Fellow African Hunters,

I recently received the following e-mail, as well as signed and notarized hard copies via USPS Priority mail. These two courageous hunters have delivered this formal complaint against Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris (OoA) to the SCI Ethics Committee as well as their local SCI chapters, despite knowing what they are up against.

The SCI Ethics Committee heard their complaint in Tucson at the regularly scheduled August meeting. It was also sent to PHASA and Don Causey of the Hunting Report at the same time. The Hunting Report and SCI are supposedly waiting for a rebuttal from Out of Africa telling their side of the story. I do not know what, if anything, PHASA has done or intends to do about these allegations.

If anyone has any information that can be proved in a court of law, NOW is the time to come forward. There is an ongoing investigation by a USFWS task force into allegations of Lacey Act violations and a pattern of illegal game violations on the part of Out of Africa and many of their American clients. The Federal prosecutors are not interested in hearsay stories, but if anyone has anything that will stand up in court, they are very interested in hearing what you have to say. They are also interested in the names, addresses, and phone numbers of anyone who has hunted with OoA in any African country, not just Zimbabwe. Forward any information you have to me and I will make sure it gets to the proper authorities.

Many people in SCI have wanted to take action against OoA, but legally their hands were tied, because no actual SCI members had filed any complaint against OoA. There may be instances where some members want this whole incident swept under the rug, because they themselves are guilty of corruption and game law violations and do not want to be brought down in the debacle. The expanse of this thing is incredible as it goes from the smallest local SCI chapter's officers and members to the top echelons of Safari Club International itself.

With all of the complaining and discontent from the rank and file SCI members about the complaints against OoA being stonewalled and ignored by the local, regional, national, and international SCI officers, as well as members of the Ethics Committee; now is an opportune moment to rid SCI of the rotten wood it has accumulated over the recent years. Not only can legal actions be taken against these perpetrators, but they can also be thrown out of SCI permanently, heavily fined, and sent to prison. This has many in SCI quaking in their boots, despite their money, influence, and power. If these people do not think they can be touched, then they should consider the recent fate of Dennis Kozlowski and Mark Swartz of Tyco International.

In addition, Out of Africa has been known for "donating" hunts to The National Rifle Association and The Wild Turkey Federation in the past couple of years. I do not know if any other conservation groups have been targeted for their "donations", but it is a fact that OoA has gone after the NRA and WTF. If any of you are members or officers of other organizations, it would be a prudent move to alert your Boards of Directors, Ethics Committees, etc. to investigate any attempts to "donate" hunts on the behalf of OoA.

The members of these organizations who have acted as the enablers of OoA and their "donations" need to be scrutinized as well for their involvement with and actions on behalf of OoA. Other organizations such as FNAWS, RMEF, DU, PF, QU, etc. would be logical organizations to be included for "donations", considering the precedent OoA has set with Safari Club International.

In any event, here is the full text of the complaint that was filed against Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris. What happens next depends in large part on the pressure that each one of you can individually bring to bear within your sphere of influence. The overall success of the prosecution can be further enhanced by any information you can provide to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles. They are very interested in anyone who has been lion hunting with OoA, has been the victim of any strong-arm shakedowns for additional money while in Africa, or have been offered any hunts, which were clearly illegal and/or unethical in nature.

Remember the words often incorrectly attributed to Edmund Burke, “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothingâ€. If you know anything about this, and chose to do nothing, then you are no better than the Groenewalds and the people behind them.

Best Regards,

Alan Bunn




Jerry Nave
468 Spring Meadows
Idaho Falls, ID 83404
(208) 552-7323
nave@advantageeyecenters.com


Michael Anczak
S 94 W 23670 Kunzendorf Ct
Big Bend, WI 53103
(262) 662-1266
MichaelAnczak@aol.com



Comments regarding safari with Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris

Below is a brief summation of the problems and deception that took place during and after our hunt. A limited amount of documentation is listed to support all that is said. Additional documentation is available and will be offered if required for any purpose.

Mike and I booked two hunts in January of 04 at the SCI convention with Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris (OAAS). Mike’s booking was for sable & leopard, and my hunt for sable, leopard, and buffalo. Both hunts were to take place in Matesti Unit 1, in Zimbabwe with the association of EK Safaris (1). Additional animals of importance were bushbuck and eland. Completed contracts and deposits were made by March of 04(2). Remember these dates.

Numerous emails were exchanged during the time frame between contract signing and our hunt which was scheduled for May of 2005. After our contract signing, the firestorm about South African safari hunting companies doing business in Zimbabwe hit the hunting reports etc. OAAS continued to assure us that our hunt was going as planned and everything was in order.

In March of 2005, Mike and I received a letter from Janneman Groenewald (OAAS) informing us that we needed to pay for our safari in full 60 days before our hunt begins(3). I did increase my deposit but told them I would not pay in full (trophies etc) until our safari actually commenced which was inline with our original signed contract.

Let’s jump forward to the hunt. We arrived in Victoria Falls as planned on May 19th, 2005. We were picked up by OAAS PH’s Josua Van Straaten and Geffert Pretorius. On the way to Matesti, I was told by casual conversation (with Josua) that there weren’t permits for bushbuck or eland. We were not told of this until now. We arrived at camp but it was Unit 5 Matesti and not Unit 1. Also, we were told that this concession was owned by Nyala Safaris, not EK Safaris. Later, we learned that HHK Safaris also owned the rights to Unit 5. Nyala and HHK split the concession rights to the animals by 50% for each. A quota for 4 sable would be split among them –two for each company. Both the PH’s Josua and Geffert are South Africans and therefore can not legally guide or operate any safari activity in Zimbabwe.

When we arrived, we asked if any leopards were hitting our baits. Geffert informed us that there were no baits hanging. We were told at booking that they would pre-bait for us. We asked if we could go out today and start shooting and hanging bait. We were told that they didn’t have permission to hunt today nor has the Zimbabwe licensed PH’s arrived. Already the safari was beginning to smell funny; no legal PH’s, wrong Matesti unit & Zim. safari company, no pre-baits and no permits for eland or bushbuck. We were also told at camp that bait impala was going to cost $150.00. Our contract stated that each bait impala would be priced at $50.

The next day, May 20th, we were ready to hunt at daybreak. The OAAS PHs kept us waiting for hours. Finally, they admitted that they didn’t have permission to hunt or permit for game from Zim. Parks and Wildlife Service. We were told that the park service was telling the OAAS that they need to pack up and leave! The PH’s said that there was a dispute between Nyala/OAAS vs. the Park & Wildlife Service. They would try to work it out. So far only one licensed Zim PH had arrived. We told OAAS that these problems needed to be worked out quickly. We didn’t fly over here to sit in camp all day while they sorted out their problems.

The following day, May 21st, we were told by OAAS PH’s that we had permission to hunt bait –but only bait for leopard for now. Everything else needed to be sorted out (later that day, this story changed to that we could hunt sable). We left to hunt bait –all of us in one truck. Ten people crammed into one vehicle. We paid for a one on one hunt-not this. We should have had two vehicles-not one. The reason for one vehicle is that we only had one Zim. licensed PH with us. We did come across a small heard of buffalo. Josua and Geffert assessed the heard and we stalked them for several hours. Josua and Geffert selected the buff for me to shoot which I did. The first shot broke both front shoulders of the buffalo dropping him to the ground. Joshua and Geffert immediately shot at the buff. The back-up shot was unwanted and unnecessary. I told them I would empty my gun on it before I ever took a shot. The PH’s shooting was not warranted by a safety concern.

When the vehicle arrived with Mike and other staff members, it became apparent that there was a problem with shooting the buffalo. Mike and the only licensed Zim PH had stayed with the vehicle during the stalk. The buffalo was shot several miles from any licensed Zim PH.

After dark that evening, David arrived and is the only other Zimbabwe licensed PH in camp. David works for the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife, Mugundumu Safaris Matesti Unit 5. After dinner we discussed our intention to hunt sable, and leopard. David seemed quite bothered by the fact we each wanted sable.

On the morning of May 22nd, David stated that we now have permission to hunt! Does this mean that we didn’t have permission yesterday when the buff and some bait were shot?

He also announced that we didn’t have permits for hunting sable. None! Throughout the day the deception continued to creep out. The upshot is that there were no permits for sable for quite some time. There were only two sable on quota for Nyala Safaris which were shot several weeks ago with Geffert Pretorius as the PH! They new it and they have been hiding this fact for three days. Also, they were taking us to areas in unit 5 that were unlikely to have sable to keep us from coming in contact with a sable. We were hunting in areas better for buffalo and this is why we came across the buffalo earlier in the week. Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris in January of 2005 knew that there wouldn’t be enough permits in Matesti for sable (4). They over sold the hunt. I pointed out the dates of our contract and the letter asking for additional payments. Clearly, they knew of the problem well before Mike and I flew to Africa! What little hunting we had done up to this point was obviously a sham as far as the sable was concerned. We were told earlier that we were hunting for sable, buff and bait. Clearly, we were not.

Later in the day after Mike and I had a very serious pointed discussion with our PH’s and the Zim PHs regarding the situation. We told them we were going to leave if these problems aren’t sorted out. We didn’t fly over here for photographic safari or for the bait and switch tactics. By bait and switch, I am referring to the enormous pressure from the minute they picked us up, to the current discussion for us to shoot other animals not on our contract such as Zebra, Giraffe, and Kudu etc. It makes sense now; keep us busy shooting other stuff so we don’t leave upset over the sable, leopard situation. By the way, the “other†animals they wanted us to shoot were at greatly inflated prices from what we were quoted at the time of our booking!

Some time after the heated discussion that day, OAAS and the Zim PHs stated that they would allow us to shoot one sable in Matesti unit 5 and squeeze the books for the permit. I asked, “Does squeezing the books mean fixing them?†They confirmed my suspicion. They quickly took Mike and me to another area of the unit to look for sable. Mike and Geffert spotted a monster sable. Geffert called David to verify permission to shoot it. The permission was denied! Mike was only allowed to videotape the near 50 inch sable! At sundown Josua and I spotted a second sable that was a likely shooter. Josua and I were in a separate vehicle than Mike and separated from him. I was told by Josua that Mike was stalking the sable that he radioed earlier about. At this point in time, I didn’t know that Mike was denied permission to shoot the sable he spotted. I was told Mike was hunting a sable and might have shot it, and therefore I couldn’t go after the one I spotted. That was the final straw –almost. At dinner that evening Mike informed me of the sable and showed the videotape to everyone of the near 50 inch animal. Mike informed me of the denial to shoot it which was not what the OAAS PHs told me. When Mike and I confronted everyone with this obvious conflicting story, David and the OAAS PH’s confirmed they denied Mike to shoot it and they didn’t what me to shoot one yet either because they didn’t have the permit problem sorted out. We told them that this is it! No more deception would be tolerated. They then offered to take us to another hunt area of 6k acres to shoot a sable. They could get one permit for that area/farm. We told them that we each booked a hunt for sable. What about the other permit? They later stated after a heated discussion that we could shoot two and they would come up with another permit later.

Mike and I didn’t feel comfortable with this situation. It sounded too much like poaching or very close to it. Plus we didn’t fly to Zim to hunt 6k acre area box hunt. At this point in the hunt we had some bait hanging for leopard. But let me discuss the problems with it. It has taken 4 or 5 days now to hang a few bait animals. Clearly not much time left to hunt now. The bait was ridiculously treated. I have photos of anywhere from 6 or 8 people dragging the bait to the tree (6). Think of this, 6 people dragging one Impala? Wouldn’t that leave more human sent than animal? Ya right! All of the baits were near the road. You could literally drive the road and see the bait in the tree for most of them. Do you think a leopard would ever come in during shooting hours in that situation? Now let me point something else out. There were only 5 leopards on quota for unit 5. The quota would be split between HHK and Nyala Safaris. That would leave 2 to 3 for Nyala. If Mike and I shot a leopard each, what would they have left for the remainder of the season? Makes sense now doesn’t it. Read on – it gets worse.

Very late that evening of May 22nd, we had a frank discussion with David of Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife (Mugundumu Safaris) concerning the poor treatment and obvious fraud being committed. He felt quite badly about the situation and offered to show us some documentation concerning our hunt (7). The first document was a memo stating the OAAS is banned from conducting any safari operations in the entire country of Zimbabwe. The second document was the contract between Nyala Safaris and OAAS indicating that they have oversold the hunts for the amounts of permits actually available for sable and leopard! We videotaped and photographed the documents. I retained a copy of the contract between Nyala Safaris and OAAS.

At day break on May 23rd, they wanted to move us to another camp to hunt the one sable located 4 1/2hrs away (in Gwayi). We would have to abandon the baits for now! How can you hunt leopard and sable in two different camps 4 to 5 hours apart one way? Worse yet, they also announced that HHK would be arriving to share the concession and camp in two days. Get this, even if we come back to hunt the leopard, HHK Safaris would be driving the roadways with their clients looking for animals. How can we sit in a blind and have any reasonable chance at a leopard with HHK driving near us and our bait? We were told that HHK was bringing in a party of twelve people and would be using at least three vehicles. My understanding is that the OAAS PH’s were aware of HHK’s scheduled arrival for quite some time.

That was it. No permits for sable. The leopard hunt was a farce from what I saw. We certainly had zero chance for leopard. We made them take us to town so we could make arrangements to get back to the USA. We had enough of the charade.

While in Victoria Falls, the phone calls were never ending from Dawie Groenewald (of OAAS) and Headman Sibanda (of Nyala Safaris). Headman wanted payment for our safari and Dawie wanted us to agree not to disclose the situation to any authority or the Hunting Report. We demanded our money back and Dawie told us repeatedly by phone and email we would receive checks. So far, we haven’t received anything and phone calls and emails are now not returned.

I have enclosed a partial amount of the documentation with description of its importance. Additional documentation exists and is available if requested.

The above nightmarish event is the kind of thing you read about happening to someone else. Unfortunately, it is our nightmare.

Disappointed,


Jerry Nave Michael Anczak
Signed in presence of notary Signed in presence of notary
Sworn and subscribed before me Sworn and subscribed before me
This ______day of __________________ this ______day of ____________

_____________________________ ___________________________
Signature of notary Public Signature of Notary Public
State of Idaho State of Wisconsin
Comission expires: Comission expires:



Referenced documentation

(1) Letter from Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris declaring they are hunting with EK Safaris

(2) Signed contracts

(3) Demand letter from Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris for advanced in-full payment

(4) Signed contract between Nyala Safaris and Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris showing over bookings and also conducting safari operations in Zimbabwe.

(6) Photos of multiple people dragging bait – improperly

(7) A Photo of Mike videotaping the documentation. Also, photos of the actual documentation Mike and I videoed and photographed.

(8) SCI legal notice regarding Geffert Pretorius

As much as I hate clients getting screwed, I just cannot feel sorry for these guys; the stories about OoAAS were so numerous and so troubling, they were fools for booking with them.

George

What is the fee for a fake PH?

Alan

You have a PM. Please read it and respond asap

George,

Many people know absolutely nothing about OoA and thier problems in the hunting world. and selling false hunts and unthical hunts..Someone may go to the SCI Reno and buy the hunt on the up and up and like these two guys get a royal hosing...The only honesty was from the Zim who worked for the Parks system.. If one never came on AR and inquired they would be ignorant of the lies...IMO...

Mike

Well folks, I've seen a lot of accusations and complaining about OOA and SCI, so much so that I haven't joined SCI because of it. I guess it's time for the people that have been doing it to fish or cut bait.

I would ask that you guys keep your comments as mild as poosible on this topic. It is not in the best interests of anyone to create a shitstorm here about this investigation.

Fjold- We are all waiting...Don't hold your breath!

I hope SCI does the right thing!

Being a SCI member that's all I have to say!!!!

I see this as positive step in the right direction, and its way over due....but at this point I see Zimbabwe as totally currupt and deals in the safari business are being cut daily...

This may be just the tip of the iceberg and the beginning of the end for a great country with what was once the game field of the world...

Here we go again...

Mike,

It is incumbent on anyone planning a safari to check out the people they are dealing with. Exercising due diligence when thousands of dollars are at stake is just common sense.

While AR is a great resource, there are others: fellow SCI Members, Hunting Report, checking references, etc.

George

Hey George, This hunt was booked two years in advance. Long before much was said about OAAS. References were checked in which all gave thumbs up --one reference was, and still is a sitting member of the SCI Ethics commitee. He gave thumbs up too! After returning from the debacle of a hunt.--he was recalled and asked to explain is earlier good recommendation. He then started to complain about not receiving his trophies from OAAS and that he knows that there is some "trouble" with them --so much for honesty and ethics--SCI and the Hunting Report was reviewed for negative write-ups --- nothing disturbing was found --nothing! Actually -darn little was available on these guys that is negative until now --so don't start saying we should have known-- the hunt was booked at Reno (we checked with officals there too on these guys) The SCI so far has turned a blind eye in my opinion to "troubled" outfitters who donate large quantities of hunts --or in other words - generate large sums of cash for SCI. SCI needs to pay attention to what it should be doing-- that is-- protecting the hunting membership! Not acting as enablers for dishonest outfitters or safari companies. Where are the morals and ethics in the SCI leadership??? Did they loose their gonads in some cheap South African houseof ill repute??? Hopefully, SCI will turn a new leaf --ya right. You don't know me -nor the amount a research we did before we booked -- so don't be calling me or my friends fools -- A real fool spouts off with little knowledge of the facts-

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
As much as I hate clients getting screwed, I just cannot feel sorry for these guys; the stories about OoAAS were so numerous and so troubling, they were fools for booking with them.

George

Hopefully at the very least we see the end of OOA donated hunts or attendance at SCI shows.

These discussions have been going on at AR well before 2004. And just google and you find negative references quite easily from 2003.

August 2003
September 2004
December 2004
September 2003

That short list is only a few and took ten minutes.

I hope these two gentlemen do get some satisfaction from the complaint.

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
Hey George, This hunt was booked two years in advance. Long before much was said about OAAS. References were checked in which all gave thumbs up --one reference was, and still is a sitting member of the SCI Ethics commitee. He gave thumbs up too! After returning from the debacle of a hunt.--he was recalled and asked to explain is earlier good recommendation. He then started to complain about not receiving his trophies from OAAS and that he knows that there is some "trouble" with them --so much for honesty and ethics--SCI and the Hunting Report was reviewed for negative write-ups --- nothing disturbing was found --nothing! Actually -darn little was available on these guys that is negative until now --so don't start saying we should have known-- the hunt was booked at Reno (we checked with officals there too on these guys) The SCI so far has turned a blind eye in my opinion to "troubled" outfitters who donate large quantities of hunts --or in other words - generate large sums of cash for SCI. SCI needs to pay attention to what it should be doing-- that is-- protecting the hunting membership! Not acting as enablers for dishonest outfitters or safari companies. Where are the morals and ethics in the SCI leadership??? Did they loose their gonads in some cheap South African houseof ill repute??? Hopefully, SCI will turn a new leaf --ya right. You don't know me -nor the amount a research we did before we booked -- so don't be calling me or my friends fools -- A real fool spouts off with little knowledge of the facts-

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
As much as I hate clients getting screwed, I just cannot feel sorry for these guys; the stories about OoAAS were so numerous and so troubling, they were fools for booking with them.

George

quickshot,
Since you didn't sign your name, I have no way of knowing if you are one of the aggrieved parties or just a prankster.

Assuming you are one of the aggrieved, do you feel like a fool after being screwed over by OoAS or not? Why don't you take out your hostility on them, or better yet, why didn't you contact Parks & Wildlife immediately, while you were in camp and this crap was occurring?

I KNOW we've been talking about this outfit since 2002, if not earlier. Groenewald's wife came on AR once, pretending to be a satisfied client, but she was busted pretty quickly.

My recollection is that The Hunting Report contained comments about this controversial outfit and their operations in Zimbabwe by Don Causey or one of his correspondents (perhaps someone can re-post them), although it may not have had any negative hunt reports.

SCI's position has always been "they haven't been convicted", which is a shameful position to take, as it exposes Members to serious risks if they book with this outfit. Don't expect much action from SCI; they're not likely to drop such a big supporter without a lot of pressure.

The fact is that an internet search on this outfit would have turned up some very disturbing accounts, enough to make some people look elsewhere.

George

There is not a negative hunting report on OAAS in the Hunting Report service. Would you accept as good source for references members of the SCI Ethics committee? Unfortunately we did. Many ranking members of SCI leadership also has hunted with them and gave a thumbs up --sorry but we thought that was indicative of a good company -nothing negative. I emailed Don when the write ups you are referring about came out -- I didn't get an impression that was troubling--if you recall, the published comments were general comments about RSA companies operating in Zim -not just OAAS. Also he published an article that exonerated them as doing nothing illegal. Remember that? Anyway, Don certainly didn't discourage me or my friends from hunting with them. I am not taking hostility out on you--you called me a fool right? I bet that you have never been taken advantage of -right? Or maybe you just don't realize it. Whatever., so sorry, but I wasn't aware of this site until recently, I wished I had known about it earlier--obviously! Can't change that now. Our down- fall is that we relied on the Hunting Report, SCI and referances associated with SCI (who hunted with OAAS) I admit it--and I am not ashamed of it. Look George- anyone can get fooled -at least I admit it happened to me and willing to try and do something about it. My advice is that it can and it will happen to you --know one has a crystal ball. Calling names or looking down your nose at people is not necessary.

SCI Ethics committee isn't going to do a thing unless the feds decide to publicly prosecute OAAS and SCI members who were involved in illegal hunts. If the feds decide to prosecute SCI will likely find it necessary to distance themselves from all the people involved.


I filed ( mailed ) a negative hunt report against a South African outfitter ( not OAAS ) with SCI years ago. They say they never received it, I then filed a negative report on their web page, it was never made available to the public. Posing as a potential client I emailed SCI asking for all hunt reports on the outfitter, they promptly faxed 4 good reports. I called SCI and told them I knew a bad report on the outfitter existed. They still could not find any bad reports. Only after giving them the hunt report number and telling them I was the person that filed it did they acknowledge its existence.

I am no longer a member of SCI

i have seen their disreguard for animals/game/clients first hand 2 years ago(i was there and watched it-they were on our concession) i made along post describing it, they hunt with unconcinable tactics and have no reguard for nature, they are the best thing PETA has going for them, which we bear the burden for.

Would you accept as good source for references members of the SCI Ethics committee?

Most definitely NOT!

I have no idea what they are supposed to do, but, from the way they have been skirting around all the complaints about OoA, I really have no faith in them whatsoever!

I am a Life Member of SCI.

Three years ago the independence of the SCI Ethics Committee was stripped by the then President Gary Bogner. He used it to punish his detractors and others that had irritated he and his friends.

Remember the Mozambique Elephant hunts by two SCI Presidents and a couple of rich gentlemen? Swept under the carpet and the investigator, Norm Epley, tossed by the ethics Committee on trumped up charges by the current President and Executive Director.

It is a political tool now so don't expect any action worth noting.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Three years ago the independence of the SCI Ethics Committee was stripped by the then President Gary Bogner. He used it to punish his detractors and others that had irritated he and his friends.

Remember the Mozambique Elephant hunts by two SCI Presidents and a couple of rich gentlemen? Swept under the carpet and the investigator, Norm Epley, tossed by the ethics Committee on trumped up charges by the current President and Executive Director.

It is a political tool now so don't expect any action worth noting.

Sorry I don't remember, can you please bring us up to date?

quickshot,

I would never take the word an SCI big wig; the relationship with big donors is incestuous, at best.

I was not looking down my nose at the victims of this fleecing, but your due diligence just wasn't thorough enough.

Live and learn. Good luck with the complaint; I hope some restitution is made. IIRC, the Groenewalds live in Overland Park, KS. Perhaps a civil action can be filed.

George

This man Quickshot has taken a stand, he has the USFW involved, he made SCI move, he intends to do something about it, and it looks like to me he is getting something done AS OPPOSED to some that sit on their ass and whine and condem on the internet...thats what I find incestuous, arrogant, judgmental and embarrassing....Some of you are out of line and bloviating on something that you only have limited information on...Not unusual on the airways.

Is it Ray O'Reiley now.

I've been trying to decide whether to attend SCI-Reno or DSC at Dallas. This thread has made up my mind for me.

465H&H

Good luck Quickshot. I hope this works out for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well folks, I've seen a lot of accusations and complaining about OOA and SCI, so much so that I haven't joined SCI because of it. I guess it's time for the people that have been doing it to fish or cut bait.

I, unfortunately, joined SCI before I found out it was supporting the effort to return all the white-owned property in RSA to the black majority. I won't renew.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well folks, I've seen a lot of accusations and complaining about OOA and SCI, so much so that I haven't joined SCI because of it. I guess it's time for the people that have been doing it to fish or cut bait.

I, unfortunately, joined SCI before I found out it was supporting the effort to return all the white-owned property in RSA to the black majority. I won't renew.
Dave

Well that's Bullshit. Where did you pull that one out of?

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Three years ago the independence of the SCI Ethics Committee was stripped by the then President Gary Bogner. He used it to punish his detractors and others that had irritated he and his friends.

Remember the Mozambique Elephant hunts by two SCI Presidents and a couple of rich gentlemen? Swept under the carpet and the investigator, Norm Epley, tossed by the ethics Committee on trumped up charges by the current President and Executive Director.

It is a political tool now so don't expect any action worth noting.

Sorry I don't remember, can you please bring us up to date?

Jim

You have a PM

George S,

"Out of Africa" returns 199,000,000 (that is 199 MILLION) google hits. Nobody can wade through that!

Blaming someone for not knowing they (OoA) were in trouble in 2002 is just not kosher. I've known you for years, but I do NOT agree with you at all on this one.

Look at it from the clients' side fairly for just a minute and I think you will agree.

Got it, thanks. I sent you a PM

[/QUOTE]

I, unfortunately, joined SCI before I found out it was supporting the effort to return all the white-owned property in RSA to the black majority. I won't renew.
Dave[/QUOTE]

Well that's Bullshit. Where did you pull that one out of?[/QUOTE]

I was going to question this. As a member of SCI, I read most of what comes across my desk. So far I haven't seen all that much I don't agree with. It seems there are some who make stuff up.

As to the Out Of Africa thing, I have no idea whether or not someone on SCI's board has torpedoed any investigations or deep sixed formal complaints. I do know that when I emailed them to ask why they were auctioning off trips from Out Of Africa when there were questions raised about their conduct and their ethics, I was told that there was no evidence they had done anything wrong. I have been posting on this and other boards for some time and have enough suspicion that I won't bid on anything, ANYTHING, that has the name Out Of Africa attached to it, but there are a whole bunch of folks out there who haven't heard anything anywhere about them.

I will check into this at the SCI convention in Reno this year. If they still offer hunts donated by this outfit, I might be inclined to agree with those who at present appear to be conspiracy buffs with an axe to grind. Until then, and until I know for a fact that my organization is corrupt, I refuse to buy into the rumor and innuendo.

I did a quick search of SCI's website and found that Out Of Africa Adventurous Safaris is one of their "ranked" exhibitors. I also searched for Safaris donated by them and came up empty. Finally, I searched for hunts in Zimbabwe, since this seems to be one of the major bones of contention, and found nothing donated by Out Of Africa Adventurous Safaris. Of course the auction schedule and list of donations is not complete yet. If you find that SCI has accepted a donation and will auction it off in Reno, please email me with a link to that item and I will check it out.

George

I don't know much about any conspiracy--but there is a money trail between them. OAAS is a very large hunt donator--read this as lots of cash generated for SCI-- also, some of the head honchos have gone on hunts with them(freebees??? -illegal hunts???) Always follow the money trail. As far as the complaint I filed, I called them inquiring about the ethics meeting in which my complaint was supposed to be reviewed. They wouldn't give me any info (D.C. office). I offered to send additional documentation on the matter. I was told, "We don't need anything further from you". I asked what was going to be done. I was told, " The case was discussed and it might come up again at some future meeting". Conspiracy, --not-- it is likely fact that the SCI is joined at the hip with large donators--some may be good outfitters--some certainly are crooks. Either way, SCI is acting as enablers. I do know that the SCI is very nervous about our complaint because we got the documentation to file legal charges. What will SCI do then? I think they will run for cover! Are they worried about OAAS being exposed? --any dirt of SCI might be exposed as collateral damage? The next shoe is about to drop. This story will get bigger. To bad

quickshot,

WE all wish you the best of luck in recovering your money.

As to SCI' behavior on this matter, a lot of us KNOW they have been avoiding dealing with it. Probably hoping it will just go away.

There is no question about this in my mind whatsoever!

A crying shame for an orgenization that claims to have the interest of the hunter at heart!

Quickshot,

It is good you have a written contract and written evidence of what was offered and your written accounts of what actually happened. Imagine it if you just relied on blind trust! Absolutely useless for any follow up.

Surely if complaints have been filed with the SCI in the past and if there is evidence of this, but nothing reasonable was done in the past, and if nothing reasonable is done on your complaint, then the SCI itself and maybe its officers in many peoples opinion (certainly my opinion) is complicit and damages and action could be sought from them as well.

As in my PM to you, good luck and hope your actions provides some compensation and satisfaction for you. And hopefully future potential clients as well.

Don_G,

if you search Google on "Out of Africa Safaris" including quotation marks you get a different result. The exact search critieria can make a big difference which can of course result in the poor researcher getting way too much info or none at all.


***

As for the last SCI convention. I talked to an outfitter that was situated very near the OOAS stand and they had the impression the OOAS guys were OK, certainly their stand was well visited. They also had no idea what OOAS was alledgedly up to. So with the SCI's "ranked" endorsements it is quite easy to see some guys getting sucked in. And ANY outfitter can find or manufacture (I am not specifically claiming this with OOAS) good references. The reference can be a friend, another agent, a business associate, someone who got a 'promotional' freebie. Certainly I have received references like this myself from outfitters/agents.

As many of you know I have no love of OOA. I also have problems with the way SCI handles much of what comes before the ethics committee even though one of my good friends is on said committee. He is very tight lipped and will not discuss anything he feels is a violation of trust. I can tell you that this gentleman at least takes his job seriously. None the less a lot of what goes on tends to upset me greatly. This gets into splitting legal hairs in many cases and whether you or I agree it comes down to interpretation of wether it is an ethics violation or a falure to fullfill a contractual obligation. Personally, I dont see any difference, especially when I think there is an intent to defraud. However, one has to prove that intent. If everything is as stated this may be the first time someone can actually prove something. Regardless of what you feel or what you think you know, proving it is a different matter. I do agree with Mickey's statement. I believe that the ethics committee should be fully autonomous and not answer to the current regime on matters of an investigation. It should not be able to be used as a political football. LEt us hope this turns out right for the good of all. Unfortunately, no matter what happens right or wrong with OOA it will not rectify what is going on in Zim.
I am glad to see these gentleman taking a stand. As to those who would say they should have known better, many people dont even know AR exits. Not everyone has the networking and contacts some of us do. You can check references but they are only as good as the people you get them from.
Alan, thanks for keeping us posted on this.

Quickshot,
I wish you good luck. You have guts. People like you helps to rid the hunting industry of the dirt.

I certainly hope something possitive will come out of your actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
George S,

"Out of Africa" returns 199,000,000 (that is 199 MILLION) google hits. Nobody can wade through that!

Blaming someone for not knowing they (OoA) were in trouble in 2002 is just not kosher. I've known you for years, but I do NOT agree with you at all on this one.

Look at it from the clients' side fairly for just a minute and I think you will agree.

Don_G,

A Google search of the full name "Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris" returns only 213 hits, but I couldn't tell you how many it might have returned in 2004.

I am not blaming them for getting screwed, as that was purely OoAS' doing. Perhaps it's just that we here on AR are so aware of what's going on in the safari industry (from the client, booking agent, outfitter, and on occasion, the PH sides), that it astounds me that 'the word' still doesn't reach some people.

I hereby apologize to Messrs. Nave and Anczak for calling them fools for booking with OoAS. Go get 'em, guys!

George

Any memeber of the SCI Board can ask any member of the ethics Committee if their is an ongoing case about anyone. If their are any BoD members here all they have todo is ask about a case involving OoA. They will be given a yes or a no.

If my info is correct and their are or have been 23 complaints filed than they will tell you. If they have been 'lost or buried' you will know that also.

Put pressure on your Chpt. Presidents and Regional Reps to find out for you.

I read the original post a couple times and have some comments.
First, I've never hunted for D.G. with OoA. I have hunted Plains Game in R.S.A. with them. That hunt was professionally run and we had no complaints about it. The D.G. hunts may be a different story.
I have a question or two.
What does OoA making donations to the NRA, DU, RMEF etc. have to do with a hunt in Africa? If I'm a member of one of the named organizations I'm an "enabler?"

"6 people dragging an Impala?". I doubt that would cause any more of a problem than 2 to 4 people following the PH and hunter when on the ground hunting.

I always disregard any derogatory comments made by any Agent, Outfitter or PH in regards to any of the other hunting businesses. They have a "dog in the fight", and MAY be a bit biased.

I guess we will just have to wait for the wash to come out, to find out if they violated any laws or not.