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Jo, For the most part they really didn't care because it didn't play into there narrative they were pushing at the time. John | |||
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Good day to you jolouburn, I have also erred in not presenting the two questions clearly enough for you to understand. In my own defence I will just say that there are exactly two "?" in my last posting. The part just before each one of these are the questions I've asked you to reply to. But, seeing that you asked civilly, here they are again: Question 1: "Does it look as if I'm burying my head in the sand?" I'd say: No! Any person who (i) thanks you for bringing up the issue in your original post and then (ii) makes a plea that anyone and everyone who becomes aware of attempts to falsely pass a captive bred and released lion as a "wild" one should please blow the whistle, is surely NOT trying to duck the issue? Or am I wrong? If I am, please motivate your statement. As a side issue I'd ask a No. 1B question: "What in my actions or postings made you accuse me of burying my head in the sand?" Question 2: "Does presenting the wrong facts in such a manner that 730 days are equated to a few days constitute twisting of the truth?" These "facts" were taken directly from your posting - I've merely converted the 24 months into approximate days. I do look forward to your replies. In good hunting. Andrew McLaren. | |||
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Hi Andrew, Thanks for the clarification and repeating of your questions. To the first i can only apologise, my comment on the end of the post was meant as a generic one but unfortunately i did not make that clear and i can see how you thought that comment was directed at you. Your second question i apologise partially for too. I can see how it looks like i was attempting to twist the truth. This however was not my intention and i was speaking of the 'loophole' we briefly discussed. I however should have made that perfectly clear in my original posting and i apologise for not doing so. | |||
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Orignal postings by Zig Mackintosh
Originally posting by David Hulme
Original posting by John Hunt
Dr Pieter Kat :- *Degrees in biology / geology BSc *Marine biology Msc Ecology and evolution MA and PhD *10 years in Kenya establishing biological research programs at the national museums. *2 years in California and Georgia working on rabies virus genetics, african horse sickness and bluetongue among carnivores. 10 years studying lion populations in Botswana at the behest of the government. *Over 60 scientific papers on subjects such as taxonomy, ecology, genetics, reproduction and paleontology. Clam researcher? Five minutes research will show anyone that Dr Pieter Kat is far from what he has been portayed here as. Might i suggest that as you have advised me many times you do some careful research before making 'codswollop' claims. Dr Pieter Kat and 'walking with lions' :- Dr Pieter Kat is as has been suggested associated with Alert whom run the 'walking with lions' project. This project though as has been stated here is not his. Pieter Kat is a consultant biologist advising them on reintroduction programs and lion biology. Again might i suggest that you do some research before making 'codswollop' claims. ALERT and 'walking with lions' :- ALERT as many of you probably already know run a lion rehabilitation program. When looking at their website i realised i was already aware of them through watching some documentaries about their project. The 'walking with lions' project is used to raise essential monies for this project, a good fund raiser in my opinion. The lions participating in this project are no different to the ones not used and are rehabilitated into the wild, and before anyone tells me this is not possible i will beg to differ with first hand experience. When i visited the Lion Park in Johannesburg i played with lion cubs twice. The first were around 16 weeks of age and the second around 12 weeks. Many people pass through the gates of the Lion Park and the lion cubs there have a large amount of human contact. When the lion cubs become too old to be in contact with humans they are integrated into the prides that the Lion Park has. We drove round the pride enclosures and believe you me those lions that had previously been in close human contact were not going to welcome it now. Now lets be honest here, running activities such as 'walking with lions' and 'play with the cubs' is not ideal. Lions should never have that kind of human contact. However due to the depletion of lion numbers in the wild and the need to build up the population, places like Antelope Park and the Lion Park are essential. As you well know funds for essential projects are not always there and fund raising is generally a must. Lion walks and cub interaction are always good ways to raise those funds and in the long term are contributing to the greater good. Even your belief that hunting is good for the conservation of the lion has it's down side. In order for the protection hunting outfitters profess to provide lions have to die. We have created the problems wildlife face and now (maybe too late) we are all working our asses off to put it right, no matter what you believe the solution is we all share the same goal. The problem is putting it right may mean we have to do some things that aren't the ideal, in your case killing lions, in the anti-hunters case things like walking with lions. | |||
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Curriculum Vitae: Pieter W. Kat DOB - 27 January, 1954 Citizenship – Netherlands Education: 1971-1975 University of Rochester, NY BS (Biology/Geology) 1975-1978 University of Delaware, DE MS (Marine Biology) 1979 Johns Hopkins University, MD MA (Ecology & Evolution) 1979-1983 Johns Hopkins University, MD PhD (Ecology & Evolution) Experience: 1984-1993 Head, Department of Malacology & Genetics, National Museums of Kenya, Nairobi and Senior Research Scientist, Biology Section 1988-1990 Advisor, Global Environment Small Grants Program, UNEP 1993-1994 Research Scientist, Veterinary School, University of California, Davis 1994-1995 Research Scientist, US Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta 1995-2006 Director, Okavango Lion Research Program, Botswana Partial publication list: Kat PW. 1981. Shell shape changes in Gastropoda: shell decollation in Rumina decollata (Pulmonata: Subulinidae). Veliger 24(2):115-119. Kat PW. 1982. Effects of population density and substratum type on growth and migration of Elliptio complanata (Bivalvia: Unionidae). Malacol. Rev.15:119-27. Kat PW. 1982. Relationship between heterozygosity for enzyme loci and developmental homeostasis in peripheral populations of aquatic bivalves (Unionidae). Amer. Nat. 119: 824-832. Kat PW. 1982. Reproduction in a peripheral population of Cyrenoida floridana (Bivalvia: Cyrenoididae). Malacologia 23: 47-54. Kat PW. 1982. Shell dissolution as a significant cause of mortality for Corbicula fluminea (Bivalvia, Corbiculidae) inhabiting acidic waters. Malacol. Rev. 15: 129- 134. Kat PW. 1983. Genetic and morphological divergence among nominal species of North American Anodonta (Bivalvia, Unionidae). Malacologia 23: 361-374. Kat PW. 1983. Sexual selection and simultaneous hermaphroditism among the Unionidae (Bivalvia: Mollusca). J. Zool., Lond. 201: 395-416. Kat PW. 1983. Conchiolin layers among the Unionidae and Margeritiferidae (Bivalvia) – microstructural characteristics and taxonomic implications. Malacologia 24: 298-311. Kat PW. 1983. Fossil evidence from Fish House clays for the origin and changes in species composition through time of the northern Atlantic Slope Unionid fauna (Mollusca: Bivalvia). Proc. Acad. Nat. Sci. Phil. 135: 85-101. Kat PW. 1983. Morphological divergence, genetics, and speciation among Lampsilis (Bivalvia, Unionidae). J. Moll. Stud. 49: 133-145 Kat PW. 1983. Patterns of electrophoretic and morphological variation in a widely distributed unionid – an initial survey. Neth. J. Zool 33: 21-40. Kat PW, GM Davis. 1984. Molecular genetics of peripheral populations of Nova Scotian Unionidae (Mollusca, Bivalvia). Biol. J. Linn Soc. 22: 157-185. Kat PW. 1984. Parasitism and the Unionacea (Bivalvia). Biol. Rev. 59: 189-207. Kat PW, GM Davis 1984. Speciation of mollusks from Turkana basin. Nature 304: 660-661. Signor PW III, PW Kat. 1984. Functional significance of columellar folds in turritelliform gastropods. J. Paleontol. 58: 210–216 Kat PW. 1985. Historical evidence for fluctuation in levels of hybridization. Evolution 39: 1164-1169. Kat PW. 1985. Convergence in bivalve conchiolin layer microstructure. Malacol. Rev. 18: 97-106. Kat PW. 1986. Hybridization in a unionid faunal suture zone. Malacologia 27: 107-125. | |||
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And this supports your 'clam researcher' comment how? | |||
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He is getting a bit long in the tooth, hopefully he will be retired one way or another soon. | |||
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Really? Did you not read his list of publications? He just needs some garlic and butter. (Pulmonata: Subulinidae)  (Bivalvia: Unionidae) (Unionidae)  (Bivalvia: Cyrenoididae)  (Bivalvia, Corbiculidae) (Bivalvia, Unionidae) (Bivalvia: Mollusca) (Bivalvia) (Mollusca: Bivalvia) (Bivalvia, Unionidae) (Mollusca, Bivalvia) (Bivalvia) mollusks turritelliform gastropods  bivalve conchiolin unionid faunal | |||
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David, How adult and constructive! John, 60 publications of which you have chosen those that suit your purpose.As some AR members are fond of saying please research properly instead of presenting 'codswollop'. I would suggest that Pieter Kat has more qualification and knowledge of lion than many who post here and think they know it all including you. By the way John, how old are you? Cos if you're in your late 50's David thinks you should retire. | |||
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You are a time waster and you don't do yourself any credit. My statement was not a generalization, it was directed directly at Kat, as everyone can see. How adult and constructive of you. You are not looking to achieve anything constructive here, you are just a shit stirrer. You were right Jdollar, and I was wrong for giving this anonymous troll the time of day. | |||
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46 and retired  BTW: I didn't edit the resume, just copied and pasted it. | |||
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My that fuse of yours is short. I know your statement wasn't a generalisation and was aimed at a man, Pieter Kat who you don't know and don't have a clue about! Who are you to claim he should retire? Are you basing your ASSumption on what you have read here about him or are you an expert in the 'life and times of Pieter Kat'? As for the name calling, well all i hacve to say about that is it does YOU no credit. I thought hunters were whiter than white when it came to that and the onl;y people who name called were anti-hunters. I bet you are so proud of yourself. John, So you basically googled and copied and pasted the first information you came across. Come on John you're better than that! 46 and retired huh. Good on ya. Did David tell you to do it based on assumption, rumour and bad research?  | |||
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Google was not the source of his resume. Would you like to see one of his articles on lions? | |||
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John Hunt, Doesn't really matter what the source was i guess. The only thing that matters is that it's incomplete and fits your agenda well. Forgive me if i say no i don't want to see an article hand picked by you from Pieter Kat. I'm sure the reasoning behind that decision is pretty clear considering the inaccuracy of the resume. | |||
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I find a total of 4 published papers on Lions-all since 2000 One of which is the report from a confrence One is the book which doesnt even pretend to be scientific and one is an opinion piece-not a scientific paper Not exactly shining credentials---  SSR | |||
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Cross L I take it you found "the lore of the lions" also? Jo, why don't you post a more comphrehensive version of his resume Turns out to be an excellent resume if you print it... then saute it with shallots, garlic, butter, parsley and a little white wine. | |||
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Cross L, How convenient!! John, Perhaps i will but i'm a little busy at the moment researching a certain Dr and a certain researcher. Pretty interesting stuff, i'll share shortly. | |||
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Yes, very. SSR | |||
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Kate decided to bring up her children in the African bush after beginning a relationship with Pieter Kat, an evolutionary biologist running the Okavango Lion Research Project for the Botswana government. Her family moved to his camp by the Gomote river. There was no running water or electricity and the loo was a hole in the ground. When the children weren't in lessons with their mother, they helped track and monitor the lions. But Kate reveals: "The project had 230 resident lions but by the time we left it was down to 35 because of poaching and bad population-management by the wildlife services. "At least 68 lions were poisoned, among them Cabernet and Sauvignon. It was heartbreaking. | |||
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And HERE IT COMES! Some of you might remember that idiot who pretended to be a professor from an Australian University, who took all to task about hunting, by calling us something like "spoiled children" because we hunt? Isn't it amazing how these people who do not seem to be able to think for themselves, and see that DEATH goes hands in hands with LIFE. But are quick to call us "spoiled children" No, Jo, we ARE adults. We know that meat comes from animals. We know that without meat the human race would never have gotten where it has - and be able to give you all the wonderful technology so you and like minded people can twist it any which way to make a buck. | |||
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Care to act like an adult and answer the questions I asked you previously Sae | |||
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John, I'll address your post in the morning, it will take more time. | |||
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Mmmm let me see. Lion Park in Johannesburg, sounds like a real wilderness area. Are these lions that are released into the wild enclosures to join the swelling prides considered wild after 730 days? Do they release herds of wildebeest at a time for them to hunt or are they fed meat? Are the wild enclosures the lions final destination or are they rehabilitated back into the Kruger? Perhaps this article will help Jolo with her "research" Dr. Luke Hunter is considered one of the world's leading lion expert. He not pro-hunting but he does realize it's place in lion conservation. http://www.panthera.org/blog/w...ns-myth-conservation Dr. Luke Hunter. Barely a month goes by without news of someone getting into a tussle with a 'tame' big cat. A recent case in point showed a young lion in a South African resort roughing up a British journalist who thought it would make good copy to go into the animal's cage for a close encounter. It's easy to dismiss the stunt as journalistic nonsense (which it is) but dozens of operations across Africa sell similarly close encounters with lions to the average tourist. For a fee, just about anyone can play with cubs, take a stroll with young lions or pose for photos to show the folks back home. Inevitably, the marketing behind these outfits is heavy on the C-word -- 'conservation.' Visitors are told relentlessly that, by handing over their cash to cozy up to tame lions, they are helping to save the species in the wild. There's little doubt that lions are in dire need -- they have been eradicated from over 80% of their range in Africa alone -- but don't believe their advertising. Churning out cubs for photo opportunities is a great revenue earner but none of those cubs are set free. They are too tame. If they were ever to wander into a village or farm looking for a belly rub or a feed, the surprised locals would, not unreasonably, reach for their rifles or spears. Even assuming there is someplace sufficiently wild and people-free, captive-raised lions simply don't have the skills and experience to survive. Many of the tame lions released by Joy and George Adamson (of 'Born Free' and Christian the Lion fame) starved to death, were killed by people and wild lions or, in some cases, killed people themselves and were shot. The more sophisticated operations counter this by declaring that tame, tourist-friendly lions are not intended for release: rather, only later generations of captive-bred lions, not exposed to people, will be set free. Even setting aside the formidable obstacles in 'training' captive-bred lions to be wild, there simply isn't the need. In South Africa, there are now more than 500 reintroduced lions in 37 reserves -- the key difference being that all of them are wild born and bred. Starting back in 1992, South African biologists pioneered the process of translocating wild lions from marginal areas and reintroducing them into areas where people had wiped them out. It takes money and has risks, but considerably less of both than using captive lions. Wild lions captured in one place are already much better equipped to survive as wild lions in another place. But, of course, using wild lions to re-establish the species rules out charging gullible tourists for an up-close experience. Cute cub cuddling. If all of this fails to convince you to think twice about paying for an 'encounter,' ask the handlers point blank how many of their lions have gone back to the wild? If they furnish you a figure, they are probably lying. As I write this, I do not know of one example. In fact, most of them never actually attempt releases. Which begs another question -- what really happens to their lions? When cubs grow up, they cost a lot to feed and maintain, and they need to pay their way somehow. No problem. There is a thriving market for lions, mainly in South Africa, among 'lion farmers.' They buy surplus cats, much as livestock producers buy new stock on auction, and they breed them. For hunting. As adults, the cubs that cavort with tourists often end up in the gun-sights of trophy hunters. It's quite legal provided you have the permits. If you don't believe me, have a look at this report from the excellent South African program Carte Blanche. The bottom line is, the 'lion encounter' industry is only that -- an industry. I'm the first to applaud businesses finding ways for wildlife to generate a profit when it actually helps protect that wildlife. The same tourists who spend $200 for an afternoon of walking with tame lions could instead visit nearby national parks and game reserves where the entry price and lodge fees truly do help to conserve wildlife. For my money, stick with the real thing: no matter what the glossy brochures and slick websites claim, it won't ever involve tame lions. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Proves my point. These nitwits are bent on "animals should be free to roam" theory. Forgetting that us humans who decide what is valuable and what is not. If it has no value, it can bloody well die off - especially in Africa. Actuall, all we have to do is look at the plight of the Indian tiger and animals in Kenya. They are in much worse state than when hunting was allowed. You know, I think all these bunny huggers are financed by poachers, if Kenya is an example of what is going on. | |||
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John, This is an extremely tragic and sad story. But a story is all it is, you don't source this and it doesn't appear to be research. I'm also not sure how this fits into our conversation unless you are implying that Pieter Kat was directly responsible for the deaths of those lions. Surely you would not cast such a huge and potentially libelous accusation? Now I'm not good with geography but i am pretty sure that the Okavango is a pretty huge land mass especially if it provided habitat for 230 lions. Are you reeally trying to say that one man could possibly be responsible for the protection of all those lions? There is a project in Zambia which Dr Paula White is running. Have any lions been poached there? I'm pretty sure there will have been, is Dr White responsible for this? If she is perhaps it is just that she took too much on what with the hyaena studies she was running at the same time as the lion project. Or perhaps it was because she wasn't there for parts of 2008 and 2009 when she was in alaska and then studying foxes according to her 9 publications. | |||
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Saeed, Further to my recent post i will ask again how about you answer my questions instead of ranting and berating? I also have another question for you which i'm pretty sure you'll ignore as well bt hey ho! When you discovered that outfitters were posting illegal leopard hunts on your forum what did you do about it? I know you didn't remove all the advertisements because i came across one. I do know however you made a keyboard warrior post about it here. But what did you actually do Saeed? Did you report this outfitter? Or did you just sit back and ignore it? Whilst on this subject whilst most people here claim to abhor the fact that canned lion are offered as wild has anyone actually tried to do anything about it? Has anyone reported any of the shenanigans reported in All Gones thread? Come on theres plenty there, a possible cow killing, def an under age killing, bribery, offering of replacement trophies etc etc. Or have you all just sat on your lap tops and pcs and keyboard warriored? What about the hunting reports where spotlights have been used in the hunting of lion? Only leopard and lion are allowed to be hunted with spotlight according to TOPS? Anyone done anything about that? You (generic) claim to want to clean up your house but unfortunately sitting on your laptops and pcs just doesnt cut the mustard. You dont care about cleaning up house, your only concern is keeping your right to hunt. | |||
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Dr Luke Hunter: "The views we expressed in the Science piece are echoed by the great majority of credible lion scientists and conservationists. [Dr] Kat can attack us individually all he likes; it does not change the fact that most of the lion conservation community considers his project valueless in terms of its stated conservation goals. That is not an attack on [Dr] Kat (unlike those he makes on us), rather it is an objective assessment of the value and risks of his project. Incidentally, I spoke at length to Jerry Guo about the fact that reintroduction is much more likely to succeed with wild lions, of which there are many available. [Dr] Kat shows just how out of touch he is by suggesting the species is now too scarce for that to be an option." | |||
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Dr. Kat Lore of the Lions Here's a paper he authored. Look I think Dr. Kat is a bright guy. But he is a bit late to the lion research game and is going against the mainstream thoughts on lion conservation (from a scientific view). Frankly he is overreaching his resume using his credentials as he is to provide LionAid scientific "cover" for there anti hunting efforts. As for sourcing my bit above just take the first paragraph and paste it in Google. | |||
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Zig, You missed my point or perhaps i didn't make it very clear. Either way i'll explain. I was only refering to the implication that could possibly be made of lions who have had too much interaction with humans could not behave like lions. The lions in The lion park would certainly not have welcomed human interaction after being integrated with the pride. I do not know if the lions are reintroduced into places such as the Kruger Park. I do however know they run many projects for the conservation of lion. The lion Park is also in the middle of nowhere, joberg is the nearest city. I will read the info you have provided but i am sceptical considering i have read scathing reviews of Dr Luke Hunter. Perhaps he is only revered by the hunting community much like Dr Paula White and Craig Packer. Perhaps Packer isnt a good example considering he has recently appeared to have a change of heart claiming hunting is running at unsustainable levels and that you (generic) should clean your house up if hunting is to be allowed to continue.
I saw this recently too. The journalist made a choice to go in and any resulting injuries were his own fault. Just as the scratches and bruises, loss of hair and big holes in my cardigan were my problem when i interacted with the cubs.
Thats a mighty big statement to make. I'd very much like to see evidence of this.
As i said previously i have experience to the contrary. Lions that had been recieving belly rubs up to about the age of 4 month were not looking for them by 12 month. More likely they would maul you. The bottom line for me is that there is no evidence that proves your theory. I have seen proof that lions can be rehabilitated into the wild. Ive been to places they have done it and very sucessfully.I also know that there have been successful reintroductions of lions from Antelope Park into the true wild. So i'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the merits or vice versa of rehabilitation programs. I do respect your opinion though and your right to hold it. | |||
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More name calling, how grown up. Animals should be free to roam. It is only because humans have encroached on land belonging to them that they can't.
Believe you me i know this only to well. Man is arrogant, selfish and just loves to stamp his authority. What you and others are forgetting is that everything on this planet has its value without man having to put their stamp on it. Every creature and plant does their bit for the system, the good old circle of life. Without the predator the prey would overrun and without the prey the predator would not survive.
You know of all the things said to me in this forum i find this the most insulting. I am paid by noone to stand up for my beliefs, i make no money out of my beliefs. I spend a fair bit of money on them and i give up a lot of my time for them but never have i gained anything financially. For me some hunters have more in common with poachers, you both kill animals and enjoy it and you both behave illegally. Hunters not all the time but you certainly turn a blind eye to it. All these anti hunting rants by many here and aspersions on peoples characters have only gone to prove one of my earlier points, you can't bare to admit canned hunting are passed off as wild lion and admit corruption so you go on the offensive. How caring you truly are when it comes to wildlife and its conservation. | |||
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ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT- DON'T FEED THE TROLL!! IT IS LIKE TEACHING A PIG TO DANCE- FRUSTRATES YOU AND BORES THE PIG!!! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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John, I've read the first post you made in its entirety. Honestly i dont think much Of Dr Luke Hunter but thats just my opinion. I'll google your second piece and take a look at where it came from. See you may think Dr Kat is behind the times and going against the grain scientifically but even if that is the case it doesnt make him wrong. Noone can 100% guarantee that their ideas on lion conservation are the right ones. Honestly though i think both sides of the fence read different research, some only that which supports their agenda. But thats everyones right. I respect that everyone here has the right to opinions, it is just the same not everyone here can do the same. It could have made for some very interesting discussions and exchanging of thoughts and ideas etc. I will add there are certain people here who i have huge respect for such as ledvm, nganga, frostbit, aaron and probably others including yourself. You and those mentioned afore have always treat me with respect and accepted that we may have different views but we do both actually want the same thing. | |||
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jdollar, Might i suggest that other don't need you telling them what to do. If they wish to converse with me they will and if they dont they wont. Also can you think of a new insult, that ones boring now. | |||
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given my limited intellect and short notice, it's the best i can do. after all i am just another savage out to kill everything i can. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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I'm sorry Jojo your two trips to a Joburg lion park doesn't qualify you as an expert that we can believe in. I am really upset that I didn't make your favorites list. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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me>>>>  | | | | | | | | | | | | | \/ Zig  | |||
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I know and I am so jealous!!  Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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So we have someone who has spent most of his life doing research on snails, and someone who had visited a couple of game parks in South Africa pass themselves as the saviours of the lions1 Absolutely fantastic, you are both doing a GRAND job!  | |||
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Problem is they have good branding and are getting some play with politicians in there bid to ban the import of lion trophies into England. With a follow on plan to convince the US to do the same. | |||
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