The other day day I watched "Tracks Across Africa with Ivan Carter" and normally I enjoy the show that often focuses on Elephant Hunting. But this last episode really bothered me. The Hunter shoots an Elephant cow, it falls but doesnot die. They had to wait several minutes while the others in the herd literally scream and are clearly trying to lift their dying friend to its feet. Perhaps Iam getting old but this really bothered me and I have hunted Elephant and Buff myself. These ARE sentient beings and I realized that this was very sad indeed. Perhaps since they live in a Matriarcal society where the herd depends on the older females and their memory of both when and where to find food and water,shouldn't be shot Tusks or not. It is very unlikely I will ever shoot another Tuskless Cow.

Chris: I saw the episode, & I must admit that it did seem a little sad. Now I know that these things happen occasionally when we hunt, & I'm not saying anything was done wrong, but I, also, may be getting a little soft as I grow older. I love to watch Ivan guide the elephant hunts, & hope to hunt with him in the future. I think what I took away from this show was we owe it to our quarry to practice with our rifles as much as possible & shoot straight when we hunt so we can humanely harvest the animals we go after. That being said, I'm sure all on this show did their best to do just that. But sometimes I wonder how much longer I'll be able to take game & not let it bother me - I suppose I really am getting old & soft.

Well said Frank

Guys, it's not that you're getting old and soft! All hunters worth their salt hate to see animals suffer. Seems counter intuitive, but we love the animals we pursue. But I think you guys may be forgetting the larger picture of the cycle of life and death and the fact that death is usually disturbing to watch. This is what the anti's get hung up on!

I saw the episode you guys are talking about as well and I really didn't see anything done wrong. The cow moved as the hunter fired which probably caused the shot to go a bit wide, but still knocked her down. I don't know about this sentient concept however as I have seen a group of hogs literally tear up the brush looking for me after a big sow squealed when I shot her with an arrow. Seems like the same reaction to me.

I think we have to remember that life is a cycle. The cycle ends with death. No animal escapes this fate, regardless of intelligence level. With that said, we as human hunters, the top predator, when conducting ourselves properly, selectively remove excess animals from the herd and thereby provide benefit for the species as a whole. We need to remember the larger picture here. I just don't see a scenario where not hunting the elephant will generate a more positive outcome for the species in the long run!

The elephant population of most Sub-Saharan African countries are grossly over populated. That population control WILL be managed in one form or another over time. Either through conservation minded hunting, culling, or die off from starvation and disease. Maybe all three! But the overpopulation condition can only be sustained for finite periods until some form of control adequately adjusts the numbers to sustainable levels. My point being that a less than perfect brain shot is certainly not ideal and possibly distressing to watch, but how much more distressing would it be to watch an entire family unit be culled or die of starvation? In addition, neither of those latter options generate any funds to be re-invested in conservation of the species.

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Guys, it's not that you're getting old and soft! All hunters worth their salt hate to see animals suffer. Seems counter intuitive, but we love the animals we pursue. But I think you guys may be forgetting the larger picture of the cycle of life and death and the fact that death is usually disturbing to watch.

Could not have said it better myself.

I don't know about anyone else but after the game has fallen I always have a moment of sadness - sometimes more than a moment for reasons most hunters understand and have experienced themselves. One of the reasons I enjoyed my most recent safari was that Karl Stumpfe, our PH, gave us some time alone with our game to reflect on such things.

One other point I think worth mentioning and applauding Ivan and crew for is that this particular scene WAS shown.
Why?
We often criticize the sanitization of hunting and the perfect shots that never miss, never wound and always drop the game on the spot. This is hunting and things don't always go as cleanly as we would like.

No, I don't think anyone is getting soft - to me, it simply means that such scenes remind us of the difference between hunters and shooters; between people taking the life of a game animal vs. getting a trophy; between me and the antihunters who would rather see a species disappear for any reason than be preserved and conserved by the value hunting places on said species.

Maybe just part of the "new" tracks?? Sleeping Lion now this. I will never consider hunting elephant, not because of this show, just me I guess? All those that do is OK by me, just not my cup of tea.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I have an elephant hunt scheduled with Karl in May 2013. I'm really looking forward to that hunt. Also, a good point that we as hunters are actually great conservationists.

One way to keep that from happening is to take a heart/lung shot. At the shot she will run off 50 to 100 yards taking the herd with her. When she falls the herd will usually continue on. Less muss and fuss and a much lower chance of being charged by another cow.

465H&H

If or when, a hunter has absolutely no feelings of remorse, for the lack of a better word, when killing anything, does not matter the species, it is time for them to re-evaluate why they are hunting.

Humans have been given the power of God. We can decide whether an animal lives or dies. Unlike the lion/leopard/wolf or other NATURAL predator, we do not have to kill to survive.

We have to respect the animals we hunt and we have to respect the fact that the decision to make a kill is an individual dfecision.

I did not see the show in question, and I have never hunted in Africa, but, I have hunted enough to know that things do not always go perfect and the more a person hunts and shoots at game, the greater the chance for things to go wobbly.

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Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
These ARE sentient beings ....

Where have I heard that before???

Do the elephants practice a mourning period or write poetry about their experience??

I took my first and last elephant in Moz 2 years ago. Very exciting hunt, very lackluster kill. Brain shot, done and down. I have realized that I left part of my soul with that cow. Only good to come of it for me was feeding the nearest village for a bit. No more elephant for me.

Of the people who responded....only one jerk NOT BAD

Didn't see the show but would probably have felt the same way about it. Nothing wrong with however you feel, but you shouldn't necessarily have to indurate yourself to killing or scenes such as that just so you can participate because then it becomes merely mechanical.

I have no desire to hunt tuskless or cows whatsoever. Only an old, old bull who is on his last set of teeth, whose dung is mostly straw, whose temples and hips are sunken and who no longer, because of ability or desire, tries to keep up with the younger bulls who occasionally visit him. He lives mostly in solitude and when he falls he will have taken the better part of five decades with him. In other words, I'll likely never hunt elephant at all. To hell with anyone else, feel the way you do and make no apology for it.

Thanks, Chris, for posting one of the most thought provoking threads I've read in many months. The degree of introspection and honesty revealed by most who have posted here is impressive.

When I shot my tuskless cow I found myself facing complex emotions I had never experienced following any other hunt. It really drove home our obligation - our ethical imperative - to minimize the suffering of any sentient being we hunt. There is no doubt as to the essential need for conservation through hunting; however, when the animal we hunt is as highly developed and socially sophisticated a creature as the elephant, that ethical imperative is particularly important.

Thank You Kim.... I too experienced the same complex emotions and you articulated it the way I wish I had !! And thanks as well to most all the others who responded you truely showed the Heart of the Hunter and that we are all of a Fraternity we should take pride in..... always

I agree with you. I love hunting but sometimes the joy of hunting is overcasted by sadness about the kill. Nobody wants to see an animal suffer.

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Originally posted by BaxterB:
I'll likely never hunt elephant at all. To hell with anyone else, feel the way you do and make no apology for it.

Very thought-provoking posts.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
If or when, a hunter has absolutely no feelings of remorse, for the lack of a better word, when killing anything, does not matter the species, it is time for them to re-evaluate why they are hunting.

My feelings exactly. There's a huge difference between hunters and killers.

Dear Mr. Nelson:

I learned something at age 14; I don't hunt with killers, only hunters.

Also, since deer don't die quickly enough with an arrow stuck in them, I don't bow hunt either.

You're on the right path philosophically in my opinion.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris,

I think your sentiment describes exactly the difference between hunters and killers. Even the most primitive of human beings honored their kill and the spirit of the animal.

As far as elephants go I look upon such a hunt as a very special privilege for several reasons; one of which because of what they are and another, because the death of one feeds the many. And not just people, too many elephants take habitat away from many other species of wildlife. This is something very clear to one when hunting the elephant.

I watched that episode last night and though the one shot was off I felt the program and the way it was presented was outstanding. Nearly all shots were taken very closely and the animals were carefully selected. Ivan discussed the various aspects for hunting of cows both tusked and tuskless. I hunted my cow in Chewore and relished seeing it again on the program.

IMHO one of the better programs to be found on the tube these days. I think only the African hunting shows spend much time talking about how hunting benefits all involved. I know even Steve Scott does so with his program.

As a side note, when I shot my cow with Buzz, I was pretty overtaken and thought I sounded like a fool for the after hunt interview. My mind was really turned to mush over the whole event. Despite that, I would do it again and will, in time.

Interesting post Chris - especially for me, as I am hunting a tuskless for the first time, in less than 2 months.

Now you've got me worried!

Aaron,

One thing for those of us that hunt tuskless or cows to remember is that this hunt may be the one hunt that has the most important conservation benefits of any that we do. Most of these hunts are in Zimbabwe where elephant populations are way over carrying capacity. The amount of habitat conversion that they are causing is tremendous not to mention the crop damage they are causing to native populations. In addition, past ivory hunting has greatly increased the percentage of tuskless elephants in the various populations in many parts of Zimbabwe. The added revenue gained from these hunts also adds to the benefits from other hunts to conservation in Zimbabwe. You can rest easy as taking a tuskless cow is a good conservation act.

465H&H

My dog (Sam) caught a rabbit this weekend......the squealing sounds from the rabbit were horrifying while the dog was chomping down on while it was still alive. My other dog (Jack) jealous of the fun Sam was having with the rabbit proceeded to play tug-of -war.


They ripped the sentient being to pieces.

I had the same thoughts while watching the show.

The other thing I noticed is that Ivan must have been pretty confident in these guys, or hunted with them before, as he never even raised his double to provide the back up when the cows were bearing down.

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Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I took my first and last elephant in Moz 2 years ago. Very exciting hunt, very lackluster kill. Brain shot, done and down. I have realized that I left part of my soul with that cow. Only good to come of it for me was feeding the nearest village for a bit. No more elephant for me.

That's exactly the reason I'm not interested in hunting elephant. However, I have no criticism for those who do.

I saw the Tracks Across Africa episode at subject yesterday, and I have to say that I have some appreciation for the producers showing the actual situation, presumably unvarnished by clever editing. Hunting shows should show the "bad" along with the good. We all know that there are sometimes screw-ups, shots gone awry, and unintended consequences. More hunting shows should chronicle the less-than-perfect so that we can better appreciate, for good and for bad, the real world consequences of our activities.

Soooo:
Stop "commercial" "sport" hunting of elephants except maybe old bulls.

Result:
Population increase.

Culling by "professionals" with FAL's loaded with 220gr 30cal solids slaughtering whole herds.

OR

Lack of money for game management (example Kenya in case you've been living under a rock for the last 40 years) equals uncontrolable poaching funded by Chinese desire for anything ivory.

Complete lack of tolerance by locals of elephants now destroying their crops equals snares, foot traps, MORE poaching and all kinds of dead, dying and maimed elephants that will die far more horrid, tramatic deaths than anything inflicted upon them by any Ivan Carter's clients.

End result:
No elephants. PERIOD. End of species in what, maybe 50 year?

But of course that's OK with some people. I refer you to the animal rights jackasses and the whole sh*t strom over "endangered" animals being hunting in Texas.

We do not live in a "NATURAL WORLD" any more. Humans control or intrude into everything, everywhere, to believe otherwise is fantasy. Controled, rational, scientific interfearance is proferable to random sh*t storms of chaos resulting from irrational fantasy being put into practice. (ie wolves in YNP)

Your not going to hunt elephants. Fine. SO, are you writing a check to the Namibian wildlfe agency in the amount of the "not hunting elephants" trophy fee so they can fund their anti-poaching efforts?

There are unintended or potentialy unpleasant consequences to everything humans do. If you object don't do it. BUT STFU because you are doing nothing but helping the jackasses win and the wildflife loose.

I too, have found myself retrospecting more about killing as I hunt. Comes with age I believe. I prefer an animal I shoot to run off 50-100yards and die. But it does not happen that way all the time.

I have not seen the footage yet, but will watch it with a different perspective.

quote:

Also, since deer don't die quickly enough with an arrow stuck in them, I don't bow hunt either.

Chris, As much as I like most of your viewpoints, that statement is 100% incorrect. A sharp broadhead through the vitals kills just as quickly as any bullet, and with a whole lot less disturbance. I have observed numerous instances of a deer flinching at the shot and just wondering what happened as an arrow zipped through the vitals. I have actually had some go back to browsing, rutting, and even walking away calmly. 5-15 seconds later they tip over, never knowing what really happened. But as not to get off topic, I will not go into detail on my thoughts and theories on that. If you would like to discuss this more, shoot me a PM.

quote:

Chris, As much as I like most of your viewpoints, that statement is 100% incorrect. A sharp broadhead through the vitals kills just as quickly as any bullet, and with a whole lot less disturbance. I have observed numerous instances of a deer flinching at the shot and just wondering what happened as an arrow zipped through the vitals. I have actually had some go back to browsing, rutting, and even walking away calmly. 5-15 seconds later they tip over, never knowing what really happened. But as not to get off topic, I will not go into detail on my thoughts and theories on that. If you would like to discuss this more, shoot me a PM.

My experience as well.

Interesting topic.

My elephant experience is one tuskless. This is what I wrote after the hunt.

After it was over I had a strange feeling, not of remorse or guilt but maybe humbled a little by the experience. I was not ashamed but had no desire to sit on her for hero pictures. Do not misunderstand, I was excited and proud but in a reserved sort of way.

That being said I am hunting trophy bull in 2013 and will hunt tuskless again and again. It is something I enjoy, it is legal, it is appreciated by the local population, and is good for the overall conservation of elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Humans have been given the power of God. We can decide whether an animal lives or dies. Unlike the lion/leopard/wolf or other NATURAL predator, we do not have to kill to survive.

I must respectfully disagree.

We do have to kill to survive. Most of us just have all our killing done by our commercial rancher, farmer and fisherman proxies.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Interesting topic.

My elephant experience is one tuskless. This is what I wrote after the hunt.

After it was over I had a strange feeling, not of remorse or guilt but maybe humbled a little by the experience. I was not ashamed but had no desire to sit on her for hero pictures. Do not misunderstand, I was excited and proud but in a reserved sort of way.

That being said I am hunting trophy bull in 2013 and will hunt tuskless again and again. It is something I enjoy, it is legal, it is appreciated by the local population, and is good for the overall conservation of elephants.

Agree 100% Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I had the same thoughts while watching the show.

The other thing I noticed is that Ivan must have been pretty confident in these guys, or hunted with them before, as he never even raised his double to provide the back up when the cows were bearing down.

Absolutely! I had to watch it a few times in slow motion because it seemed so amazing to me in real-time. You are right, Ivan never lifted his rifle from his shoulder.

As Todd pointed out, the cow appeared to move just as he was shooting and that was caused the errant brain shot and not a lack of skill or practice as someone else implied. Given the shots these two made on other elephants on the same episode, I dont think lack for skill or sand.

For my two cents, I think the desire to take an ele with a brain shot as opposed to a heart/lung shows the desire of both the hunter and PH to minimize (read: eliminate) pain for the ele. The occasional down-side, as demonstrated in this episode, is missing. But given the closer proximity, and the fact that even a slightly errant brain shot frequently knocks the ele down, doesnt this lend itself to a more "humane" follow-up than a heart/lung?

when the time comes that i don't feel remorse about killing, i will cease to hunt

elephant are not sentient beings.

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Originally posted by ggruber:
elephant are not sentient beings.

Of course they are.

quote:

Of course they are.

Yes, in the broadest sence of the word. Are you saying that they are anthropopathic in their thought processes?

As such are we to conclude that elephants are conscious of their own mortality? Or the impending mortality of others, in their group, or of other creatures around them?

If so, why don't they put more effort into avoiding death? Why do they exhibit behaviors that are instinctive or purely reactive rather than exclucively learned or experience based when those animalistic responces are self distructive and could be avoided based on the opportunity for learned behaviors while observing others of their group that made the same mistake in their presence?

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:


...are we to conclude that elephants are conscious of their own mortality? Or the impending mortality of others, in their group, or of other creatures around them?

If so, why don't they put more effort into avoiding death? Why do they exhibit behaviors that are instinctive or purely reactive rather than exclucively learned or experience based when those animalistic responces are self distructive and could be avoided based on the opportunity for learned behaviors while observing others of their group that made the same mistake in their presence?

If this is how we are to define "sentience", then the vast majority of human beings fail the test.

quote:

If this is how we are to define "sentience", then the vast majority of human beings fail the test.

Beautiful. Pathic. Horribily true. Terrifying.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Interesting topic.

My elephant experience is one tuskless. This is what I wrote after the hunt.

After it was over I had a strange feeling, not of remorse or guilt but maybe humbled a little by the experience. I was not ashamed but had no desire to sit on her for hero pictures. Do not misunderstand, I was excited and proud but in a reserved sort of way.

That being said I am hunting trophy bull in 2013 and will hunt tuskless again and again. It is something I enjoy, it is legal, it is appreciated by the local population, and is good for the overall conservation of elephants.

Mike: We have both said it before, but I am certain that we would get along famously in a safari camp. Can't wait to make it happen. I felt the same about my elephant. It's just different.

I have been fortunate to harvest 2 bull elephants. I have considered it a privilege to have hunted them. After the shot and the excitement you walk up to an animal who is as old or older them you. To me it was an emotional time.

Mike