quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
DAMMIT GUYS- FOR THE THIRD TIME-

Actually, it is good entertainment.

It very nice to see some deranged bunny hugging nitwit come to a hunting site and try to stop us from hunting.

Now, can anyone please explain to me anything more stupid than this?

jolouburn, you have claimed that you are not an anti hunter, but how you debate here in this thread and in the thread about how much better Kenya is for the wild life and the great economics of it, are just clear proofs of what you really are.
You are just a pure anti hunter and I am not going to waste my time reading your threads anymore as you clearly don't have an open mind and has made it your agenda to stop what we enjoy doing.
I have stopped taking your posting seriously.

I have to admit I only scanned through the comments on this thread and highlighted some of those that caught my eye so if others have already responded to these I apologise for duplicating...

quote:

You (generic) claim to want to clean up your house but unfortunately sitting on your laptops and pcs just doesnt cut the mustard. You dont care about cleaning up house, your only concern is keeping your right to hunt.

Jolouburn – with respect – is “sitting on YOUR laptop/ PC using so-called “research” that you appear to have done via anti-hunting websites in order to create controversy not the exact same thing? What have you done to clean up house amongst the non-hunting fraternity as far as obvious mistakes made by them with regards to their “research and statistics” are concerned?

quote:

Believe you me i know this only to well. Man is arrogant, selfish and just loves to stamp his authority. What you and others are forgetting is that everything on this planet has its value without man having to put their stamp on it. Every creature and plant does their bit for the system, the good old circle of life. Without the predator the prey would overrun and without the prey the predator would not survive.

You are absolutely 100% correct. The fact is that humans are encroaching the habitat of wild animals... at an alarming rate I might add... And for this very reason; we as humans need to be responsible in how we deal with this issue. One way of dealing with this would be to have every single human on this planet of ours sterilized / castrated and stem the human population explosion thereby eliminating the need to build new houses, towns, cities etc... In fact; why don’t all us terrible humans just commit mass suicide – then the animals can fend for themselves and we needn’t do anything or concern ourselves about it... Lions would be free to roam the streets of Johannesburg and feed off the feral dogs / cats that remain, heck they can even find themselves a nice apartment with a stunning view over Sandton!
Another would be to sustainably utilize our wildlife resourses, recognise that hunting plays a crucial role in conservation and manage wildlife effectively.

quote:

I ask again........

1. Can you honestly say that canned lions are not passed off as wild lions in SA?

2. Can you honestly say that if this is occuring that it does not mess with the facts and figures out there for the SA lion and ultimately could put them in danger?

1. I’m darn sure that canned lions are passed off as wild lions in SA. This is wrong and a stop should be put to it because it affects the reputation of SA hunting companies – in the same way that a stop should be put to anti-hunters passing off bogus statistics in an attempt to further their cause and convince ignorant individuals that they are right...

2. I very much doubt that this endangers ANY wild lions in South Africa. Qutas are not based on the number of canned hunts that were passed off to clients as wild lion hunts. Quotas are based on scientific research as opposed to anti hunters who do their “research” on anti-hunting blogs... Irrespective of how a lion hunt is passed off to a client – a lion hunting permit needs to be applied for from the conservation authorities by providing full details of the hunt. The conservation authorities in turn base their decisions on real facts such as whether this is a canned lion or (in the case of a wild lion) “How many wild lions do we have in South Africa and where are they?”. No person in his right mind would want to apply for a permit to hunt a wild lion if he plans on selling a canned lion - even if he intends passing it off to the client as a wild hunt. Firstly; “wild lion permits” are as scarce as hens teeth in South Africa and secondly; it is just so much easier to have an application for a canned lion approved so why bother and complicate things more?

Bwanamaich,

quote:

The reason why Kenya HAS NOT re=opened hunting is because the animal welfare groups keep the political decision makers happy with their $$ donations.

One comment here :-

Pot, Kettle, Black

John,

quote:

IF the full quota the following year was used on truly wild lions then you might have a point (and the assumption that canned is substituted for wild on any regular basis).

It wouldn't have to be the full quota, just more than the lion in SA can sustain.

quote:

A few years ago SCI moved all SA lions to there own category, similar to ranch hunted deer back here in the states. While there are some truly wild lions hunted in SA. Most people would argue that most are either canned or habituated to people one way or another.

So why do more people not question the authenticity when offered a 'truly' wild lion?
As you say they are few truly wild lion in SA and more than half of those are within the Kruger Park, over 2000.

quote:

I have no issues informing people before they hunt about the realities of the situation. However I see no benefit to telling someone after they come back and are boasting about a great lion hunt that it was a set up. Most only do this once in a lifetime so what good would come from that?

I can see where you are coming from here however by telling them more people would become aware and hopefully contact relevant authorities, ie governments etc and campaign to stop this practice.


Bwanamich,

quote:

Man in rural Africa struggles to survive as well in case you haven't noticed. By your reasoning, animals have more rights than humans. As i said, Animal welfarist.

I agree man struggles too.
However if we don't stop taking land at the rate we are many species will struggle.
I am concerned about the welfare of animals yes. But you (generic) claim to be too, How can that be? Oh yeah it fits your personal agendas to care. If people think you care you get to keep hunting!

Chris Troskie,

quote:

Jolouburn – with respect – is “sitting on YOUR laptop/ PC using so-called “research” that you appear to have done via anti-hunting websites in order to create controversy not the exact same thing? What have you done to clean up house amongst the non-hunting fraternity as far as obvious mistakes made by them with regards to their “research and statistics” are concerned?

As far as i am aware the antis are breaking no laws, hunters and hunting outfits are however intentional or unintentional.
Regarding research and statistics both sides are convincing and can usually be backed up.
I personally don't just sit on forums keyboard warrioring, i campaign and fund raise and do what i can from the UK.

quote:

One way of dealing with this would be to have every single human on this planet of ours sterilized / castrated and stem the human population explosion thereby eliminating the need to build new houses, towns, cities etc... In fact; why don’t all us terrible humans just commit mass suicide – then the animals can fend for themselves and we needn’t do anything or concern ourselves about it... Lions would be free to roam the streets of Johannesburg and feed off the feral dogs / cats that remain, heck they can even find themselves a nice apartment with a stunning view over Sandton!
Another would be to sustainably utilize our wildlife resourses, recognise that hunting plays a crucial role in conservation and manage wildlife effectively.

Personally i'd suggest something like the one child policy that places like China carry.

quote:

in the same way that a stop should be put to anti-hunters passing off bogus statistics in an attempt to further their cause and convince ignorant individuals that they are right...

This works both ways. neither sides research is usually unbiased. What we really need is some independent research and soon.

Quotas are unfortunately based on scientific research which is not unbiased. Passing lion off as other than what it is could damage the lion population in SA and needs dealing with.

One of the huge problems is that when you look at places like Kenya and it's declining wildlife the non-hunting policy appears not to work. But look at countries which allow hunting and their declining wildlife and hunting doesn't it appears work either. And these are the arguments thrown at each other.
We can all sit here and argue about what should be done but at present nothing is stopping the decline of the lion and that is what we should be concerned with!

quote:

As far as i am aware the antis are breaking no laws, hunters and hunting outfits are however intentional or unintentional.
Regarding research and statistics both sides are convincing and can usually be backed up.
I personally don't just sit on forums keyboard warrioring, i campaign and fund raise and do what i can from the UK.

So it is only the hunters who break laws by selling canned hunts as wild hunts... Nothing is wrong with antis spreading false propoganda - using one-sided and false research / stats to back them up? As I have said from the outset - I don't agree with anyone selling canned hunts as wild hunts but how is this worse than selling false/poorly researched/biased statistics to the uninformed?

And most folks around here are campaigning & raising funds as well... campaigning for their rights as hunters and raising funds for their next hunting trip ... And whilst there might be keyboard warriors in this crowd (who incidentally comes from all over the world) - I guess it's no different to what it is in yours... in the UK...

quote:

Personally i'd suggest something like the one child policy that places like China carry.

Come to think of it - the one child policy in China hasn't done much to benefit Lions, Tigers and Rhinos so far... or does your "research" prove otherwise? And how are only hunters implicated in this?

quote:

This works both ways. neither sides research is usually unbiased. What we really need is some independent research and soon.

Quotas are unfortunately based on scientific research which is not unbiased. Passing lion off as other than what it is could damage the lion population in SA and needs dealing with.

One of the huge problems is that when you look at places like Kenya and it's declining wildlife the non-hunting policy appears not to work. But look at countries which allow hunting and their declining wildlife and hunting doesn't it appears work either. And these are the arguments thrown at each other.
We can all sit here and argue about what should be done but at present nothing is stopping the decline of the lion and that is what we should be concerned with!

As I have stated before; I don't understand how passing off Lion other than what it is could damage Lion - specifically in SA - other than damaging the reputation of SA as a lion hunting destination. And I'd love for you to enlighten me - given what I stated in my previous post. More importantly; seeing that this thread started out about lion hunting in SA as opposed to Kenya and other countries where conservation practices do not seem to work can you please provide us with some scientific research proving that wildlife populations (including lion) have declined in this country since Trophy Hunting was introduced on a larger scale?

I do believe that Jo is under the impression that lion quotas are based, at least partly, on the CITES export numbers.

This cannot be the case, and I believe Chris verified this in an earlier post. Think about it... you don't need a CITES certificate if you don't intend to leave the country with the hide. And there are plenty of SA hunters. So quotas could not be correctly ascertained by exports alone.

Gentlemen,

These people do not base any of their decisions on any study or any logical reason.

Their single minded effort is to stop hunting. Period.

jolouburn,

In a previous posting I asked you to reply to 4 questions. You did properly reply to the first three. Thank you for that.

I do however have a big problem with the reply that you have furnished to my 4th question. I asked:

quote:

4. Tell me, and please motivate how the actions of hunters that leads to these figures - and specifically the trends, will have any negative effect on the lion habitat and thus on the actual free ranging wild lion population in both South Africa

To this you replied:

quote:

4. That question cannot be answered as hunting concession holders do not allow independent assessments of lion population numbers and demography within areas where lions are trophy hunted. They are perhaps too fearful of losing quota. You might be able to see how in Zimbabwe many have argued that quotas are excessive. In Zimbabwe, Tanzania, and Cameroon at least hunting concessions that border directly on protected areas have been shown to have impacts on protected populations. Andrew Loveridge (Biological Conservation 134 (2007): 548-558) reports that sport hunters in the safari areas surrounding the park killed 72% of tagged adult males from the study area. Over 30% of all males shot were sub-adult (<4 years). Hunting off-take of male lions doubled during 2001–2003 compared to levels in the three preceding years, which caused a decline in numbers of adult males in the population (from an adult sex ratio of 1:3 to 1:6 in favour of adult females). Home ranges made vacant by removal of adult males were filled by immigration of males from the park core. You can also read “Effects of trophy hunting on lion and leopard populations in Tanzania”. 2010. Packer et al., Conservation Biology. And “Cat dilemma: too protected to escape trophy hunting?” Palazy et al, PLoS One, 2011.

I was very disappointed on reading your reply. Now, after reading Chris Troskie’s posting and him posing a very similar question I tried to analyse why I was so disappointed with your reply. This is the particular part of Chris’ posting that I’m referring to:

quote:

As I have stated before; I don't understand how passing off Lion other than what it is could damage Lion - specifically in SA - other than damaging the reputation of SA as a lion hunting destination. And I'd love for you to enlighten me - given what I stated in my previous post. More importantly; seeing that this thread started out about lion hunting in SA as opposed to Kenya and other countries where conservation practices do not seem to work can you please provide us with some scientific research proving that wildlife populations (including lion) have declined in this country since Trophy Hunting was introduced on a larger scale?

In your reply to my 4th question you started off by saying “That question cannot be answered as…….” I also realized that my including the phrase “and the rest of Africa in general” made it difficult for you to properly reply. Yet, if you look at the big picture of your original thread, this is essentially what your posting was all about!

quote:

They provide some very interesting information on “wild” lion hunting in South Africa.

With your permission I’m going to re-phrase my original 4th question a bit and ask you to also enlighten me on how the ticking of an inappropriate box “Wild” instead of the truth “Ranched” on a CITES Export application form can harm the wild lion habitat and wild lion populations in South Africa?

My edited question is now:

4. Tell me, and please motivate how the actions of hunters and/or taxidermists / Dip-‘n-Ship / and other Trophy Export agencies that falsely tick the “Wild Lion” box on a CITES Export Application form when in fact a captured and released lion was hunted, that leads to the figures provided in your reply to my 3rd question, will have any negative effect on the lion habitat and thus on the actual free ranging wild lion population in only South Africa?

Would it be inappropriate for me to remind you that in South Africa the hunting of lion is controlled by the TOPS regulations? This means that a TOPS Permit has to be applied for and issued before hunting of the lion. I'd really not want you to confuse the issue by bringing in illegal lion poaching, so please just stick to the actions of legal lion "hunters" who hunt with the properly issued TOPS permits, and not refer to illegal poachers. I will leave it to you to do the research yourself on what the procedure(s) is that each one of the 9 Provincial Nature Conservation Departments will go through before issuing a TOPS permit. I know this process has been spelled out a bit in postings here, but you do not seem to take the word of hunters seriously, so do the research yourself! You will certainly have to indicate at what step in the permit application consideration process does the “Permit Committee” of the relevant Nature Conservation Department get mislead by the “Biased CITES Data”? May I ask if you would please give some careful consideration to documenting your reasoning in a simple step-by-step procedure that even I, being just a dumb-ass hunter, [and all other more intelligent hunters] can follow, comprehend and fully understand?

Please see this question as an opportunity to, maybe as an addendum (?), also educate hunters on what they should actually “do” about an unacceptable bad practice by some who provide false information to CITES, that has been freely admitted to actually happening to some extent in South Africa. This additional question was covered in one of the rhetorical questions that I posed in my previous posting, but which you chose to then ignore. I now specifically ask you to show us how the practice is harmful to true wild lion populations in South Africa and what we as hunters, Hunting Outfitters and PH’s should do about it?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

These people do not base any of their decisions on any study or any logical reason.

Their single minded effort is to stop hunting. Period.

Saeed, you are absolutely right. And it appears that the antis are getting bored preaching to the converted in their own disillusioned crowd so now they come here to stir things up a little and get some excitement for the day.

We shouldn't be too hard on Jolo... If I were her I would get quite bored in that crowd as well...

And we should actually thank her for bringing to our attention the fact that canned lion hunting occurs in South Africa and is sometimes being passed off as wild lion hunts as I'm sure none of us hunters were aware of this prior to her posting and I'm sure she has saved many clients on this forum from spending their money on something different to what they had intended doing...

Had she extended her research to include previous postings on this forum as opposed to focusing only on research by the antis though - she might have found several threads where the "canned" issue were discussed in the past and that us hunters were actually not quite as uninformed as what she thought.

BTT

jolouburn,

I asked a, what I think is, a pretty reasonable and understandable question. Chris Troski also asked if you would enlighten him about the same issue.

My question also opened the door for you to use an opportunity to enlighten us [dumb] hunters about the basic reason for your posting in the first instance.

Seeing that up to your last posting you were commendably quick in your responses, and as a few days have now passed since Chris and I aske our questions, I'm just wondering if we are going to get any reply from you?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
BTT


Seeing that up to your last posting you were commendably quick in your responses, and as a few days have now passed since Chris and I aske our questions, I'm just wondering if we are going to get any reply from you?

Andrew McLaren

I guess she's busy doing some more "research" Andrew

And I can't wait for her to come back with new "research" proving that lion and other game populations have declined in South Africa over the past 30 odd years OR how "ticking off the wrong box" can adversely affect quotas...

Right now - the biggest danger to "wild" lions (and let's be realistic - the only "wild" lions in this country are found in Kruger and Greater Kruger) is a disease called TB - something which an increasing % of Kruger's lions suffer from (wonder if us hunters are going to get the blame for that too). And a secondary danger is the elephant population that is destroying not only their own habitat but also the habitat of the animals that wild lion feed on... This of course is something that the antis are simply not interested in knowing anything about... or the fact that Hunting saved the Black Rhino in SA...

maybe there is a power outage under the bridge where she lives and she can't post---- one can always hope

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
maybe there is a power outage under the bridge where she lives and she can't post---- one can always hope

Or one can realize that it is very difficult to tell exactly at which step in the consideration process to issue or not issue a TOPS Permit to hunt an honestly wild lion, say next to the Kruger National Park, the Nature Conservation Officials are influenced by the false data for "wild" lion on the CITES database.

Methinks this is one anti-hunter who is unlikely to be back here?

If jolouburn gets back, I'd really like to read the reply to my question.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
maybe there is a power outage under the bridge where she lives and she can't post---- one can always hope

Or one can realize that it is very difficult to tell exactly at which step in the consideration process to issue or not issue a TOPS Permit to hunt an honestly wild lion, say next to the Kruger National Park, the Nature Conservation Officials are influenced by the false data for "wild" lion on the CITES database.

Methinks this is one anti-hunter who is unlikely to be back here?

If jolouburn gets back, I'd really like to read the reply to my question.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew mate. Maybe you will get lucky and she turns out to be some hot safari groupie?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
...........

Andrew mate. Maybe you will get lucky and she turns out to be some hot safari groupie?

You mean someone like Samantha Virk? I would love to teach her in person all about hunting!

But then she will probably want to quickly teach me about hunting rich old men vs. poor old men.

I must have somehow missed reading it, but according to many jolouburn is a "she"? Where?

In good hunting and patient waiting for jolouburn to return.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew,

Jolo mentioned somewhere that she had visited the Joburg lion park (where she had gathered her incredible insight to lion conservation) with her husband. Mind you these days having a husband doesn't necessarily mean you are a girl.

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
Andrew,

Jolo mentioned somewhere that she had visited the Joburg lion park (where she had gathered her incredible insight to lion conservation) with her husband. Mind you these days having a husband doesn't necessarily mean you are a girl.

Yeah...ask Elton Jane