari at all, or would always opt for seven days instead of ten, or ten instead of fourteen, etc.

We often combine other activities, such as sightseeing or scuba diving, with hunting. And when traveling half way around the world, we will schedule the non-hunting days first, so that we can catch up and decompress.

Highly recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter
Also, if you don't like sleeping pills, take Benadryl. It is not a respiratory depressant like sleeping pills.

But it does act as a sedative which exacerbates sleep apnea.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter
Also, if you don't like sleeping pills, take Benadryl. It is not a respiratory depressant like sleeping pills.

But it does act as a sedative which exacerbates sleep apnea.

Jeff

Jeff:

All I know is that my mountain climbing guide in the Himalayas wouldn't let us take Ambien, but he would allow us to take Benadryl. I know he is not a doctor, but he sure seemed to know what he is doing. And the doctor with us agreed with him.

Larry,

there was a relatively recent thread about travel with apnia

http://forums.accuratereloadin...841012451#1841012451

and the use of a device named Provent was discussed. I bought a 30 pack and tried them - they are essentially nose plugs that provide back pressure. While the CPAC machine I have is far better, they do work for me and might be something to consider on the plane. If you don't travel with a CPAP (I don't), they might help in camp. I intend to either bring my CPAP or the Provent devices to Zim this summer. Everyone one in camp will like me better without the snoring, I'm sure.

Of course, you participated in that thread, but perhaps you didn't try the Provent? I went ahead and bought a supply.

Larry,to make one's living by chargeable hour is not ideal way. I know what I am talking about. I am a dentist. But you have to get your energy anytime.
I am going to spend 14 days with CMS in DSA and then still 5 days in Chiwalo in Moz this June. I am looking forward to this relax very much.
Thinking about the way of making my living I always would stay in my surgery.
Petr

dr dog guy, I have been using Provent for the last couple of years when I travel, much easier then carrying the CPAP machine along especially with the humidifier. A few years back when I was still dragging the machine along I purchased a battery for it as we were going to spend 10 days on Lake Karibia with only generator for power. Long story short the damn battery fries and we strung 3 12 volt marine for it to run all night. Great people but it was a pain for them. I agree Provent is not quite as good as the maching but they do work when attached properly.

quote:

I honestly believe that I would be better off for the first few days to sleep in the first morning . Instead of getting up at 4 say get up at 7 on the first day only. I think I would feel a whole lot better and be a lot more alert .

We normally take it very easy on the first day, sleep in till dawn have agood breakfast and get to the range if we didnt have time the day before. look at getting 1-2 of the easier animals etc get an early night then start proper on day 2.