Rifle magazine has had its last dollar from me. I am not going to support anyone that skims the line of ethics by promoting hunting with a minimum, if not illigel caliber. I don't know how many holes were in the Buff that Brian Pearce shot but their were several holes in his story. I should think any one with even moderate experience in the field would be able to see through the self promotion in that series by rifle magazine. I have seen a few posts here and elsewhere equating it to promoting poaching. That might be over the top but not by much.
The suspense is killing me, what the hell did that dude have to say? Is he quoting energy figures and quoting verbatim from whatisname's site? If it wasn't a 20 min drive to get a copy of the gunrag, I'd do it just to see what was being pushed this month.
"If it ain't from the mouths of the enlightened, then it must be an untruth." From an intellectual of some standing, or maybe handstanding. Not quite sure of his credentials.HI
Roger QSL
Posts: 4428 | Location: Queen Creek , Az. | Registered: 04 July 2000
Its going to really PISS ME OFF if I have to go buy the magazine just to see what the editor has to say. The out house is already stocked with the last tissue. Of course I could use it for fire starter
Caution Gentlemen Unlike our friends of the various fervent religions who burn the books and the library because there's something written that may alter, change, revise our perspective, lets give it a read and seek knowledge. Plus it's so undignified and vunerable having one's head stuck in the sand. Jim
Posts: 6173 | Location: Richmond, Virginia | Registered: 17 September 2000
Scovill is responding to an e-mail from "C.A.L." who notes that this been a hot issue on the Internet.
Basically he argues for distinctions between cartridges that work in normal "hunting" circumstances, vs. cartridges that work in worst-case "fighting" circumstances. On that basis there is "no comparison" between the .45-70 and the .458 Lott, .470 Nitro, etc.
Also suggests that kinetic energy, "K-O value" etc. are worthless in the discussion since "big heavy bullets usually perform all out of proportion to their paper numbers" and evaluating them by the same criteria as .30, .338, or .375 cartridges "will usually lead to nothing but frustration and/or self-inflicted psychosis." Sounds familiar.
Posts: 1246 | Location: Northern Virginia, USA | Registered: 02 June 2001
Since Scovill is queer for leveractions and just got back from worrying african animals with some black powder cartridge POS, I can imagine how objective he would be to such a discussion.
The problem is that gunwriters do a lot of damn-fool things so they have something to write about. Heaven forbid they have to get an honest job, like selling vinyl siding door to door.
I'm sure though that if some poor simpleton takes their stories as gospel, and gets hurt, they will be sure to shirk any responsability for it.
Joe.
Posts: 1372 | Location: USA | Registered: 18 June 2000
I just handled a Pedrosli(sp?) 45-70, opened up to 450 Nitro express. It's super accurate, cheap, and, is the standard by which all other african calibers are judged.
A 480 grain, Round nose, Kynoch loaded low pressure, 450 Nitro Express, at 2150 fps, is simply the standard by which all other african game cartridges are judged. Suffice to say, the rifle shoots, and, you want to stand in front of it?
s
Posts: 1805 | Location: American Athens, Greece | Registered: 24 November 2001
Quote: Since Scovill is queer for leveractions and just got back from worrying african animals with some black powder cartridge POS, I can imagine how objective he would be to such a discussion.
Most gunwriters pander to the masses to increase their readership and their magazine's circulation. Such as Boddington, who seems to have no opinion about anything and therefore writes empty-headed fluff articles. Scovill seems to have sold out to the current fashion of pretending the blackpowder cartridges are somehow magic. Isn't it funny that when the 30-30 was introduced in 1894, the shooting public ran like hell away from the 45-70? And now we are supposed to think the 45-70 is suddenly more powerful than a .458 lott.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
Given the quality and intellect of ownership, it would be a natural fit for ol' What's-His-Nuts to be made a moderator, if not an outright administrator.
He might even work his way up to a position with a rifle shooting-related magazine. He can play Cowboy In Africa along with a couple of the other honchos and fit right in!
Few of these blowhards ever hunt outside their state, let alone in Africa.
It's wishful thinking, fueled mostly by the stout recoil generated by heavy loads in a light rifle with bad stock design (for handling recoil), and liberally fertilized with sales claims and occasional first-person accounts.
Hardly worth bothering with anymore, is it?
George
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001
I see George's point alright, but I still subscibe to many of the major magazines, and I do read them all cover-to-cover, sorting out the nonsense (to the best of my ability!) along the way. Usually, there's a nugget or two to keep for all that panning.......
The only things he was definitive about were a) there are better DG rounds than the .45-70, and b) the .45-70 might be okay 95% of the time, but it was the OTHER 5% you had to worry about.
Hmmm, doesn't that sound eerily like what we've been saying all these years?
George
Posts: 14623 | Location: San Antonio, TX | Registered: 22 May 2001
I guess the question is,can the 45-70 kill Buff?Yes it can.So can alot of other cartridges as proven by the Pistol finaticts.I love my 45-70 but if I was going to Africa I think there are better choices for self defense and tried and proven killing power time after time.Just because it can doesn't make it the best choice. It's like pulling a big 5th wheel.The 350 Chevy can do it souped up but the .454 or Power Stroke Diesels do it with ease.It's the same thing. I myself would like to have the reserve power that some other calibers provide over the 45-70.
Just my opinion.Jayco.
Posts: 565 | Location: Central Idaho | Registered: 27 February 2004
Excerpts from the article written by Dave Scovill ("Mr. Lever Gun" himself):
(I have added some bold emphasis< !--color-->)
Quote: "I�m also reminded that there are hunting< !--color--> cartridges and fighting< !--color--> cartridges, the latter being those that are required to administer a one-shot stop in a fight< !--color--> that was started with a .375 H&H, for instance. So, while it may be possible to stop an enraged four-footed antagonist with a .45-70, the .458 Lott and .470 NE are superior tools for the job< !--color-->."
"It might also be claimed the .45-70 with a 500-grain solid would have stopped that bull as well, but it should be plainly obvious that if one is to error in cartridge selection for such work, it is best to error on the heavier side< !--color-->."
"So, it�s not adequate to address the problem of how cartridges might compare in normal hunting situations. It is only when the worst possible scenario is considered that the wheat is clearly separated from the chaff< !--color-->."
"The point of all this is that we could argue to the point of reductio ad absurdum as to whether or not the .45-70 is the equal of other, more established dangerous game cartridges. But it is important to keep in mind that the animal is only dangerous if the situation is screwed up or gets out of hand. So, let�s consider, hypothetically, if the bull Brian shot turned the other way and came back at them. All of a sudden, the tables have turned, and the animal becomes a serious threat. Would the .45-70 with a 400-grain solid at 1,800 fps be enough to stop the bull before it hooks a horn into someone?< !--color-->"
I believe his last statement is a rhetorical question. He never specifically answers his own question in the remainder of the article.
So, for all of the .45-70 big bore lever gun fans, I think Mr. Scovill has pretty well summed it up for you. And it's from some one squarely in the lever gun camp.
He also said Obviously, the performance evaluation has to include bullets, softnoses, solids or whatever, like the X-Bullet. If we restrict the dialogue to softnose bullets, the .45-70 with a 400-grain Kodiak or Hawk with a .050-inch jacket is probably acceptable for Cape buffalo, assuming proper bullet placement. That also applies to the .375 H&H with a Swift A-Frame or Nosler Partition. But, no matter how you cut it, a 500-grain, .458-inch bullet at 2,000 fps impact velocity delivers a tremendous blow, even on soft body shots. The same could be said of the .470 NE or the .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby or Remington Magnum. All assuming, of course, the bullet is up to the job at hand. ------------------------------------------------------------ I think as I said before there are better choices out there than the 45-70 for big critters.But there are those that don't realize the 45-70 is totally capable of launching a 400 grain Premium bullet at 2100+ fps out of a 24 inch barrel.That will get the attention of anything it hits I would think. Like you fella's I think there are way better choices but some tend to knock what the modern pumped up 45-70 can do.Now you can get Swift A-Frames-Kodiaks and Woodleighs in Heavy Jackets to do the job.In a pinch it would work I suppose.
Just my opinion.Jayco.
Posts: 565 | Location: Central Idaho | Registered: 27 February 2004
I think the article is a perfect example of why I would not waste six bucks on the rag. He doesn't really say much of any thing. He certainly never addresses the fact that the caliber has not legal where Brian Pearce shot his buff. He does exagerate even from the Pearce article...It never occured to me you might be able to strreeeeetchhh that story out any further. In Pearces article he claims to have shot the buff in the ass with Penetration to the guts. Now its streched with Penetration to the heart. I guess he was really aiming for the heart when he shot him in the friggen ass ! I do like his twist on the cape buff and how it is classified as "potentially" dangerous I can imagine how that conversation would have gone with dad if I shot a whitetail in the ass and tried to tell him I was aiming for the heart
The one thing I am still just puzzled about...and maybe it's just me....BUT if Pearce shot the buff in the ass and the bullet penetrated to the gut. How the sam hell did another bullet of the same configuration from the same gun Shoot through the bulls front shoulders, exit, hitting a cows front shoulders passing clean through and exiting the second buff ?????
Unless you count a shot in the front shoulders that never hit any bone.....And then there is the buff in the back of the truck in the Pearce article with a exit wound low in the guts. I think maybee they should change the name of their publication to the National Rifle enquirer.
Chuck-I can't speak for African game myself,but do you have more experience than Brian Pierce in Hunting or reloading?If so.I would like to hear it.I know there are lot's that do have more African experience than he does.But he is an Idaho boy born and raised hunting with very good knowledge of firearms and getting meat on the table. So he isn't the best at African game or writes what you don't agree with.He just wrote what he saw.Now I think I know he has more experience at shooting Elk than most.I for one have a bunch of that with my own experiences.The numbers are against the .270 but it works.
What's the problem?Know one agree's on everything other than the 45-70 can kill Buff.Not the best choice but it can do it.
Just my opinion.Jayco.
Posts: 565 | Location: Central Idaho | Registered: 27 February 2004
Well I guess any one that shoots his game in the Ass Is vASStly more experienced than I am Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. Really I miss your point. If he is more experienced that is even less of a excuse for such BS. Did you ever read the article ? I ask because I am wondering how reloading came into play. He used the Cor Bon penetrators. I can say I have never loaded bullets for Cor Bon and I have never shot a buff in the ass, or even a elk or a Deer. Their is no question and there NEVER has been that the 45-70 will kill a buff. Now if you want to tell me he shot one with a 45-70 and it penetrated through both shoulders, exited and penetrated through the shoulders of another buff well...... Some one better get glasses if he is just writing what he saw. In fact that's probably why he shot the thing in the ass.
I've never shot a buffalo in the ass and I don't pray to the 45-70 Gods. I could care less if Pearce or any one else does. Personally I wouldn't brag about a ass shot, or hunting with a gun that does not meet the legal requirements. If I had never shot a rifle in my life I would be qualified to challenge Brian Pearces article. Simple anatomy and common sense dictate that a portion of his article is not plausable. Whats your African experience to challenge anyone ? Shooting a elk with a .270 ? No dissrespect intended towards you but I don't see the comparison.
I am going to the head, I have to meditate on this issue. 
