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I came across this post on the LionAid website today. They provide some very interesting information on “wild” lion hunting in South Africa. In summary, LionAid states that CITES records indicate that 2651 “wild” lion trophies were exported from South Africa 2000-2009, and 3024 “captive/ranched” lions over the same period. South Africa has virtually no “wild” lions to hunt, but they are being sold as such. The South African Threatened or Protected Species Regulations (TOPS – Ministry of Environmental Affairs and Tourism –see http://www.africahunting.com/h...ops-regulations.html) “deem” a lion to be “wild” if it is captive bred and then released for a few days in an area with some prey species. This is quite convenient, as a lion bred and held in captivity for its entire life can now be sold as a “wild” lion. There is little price difference between a canned lion and a “wild” lion hunt (after all, they are one and the same), but I believe clients are being fooled into thinking they are hunting a truly “wild” lion. This would mean, for example, that all South African “wild” trophies should be withdrawn from SCI record books. LionAid titles the article “caveat emptor” – buyer beware. I do think this is a matter of concern to trophy hunters as the South African operators are at least guilty of false advertising. Many ethical trophy hunters abhor the “canned lion” hunts, but they are essentially (and perhaps unknowingly) participating in the same process modified by a bit of South African public relations “spin”. LionAid calls for CITES to investigate, but I think it is high time for hunting clients engaged with South African operators to do their own investigations about the “wild” lions they have shot or intend to shoot. I have posted this as I believe many of you who have hunted/will hunt/will never hunt South African “wild” lions will want to have a closer look at this. The LionAid article can be found here: http://www.lionaid.org/blog/2011/11/caveat-emptor.htm DISCLAIMER : I am not presenting this as fact just as a piece of research i have come across i thought was interesting and would interest you also. | ||
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Well, I just looked at that website, and my impression is that it is totally anti-hunting. And from past experience of those sort of sites, they tend to be rather loose with the facts. They turn them any way possible to give hunting a bad name. | |||
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Jo - If one takes the info above, just at face value, I think most hunters know and recognize the difference. Yes, likely a few hunters are still "dupped" into thinking their lion hunt is "wild", but 95% of em, definitely know the difference. Bad/unethical advertising/selling on behalf of some SA operators, regardless of the reality. Keep in mind, there are a FEW truly wild lion hunts still conducted (and have been over the years too) in SA, so you have to be careful is saying ALL of them should be removed from the SCI records, etc. | |||
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jolouburn, Thanks for posting the link. I, for one, am interested and will soon read the page. One thing that I really wish for is some accurate numbers of really honestly truly wild lion hunted in South Africa each year? IMHO this can at most be a dozen or so! The rest of the so-called wild]/I] lion are sold as something that they are not! You are quite correct is saying that a large number of clients are fooled into believing that they are [I]hunting a "wild” lion when in fact they are simply "shooting" a captive bred and released lion. This could be, but is not necessarily always, perfectly legal. It is however simply not my cup of tea!  Please note that according to my best knowledge lion is currently NOT on the list of "large carnivores" as defined in the TOPS regulations. Sure, I agree that it sounds ridiculous, but it is true nevertheless! [At the very least it was true some time ago – I do not have any interest in lion hunting and do not even try to keep up to date with all the stupid developments. Maybe someone in the canned lion shooting business can chime in?] In short Minister "Kortbroek" van Schalkwyk - one of the old Apartheid Regime young stars who is now an ANC comrade - made such a FU of his noble intentions to put a “stop to canned lion hunting” by the hastily promulgated and ill conceived TOPS regulations that he was forced to remove lion from the list of "large predators"!  My plea to all who are aware of such false advertising - please expose the guilty parties, here and just about anywhere and everywhere that you can think of. It is the right thing to do!  In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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Jo, I don't know how you can pass off Lionaid propaganda as "research" with a straight face. How is it that your "research" only includes what Lionaid has to say? Why on earth would Brother Pieter Kat care if hunters were being ripped off anyhow? Does he really care about the SCI trophy book? As I mentioned in another thread you need to ask him about his lion breeding projects in Zimbabwe where captive lions are bred for "walking with lion safaris" and what happens to those lions after they get to big to walk with any more. I don't buy it that you have absolutely no contact with Pieter. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Saeed, LionAid is anti lion hunting noone would deny that. I however think perhaps what they have said is worthy of looking at further for those it concerns or interests. Aaron,
Apologies i probably could have worded that better. Zig,
Feel free to check out the research or not as you desire.
Not true. Just one example is my last thread here. That research however wrong or right came from a totally different source.
I cannot speak for Pieter Kat. Ask him for yourself.
You appear to know so why don't you just tell me. But please not here, this is a thread about a totally seperate issue and derailing it with petty tittle tattle is not my thing. As for whether i have contact with Pieter Kat, you are entitled to your opinion and i'm not going over this again. | |||
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I look at it this way. Anyone who is anti-hunting is anti-conservationist. And no matter what they claim, as long as they turn a blind eye to the conservation value of hunting, then I will not listen to them. | |||
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Saeed, Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you. | |||
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Hey Zig, how about posting the question at Pieter directly on his lion aid page? That should stir things up nice and proper  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Andrew, Here are extracts taken from the current TOPS regulations list. The lion is indeed listed as a large predator.
And here is the part that details the regulation spoken about.
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Lion Aid distorted that research to suit their own warped agenda and deceive the uninformed, and you know it. Why do you try to defend their action in that instance when you profess to steer a middle course? Why did you not take them to task about it when the truth came to light, since you are so involved with Lion Aid? Where is that link on the Lion Aid page now? Why have they not made a public retraction about it all, since it was discovered for them that it is NOT the official IUCN stance? These people are liars and they need to be properly exposed for what they are because they are doing untold damage to conservation efforts. To the efforts of those who are actually trying to do something. Lion Aid is anti all hunting, please don’t try and mislead us into believing it is only lion hunting they have an issue with. If they had their way, thousands of Africans would be rendered destitute and all our wild areas would be destroyed in short time. Against my will, I have spent time there, trying to read the drivel they peddle, and I have come to the conclusion that they are indeed the enemy and must be stopped. Zig, please tell us more about this Kat fellow. Don't worry Jolo, all relevant to the thread - you brought it up. You cannot expect to come here with 'findings' from an anti hunting, supposed lion conservation group and imagine we won't look into the chap who runs it. He is, after all, asking for money from the public to 'save' OUR lions. We want to find out exactly who he is, what he does, what he does with the money given him by all the suckers in that group. What is Kat actually doing for the lions, what is his involvement with walking with lions? I find it mind boggling that he is allowed to get away with blatantly bending the truth on almost every post he makes, spewing unsubstantiated anti hunting propoganda, repeating his version of how things should be time and again, nothing original, just whining about what hunters don't do. The question is, what does he do? Are all the other members there really that gullible? I will ask him about his involvement in walking with lions, on the Lion Aid page, please send me what you know Zig. And I will also post the response Zig received from the IUCN chap on the Lion Aid page and pose a few questions about that, no problem. After monitoring his posts for a while, I know that his responses will be irrelevant, but I think we should try and open up as many of the closed minds in that group as possible. Good day, David | |||
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Sorry David but which part of that information did NOT come from lionaid did you not understand? Lionaid have no post on their page about it because they NEVER did have. I will NOT take lionaid to task for info i got ELSEWHERE and was NOTHING to do with them. Hope that clears that bit up for you.
Why should lion aid make aretraction about something they had nothing to do with and did not post? If you feel that way David take it up with lionaid. Feel free to rant about Pieter Kat if you wish to and ignore the research which came from cites and top. Are you saying they too are in league with lion aid? Ignore Pieter Kats / lion aids conclusions by all means if you wish but i can't see how you can ignore cites figures and tops regulations. | |||
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Okay, sorry, my mistake, I misread the previous post...  However, then it was you who tried to palm it off as an official stance and I will change the wording of my post and substitute Lion Aid for you.... I am not ranting about Pieter Kat, I am saying he is a great danger to conservation and must be stopped. Where do you see ranting? I have already had it out with him and his band of bored housewives - they had nothing to say about the facts I provided for them about the Save conservancy. Meaning no acknowledgment of what an undeniable success that hunting area is - they moved on quickly, I think to the 'last Omay lion' thread.... A few women screamed at me, real ranting I think it was. Predictable. I have not mentioned anything about CITES, have I? I apologize for the blunder, I do make them. I apologize for misleading everyone about Lion Aid and the IUCN post, it was a genuine mistake. I will still take Kat to task if he has any involvement whatsoever with walking with lions. After I have apologized for calling him out for your attempt to mislead people into believing that study was an official stance. David | |||
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A blog posted by safaribwana a hunting outfitter and a quote from their hunting south africa, what to hunt page. http://huntlion.blogspot.com/
http://www.safaribwana.com/COU.../sapages/saintro.htm
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David, Please show me where i said it was 'an official stance'. I presented research and asked for comments on it. I conceded not far into that thread that the research was unlikely to be true. I attempted to mislead noone. By rejecting the research i presented from lion aid you rejected cites and tops. Check cites for yourself and you will see lion aid used their figures. Check tops for yourself and you will see lion aid used their regulation. Reject lion aids conclusions by all means but not the data straight from citesd and tops surely? I honestly dont know whether Pieter Kat has anything to do with 'walking with lions' or even what walking with lions is to be fair. | |||
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You defended that 'research' long after it had been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be codswollop. Please don't try and put words in my mouth re rejecting CITES research, which I haven't looked at or mentioned. I just know instinctively not to swallow anything which comes from Lion Aid, hence my overly enthusiastic and misdirected response to your 'via Lion Aid' post. You can surely see why I have this attitude, given that you like to play Lion Aid rep on AR and your last thread was, at the end of the day, so pointless. Simply proved what we already knew and what anti hunters will never accept, no matter how much proof is provided. That is, how hunting is certainly not economically useless. I will read what CITES has to say, but not via Lion Aid. In fact, I am going to remove myself from that group now - I only went there to see for myself and now that I have seen I cannot justify staying because there is nothing positive there, nothing that could possibly be of benefit to wildlife. I am presently engaged with moderate non hunting types and find that to be more constructive than being screamed at on Lion Aid by people who have probably never seen a lion out of the zoo. My moderate non hunting friends would not be proud of my blunder here today... Anyway, I apologize again for reading everything wrong and hijacking, I admit I have been seething about that IUCN 'study' for weeks... I so hope the bit about Kat being involved in lion walking is true, but guess I'd better make sure first  | |||
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David, With respect I have never played lion aid rep. In fact this thread is the 1st time I have quoted lion aid research as far as I can recall. You seem to know more about me and what I think than I do. Even if I had defended and I certainly didn't the research I presented in the other thread to the bitter end that is my right to do so. I have never been so rude here as to berate others opinions. We may not all agree but I respect others right to an opinion. I understand you are upset about the IUCN article taken out of context by wildlife extra but this is the second time you have blasted at me personally about it. The actual point of this thread was to discuss canned lions being passed off as wild lions which not only do the cites figures point to this but also the tops rules allow for this. I have even posted a safari outfitter who claims this is true. So really other than publishing the figures and rules lion aid has no part to play. I hope you do look at the tops regulations, I'll email you the document if you wish. I hoe you do look at the cites figures for south african lion exports compared to how many are available to hunt in the wild. And I hope you read the safaribwana comments on lion hunting in SA. And why? Because unless you believe cites are corrupt or tops then you will see for yourself that something is wrong and needs addressing. | |||
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Okay Jolo, as I said, I apologize for the blunder. I also apologize for going on at you, but I don't apologize for gunning Lion Aid, even if they weren't at fault in this instance. That group is a perfect example of the almighty challenges facing conservation efforts. I am going to put my mistakes tonight down to exhaustion if you don't mind, it has been a hard week. I will read the CITES info tomorrow and comment, if I have any comment. Can't really see what the big issue is though, and concur with those who wonder why Pieter Kat cares...Who actually cares? Do you think the farmyard hunters don't realize they are not hunting a wild lion when they are 'tracking' it past the vegetable patch? What do the researchers of this particular study (yawn) have to say about the obviously wild lions in the safari areas around Kruger? Did they conveniently leave that area out of the equation? Just asking. Anyway, those who want to be sure of hunting a truly wild lion can just go north of the Limpopo...So what? What's the point of it all? Don't we have bigger issues to worry about than whether some obviously clueless hunters are being led to believe they are hunting a wild lion 20kms from Pretoria? I know, I know, I haven't read it yet... Goodnight, David | |||
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Well….let’s see…..2651 “wild lions”, plus 3024 “captive” lions, equals 5675 total lions hunted/killed by hunters in RSA alone. Average trophy fee per lion…estimate $35K USD. That means in RSA only, lion hunting generated a MINUMUM of $198,625,000 USD in just trophy fees alone. Now, if the average success rate is 75% then that means there were somewhere around 7093 lion hunting safaris conducted. With daily fees that run from $750 to $1500 or more per day (let’s use $1K per day as an average), times 21 days per hunt that comes to somewhere around $148,953,000 USD in daily fees. Still need to add in the cost of “bait animals” of say an average $5K per hunt and maybe an extra $10K average for extra “trophies” animals like maybe a cape buffalo and some plains game taken per hunt plus tips of an average of $2500 per DG hunt brings this sub total to somewhere around $124,127,500 USD So….humm in RSA alone, 7000 loin hunters in the process of killing 5600 lions generated somewhere around $471,705,500 of gross revenue for RSA. This doesn’t take into account some of the sight seeing they do before or after, taxidermy, dip/pack/ship to get their stuff home or any kit they may buy while there. In other words, 7000 hunters in RSA generated nearly one half the total gross revenue that it took one million photo tourists to generate in Kenya over the same period. Hummm…..yep, no viable economic impact that I can see here……guess we still need to add in all the hunters who just did plains game and buffalo and elephant and hippo and leopard and crocodile and biltong and the game ranches that sold excess live animals to other game ranches and exported some more to game ranches in other countries. | |||
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We did exactly that years ago when I was the SCI record book's editor. We also deleted all entries for lions taken in Namibia. The number of canned hunts in those two countries was increasing, and the majority of the members who shot those lions had no idea they had been duped. Today, a category for lions taken in South Africa or Namibia has been added and these entries are listed separately from the lions from other countries. Incidentally, the lion on my avatar was taken in Zambia. Bill Quimby | |||
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One does not need to look very hard to see that one can drive trucks through the arguments the anti put forth claiming them to be results of years of research. I will repeat it again. Any orgenization that stands against hunting is turning a blind eye to the conservation value of hunting. In fact, if you look hard enough, you will find that all these orgenizations do is pull the wool over the gullible eyes to get money out of them. | |||
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Jo, My apologies I did not realize that you had been promoted to a moderator on this forum. I honestly don't know what happens to the lions once they get too big to walk with and really would like to know. This does pertain to your "research" if you think about it. As for Pieter Kat, it's not petty tittle tattle, I am trying to establish credibility. My question as to whether Kat would care about hunters getting ripped off was rhetorical, I didn't expect an answer from you or him for that matter. You don't have to go over whether you have been in contact with Kat or not, I think that most of the readers of this thread will draw their own conclusions. Mitch, I probably should ask him on his blog but, to be honest, I couldn't be bothered because he will probably say that they are rehabilitated back into the wild. David, I don't know much about Kat, I do know that he is a rabid anti-hunter. You can find out more if you google "walking with lions" or "lion rehabilitation". Saeed, Your last comment puts it all into a nutshell, and in fact there is no point in any further discussion. So, like Fairgame, I will refrain from feeding the Supertroll. I am out of here.  Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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I'm really quite saddened by many responses in this thread. Is it really true that many here can't see past the end of their own noses? You would rather name call and berate anti hunters than deal with disorder in your own house. People who live in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones you know! You sit there and claim anti hunters twist truths, lie etc and that they need to stop but let's be honest here they are not the only ones whose house needs to be put in order! Canned lions being passed as wild is an issue, I have seen it here before and even people in the hunting industry admit it goes on. Team that with illegal leopard hunts going over quota, young lion and ele being shot, bad PHs, hunters who would jump off a cliff if they were told to, bribes, offers of replacement trophies etc etc and you kind of get the feeling you should be looking at your own industries dishonesty and lies first. Considering the CITES figures for south African lion trophies and animals available, baring in mind SAs largest population over 2000 are in Kruger park there is something wrong. Look at TOPS regulations which allow canned lion to be passed off at wild lion and there is something wrong. As for who cares, I do. Because when it comes time to allot quotas and the numbers are all wrong the quotas given will be wrong and the S A lion will be in danger. For people who care about conservation you sure are wearing the blinkers on this one. Or is it just because it ise who has brought this info forward and of course as usual I'm a threat to you. Well news in, the biggest threat to hunting is yourselves if you don't get your house in order. | |||
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All the screaming the antis are doing about canned lion hunting is nothing but a smoke screen. Personally, I see absolutely nothing wfrong with shooting captively bred lions. I know it is not hunting, and I know that I will not do it. But, what right have we got to stop those who wish to? And please don't give me that old line about them "only" bred to be killed. Just do a google search on how many other animals are killed every single day to feed humanity. Your title of this thread is very good. BUYER BEWARE! Yep, beware of antis trying to sound reasonable. | |||
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Don't kid yourself, I for one don't consider you any kind of threat at all, just getting a bit monotonous with the nitpicking now.... But I do find your contradictory comments humorous. Tell me Jolo, who brought all that illegal/unethical activity on the other threads into the public eye? At least we are trying to put our house in order which is a lot more than your jungle book friends are doing. | |||
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Saeed, You miss the point entirely. Yes everyone has a right to hunt canned lion if that is their choice. However canned lion should not be passed off as wild lion which is what is happening. This passing of results in inaccurate SCI records and inaccurate CITES data on how many wild lions there ACTUALLY are in SA and I don't need to spell out the consequences of that do I? | |||
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jolouburn, From your posts in this thread:
and
Let us just get constant terms here, twenty four months or 730 days! Does equating 730 days to "a few days" constitute presenting wrong facts in a misleading manner? In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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David, If you consider inaccurate data on the punt of wild lions in SA resulting from dishonest hunting outfitters passing off canned lion as wild as nit picking then there Is something seriously wrong! Please show me my contradictions. As for bringing the knowledge of illegal and unethical hunts into the public eye please don't kid yourself. You don't make them public you hide them in a forum. It's the antis who make them public and you don't like that one bit. | |||
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Andrew, Look at the other clause for passing canned lion as wild, it is a loophole. Even hunting outfitters admit this goes on and I have seen talk of it here in the many threads I have read. The figures don't add up. If you want to bury your head in the sand about this go ahead but I won't! | |||
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Would that be in a public forum? Can you see that contradiction in that sentence? Hang on for a couple more. I will wait for your nitpicking denial of the fact that this is indeed a public forum. | |||
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A few days ago we had a lawyer come in here and tried to tell us about "ethics"! We all know how THAT turned out. Now we have an anti trying to tell us what is good and what is not for hunting! What is the world coming to? It makes the mind boggles | |||
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jolouburn, I ended my first post in your thread like this:
Does it look as if I'm guilty of ? As for your suggestion that I should; I quite agree that there is a loophole. But the statement does very little to reply to my question, which I repeat here again: "Does presenting the wrong facts in such a manner that 730 days are equated to a few days constitute twisting of the truth? I'm in 100% agreement with this statement made by you: It is because of this fact that I thanked you for the original posting - and requested that you and everyone who becomes aware of any Hunting Outfitter or Professional Hunter attempting to pass a captive bred lion as a wild lion should blow the whistle! Please go read my first paragraph in my first posting again (which despite a finger slip on italics) show that I do care much about the false advertising that gives the PH industry in South Africa such a bad name. You are invited to reply to both of the questions posed here. Then, maybe, I will enlighten you by PM why I inserted the word "wrong" in my one question. In good hunting. Andrew McLaren | |||
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jolouburn's entry to the board:
I agree Saeed! We all need to quit feeding this little anti-hunting troll. I can see posts taken out of context showing up all over the place to further his agenda. There is room for all of God's creatures....right next to the mashed potatoes. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/   | |||
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We are in fact looking into it, as you have personally seen and as I have pointed out already. This over and over and over again bulldust is what is termed nitpicking. It reminds me of trying to deal with drunken 'warvet' youth on my border walk. You can see it and so can all the greenies, but there is never acknowledgment. Fast to leap on to anything they imagine they could twist into a negative story, and be able to pass off to the masses as the truth, but neither you or them will ever acknowledge the positive impact hunting has in some of the poorest areas in Africa, areas that the greenies would render destitute right now if they could. The reason I am not too interested in your latest topic is that it is not my dept, I know nothing about SA and SA hunting, we have an SA team here, there are others who can answer your questions better than me. | |||
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Jo, I brought up the the idea to LionAid that captive bred lions were being used pawned off as wild lions a long time ago. A year or two back, before they exposed there true "anti-hunter" beliefs. Gave them a couple of good examples as well. Then suggested that they get involved in educating hunters on spotting the difference before they booked a hunt. But that this has nothing at all to do with wild lions directly. Frankly you should support this as every captive lion killed is one less wild one while still bringing in the jobs and money. The only real downside are if the bones are sold to south east asia creating a market that didn't already exist. And the subsequent poaching of wild lions that may result. Now they bring it up like it was there fresh idea? No this is something hunters have been daylighting and something hunters have been working to address. But maybe they can raise a buck or two from there members over there expose of this "new" scandal or however they package it. Pieter Kat is a researcher... only problem is that his research throughout his career has been on snails and clams. He comes very lately to lions and implies great lion experience as a means to give LionAid credibility and gravetas. Don't believe me? Ask him for a list of his publications. I for one choose to listen to researchers that have spent a career in the field... with lions. John | |||
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David, Nice spin, however........posting on a forum your disgust about things which go on is not exactly 'doing anything about it' is it? I'm sure there are and i have conversed with some who are trying to do something from here but the majority are just keyboard warriors. If you (generic) really want the hunting industry to change then you're going to have to come clean and get the message out there that you're cleaning up house to a much wider audience. Saeed, Nice reverting to form there but please tell me:- 1. Can you honestly say that canned lions are not passed off as wild lions in SA? 2. Can you honestly say that if this is occuring that it does not mess with the facts and figures out there for the SA lion and ultimately could put them in danger? Andrew, My apologies, my wording could have been better in places but as any human i am not infallible. I would answer your questions but i can't find them or i am missing them. Please could you repeat them? Saucer of milk for Bb in Tx's table please. Might i suggest you go back to that thread and read it instead of jumping to conclusions from the first post and making an ass of yourself!
Again David there is a difference between being a keyboard warrior and actually doing something.
I can see everyone talking the talk but few actually walking the walk. I suggest you go back and read the other thread and see what i was willing to acknowledge in that thread again.
No you didn't say you weren't interested you said 'who cares anyway?'. If you're not interested thats just fine but why would you post in a thread you're not interested in?
John, And what was the response?
As i have said if people choose to hunt canned lion that is their choice and perhaps i should support it. However we are actually talking about canned lion being passed of as wild lion and being recorded in various places as wild lions. This then leads to the supposition there are more wild lion in SA than there actually are and could be potentially harmful when quotas are drawn up and decisions regarding SA lion are made.
I can't really comment on this not knowing the in's and out's. As for Pieter Kats qualifications again i can't really comment as i don't know but i will take a look at what you have said. | |||
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