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I killed my first Elephant bull more than a dozen years ago. I killed my last Elephant cow this past September. I will kill my next Elephant cow this coming August. There is no hunting like Elephant hunting. I have never felt "bad" after killing an Elephant - other than physical exhaustion and dehydration. If other people don't want to hunt Elephant that's just fine. But I don't allow anyone to tell me I cannot hunt Elephant. Many posters in this thread sound like they are suffering from a severe case of the "Bambi Syndrome", i.e, applying/attributing human traits to animals.  You're hunters. Get a grip!  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Baloney. So hunters do not feel sadness, do not feel compassion for the animals they hunt, should not feel anything other than elation at the death of an animal? This concept of questioning what we do as hunters is not new and it is not only for 'sport' hunters such as most of us. If you read about the old hunters, Finch-Hatton, Blixen, Bell and many others, they also deliberately slowed their hunting down, preferring photography and the challenges it presented versus the relative ease of shooting game with rifles. Most of them still hunted to make a living, so, like most of us, still supported the activity, but their own personal paths led to less and less take. Finch-Hatton knew what the commercial safari would do to the African animals and worked very hard to make sure conservation efforts were considered versus the out and out killing of game simply for sporting sake. This wasn't done by accident, I believe- and this is my personal opinion about FInch-Hatton as well as others- that exposure to elephant especially, gave them an insight to the elephant that the sport hunter never got to see and after years and years of seeing this, the passion for the kill was superseded by the simple thrill of proximity. That is just my take on it. I think that is also what made them superior hunters of elephant (much like Ivan Carter and others). | |||
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Difference between Hunters and Killers...2 posts up be the definition of "killer" | |||
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I think what we're seeing here is not necessarily "hunters" versus "killers" as opposed to recognizing those that hold more empathy for the so-called charasmatic species such as elephant. For example, the same guy that won't think twice about cracking a shark over the head with a bat in the boat may lose his lunch upon reeling in a floundering porpoise. I shoot lots of ducks every season - I prefer them to be dead when the dog retreives them as opposed to having to dispatch them by hand. Does that really make me more of a "hunter" and less of a killer? I don't like seeing anything in unnecessary pain. But seriously? I am firing hundreds of little steel balls at hovering birds at 25 yards .... I'm trying to kill them, fellas. A hunter is by nature a killer (unless you're using a camera or a dart gun). Don't kid yourselves. But there is certainly nothing wrong with appreciating the quarry, I certainly do. And Baxter, for every Finch-Hatton, I suspect you'll find a Selous, who only stopped killing stuff due to his untimely demise. | |||
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The other guys didn't stop hunting altogether, they changed the nature of their pursuit, however. Selous was keenly interested in conservation as evidence by the fact so many of his animals were for collections. The word 'conservationist' is so attached to Selous one would think it an ordained title. The point of bringing up the old guys was simply to illustrate the fact that a malleable attitude toward killing, or how one views animals is not new, nor bad, nor indicative of weakness as some may imply. | |||
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Is it coincidence that their shift in attitude occurred about the same time old age and physical infirmities began to take their toll, happened shortly after they had made their own small, or not so small fortune and were financially set for life? We look at the great robber barons of the 1870-1970 era who turned out to be such great philanthropists in their old age. Leland Stanford, the Rockefellers, the bootlegger whose son became president; the list goes on. Being wealthy has such a soothing effect on the savage psyche. Selous shifted from Ivory hunting/poaching to "collecting." It allowed him to continue killing, just cloaked it in a veneer of altruism. | |||
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I really don't think that is fair. Elephants effect everyone differently. I am the type that is very somber in my trophy photos. A smile is very, very rare. Someone here on AR once commented that I looked like I was attending a funeral in all my trophy photos.... I respect everything I hunt and I have felt a profound sense of melancholy following several kills(killing a pregnant gemsbok was my lowest point). Oddly though, my elephant did not bother my conscience a bit. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Not for FInch-Hatton or Blixen. Denys died in his 40's and Blixen right at 60 but he left Africa in 1938 when he was right at 52. I bring up these two guys as they were instrumental in what we call 'safari' hunting these days. They were just past the 'adventurer-hunter', those who blazed the trails, and right at the beginning of the 'commercial' safari age. Blix is the one who started the Safari company with Philip Percival and we all know who he was. Denys and Blixen were as close to skill and interests as two could be. They both were with the Prince of Wales on his hunt, and I believe it was Finch-Hatton who recommended Blixen as a PH because the Prince was after lion and as we know, Blixen killed many, many lions. Rich, I think your comment on Selous cheapens his achievements. Did he need to cloak anything? Nope. So why would he? He spent his youth learning about the animals and birds of Africa, he would sleep on his wood floor to prepare himself to sleeping in the bush with no bed. They guy ate and breathed and LOVED animals and Africa, killing was not his motivation. In Bartle Bull's book SAFARI, there is a quote from Selous where he says, " I never killed an animal for mere sport." If you have an argument with that, you'll have to take it up with Selous. | |||
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[/QUOTE] The other guys didn't stop hunting altogether, they changed the nature of their pursuit, however. Selous was keenly interested in conservation as evidence by the fact so many of his animals were for collections. The word 'conservationist' is so attached to Selous one would think it an ordained title. The point of bringing up the old guys was simply to illustrate the fact that a malleable attitude toward killing, or how one views animals is not new, nor bad, nor indicative of weakness as some may imply.[/QUOTE] I see Selous as much more of a naturalist than a conservationist, but I suppose for his time, he was both. Nevertheless, I don't think there is any basis for presuming Selous slowed or stopped shooting elephants for any reason other than it became too much work and not enough money, much less because they made him all misty eyed. Also, for the record, I'm not implying anything about weakness or otherwise. | |||
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Wasn't referring to you re: implication, no need to clear the record. I respect your opinion on Selous. I know he, like many later, was concerned about traveling hunters and how they would affect the animals. I'll have to see if I can find in my books what I am remembering but I'm not near them now. | |||
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Whilst trawling you tube I came across this clip: Clip The PH is Buzz, but the client didn't seem to have much of an idea, he didn't reload immediately after firing both barrels and only had a couple of spare rounds to hand. Not everything goes to plan whilst hunting and I hope on my first ele hunt next year that I can put the animal down with one shot as I like many hunters hate to see animals suffer. | |||
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Thought it was a good episode... Don't know why finishers weren't fired right away but I'm sure they had reason... Killing game is a big part of hunting...it isn't always pretty...sometime things go wrong...the hunter needs to remedy that as quickly as possible... I'm not knocking others who feel "sad" in certain circumstances on a hunt....it's that I just don't right now... I do feel a sense of respect and reverence for an animal I take down...not sad or tearful...it's a combination of a moment of silence at a funeral combined with an emotional rush or surge... I have a close friend in his sixties that has hunted hard his whole life and has told me that the killing part of hunting has become harder for him...he actually says an Native American prayer when ever he kills something.... I'm ok with that...but it's not for me...I'm not ok with people whom show no regard for a life taken or act without reverence is some respect...and no animal should have to suffer for someone’s ego... There is some emotion attached to the taking of a life...high or low...good or bad...but I don't believe any one who tries to come off as a cold blooded, emotionless, killer type either...people like that don't hunt animals... Death is a mater of perspective and it's a little different for everyone...having battled terminal illness at a young age my perspective may be a little different than those who haven't...Death comes for us all...and not always in a way that we'd like... On the flip side of taking a life when hunting…if I were to be killed while hunting elephant or buff I wouldn't be sad one bit...Dying on my feet doing what I love beats dying in a hospital bed pissing all over myself... ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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Anyone who thinks that a brain shot on elephant is easy needs to see this video. I believe at least five or six shots were taken at the brain and only the last one killed it. Buzz has shot a lot of elephants and is a professional in every sense of the word but he still missed the brain twice although his second was either close enough or hit a non-lethal part and did knock it down. 465H&H | |||
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people , let me say that the hunting of an elephant far outweighs the killing of one -- one thing that i will often do is right after the kill , me and my trackers will back off and leave a guy with his trophy , just half an hour , we sit and its all amazingly quiet , everyone in their thoughts , no doubt the trackers are quiet ,certainly the cameraman usually quiet and i for one dont want to talk to anyone - often when we approach the guy and his aninal its evident he has also experienced the same deep emotion - a bit of background , oftentimes if the bherd is still very close they will come straight in to the sound of another shot and in this instance we had a twofold issue , 1/ impossible to get a clean killshot in without the danger of possibly wounding another animal with a passthrough and 2/ the danger of a second shot provoking a charge - our goal is to show hunting as it is - this was as it was - i am getting softer and after 20+ years of elephant hunting i prefer to stick to bulls mainly - for many of the same reasons people have spoken about here - i still feel its a very exciting hunt , i understand the necessity of it and i think its a great opportunity for people to experience an elephant hunt - as mentioned in the post right above this , the brain is not always reached and when its missed it is a less than ideal scenario - "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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Well said Ivan. | |||
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No normal hunter wants to see their prey suffer. The unfortunate reality is that prey does suffer from time to time. With elephants, it is a bit more apparent. I saw the show. I was fine with it. Do i wish the elephant was stone dead before it hit the ground? Yes. I will bet the client was the same. It isn't like he intentionally tortured it. | |||
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You are wrong as can be with that statement, as a species we do not have to kill, unless you consider harvesting vegetables as murder. Do You? We do not as Individuals have to kill anything. Buying a steak in a store has nothing what so ever to do going into the field and hunting something. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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BaxterB - This is for you as well.  Are you one of those who can't be honest about what you do when you hunt? Do you use words like take, collect, whack, cull, etc. to describe your act of killing an animal. Man up! If you don't want to kill an animal then hunt with a camera and I'll not have an issue with you, but don't try to convince yourself or others that you are not killing when that is exactly what you are doing. Being judgmental about others you don't know can be rather dicy and says more about you than those whom you attempt to judge. I made a knowing decision in RVN some 46 years ago to avoid semantics to describe what I was doing. We hunted the VC and NVA and when we found them we killed them, before they could kill us. When I hunt anything with a firearm it is to kill it, pure and simple. Doesn't mean I don't love the animal, for that is a part of why I hunt them. If you truly have an interest in what killing means, which I doubt, read the book "ON KILLING: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. He is also the author of the article "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs" which you can find and read at: http://startthinkingright.word...gs-by-dave-grossman/ You might learn something about me and those like me, and perhaps something about yourself. BTW, I've been a Sheepdog since 1965 and will be there when needed. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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 JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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I do not feel sad after I kill I do not get shakes and adrenalin rush like some I guess I must be an evil killer not meeting the standards of the true hunters. Just because someone is different from you dosn't make you better or more moral than them | |||
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i guess this same debate has raged for centuries , heres a favourite quote of mine ! if it wasnt a discussion in those days this quote would not exist ! I urge our young men, therefore, not to despise hunting. For from this practice arise the qualities that make good warriors, thinkers, students and men of action. Hunting accustoms men to getting up early and enduring heat and cold. It trains them in walking long distances and running. It strenghtens the character. So all the qualities of the warrior are already found in the hunter. Xenophon 430 BC from his book Cynegeticus "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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As it always has in nature. Watch a pack of wild dogs eat an impala, or cheetah cubs mauling a gazelle. The sight of the elephants pales in comparison to most acts of nature. Elephants may have many more socialized habits that us humans find it easy to attach ourselves to, but at the end of the day they are animals. They have enough brain to make us think twice, but at the end of the day they are no more human than any other creature. The sum total of their will to live and move forward is based on daily survival instinct and nothing more. In short, Elephants and other creatures are a product of their surroundings. Humans on the other hand are a product of their thoughts. | |||
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By the way, I hope you read Ivan carter's post above, if not, I'll re-post the part that is exactly what my posts have been about all along. His words echo those of the great hunters (Sans Selous in deference to tygersman) I spoke about before. Shall we expect a damning post from you to Ivan? i am getting softer and after 20+ years of elephant hunting i prefer to stick to bulls mainly - for many of the same reasons people have spoken about here - i still feel its a very exciting hunt , i understand the necessity of it and i think its a great opportunity for people to experience an elephant hunt - | |||
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BaxterB- There you go, making unsubstantiated suppositions again. I know Ivan and do business with his company. I respect him but do not agree 100% with everything he has to say, because I have experience and expertise different from his (and yours). I do not need time alone with my Elephants after I kill them, but don't begrudge those who do nor Ivan for his position. I doubt you will read Dave Grossman's article or book, but if you do, perhaps you will gain some understanding of people different from you. I have reached an age where I do not feel it necessary to respond to every internet aficionados challenge. Have a great life and sell a lot of books. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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You are right. I posted before, but am deleting it now. This is too good a topic to get sidetracked as we have gotten. Thanks for the well-wishes. | |||
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AHQ - A good way to say it, and well said! I love to hunt, because I love "the" hunt - not because I love to kill. I also think that a good hunter, becomes a good "killer", and there's nothing wrong with calling it, what it is. I too watched the episode in question, and I see the point of the OP. But I also think Ivan did what's really his TOP PRIORITY as a PH. Client/hunter safety above all else - including the downed elephant. | |||
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Too right, Aaron. For whatever reason, if a herd cow goes down wounded the dust-up is very serious and nothing to be fooled with. Backing off and waiting for the herd to push off is the only real course of action. Stand there and shoot at the downed pachyderm and you will get a charge from the rest of the herd, soonest they locate you, almost guaranteed. And then you, and all your hunting party, will be in the shit, for sure. This is not conjecture. Ask me how I know. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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LionHunter: On a rare thread where fellow hunters talk honestly about how they feel after killing the largest land mammal on earth, for whatever reason you have chosen to take their comments as an attack on both hunting in general and you in particular. Not one post that I've read attempts to dissuade others from hunting elephants - or any other animal for that matter - making your combative attitude puzzling. For example:
Here you build a straw man argument (e.g., someone ‘says’ that they no longer want to hunt; then someone kills animals but no longer believes that to be ‘killing’) and you go on to assail thoughtful guys like Chris and BaxterB – for positions they never made! No one has judged you from what I can tell, but that doesn't stop you from making judgments yourself. And then there’s your desperate need to tout your own masculinity. Yes, we get it: You like to kill and you look down on anyone who has an unmanly sense of sorrow when a hunt is over. Oh, add to that your disdain for any panty-waist who has the temerity to use a euphemism for killing. We should all 'man-up' and say things like, "I'm going to Africa to kill some plains game and maybe kill a buffalo. You know, killing animals is a strong conservation tool and I've been proudly killing creatures since I was kid. First started killing when I was six. Killing is a family tradition where I come from."
Uh oh, another ice-water-in-their-veins war hero intent on telling a veteran-heavy audience about their kill-or-be-killed combat exploits – only here through a tortured tie-in to hunting an elephant. I’ve got to hand it to you, you had to work hard on that one. Regarding your "knowing decision" about semantics 'back in the 'Nam', what was the alternative to your decision? Did you really experience soldiers who were squeamish about using the word 'kill' and instead talked about 'collecting' an NVA solider? or having 'culled' a VC? I suppose if they were in the Salvation Army … but in the US Army? Really? As for the tie-in, are animals then like an enemy in combat – requiring that they be ‘killed’ and not ‘collected’ or ‘culled’?
While I could fault you on once again being what you hate most – judgmental - you're forgiven as we all appreciate your guiding us to a book wherein we can learn more about you. Why just the other day I told my wife, "I really do wish I could learn more about LionHunter's inner psyche and philosophy on killing". No doubt Amazon will now see a spike in LTC Grossman's book. Look, we understand that you don’t much like guys like me feeling all weepy about killing some dumb pachyderm. We get that, too. But it’s unnecessary to manufacture fake arguments for the purpose of attacking fellow hunters just because you see them as a bunch of pussies. By the way, please know that we’ll all sleep better knowing that we have a remorseless 'killer sheepdog' standing watch over us, er, sheep. A grateful flock salutes you. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everyone could realize and respect that all of us that enjoy hunting do so for differing reasons and have different thoughts and beliefs on the process and our part in it and how we feel individually when the kill is made. Just because I or anyone else feels a moments remorse about killing an animal, does not mean we are suffering from Bambi-itis, nor does it keep us from making future kills. The fact that hunters seem for some unknown reason to be totally unable to respect each other and not find meaningless reasons to belittle and badmouth each other in a Public setting is something I simply can not understand. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Aaron, you must be a carpenter as you whacked that nail square on the head. The hunter who does not aspire to be the best killer he can be is not holding up his end of the bargain. | |||
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What was the famous quote "I do not hunt to kill but kill to have hunted?" Something to think about. 465H&H | |||
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You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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More often than not ... true. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Thanks Ivan, great show. I have not hunted elephant yet, but plan to soon. All thoughts, comments and opinions appreciated. | |||
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Don't do it. It is addictive!  | |||
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Dear Mike: Sometimes that has been my experience, but Columbia appears to be the worst at the moment. See what is presently in the White House. Oops, that's right, both Harvard and Columbia. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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 Good one, Chris! But very scary, yes?  Kim - Meant to have a smiley face after the Harvard Man comment, so here it is:  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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RE: The Eleven-Shot Elephant
All "true hunters" hate to see an animal suffer. But all shots are not true, and even if they are, the bullet may not remain true after impact. There is a way to reduce the chances of solids veering off course. The elephant in the clip above finally stayed down after the 11th shot (rear-quartering/side brain "in the ear hole") from a .458 Lott. First shot was a 470 NE frontal brain shot. And PH (Buzz) took a quick followup at a moving head, with his .416 Rigby, and the client got in his second with his 470 NE ... None of those three shots found the brain. Then the race was on to end it ... Was that first shot too low or off to the side? Or was it a squirrely round nose solid veering inside the head? The hunter was using nickel-cased ammo looking like Federal factory 470 NE loads: Woodleigh FMJ round nose solid, or Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer flat nose solid, with lead core base? There is a choice. Elephant brain shooting deserves a monometal copper or brass flat nose solid. Always. The hunter in that clip joked that he needed a "bigger gun." Maybe he just needed a better bullet loaded in his ammo, and maybe a smaller gun? I am not going to comment on his yanking the trigger, revealing a flinch, when the rifle is on safe just before that eleventh shot ... BTW, the ".375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012" reamers and gages were delivered today. A chicken in every pot, a .375-2012 in every true hunter's hands. | |||
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Looks too low, I paused it at the dirt poof and it went under the brain. 6 inches higher and the elephant would not have heard the shot. The way his feet curled up like an MMA fighter taking a leg kick from Mirko Cro-cop makes me think he was out or almost out form Buzz's shot. Then you see his legs loosen up and he starts to get up. What's the KO on a 416 again? | |||
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hunting IS all about killing. If it were not, you could make the stalk, shoot the animal with your camera, and walk away with the same sense of satisfaction that killing the animal gives you. The issue with post-Boddington TAA is that Craig could make each episode new and different and enjoyable to see. Ivan has not gotten to that state yet. He guides for $$$, and his approach must needs be a bit different. Rich | |||
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