Maybe the topic came up because Ray has had a sat phone conversation with Pierr'e about the absolutely wild few minutes that we just shared, back to back with seven lions and two buffalo trying to kill each other and the two of us in the middle of it. It was like being in the center of a shark feeding frenzy, blood, guts and all, and we didn't have a "lion" cage...

I know it is unfair to leave you folks hanging, but my bags are still lost (I got home at 10:30 last night)... and I'll compose something about it later.

Both Pierr'e and I agree that we've never read any account in any book or have seen any video that compares... I just hope I can do it justice.

Until later..

I am happy to say that I have experienced and lived through 2 buffalo, 2 desert leopard, and 1 elephant charge. Shot with either a .470 or .500. The 2 buffalo were wounded. The 2 leopards and the elephant were not wounded just pissed off.

While the thought of it seems exciting around the bar, we are smart to hope that it doesn't happen. To me the key is practice, practic, practice with a double rifle. I think my first double I shot over 250 rounds before I went on my first safari. Practice quick shots, close shots, reloading, etc.

Yes we do have a tendency to just shoot instintively, and yes we do have a tendency to shoot high in these situations. But it is amazing how time passes in slow motion when it happens. Last year in Tanzania we were charged by a bull elepant in thick riverene forest in the Selous. I still remember thinking oh no I have the hood up before I shot, I remember asking the PH if he was a good one as he closed in, and I remember him saying "shoot him man!" The .500 stood him up at 13 yards(and my PH Harpreet Brar shot just after), but my instintive shot I don't remember was the one I spined him on just behind the ear. That particular shot Ronnie McFarlane tried to teach me a few years earlier on a standing bull and I didn't execute it too damn well.

Although you don't really want to be in these situations, before you go you need to think about these type situations and where to shoot. Study the animals anatomy.

I think the last thing to remember is that the first shot needs to be as relaxed and controlled as possible, hopefully he will fall. The second shot must be held to the last possible second. Easy to say, tougher to do!

The fact is that we never know how we will react in these situations. But we all want to know. You have to stack the cards in your favor by practicing, study anatomy, and thinking about possible situations.

All shots depend on your angle, elevation, etc but generally. As for the lion, hold under the chin. The buffalo - under the chin if his head is up, spine him if it is low.

Try not to watch too much Mark Sullivan before you go. He is indeed good, and he does have a big set, but he does purposely put himself in those positions.

Well Ray, i shot the bugger between the eyes at six paces and hit his mate at about ten paces. The Merkel hits a bit low at that range but you know that and after shooting many of rounds in self defense your mind corrects atuomaticly. Both shots where brain shots, its the only way you can stop them in full charge. If i didnt pass your test thats all right i am alive to hear your rebuttle. Charlie

maybe just below the chin for both? Hell I got problems shooting standing deer!!!

I'm still puzzling over the 5 to 15 yards thing:

It could be a scenario where I had already put 5 slugs in from a charge that started at 100 yrds, or that I was waiting until the 'critter was at 15 yards before shooting with my gun up the whole time --

OR I walked up to it until I was within 5 yards before it decided it had enough of my hutzpuh and decided to do something about it --

or more likely I was unable to take a shot until then because the critter was charging through brush, and my first chance to see it was at 5 to 15 yards as it busted out of the thick stuff. I chose to answer the last scenario as most likely to be the one intended...

Dan

What no one has taken into account is that a double is two tubes side by side and the shots do not come together until say 50 yards depending on how the gun is regulated....

If you intend to hit where you aim at 5 to 15 yards you cannot aim to that spot, you must allow for the barrels to shoot wide..

Aim center between the eyes and you will probably hit the right eye with the right barrel and the left eye with the left barrel...
To hit between the eyes with the right barrel you should aim at the left eye, to hit between the eyes with the left barrel aim at the right eye...

With some guns you can point shoot and send both shots center, some will not....every gun varies a tad on this..

This is the reason many folks get a lion or buffalo in their lap and I am surprised that no one could answer the question..aiming low is usually correct but again that depends on how the gun is sighted in...but as the distances closes the shot widen, and the angle changes..If the animal is charging at an angle then that has to be allowed for also..and yes you have to lead an animal that is coming to you, thus the holding low correct statements...

Another reason one should learn their rifle and practice, practicem, practice..

For what its worth.............................

Wow -- that is something I had not considered (having not shot one before).

But, having said that, it never occurred to me that the distance between point of impact and aiming point would exceed the distance between barrels until some distance past the point where the gun was regulated (the barrels are pointed to converge, and the widest part of the convergence within the 50 yrd regulation point will be at the muzzle). The photo on page 1 of these posts shows that, while the chambers might be 1.5" apart (maybe more), they are certainly not further apart than 1/2 of the distance between the buffalo's eyes... or am I missing (pun intended) something?

Dan

If I understand Graham Wright correctly, as the bullet passes down the barrel the vibration/shockwave/whathaveyou forces the left barrel to the left, even before the bullet has exited the muzzle. On the right side, the opposite is the case. That's what Ray is pointing out . . . I think. I don't own a double, yet, (and may never, perish the thought!) so my "explanation" is pure book-larnin'. Ray's done it!

I have no experience with dangerous game, but hey, this is the internet. Besides, I have seen lots of animals that didn't know they were dead move big distances. Will a brain shot do it? The animal has momentum in a straight line coming at you, so even if it is dead it can hurt you. Is going for mechanical breakdown better? One of the advantages of a lower center chest hold is that when you miss because you didn't take into account the recoil effect of your double or it shooting high at close range you may wipe out a front shoulder, or a rear hip and cause the animal to lose support on one side and thus turn the charge, or get the spine. If you actually hit the spot you aim for then you will wipe out a collection of internal organs but that will probably not be enough. For the next shot - well, the animal is a lot closer and maybe inches away from the muzzle, so recoil effects might not matter much.

Excellent point, Ray. My only double experience is with Pedersoli Kodiaks in percussion, .58 and .72. I always shot at 35 to 50 yaqrds. Never thought about a closer encounter bringing up regulation issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
What no one has taken into account is that a double is two tubes side by side and the shots do not come together until say 50 yards depending on how the gun is regulated....

If you intend to hit where you aim at 5 to 15 yards you cannot aim to that spot, you must allow for the barrels to shoot wide..

Aim center between the eyes and you will probably hit the right eye with the right barrel and the left eye with the left barrel...
To hit between the eyes with the right barrel you should aim at the left eye, to hit between the eyes with the left barrel aim at the right eye...

With some guns you can point shoot and send both shots center, some will not....every gun varies a tad on this..

This is the reason many folks get a lion or buffalo in their lap and I am surprised that no one could answer the question..aiming low is usually correct but again that depends on how the gun is sighted in...but as the distances closes the shot widen, and the angle changes..If the animal is charging at an angle then that has to be allowed for also..and yes you have to lead an animal that is coming to you, thus the holding low correct statements...

Another reason one should learn their rifle and practice, practicem, practice..

For what its worth.............................

Ray,

With all due respect.

I must disagree with your post sir.

The bore center to bore center distance between the barrels on my double and most double of my caliber are approximately .900 inches apart.

That means that each barrel is less than 1/2" from the center of your front sight. In fact .350" as I close as I can measure. We'll call it an inch for simplicity sake. That means that at the furthest these two rounds can be apart at only one time is approximately one inch.

They start to converge at the moment they leave they leave the chamber and have a very shallow convergence rate until they cross over at what ever predetermined distance your gun and load is regulated for. A properly regulated double always shoots the barrels towards each other.

If in fact your gun shoots the barrels away from each other you've got a serious regulation or load problem or both.

One thing that your double will not do is throw a swinging curve ball. In other words swing the rounds left or right then curve back to center. Think about it.

It has not been my experience that with any double that I've fired to shoot wide at close range. In fact My double shoots snake eyes up close.

If your rifle is throwing shots wide at by 4 to 5 inches at close range you've got one of three problems.

1. Regulation is way off.

2. Loads are at the wrong velocity.

3. Shooter has a wicked flinch.

As I own the same make and model .470NE that you do and that I happen to know that your gun is regulated exactley the same as mine. Mine does not shoot wide at close range and niether does yours.

If you have any questions about regulation and bullet path you may want to call your gun builder and discuss it with him.

Oh the other possiblity is you are shooting one of those ragged out old Brit guns..

No offense intended sir.

Repectfully

Greg Allyn

I am starting to wory about Ray and some of his ideas. As he or anyone else knows who has Realy hunted D.G. nothing is still for any recordable length of time and these events are measured in heart beats mostly. You take your shot when everything "feels right" from many past experiences and instantly know if the first was good or that gut wrenching bad feeling. Everything is instinct as your mind plays thourgh yet another adrenelon rush, moving your hands with the grace of a balerina,or gorillia, it depends on what day it is i guess. Some times those big rounds dance down the breech and other you would sweart they are ten calibers larger.If you do it long enough and often enough you get less gorillas and more balerinas . At that range the .5 " off set of the muzzle versus the target doesnt enter you balistic calculator that curentley is the fastest in the world at that momenent in time.Your eyes are glued on "its" as your hands dance and brass gleames and then the "thunk,thunk" you hands have been waiting for folowed by the safe like chunk, snick and boom, that usualy means you won another and he or she lost. You start to breath again and run the whole thing through your mind as things come back to real time not the slow motion dance of death you escaped one more time. You learn from this and look the animal over an especialy the entry whole to see if it was good or not. Its just another day in Africa when something had to die because it was you or it. Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
What no one has taken into account is that a double is two tubes side by side and the shots do not come together until say 50 yards depending on how the gun is regulated....

Ray,

With all due respect.

I must disagree with your post sir.

The bore center to bore center distance between the barrels on my double and most double of my caliber are approximately .900 inches apart.

That means that each barrel is less than 1/2" from the center of your front sight. In fact .350" as I close as I can measure. We'll call it an inch for simplicity sake. That means that at the furthest these two rounds can be apart at only one time is approximately one inch.

They start to converge at the moment they leave they leave the chamber and have a very shallow convergence rate until they cross over at what ever predetermined distance your gun and load is regulated for. A properly regulated double always shoots the barrels towards each other.

If in fact your gun shoots the barrels away from each other you've got a serious regulation or load problem or both.


Greg Allyn

RAY/SURESTRIKE You are both right, and both wrong.

I disagree the barrels shoot that far apart @ 15 yds, and I disagree the barrels do not shoot away from each other, they always do shoot AWAY, and UP from their counterpart on the other side of the rifle!

Greg if you take the barrels off your double and place them in a padded vise,by the lumps and support the barrel set with the sights aligned on an aiming point at the distance it was regulated for, then place two empty cases without primers, in the chambers. The if you look at the target through the primer holes, you will see the barrels "DO" converge but the line of sight will cross and be pointing low, and on the opposite side on the target. The right barrel will be low, and LEFT on the target, the left barrel will be pointing to a point RIGHT, and low on the target. The distance between the left, and right point on the target where each barrel is pointing may be as much as 5", or 6" apart, and three or four inches low! They do not just converge on the same level as the line of sight of the sights. Why this is the case is, the right barrel not only has to rise, but move to the right (AWAY from the Left barrel) durring recoil, and vise versa for the left barrel.

These are the reasons double rifles are only regulated physiclly by very skilled practicioners at the factory. If the barrels did not shy away from eache other under recoil, as well as rise, the the regulation could be simply done with the line of sight regulated on the target, and no fireing would be necessary. The amount the barrels rise, and the distance they must converge and cross, is greater as the recoil goes up!

What I am saying is, if the rifle is regulated at 50 yds, at 25 yds the bullets will be almost together, and the closer you get to the barrels, the wider the they will be apart, but no more than a couple inches with the right barrel shooting on the left, and the left barrel shooting on the right. However holding on the center of mass will be as close as you will hold on a 25 yd charge of a lion, I think!

The idea that the barrels are only 3/4" apart, meaning the bullets ar never wider than that amount, on first look seems logical, but that is the reason JJ, and a few like him do the physical regulating and not you local "GUN PLUMBER"!

I'm not trying to start another crap fest, just stateing a fact that can be verified by reading Graeme's book very carefully for comprehension!

Here is my best understanding of this question.

1) By themselves, parallel barrels WOULD shoot up and away from center (right barrel to the right, left barrel to the left) due to recoil, and torque (the barrel axis applies force off-center to the stock; this does not account for the cant of the stock, which adds an offset lever arm).

2) Part of the job of "regulation" is to align the barrels with respect to each other and the sight line to compensate for the projectiles' torque on the barrel while the recoil is acting on the gun. Almost never is this regulation great for long-distance, but that's not the point of these beasts.

3) Said regulation is set as well as possible for some short distance (50 ft) FOR A PARTICULAR LOAD. Different loads torque the gun differently, and the correction built into the regulation can be off. That torque may be unpredictable (in some of my rifles, heavier bullets hit the target higher than lighter bullets; for other calibers/rifles it is the other way around). One of the dificulties of trying to deal with an old double is to find a load that works well in them (matches the old regulation job). Or you can pay to have it re-regulated, which is not cheap or easy.

4) However, once the projectile leaves the barrel, if it was pointed at some spot that would put it on at 50 yards, the projectile is not going to do a loopy zig-zag in the horizontal except for wind effects (it will still experience gravitational drop in the verticle plane).

For the most part, I agree with what MacD37 said except that I would not agree with

quote:

What I am saying is, if the rifle is regulated at 50 yds, at 25 yds the bullets will be almost together, and the closer you get to the barrels, the wider the they will be apart, but no more than a couple inches with the right barrel shooting on the left, and the left barrel shooting on the right. However holding on the center of mass will be as close as you will hold on a 25 yd charge of a lion, I think!

I would have expected the right barrel to place the bullet to the right by 1/4 of the barrel separation at 25 yards, and the left barrel to shoot 1/4 of the barrel separation to the left of point of aim.

However, as I've said, I haven't had a chance to play with a double -- I have not experienced their eccentricities. It might be that the divergence is larger by a mechanism that I do not understand... I'm certainly willing to bow to experience (and have done so before, here). So, Ray, is it really THAT much larger of a separation than what I'd have expected? If so, how do they come back to regulation at 50 ft and still conserve angular momentum? Or is this more of a psychological/psychomechanical trick of aiming?

Dan

Mac/Ray,

One of the things that I truly enjoy about the AR site is the ability for knowledgeable members to express ideas thoughts opinions and previous experience in a meaningful and civil discourse.

I acquiesce to your superior knowledge about the regulation of double rifles. To argue that simple fact would be a case of talking out of my ass because my mouth knows better.

I had a talk with the manufacturer of the rifles in question today before I posted this and must say I may well be under informed as to the regulation of a double.

What I am not misinformed about however is the degree as to which these bullets will fly off course. As you mentioned. The bullet should not be 5 or 6 inches off the line of sight at 10 or 15 yards.

I respect Ray and for the most part find his posts to be informative and correct.

It is also not my intention to start a shit storm with any of the members on this thread. I reserve that for troll baiting on some "other" threads around the site..

Having reread my post I find it to be harsh in tone and a bit disrespectful as well.

To Ray and all the other members on this thread please accept my apologies. It was not my intention to cast dispersions on Ray.

It was my intention to add a bit of humor to my post to lighten it. Having reread the post I see that it didn't come across that way. If you could have seen my body language and facial expressions you'd have known that. Unfortunately this medium of communication does not allow for that. I'll try and be more careful in the future.

Respectfully

Greg Allyn

surestrike

You are absolutely correct. If a Double rifle is regulated perfectly the bullets will never cross, only fly parallel into the ground downrange.

The bullets will never be farther apart than the distance between the centerlines of the barrels.

As Mac stated the barrels are pointed down and in to compensate for the 'flip' of the barrels as the bullet travels down the bore. That 'flip' is timed to 'throw' the bullet out at the exact place that will allow it to travel downrange and parallel to the aiming track.

Bullets do not slide or curve into the target and then cross at some magical point and continue on like a big X. Not if the rifle is regulated Perfectly

Rifles cross because they are never regulated perfectly. Some never cross, the bullets just seperate the farther out they go until accuracy is lost. Some cross at 50 yards, 100, or 1000 and continue apart until accuracy is lost. It is almost a physical impossibility for the bullets to be 4-5 inches apart at 5-15 yards. Not unless the rifle regulation is totally wrong and then the rifle will be useless at any range.

DanEp, the right barrel never places a bullet on the right, and the left barrel on the left till it gets out of the barrel! At the 25 yd mark for a rifle regulated at 50 yds, the right barrel willbe on the right, and the left barrel will be on the left, but not by much!

Many people mistakenly think that a rifle with a perfect load that shoots to the regulation of the rifle will automaticlly cross at that distance, and continue to widen the farther it goes. This is not the case . A perfect load in a double rifle will group all shots from the right barrel slightly on the right, and all shots from the left barrel will group slightly on the left, but with both groups close enough together to form a composite group. As the bullets fly farther down range, the group will inlarge, but will remain as a composite group, with all bullets dropping approximately the same amount, because of dropping speed, just like any other bullet fired from any kind of rifle.
That being said, there is rarely a "PERFECT" load, in any kind of rifle, but in a double rifle it is exagerated! If however the load could be made perfect, to the regulation, it would remain close to paralell from slightly out of the muzzle till it hits the ground from drop. Like a group from a single barrel rifle that shoots 1" at 100 yds, will spread to aprox 2" at 200 yds with the attending drop, down range.

There are many misconceptions about double rifles. One is that a double rifle is only accurate at one range. This is not the case. It is as accurate with both barrels, as the most open shooting barrel, regardless of range, that is if the load is proper for the rifle.

Everything in my first post is assumeing that the load is proper for the regulation of the rifle. Change anything with the load, and it is back to the fireing line to work up a new load. Like Ray, I have been shooting double rifles for about 48 years,buying my first in 1958 and have had to learn the process on my own, because till the last 4 or 5 yrs, there were no books that explained the process. And there are many top gun smiths, today who do not understand double rifles, and as a rule, the most ignorant on them are the big bore long range rifle competitors. First, they simply don't understand the low velocities, and secondly they most often do not understand the concept of regulation. Over the years, I have bought several fine double rifles from very well trained riflemen, who bought themselves a double rifle, and thought something was "BENT", and thought they were unloading, on me, a bad rifle, at half what they just paid for it,
because they didn't know how to make it shoot. Smileing as they walked away counting my money. Not realizeing they were the one who was taken.

All I can say is if the regulation of the barrels, or the working up a proper load to shoot properly to the regulation,was as easy as most think, then everyone would be doing it, everyone would be useing them, and everyone would be building double rifles. Then once in a while you find a double rifle that simply will not follow the rules. In that case you call JJ at Champlins, to re-regulate the barrels to a your load!

Gentlemen,
It had been my experience that in my 3 doubles, a Chapuis 9,3x74R, a British 450/400 3 1/4" and in my British 450 No2, that with the loads I use, which regulate to the sights, the right and left barrels do not cross, at least to 300 yards, which is the distance I have shot all 3 rifles to.
When developing loads I have had the bbls cross, as close as 50 yards. However with the loads I use, from normal field positions, "crossing" is not a problem.
At 100,200, and 300 yards, my Chapuis always shoots the right bbl a little higher than the left, but not enough difference to miss a coyote at 271 yds or a kudu at a little over 300 yards. I have taken game to 120 yards [elephant] with my 450 No2, [deer at 85 yards], and caribou at 85 yards and 150 yards with my 450/400.
I can shoot as good in the field with a big bore iron sighted double as I can with an iron sighted big bore bolt, and for me the double is the far, far, superior hunting rifle.
Same for the scope sighted medium bore double.
In fact I consider the 9,3x74R Chapuis double rifle the finest hunting rifle on the planet, under 40 cal.
When I bought the rifle I did not plan it that way.... It just has happened.

450,

My .470 is ditto to what you describe.

I've killed game at over 200 yards with mine and at that distance with my loads the rounds do not cross. At 100 yards the rifle shoots left to left right to right by about 1 to 2 inches. That is mostley operator dependant.

The right barrel is usually about 2 inches lower than the left at 100 yards. At 200 yards the right is about 4 inches lower.

Niether of these factors are problematic on game animals as it is plenty good enough.

I reguarly ding a 18"steel plate at 200 yards with with both barrels with my rifle. I like to do it most often after having one of those "Yeah but a double is only good at short range" discussions at the local shooting facility.

I have NO experience with classic English guns besides fondeling them and drooling on them. It seems that the rifles of modern manufacture are pretty good shooters overall?

Surestrike
I have shot several modern big bore doubles.
3 Chapuis 470's, a Krieghoff 500/416, a Merkel 470, a Merkel 500 Nitro, and a Searcy 500 Nitro. I can assure you all of them were plenty accurate. I would not hesitate to hunt with any of them.

Them "Bolt Rifle Trash" people do not know what they are missing.

Even them $9000.00 Bolt Rifle Trash, could learn a thing or two if they would use a Double Rifle. [Sorry Alan , could not resist. ] Course a fella could Sigourney Weaver a couple of them Echols bolt guns together.... but it ain't quite the same.

Ok enough Ray bashing! He brought up a good point and its something to think about if you take shots at the mid point of your doubles registration range. Some times its pure luck to hit the mark when things go to hell in an eye blink, and it doesnt matter how good you are we all miss from time to time. You can bring up the technical side of barrel regulation,ocilation,harmonics and the like , but it doesnt matter a hill of beans when you have two rounds, saftey off, and your about to touch off the right barrel at the entended target, usual brains. Thats when he side steps and you hit him in his right cheek wich makes him madder than he already is (and faster i might add) before you shot him. You know where your rifle hits at this range and you wait till you can smell his breath to put the very last one in his brain. Thats hunting with doubles minus all the internet Buff hunters and their technical bullshit. P.S. Ray, i apologize, keep bringing up these ideas they make us better hunters. Charlie

I have had my understanding of doubles improved by this conversation. My thanks to all of you. I think I will buy the idea that regulated rifles shooting their appropriate loads are supposed to shoot in parallel, not crossing at all (though that contradicted some of what I'd read).

But, for me, reading is the only joy of these things I've had a chance to enjoy... so far. So, the best I can do is to try to understand them according to what knowledge I've obtained from my experience of other firearms (some of them bolts, some of them BPCR target rifles, including my Hepburn and other more modern single shots). Its not exactly arm-chair, but it isn't hands-on experience either.

Thank you, Ray, for raising the question. It has provoked a lot of discussion that will likely contribute to my purchase of a double sometime (not too soon -- my wife would be perturbed...)

Dan

Most interesting thread. I've read Graeme's book and learned a lot from him, too. If another double ever passes through my hands, you can bet I will practice with its regulated loads at 15 yards as well as 50 and 100.

I'd drop the gun and put my running shoes on.

Don't have to outrun the lion. Only have to outrun the PH!

Fischer
I used to say the same thing about bears when my wife and I hunted/backpacked in bear country.
However after a little research I learned that bears and lions usually fixate on one person, and head for him, so even if you can outrun all the folks with you, you cannot outrun the lion.

Better plan: Get a good double rifle and practice.

I came to this conclusion of barrels shooting parrell up to about 10 or so yards twofold..First I noticed most hunters shot to the right of POI on brain shots on elephant and got a vague idea from several charging lions that were hit in the eye, when asked the hunter said he was holding center...

Recently I had the great opertunity to put my theory to test....At a recent double rifle shoot in Oregon, I noticed that everyone shot right and left of the charging Lion contest with the exception of a couple that just lucked one in and the other went to Mars....

I tested myself both ways and with my theory I put both shots in the 3" bull between the Lions eyes, and advanced to the final go as I recall, at which time I borrowed another double and point shot at the Lion, and went wide...

However from observation and personal experience I am convienced of my theory, at least for now....

I think its certainly worth consideration and all double gun shooters should test it before condeming it or bashing ole Ray, hell it just might save your sorry ass!

But to each his own.

MacD37,

I think you just said what I did -- except that your statement that

quote:

DanEp, the right barrel never places a bullet on the right, and the left barrel on the left till it gets out of the barrel! Wink At the 25 yd mark for a rifle regulated at 50 yds, the right barrel willbe on the right, and the left barrel will be on the left, but not by much!

reflects what must be a point of confusion. If the bullet is in the right barrel (being the right one because it is on the right), then it must be right of a cartridge loaded in the left barrel (seeing as the left barrel is called the "left barrel" because it is to the left of the right barrel). The muzzles of the left and right barrels are similarly to the left and to the right of the center line marked by the sight rib. Hence, the projectile of the right barrel will be to the right of a similar projectile fired from the left barrel. The question is, what happens to the projectile upon leaving the barrel? As was pointed out, the right barrel must point down and to the left in order for the projectile to leave the right muzzle aligned with the sight picture at the moment the trigger broke. In a regulation that brings the projectiles to point-of-aim at 50 yards (instead of slightly right and left from the right and left barrels respectively -- see quotes about this below), the right barrel would have been regulated to point slightly left, and would cross at point-of-impact. It has been pointed out on this site that this is NOT how things are supposed to work. However, as I have not had personal experience, I must rely on other sources, such as this one: http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm , which contains a description of regulation

quote:

Regulation of Double Rifles - If the two barrels of a double-barrel shotgun shot 3" apart at 25 yards, not many people would notice because the pattern from each barrel, spreading two feet across at that range, would largely overlap. If, on the other hand, the two barrels of a double rifle shot 3" apart at 25 yards, it would probably shoot 6" apart at 50 yards and 12" apart at 100 yards, limiting its utility.

One cannot build a double rifle, using sophisticated mass-production machinery with barrels perfectly parallel and expect both barrels to shoot to a common point of impact. While the bullet is traveling down the right barrel (of a side-by-side double rifle) the rifle will be pushed up and to the right, throwing the bullet up and to the right when it exits the muzzle. While the bullet is traveling down the left barrel, the rifle will be pushed up and to the left, throwing the bullet up and to the left when it exits the muzzle. To compensate for the movement of a double rifle while bullets are traveling down the barrels, it must be built with the barrels converging towards the muzzle (by a mysterious amount). Because different powder charges, bullet weights, rifle weights, shooter body weights, ambient temperatures, etc., all effect the way a rifle moves under recoil, the only way to balance these factors is by trial and error. This process is called regulation.

The goal of regulation is to make the rifle shoot both barrels to a common point of impact at a range appropriate for the calibre.

One can proceed generally in either of two ways: adjusting the relative position of the barrels or adjusting the load. If one has a fixed load in mind, the former method must be used. It involves repetitive unsoldering and resoldering the barrels until the required convergence is achieved, then relaying the ribs and finally refinishing the barrels.

A simpler method is to vary the load. The longer the bullet spends traveling down the barrel, the greater the force is exerted on the rifle to cause it to move while under recoil. If bullets from the left and right barrels strike the target too far apart at the desired range, and have crossed before they reach the target, the velocity is too great. The bullet weight must therefore be increased or the powder charge decreased. If bullets from the left and right barrels strike the target at the desired range too far apart, but have not crossed before they reach the target, the velocity is too slow. The bullet weight must therefore be decreased or the powder charge increased.

The construction of an effective double rifle is the apogee of the gunmaker's art. If, however, one comes into possession of a double rifle for which the original load is unknown, one can often make it shoot well by adjusting the load to the rifle.

This definition is not unique to that one site. Here's another one: http://www.snipercountry.com/Compendium/Comp_R.htm

quote:

Regulate / Barrel Regulation - In double-barrel rifles, the process of getting both barrels to shoot to the same point of impact with a given load at a given distance. This is normally done to around 70 metres. The further away from this regulated distance one shoots, the more one must compensate for left/right point of impact.

HOWEVER, I know there are more ways to skin a cat, and everyone has their own perferred methods, each with their virtues. More than accepting that, I seriously respect it. But having said that, and noting the precident for a regulation that allows bullet paths to cross at some point of impact (which could be adjusted by simply adjusting the load a little bit and then adjusting the leaf-sights), then I think what I'd said before is consistent with that view. However, simply noting the controversy over what is "correct," I still bow to the experience of the members here, and accept the virtues of a rifle which does not act like Clarence the Cross-Eyed Lion!

Long winded statement just to try to preserve my pride :-(

Fischer, NE 450 #2: I had also heard this joke as one of the bear hunting jokes (even used it myself in a hunter safety class, right along with the one about instructions to hikers: 1) wear bells to warn bears you're coming, 2) use pepper spray to ward off attacks, and 3) you can recognize bear scat by the presence of bells and the smell of peppers). But given the warning about sticking to AFRICAN HUNTING themes, I figger'd not to say anything until NE450#2 spouted off...

Dan

Charlie Mac,
Your correct sir, when being charged by Lion or Buffalo about all one can do is take his best shot at the middle of an orange ball of fur..but If I am shooting an elephant broadside at say 7 yards I will aim to the forward part of the brain to allow for the dispersion of the right barrel or too the the opposite for the rear trigger (left barrel)....I believe this is why so many brain shots are miffed...the hunter is put too close with a double rifle perhaps..

Surestrike,
I took no offense to your posts, I read it and took it into consideration, but it will take a lot more than balistic jargon to change my mind on this...I may be wrong but I don't think so, at least at this point...I intend to further test my theory since all of it is based on off hand shots and that could have a bearing on the scenario...however I have been using this approach for more than a few years with a double and its worked either by fact or fate!

Thanks for the informative thread. It's threads like this that keep me coming back to AR. I have never shot a double rifle, but I am planning on buying one in '06 as a Christmas present to myself.

One other comment: the two articles I'd cited give more support for Ray A's experience that the distance from point of aim shifts when you're shooting at a target closer than the regulated point of aim for those rifles regulated to shoot to a point of aim at a certain fixed distance.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
MacD37,

[QUOTE]
One cannot build a double rifle, using sophisticated mass-production machinery with barrels perfectly parallel and expect both barrels to shoot to a common point of impact.

The above is absolutely true!

While the bullet is traveling down the right barrel (of a side-by-side double rifle) the rifle will be pushed up and to the right, throwing the bullet up and to the right when it exits the muzzle.

the above is also true. While the barrel is being push up, and to the right, the sights which were on the point of aim when the trigger was pulled, are now up, and to the right as well. When the bullet exits the muzzle, if the load is regulating, the bullet is in line with where the sight "WAS" when the trigger was pulled, only to the right of the center of the sight by the distance between the sight, and the center of the right bore! If the bullet were still pointing to the left, or farther to the right that is where it would hit the target, and would not be regulated, because the rifle has no control over the bullet once it leaves the bore. If it is not pinote at the intended empact point then it will not hit the empact point on the target. Bullets don't change dirrections after they leave the muzzle! If the bullet is going to hit to point of aim on the target that is the dirrection it is pointed when it leave the muzzle.


While the bullet is traveling down the left barrel, the rifle will be pushed up and to the left, throwing the bullet up and to the left when it exits the muzzle. To compensate for the movement of a double rifle while bullets are traveling down the barrels,

Same as with the right barrel, the left barrel will be in line with WHERE the sights had been when the trigger was pulled. In both cases, when the bullets leave the muzzles, the muzzles are in line with where the sights where when the respective triggers were pulled. If you could look at the sights at the exact moment when the bullet exits the muzzle, you would see the sights at this moment, they will be pointing exactly the amount off target, that that barrel was before the rifle was fired and the sights were lined up on the target, only in the opposite dirrection!


it must be built with the barrels converging towards the muzzle (by a mysterious amount). Because different powder charges, bullet weights, rifle weights, shooter body weights, ambient temperatures, etc., all effect the way a rifle moves under recoil, the only way to balance these factors is by trial and error. This process is called regulation.



The goal of regulation is to make the rifle shoot both barrels to a common point of impact at a range appropriate for the calibre.



Dan

Dan, the quotes are correct, it is simply that you are reading it wrong! This is a very common mistake most make where double rifles are concerened. If a double rifle is regulated properly, the bullet flight paths are parrlell after they leave the rifle, from muzzel to target! This is the problem they had with the shots at Deeley plaza! Bullets do not change dirrections once they leave the barrel, unless the hit something to change that dirrection.

There a lot of double rifle shooters who think their rifles are shooting regulateing loads, simply because the bullets are hitting in a composite group at a given distance. This is not the case, necessarily! It the load crosses past that distance, then the load is not regulateing, you have only developed a load that "CROSSES" at a given distance. If a load is regulated, you can fire one barrel at different distances, and they will hit the target in a group the has it's CENTER slightly to left, if the group was fired from the left barrel, and the opposite will be true of the other barrel being on It's side of the target, irregardless of distance.

This does not mean that both right, and left groups cannot mix, but the predominant right barrel points of impact will be right slightly of the point of aim, and vise versa for the left barrel.

This is not to say that a load that is only together at one range is not usefull, it is, but the load is not regulated properly, if it crosses after that point.

MacD37,

I can find references all day that talk about barrels regulated to cross at some distance (for example, see the SXS [side-by-side] reference at the bottom of http://www.drillinghotline.com/double.shtml :

quote:

SXS - The argument against optics on a Side by Side is the so-called windage problem. Some recommend to only sight-in on one barrel - but this now reduces your very expensive double to a single shot rifle.

Let's examine the physics of a center line sight-in.
The rifle centers of a .470 caliber are about ½ to ¾" apart.
The rifle is regulated for the barrels to cross at 60 Meters (66 yds.).

The physics states that they will again be ¾" apart at... Answer: 120 meters

)

HOWEVER, I'm not insisting that is the only correct answer -- just that it is a common one.

Here's a gunsmith ( http://www.champlinarms.com/serviceslist.cfm ) who will regulate your gun for you in just the way you want it:

quote:

Regulation of barrel convergence
This one is a challenge: New barrels or 100 years old barrels? Originally regulated beautifully or not? For cordite or flake powder? The bullet weight and shape? The individual barrel accuracy? There is a few guide lines about it, but nothing is chiseled in stone. Considering the amount of parameters it would take a powerful computer to lay out the proper squeeze for a set of barrels, a load and a shooter. Then that computer will not solder as good as my yellow lab would. On the first try I satisfy 90% of my customers, and if your rifle doesn't perform the way it should I will regulate again (under guaranty).

He will do this for around $600.

BUT -- if you ask him to rebarrel your double (which he will do), he normally regulates it to some particular distance

quote:

Rebarreling: Double Rifle
Bohler steel chopper lumps profiled as originals, regulated at 50 or 100 yards depending caliber.

He will do this for around $7,500. If you pay that much, I think he'd regulate it exactly the way you want it! And I don't think regulating it the way you like it is the wrong answer. Actually, I think it has its virtues, as I said before! Further, the DrilingHotline site I referenced above feels similarly -- which is why they are advocating over-under doubles as opposed to sxs's.

The bottom line is that Ray A. is excactly right in that the barrels don't shoot exactly where you aim them -- always true with your regulation, more and more true at short distances if they are regulated to converge to some common POI at a fixed distance.

Dan

DanEP, you are confusing regulation with working up a load the will shoot to the regulation already in the rifle. It is common for those working up a load for a double rifle, to call this "regulateing" the rifle. That is incorrect. Your example of regulating the barrels is true, they must be converging, and aimed low, and pointing to the opposite side of the point of aim. However when the bullets exits the barrels the barrels each barrel is aligned with where the sights were when the trigger is pulled. Though the barrels are converging, each barrel is streight as they are on any rifle, and the barrel being fired is aligned with the target when the bullet exits the barrel. If you fire both barrels at the same time, the rifle will not do the same as it does when the barrels are fired one at a time, because they will be fireing different dirrections from muzzel, because the muzzle flip is negate by equal amounts of recoil from each side. Unless the muzzles are very close to the target they will not hit near each other.

The example of JJ re-regulatein the barrels, has nothing to do with the flight path of the bullets other than to regulate them so that each will be pointing at the intended target, when the bullet exits the barrel during the recoil arch, for a particular load.

The reason mounting a scope on a double rifle changes the grouping on the target, is because the weight, and tork of that weight ABOVE the barrels upsets the recoil arch, and lets the bullet exit the barrel at a different place in that arch. If the double shot to regulation without the scope, the bullets exited the barrels at the time that barrel was aligned with the target. The weight if the scope has retarded this arch, so that the bullet leave the barrel at a different place.

DanEP, you can fine a lot of refences in magazines that are wrong, and some that are correct , but the reader misunderstands. This is the case here, the references are correct for the most part, except for the fact that a properly regulated, with a proper load, does not cross, from the time the bullets leave the barrels, till they fall to the ground for lack of enough speed to keep traveling, EVER!

The whole thing boils down to the fact that if the double is properly regulated, shooting a proper load for that regulation, one does not have to shoot differently at 1 yard, or fifty yards other than elevation, not windage! Besides a lion chargeing you at 5-15 yds, will be on you before you could think of where to hold, and if the first one doesn't stop or turn him you will not get the second shot off, no matter the load! A lion can corss 100 yds from a standing start in less that 4 seconds. at 5 yds that is less than one jump, and 15 yds is about one jump. Regulation be damned, you better hit him right with the first one!

(by the way, what does the EP stand for in your screen name?) It wouldn't have anything to do with El Paso, Texas would it?

I certainly did not say the barrels are bent or curved -- they are straight as in any rifle. I have referred only to the relation of their axis to each other, and to the initial velocity of the projectiles after they leave said barrel.

Er.. that's torque, not tork. Torque is measured as force x (vector cross product) moment arm about the axis of rotation. The easiest way to compute the effect of a scope is to compute the amount it adds to the moment of inertia tensor about the axis of rotation caused by the torque due to the bullet being driven down the barrel (its a 3-D rotational problem). However, you could compute the torque exterted by the scope on the rifle (same size but opposite in direciton to that of the rifle on the scope -- computed about the axis of rotation of the rifle). The axis of rotation is partly determined by the way the shooter has mounted the gun, but shoulders are sort of soft compared to the forces involved - especially during the time the bullet is in the rifle (the rifle hasn't moved very far during that first millisecond, though all of the momentum that will be transferred to the rifle will have been transferred by the time bullet and gas leave the muzzle). The fact that each barrel torques the rifle about different axes is the major contributing factor for why the barrels are generally a little "cross-eyed" -- even if you set things up for the initial muzzle velocities of the projectiles to be parallel. The scope will not only change the moment of inertia tensor, it will change the axis of rotation of the entire rifle.

Actually, I believe you and I agree on all points about the mechanics of regulation... Except that of one issue. You have taken the position that the muzzle velocities of the bullets should be parallel to each other. You are the only person or reference I have ever read who has taken that position. However, even though it is inconsistent with every other reference I'd read up to now, I believe it is your right to have your double rifle regulated any way that you want -- especially after you pay so much for one. There is actually some merit to your position, even if it does appear to be different from the norm. The actual point of difference in opinion is that you insist that this parallel regulation is the only "correct" way, which is the only point I do disagree with.

Now, there are issues concerning logical arguments in establishing premises. One of the ways a premise may be injected into a dispute is the application of an appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). For such to be valid, the following should be true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority ):

quote:

1. The authority must have competence in an area, not just glamour, prestige, rank or popularity.
2. The judgement must be within the authority's field of competence.
3. The authority must be interpreted correctly.
4. Direct evidence must be available, at least in principle.
5. The expert should be reasonably unbiased (not unduly influenced by other factors, such as money, political considerations, or religious beliefs). This is why appealing to one's own authority is always ilegitimate.
6. The judgement must be representative of expert opinions on the issue (as opposed to an unrepresentative sample).
7. A technique is needed to adjudicate disagreements among equally qualified authorities.

Now, you have challenged my references on items 1, 2, and 3. I have cited a number of concurring opinions (including someone who gets paid $7,500 to regulate the barrels regulated to hit at 50 yrds or 100 yrds depending on caliber (if the muzzle velocities were parallel, it would only impact sight adjustment, not barrel alignment). I suppose people are paying for him to do this to their guns... so they must agree with and like what he does. On the other hand, I've pointed out that I believe you're the only person I've read who holds your position, contrary to number 6. Further, I do not believe you have proved that your reading of my authorities is consistent with parallel initial velocities (as you claim); so I return a complaint against your reading according to #3.

Now, alternative approaches to resolving this dispute would be to take a bunch of regulated guns and see whether we could statistically prove they were consistent with your model or with some common point-of-impact. As a physicist, that one appeals most to me. But it doesn't resolve the issue of intended art -- just how the rifles actually perform, and that will be load-dependent. That's part of the rub -- its all simply art, not science in the sense of measuring the speed of light, or the isothermal compressibility of water at 1.6 deg C, 1 atm. This leaves unbiased professional opinions -- of which we are disqualified by #5. Item #7 itself is problematic. Even if we came up with rules, I doubt anybody but us is that bloody interested in which one is right: they're quite happy to enjoy shooting their own guns, while we're shooting off our mouths (er -- keypads).

Bottom line -- I doubt we will resolve this issue, and I suspect we will remain in disagreement.

Dan

[EP refers to the rest of my name.]

Ray:
At 15 yards, or closer, and a charging lion, I really doubt I could even get the gun moving up, before the cat hit me. Most likely, I would be dead. That's if I'm reacting to him, or a buff, that I don't know is there, and they get going first.

Otherwise, start the gun up, hope to get the front site in the center of orange furball, and pull trigger, hoping recoil knocks me out of the way...

I can't pray that fast...



G

PS

This would be a REAL good time to bring out the female lion you didn't see at 3 feet story, and the little dance you did with her.

quote:

Originally posted by DanEP:
Er.. that's torque, not tork.

Thanks Teach!

I believe it is your right to have your double rifle regulated any way that you want -- especially after you pay so much for one.

The concept of the flight paths being paralell after they leave the barrel has nothing to do with the what distance the rifle was sighted in for. When the BARRELS were physically regulated, they were simply tweeked to make each barrel exit the bullet at the same point in the recoil arch, so they would hit the target side by side,at the same elevation. The part of the regulateing, for distance is done in fileing of the sights, once a paralell flight path is attained.


Now, you have challenged my references on items 1, 2, and 3. Bottom line -- I doubt we will resolve this issue, and I suspect we will remain in disagreement.

You are most likely right about us ever agreeing on the subject of bullet flight paths of bullets from a properly loaded double rifle. And it has notheing to do with what I want as far as regulation goes, if loaded properly, they all will fly paralell, and will not cross. If the "SIGHTS" are filed for 66yds, that is where the composite group will hit,in relation to the sight picture, nothing more. The flip up sights for longer range are still used for both barrels, and if the load is proper they will be as accurate as any iron sighted rifle, at that distance. They will not cross after they leave the barrels, or before if they are properly loaded. Point, !If it does then the load is wrong. When the physical regulateing takes place the rifle only has rudamentry sights and the regulation is only to get the barrels to exit their bullets at the same point in the recoil arch. Once that is done, then the sights are filed for actual point of aim, and elevation. this is what gives you the range the sights are set for!

The only problem I had with you references is the statement that all double rifles cross after the distance they were regulated for! This is absolutely not true, and the person that made that statement is wrong! I agree with all the other references you posted, but, I believe you are not understanding your own references!

I have, and have owned many double rifles, mostly Britts, but some of all makes, and a couple I built,myself, and regulated, and a couple I re-regulated, after re-chambering to better cartridges. I understand regulation very well. You say I'm the only person you have heard say that double rifles properly loaded, do not cross at any distance! Yet there are several right on this string who will tell you the same thing. I know for a fact these folks are far better schooled where double rifles are concerned, I, and it is obvious there some with less knowledge on them than I! Ray is absolutely correct about the hold on a lion's head, the right barrel will be to the right of the point of aim, at 5-15 yds, and from there on till it runs out of steam, but not by more than an inch to the center of the right barrel grouping, and the left barrel will be the same only on opposite side. However, at that distance, you will be lucky to hit the lion, nevermind placeing a bullet 1 inch either way!

I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on this one!


Dan

[EP refers to the rest of my name.]

The reason I asked about the "EP" is that I lived in El Paso for about 40 yrs! I thought we might have known some of the same gunsmiths, and dealers!

The double rifle is fast becoming a thing of the past with todays hunters, and i use the term loosely. Today we hunt by cozy car until we find a shooter, then we stop and set up the sticks and shoot it from obscene range, shake hands let the boys do their job and before you know it your smashed from your 6th sundowner. Well this may be abit short but i think you get the picture. If you realy want to hunt Africa ,you use a tent move ervery other day, get up two hours before sunrise,walk several miles,find a herd with good heads,sleep on the ground after the herd has seteled in for the night, stalk them for days,weeks if neccecary and when you make your kill you can call your self a hunter. If you did it with a double or three,call your self Bwana you earned the name tag. During that time you will find out what kind of man you realy are,and probably form bonds that will last you life time. Or have a realy good enemy. This is they way it was done not so long ago, and i think its the way it should continue to be done. Cheap thrills dont last, a grind your but in the dirt hunt followed by unbelievable joy lasts a life time. Charlie

McWilliams, I agree with everything you say in your post. I wish it could be done that way, and some safaris come close to that, but time costs money, and most of us can barely afford to hunt the way it's done today.

I try to get as close as my limited budget will allow. I don't mind the static camp, or the hunting car,I'm 68 years old! but I like to hunt on foot. I like to drive the tracks till we cut spoor, then set out on the tracks till we see what the trophies look like. I don't drink, or smoke, so the sundowners are for someone else, the fire side is for discussion, and planning the next move on the hunt. I hunt with double rifles, and have been known to crawl on my belly for a mile to get within shooting distance of a real set of horns. I carry my own rifles, and I do not like my PH to shoot till I'm dry, and the animal is about to get away, or is going to kill someone! To me this is hunting at the best I can afford today! Like you I would dearly love to set out from town on foot with a string of porters, on a six month mixed bag safari, but I don't see that happening in today's Africa, at least for me! Alas, those days are in the story books, I fear.

MacD37 --

Some of your comments suggest you have misunderstood me. Sight adjustments affect both barrels' point of impact the same. The point of dispute is whether the barrels themselves are adjusted so as to put both bullets through the same hole at a fixed distance (ie -- guns regulated at 75 yards will ideally put both bullets through the point of aim at 75 yards) or whether they will put the bullets on either side of the vertical line of aim at all distances (not counting wind).

A few more examples of definitions:

quote:

When people speak of how double rifles group they always mention "regulating." The barrels of double rifles are not parallel, the bores are angled from rear to front. If the barrels were aligned side-by-side, the right barrel would shoot to the right and the left barrel to the left. To align the barrels of a double rifle they are fastened at the breech while the muzzles are held in a device that allows the barrels to be moved by wedges or by re-soldering until the bullets from both barrels shoot properly. Only then are the muzzles permanently affixed. The regulating of a double is simple in theory but difficult in practice. Probably most double rifles were regulated to shoot in the tropics, using Cordite, where temperatures could run as high as 120 degrees.

Id.

The Rifle Guide notes: "All of these [older, larger, black-powder, British] double rifles are regulated for a given bullet weight and a specific powder charge. Regulating, in this instance, means that both barrels will shoot very close together." R.A. Steindler, Rifle Guide 96 (1978).

The following illustrate some additional uses of the term "regulated": "Guns like the now obsolete Paradox, 'Jungle Gun,' 'Explora,' 'Fauneta' and other similar 'ball and shot guns' were regulated for heavy bullets." Jack Lott, Double Gun Actions, in Basic Gun Repair 56, 57 (Hans Tanner ed., 1973).

Luckily, "most old pairs of barrels will have been regulated during manufacture so no additional adjustments will be necessary." William R. Brockway, Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle-Loading Shotgun 180 (1985).

The Firearms Dictionary does not define the term "regulated," but does define "regulating barrels" as "a tedious job needed to make both barrels of a side-by-side or O/U [over and under] gun shoot to the same point." R.A. Steindler, The Firearms Dictionary 193 (1970).

However, this has gotten well off course (Saeed has alread asked us to please stick to topic), and well beyond the scope of African hunting. I think Charlie Mac makes the point quite clear: the point of handling the guns we have, to make sure we know how they shoot, and can shoot them to hit where we want them to without having to think about it, is to hunt with them. However they're set up, we should be able to trust our lives to our knowledge of them, and to hunt (track, sleep on the ground, spend the time in the dust) with them.

Dan