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I have read a lot about double rifle and how good they are up close and personal and I agree with that, but I wonder just how many have had to use them up close or practiced enough to know all their little peculair traits...The following is a test. If a Lion or buff was charging you and you shot at 5 to 15 yards where would you aim, asumming you gave him two shots.... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | ||
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Ray, In the belly button.  As fast as I shoot, he's probaly on me already.  BTW, if we collect more than the 200 gees Saeed needs for his 45/70 hunt, we will be glad to send you that 7-57 you need.  Roger QSL | |||
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Two shots with the animal at 5-15 yards, let's say 10 for arguments sake... Assume charging speed 10 yards per second (makes the math easy for my slow brain), that gives one second. Assume the clock starts ticking with the rifle already shouldered, if not I could just try to shove the barrels up his nose and pull the trigger when he is on top of me... Two shots? I'd be happy to get of one, and hope it counts.  I've tried "double taps" with my over-and-under shotgun with slugs at 20 paces. Best I could do in such a short timeframe (1-2 seconds; time starts when you pull the trigger on the first shot), was to go on instinct. I've tried the same with a Lee Enfield with aperture/post sights. The second shot is just pulling the trigger when you feel the target is covered, no deliberate aiming. Works out pretty well usually. This with substantially less recoil than a big double. I guess with a lot of practice this can be improved upon, but deliberate aiming? I don't know, I'd go for the head I reckon, and "hold" for centre. Must give that a try next time on of them pesky gophers charges! I don't know Ray, what's the scoop? Frans (don't own no double rifle) | |||
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In one of his books Peter Capstick talks about shooting a double at a charging hippo.He only hit it once .His question was , how can you miss a hippo at 6' ?? | |||
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Aim low, nearly everybody shoots too high at a charging animal. And practice a bunch first! | |||
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Your question seems to be three-part. In answer to your first inquiry, I have had to use my .470NE double up close (15 yards)one time on a buffalo that was refusing to die and wanted to come to me. In that instance I shot him a total of 5 times with the double, reloading twice very, very quickly, shooting him in the neck, chest and shoulder. For your second inquiry, I had shot my double a number of times before hunting with it to know how and where it shot accurately and with what loads. In any event, no matter how prepared you are you still can't be prepared for everything and believe me, I was literally soaking wet when it was over with. Finally, where would I shoot him at full charge from 5-15 yards? Depends on how he was coming, head up, down, open, brushy, light conditions, etc. But I would try and break his neck, shoot up the nose for the brain, etc. Too many variables here to give you the best answer and most complete answer. That's my 2 cents worth, IMO. By the way, in answer to the inquiry above as to how you could miss on a hippo at 6'? When you are in the situation of a charge from DG it's easy to do a lot of things including messing your pants, getting religion for the first time, etc. etc. | |||
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Ray A double is a specialist tool for elephant or buff in close cover. For a lion like that, your Ruger No 1 is as good as my Mauser, or a krieghoff .500/.416. Still, it is way more cool to solve the problem with the penache of a double | |||
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At that range on a charging animal you would point an shoot instinctivly.You would not have time to aim.You would hope that someone would break and run and the animal would charge the movement giving you a second shot. Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war; That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial. | |||
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Wait until he is on top of the PH then take a carefully aimed broadside shot. OK, on a more serious note, these things happen fast so you will probably just shoot instinctiviely. | |||
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If I remember well, Capstick shot both barrels from the hip....of course he was the same guy who catched a giant wild boar by the tail.  | |||
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Having only been charged by hogs and bison (thus far). I usually try to pick a spot just under the chin. If possible I take a knee to get a better angle. My closest was a Russian boar at 2 feet and a few bison between 4 and 6 feet. I mush prefer to refer to distance in yards but... | |||
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Shot at a black bear in full charge once, and led it too much. Aimed about a foot in front of the nose, at about 15 to 20 feet. Hit the ground in front of it. So I'd say tip of the nose, or just in front. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I would aim for the brain. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Ray, at that range I hope I'd be trying not to shoot my PH in the back!   Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I would take the best and safest shot presented and that can vary a lot depending on how he comes. If we assume the classic charge with head up and coming straight on and I have time for two shots, the first shot will be just under the chin and the second to the bridge of the nose. 465H&H | |||
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First off I'd like to know if you are asking where I would hold or where I 'd like the bullet to hit him? In the first place I don't want to have to shoot a charging lion at 15 yds, because they scare hell out of me when close! Howver, if he is charging "ME" I'd try to put my sight picture low in the chest,center line, because the lion is lower than you, and he is advanceing damn fast. If you are centered if the bullet hit where you were looking it would hit the heart, but more likely by the time the bullet got to him it would most likely hit the head, or spine, and if it did hit the head, or spine then I would have time to shoot him with the other barrel. The only thing I can compare to this is a Buff that I stopped with the help of a PH with a charge starting at 15 yds, and we both got two rounds off on him, all four hitting him. I was shooting a 500/450 NE double, and my PH was shootinga Berno 602 375 H&H bolt rifle. A buffalo is a lot slower than a lion, and he was damn close when his nose hit the ground. I'm not sure we would have done so well on a lion! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Ray, I got something you might remember, though it was made before I was born. In the movie, "Home from the Hill" (1960), with Robert Mitchum, George Peppard, George Hamilton, there was a bit of a hunting theme. I do however retain the idea that you should shoot for the nose. Good ol' Geoge puts down a charging wild boar with such a shot toward the end of the movie. I think the premise would be that the nose is the front of the nervous system mid-line; a shot aimed there would probably hit a little further back due to the momentum of the target, but still be in line with the brain and spine. If you are going to carry a big stick, you've got to whack someone with it at least every once in while. | |||
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I can't afford lion but when the zombie buffalo charged me I was trying to hit him full in the chest. Lot of good that did! Fortunately, Marius was not only a better shot but knew what he was doing and spined the bastard at 25 yards. What would I do at 5-15? Probably fall over and faint! Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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Oldsarge, you're a hot shit! That's a term of endearment here in New England, BTW. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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The last, honest Man!  Good one, Sarge.The thread on N. Atcheson's ordeal comes to mind on this one. | |||
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At 5 yards with an open sighted double rifle, the projectile will be fairly much on aim, perhaps a 1/2 inch low. At 15 yards it would still be fairly much on aim. Which I think is what you want as you won't be thinking about the bullet hitting high or low too much with a charging lion or buffalo. My rifle does shoot high so at 15 yards I would shoot an inch and a 1/2 low. Charging buffalo with head down, tip of the nose. Head up I probably would try the base of the neck into the chest at 15 yards and at 5 yards tip of the nose or a bit higher if he has dropped his head for the toss. Lion low in the centre of the chest, which for my rifle would mean hitting in the centre or higher, depending on the bound. Never had to do it yet, and last time I faced an approaching water buffalo at less than 20 metres I did start worrying about my rifle shooting high. We backed off from him as we decided not to shoot him. As he wasn't hyped up yet I am fairly confident a low to mid chest shot, or a shot to or near the brain would have dropped him allowing a second, or even third or fourth shot.
Probably truer to life. One of the PH's I used had a crease on his scalp from a client's bullet. From a lion that burst out in front of the hunting party but running away. | |||
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On an animal that is shorter than you I.E. a lion or a bear. You'll want to lead the nose by just a smidgen. Put it on the tip of the nose or just in front depending on your range. If you aim for the big part of the head you'll shoot to far back. Not a big deal if it hits the spine. On a buff if he is coming staright at you with his head up and there is no cut off angle. I'E you and he are at the same elevation you have several options. Tip of the nose or if his head is down, about the middle of the bridge of the nose. Also a shot just under the chin works nicely as it will break or shock the spine. Another less talked about option is if you are at a bit of an angle is to break the on shoulder or hit him where the spine and the shoulder meet. On my very close range charge last year the bull was violently throwing his head around and generally holding it lower giving me a very nice look at his neck and front shoulder. A brain shot just wasn't possible. He was also angled to charging kind of sideways. I popped him at the junction of the spine and the front shoulder dropping him on the spot. In any case one must remember the cut off angle on any animal that is moving and give appropriate lead. | |||
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Surestrike, With a double or your bolt .375 h&h? | |||
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My double is a 470 Merkel which I have shot much. I would just aim at center of mass and pray and pull the triggers. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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I killed that buffalo with my .470NE double. This buffalo   | |||
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I'm just an armchair guy dreaming of Africa, but at that range it would seem the only shot that would end the charge is a brain/spine shot as it would be far too late for a heart shot to do any good. So on a direct assault, on the nose or just under it would be my guess, and only a guess. Can't wait for Ray to 'splain. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Nice, Surestrike and good pics. Your choice of "backup gun" (the AK) for that 470 NE might need a little polishing, though. | |||
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I'm still waiting for the PH to tell me what the devil would score. Not wasting any trophy fees on a bluff charge. If he's a shooter than I guess I would do my darndest to put a bullet in his brain, and then do it again should time permit. No doubt the brain is the fastest way to end the discussion.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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The way I shoot, I expect that the best results would come by putting the barrels under my chin, it is hard to miss that one! DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Between 5 and 15 yrds charging at speed? 35 mph = 51 fps. Human reaction doesn't allow finely aimed shooting at 1/3 of a second (it takes 1/7 sec for a young person to get their foot from accelerator pedal to brake pedal) at a wildly bouncing target. I suspect I'd have enough time to get the gun up, to shoot (maybe once only), and then die. (Until I did the maths, I figgered to say one should kneel to shoot at lions since people tend to shoot over them since they move faster than you expect; and I'd seen a video with a group of people doing exactly that -- that is, shooting too high; then I realized it was futile -- best to die fighting back). Dan | |||
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Dan, Good point except that most charges start from a stand still so they aren't moving quite as fast as you are calculating. They are however accelerating in those first sevral yards. My buff gave a deep sharp grunt or it could be decribed as a short chuff as he stood. | |||
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Ray, I'd be lucky to get more than 1 shot on a charging lion at that range! (Unless I pulled both triggers at once) Where would you aim? Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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Ray, the lion gets two right in the middle of his chest... The buf three locations...head high right into the middle of the neck under the chin, head low either the top of the neck spine him and if head down and outward I would give him directly in the nose... Sight picture is very important... Mike | |||
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My previous post about acceleration is refering to a buff. I understand that cats are very quick but have no experience with any African cats.. | |||
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15-5 yards? first shot would be aimed while he came... bead on the top of the bare part of his nose, right up the head... 5 yards? for a cat, i would save the last round till he was eating the barrel...ruins the trophy, and the trousers... but it's easier for me to frame a pair of stained duckheads than mend from simba's claws. buffalo? same point of aim again, with the solid, but most probably not as well aimed, as my nerves would be telling me to wait till he's close, side step like my uncle's old spanish bull, and wack him in the neck as he passes... the bull taught me to watch the ears!!! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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For a real sight, picture yourself during the first ten or fifteen seconds after the animal is down. The real measure of a camera man is the look on the face of the man who has just seen his life pass before his eyes. Frank | |||
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My ex wife charged me once...she was kind of a cross between a buffalo and a lion...had a hard boss or was that a cast iron skillet...one of them metal meat tenderizer things...sure looked like claws and fangs...I shot her between the eyes with a rolled up copy of Playboy...thank God it's a think magazine...stopped the charge right there in her tracks. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'd aim for the center of the yellow-orange blur. DRSS member Constant change is here to stay. | |||
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Yo Mike, You really know how to take a CAT down at close range!  Want you for my PH work. (priviosa homewreckiosa) That's latino for tough bitch. Nothing like a big cat with kill in their eyes at close range......  Roger QSL Again, a belly button shot!  Roger QSL | |||
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Jeffe: That's that last-second fade to the side that Boddington describes. Very cool. Maybe instead of reading "Death in the Long Grass" before going to Africa I should re-read "Death in the Afternoon," eh" There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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