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| Their is a difference between ridicule and FACT. No I have never shot a buff. There are dozens of folks here that have though. With guns a heckuva lot more powerfull than the 45-70. I have yet to hear about any double penetrations or ass shots from them. I have however heard a lot of laughter.  If this cowboy lives near you you might offer him some free advice....The bulls eye is NOT on the bulls ass.  |
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| Well With the exception of reading too much I agree with you. The concept of bullet placement would be better off discussed with Brian Pearce than myself. Other than that we are not so far apart on what we are saying, save the exception of not trying to sully Brian Pearces reputation any further. |
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| I will be the first to give credit where credit is due. The 45-70 is likely fine for these bulls:  By the way, I too find Mr. Pierce's article implausible. It makes me wonder if there weren't more shots fired than he says, with a stray bullet hitting the cow buffalo out back. Mr. Pierce does not look like a model of physical fitness and it is possible that he was out of breath and perhaps did not place his first shot perfectly. But perhaps we cannot fault him from omitting embarassing details from the article. Only the bravest of us admit our follies. |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 | 
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| Lookie there Vern ! Three of em lined up. I bet you can shoot straight through all three and hit the fence post to boot ......Which end do you shoot ?????  pssst that front blackie looks like a real trophy ! |
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| Sometimes buff are shot in the ass after horsing the initial shot, the objective being the spine from the rear. Pearce missed on that shot, too. Using the .45-70 in Africa, let alone on buff is one of 3 things:
1) A stunt to attract attention;
2) A calculated challenge to someone with experience (both with the caliber and with Africa and Cape Buffalo) and a desire to do it differently, just like a bow hunter;
3) If 3 above does not apply, then it is stupidity with danger to others thrown in.
One of you will ask, so, yes, I have African experience, more than 1 dose. |
| | | Posts: 747 | Location: Nevada, USA | Registered: 22 May 2003 |
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| I can understand #2 and even respect it to a point. As long as no one else pays for the error of the hunter I could care less what they hunt with as long as it is legal and in the boundries of sportsmanship. The recent articles that Rifle magazine promoted do not fall into that category IMO based on what certainly appears to be at best gross exageration. |
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| Sure thing. I'm bringing my 270 with 160 grain Noslers though. I shoot that one well and for me thats what counts. Even if I only get a spike. When you and Ray get back to camp I'll have the back strap and eggs ready. |
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| If you want to talk elk I will jump on that wagon. I have tagged 13 myself and put finishing shots into 4 others that 270's didnt take. Growing up in Idaho myself I have been on hand for over 100 elk being shot. I cant say what is perfect for buff but I definately know what it takes for elk. I have a feeling Jayco does also. Game on! |
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| Cant beat that one. Did take my first and second elk in the Selway @ 12 and 13. 5x5 @ 12, 5x6 @ 13. Only been skunked for 2 seasons of the 15 I was able to hunt elk. The 5 I missed were due to Uncle Sam keeping me away. Funny thing is both the skunked years were cow only tags. Couldnt find a cow to save my butt. Saw some great bulls both years though. |
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| Jayco, How old were you before you took your first elk with a 270 ? |
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| Chuck,
I didnt draw a bull tag in 2000 and had to settle for an over the counter spike tag. That was the toughest hunt I have ever been on. Do you have any idea just how small the percentage og spikes make up the elk population? I did spend 15 minutes looking at the largest bull I had ever seen at less than 50 yds. A HUGE 7x7.
I hope to draw a bull tag for back home in ID for this fall though.
My apologies to the forum members for dragging North American game into this forum. My fault, sorry. |
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| why apolagize ? All strands digress and it is a civel conversation so what the heck. I have no qualms about using the 270 and I rather got the impression from Jayco that he uses it as well. That has a lot to do with my confidence in my gun and my hand loads with Noslers. In either event when the steaks are sizzelin in the pan it matters little what bullet got the job done except for conversations sake. Best of luck on your draws this year. It's nearly time for me to fill my apps out as well and even a cow works for me. With a little luck some day Jayco or Ray might show me down some of those logging trails. |
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| Quote:
why apolagize ? All strands digress and it is a civel conversation so what the heck. I have no qualms about using the 270 and I rather got the impression from Jayco that he uses it as well. That has a lot to do with my confidence in my gun and my hand loads with Noslers. In either event when the steaks are sizzelin in the pan it matters little what bullet got the job done except for conversations sake. Best of luck on your draws this year. It's nearly time for me to fill my apps out as well and even a cow works for me. With a little luck some day Jayco or Ray might show me down some of those logging trails.
Using a .270 also requires that you choose your shot carefully and not take those tail-end shots that are so commonly presented in the timber.
My preference for elk used to be the .375 h&h until I switched to the 9.3 x 62. With either of those cartridges and quality bullets I can get into the vitals from any angle if I need to. |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 |
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| I see no controversy in the article. It clearly states that although the .45/70 is adequat for buff it is not the reccomended caliber. It says the .45/70 is not "a stopper" caliber just an adequat caliber. It says that the .45/70 is not equal to the .375 and larger big bores. Why is that wishy-washy? |
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| No question there. I agree completely. I am just a 270 fan and I accept the limitations it presents. I have been thinking about a 30-06 lately and then Ray mentioned a 9.3x62 in a Model '95 that just sounds like too much fun. As I get older the 270 is light, quick and most importantly I am supremly confident in my shooting skills with it. It is for lack of a better description my lucky charm. |
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| My favorite elk round is my custom 308 Win loaded with a 165 Partition. The rifle is match accurate an I try and keep my shots under 100 yds. It will still bust both shoulders and exit thte far side. Never recovered a bullet yet with that load. I made the error once (I was just 16 and thought I knew it all, I now know better) of using Ballistic Tips for elk in my 300 Win Mag. It took 3 shots to bring the bull down. And he made it that last 20 yds over the ridge crest and rolled 200 yds down to the bottom. Getting him out was pure hell. Not a single bullet penetrated past midpoint of the chest cavity. That is why I now use Partitions and bust the shoulders. They dont go anywhere with the front shoulders gone. It is also why I prefer a little more frontal diameter than 270. It kinda goes back to the 45/70 for buff argument: just because it can doesnt make it the best choice. |
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| Chuck Wagon: You said you were "supremely confident in your shooting skills with it" (the 270). You perfectly summed up the best reason for carrying any particular shooting piece. ( There's an old expression from the days of gambling contests on shooting-" Beware of the man with one gun") I, too, am a lover of the 270 - even though I never got to go hunting in the West (I think a prong horn antelope trophy is a world class trophy) where I would think that the 270 is in its element. (I'm probably much older than you so you may not remember a gun writer for Outdoor Life named Jack O'Connor who was a devotee of the 270 and a running argument he would have (in print) with Warren Page, Gun Editor of Field & Stream, who favored the 30-06. I kind of straddled the fence. I wanted a heavier caliber for bigger game than plains animals so I never used my 270 (and I owned several)on big game at all. (I just enjoyed shooting the caliber) What I hope is that some of the really experienced types in this forum can give you some advice on shooting plains game with a 270. Frankly, since we all agree that bullet placement is paramount and since the 270 (130 gr. load. I recognize no other!)  is deadly accurate out to 300 yards I just don't see why the 270 won't drop even 600-700 lb animals. (If you're from the West, by your user name, aren't there a lot of dead elk (bigger than that) who prove that the 270 is a killer? (BTW, I think it always was better than the unmourned Winchester 264 Magnum) |
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| Sadly I'm not from the west. I grew up reading those Outdoor life articles as well. A time when writers actually wrote good stuff that left you hanging on the edge waiting for next months issue. I go to the magazine rack now and I dont even need to buy the magazine. If they have articles about brand X or outfitter X I can pretty much sum up the articles for you. This gun or this place is great and wonderfull. You should buy one or go there. Didnt even need to turn a page or spend five bucks. Now I am still a ardent 270 fan and always will be. I never debate that one. I just smile and let others shoot what they want. |
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| Quote:
By the way, I too find Mr. Pierce's article implausible. It makes me wonder if there weren't more shots fired than he says, with a stray bullet hitting the cow buffalo out back. Mr. Pierce does not look like a model of physical fitness and it is possible that he was out of breath and perhaps did not place his first shot perfectly. But perhaps we cannot fault him from omitting embarassing details from the article. Only the bravest of us admit our follies.
I don't have a clue about the 45-70 stuff but I can kick in two cents about Brian Pearce. I sold him an LBT mold and have met him around Payette, ID and at gunshows in Boise. He stands around 6� 4� to maybe 6� 6� and I�d guess somewhere around 240-250 pounds. As far as not looking like the model of physical fitness, he looks just like what he is, an Idaho rancher and cowboy in his mid to late thirties who has ridden horses, worked cattle and hiked and lived in the vertical country much if not most of his life. He might be carrying an extra couple of inches around the middle but not much more than that. If he wasn�t wearing a cowboy hat you might mistake him for an ex-college linebacker.
Everyone�s opinions vary but it is rather disingenuous to claim a man is lying just to support a point. If you have some facts to present that Brian Pearce is indeed lying then please present them, otherwise this is just scurrilous gossip from the safety of a keyboard.
You speak of bravery. Come to most any gunshow at the Western Idaho Fairgrounds in Boise, probably on a Saturday, and look for a big guy with a short moustache in a cowboy hat. Ask him if his name is Brian Pearce and if he replies in the positive then tell him to his face that he is a liar. That would definitely be worth the $5 admission price to the gunshow. |
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| I don't have a clue about the 45-70 stuff. If you have some facts to present that Brian Pearce is indeed lying then please present them.
I think your first sentence just about says it all. Go buy your self a copy of your buddy's article in rifle magazine. Count the shots he says he took and where he claims they hit. Then look at the photo of the GUT SHOT buff in the back of the truck. Re-read your article and let us know where you find that the big fella says he gut shot the animal. The proof you are asking for is right in the article in Pearce's own words.
Now the next time your at one of those gun shows why don't you roll up to the Sheep farmer you mentioned and ask what it feels like to hunt with a illigel gun ? I bet you might get some more sheep dip answers from your sheep farmer. You might want to CYA as you leave. He seems to like those hind quarter shots....But then he is a sheep lover  |
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| Quote:
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By the way, I too find Mr. Pierce's article implausible. It makes me wonder if there weren't more shots fired than he says, with a stray bullet hitting the cow buffalo out back. Mr. Pierce does not look like a model of physical fitness and it is possible that he was out of breath and perhaps did not place his first shot perfectly. But perhaps we cannot fault him from omitting embarassing details from the article. Only the bravest of us admit our follies.
I don't have a clue about the 45-70 stuff but I can kick in two cents about Brian Pearce. I sold him an LBT mold and have met him around Payette, ID and at gunshows in Boise. He stands around 6� 4� to maybe 6� 6� and I�d guess somewhere around 240-250 pounds. As far as not looking like the model of physical fitness, he looks just like what he is, an Idaho rancher and cowboy in his mid to late thirties who has ridden horses, worked cattle and hiked and lived in the vertical country much if not most of his life. He might be carrying an extra couple of inches around the middle but not much more than that. If he wasn�t wearing a cowboy hat you might mistake him for an ex-college linebacker.
Everyone�s opinions vary but it is rather disingenuous to claim a man is lying just to support a point. If you have some facts to present that Brian Pearce is indeed lying then please present them, otherwise this is just scurrilous gossip from the safety of a keyboard.
You speak of bravery. Come to most any gunshow at the Western Idaho Fairgrounds in Boise, probably on a Saturday, and look for a big guy with a short moustache in a cowboy hat. Ask him if his name is Brian Pearce and if he replies in the positive then tell him to his face that he is a liar. That would definitely be worth the $5 admission price to the gunshow.
BRAVO, Jim in Idaho. This guy has been attacking people in this forum for a while now. Calling people liars, as he has me as well, from the safety of a keyboard has been his stock-in-trade. He might profit from a bit of introspection himself.
Regards |
| | | Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004 |
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| Quote:
I don't have a clue about the 45-70 stuff.
If you have some facts to present that Brian Pearce is indeed lying then please present them.
I think your first sentence just about says it all. Go buy your self a copy of your buddy's article in rifle magazine. Count the shots he says he took and where he claims they hit. Then look at the photo of the GUT SHOT buff in the back of the truck. Re-read your article and let us know where you find that the big fella says he gut shot the animal. The proof you are asking for is right in the article in Pearce's own words.
Now the next time your at one of those gun shows why don't you roll up to the Sheep farmer you mentioned and ask what it feels like to hunt with a illigel gun ? I bet you might get some more sheep dip answers from your sheep farmer. You might want to CYA as you leave. He seems to like those hind quarter shots....But then he is a sheep lover
So, you argue the facts by saying a guy is fat and out-of-shape, and use "sheep farmer" (I have a few sheep myself) as a pejorative. By the way, a lot of hunting in Africa, especially RSA, is done on "sheep farmers'" ranches. If you have ever hunted in Africa, I wouldn't be surprised if it was on some "sheep farmer's" ranch, (that being a huge industry there) and if you have, I'm sure a snide comment about "sheep farmers" wouldn't enter the conversation while you were a guest of the rancher. I doubt if the photo in Rifle shows all the detail of the sequence of shots or where they landed, but he obviously didn't make an attempt to hide the gut wound, did he. Based on what a lot of you "Bwana Jims" say about shooting animals on the run and from poor angles, I'll bet thee are a lot of gut-shot animals. To call a guy a liar based on a magazine photo when you weren't there seems a little presumptous. As to "illegal" guns, kinda makes one wonder about "illegal" guns when people use arrows, and culling operations use rather small caliber choices. He sure didn't try to hide the fact that he used an "illegal" gun from the host country or his PH. Will he now be barred from hunting there again, or be prosecuted if he returns? Interesting.
Regards
PS: Why don't you throw out all your hunting clothes that have wool in them. You'll probably have to hunt in your boots and jock strap, a picture I'd rather not contemplate.
T |
| | | Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004 |
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Based on what a lot of you "Bwana Jims" say about shooting animals on the run and from poor angles, I'll bet thee are a lot of gut-shot animals.
Tankertoad,
Once you engage African DG, you have to keep shooting regardless of the angle, to a) keep it from getting away (and becoming a danger to others, as well as costing you the trophy fee), and/or b) keep it from getting TO you (and costing you a lengthy stay in an African hospital (with its risky blood supply), or your life).
As you have probably never hunted DG, you should not speak like this again. After your first buff, lion, or elephant hunt, you may see how things REALLY happen for you yourself. As long as the animal is on its feet, things can turn bad in a heartbeat.
George |
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| [quoteOnce you engage African DG, you have to keep shooting regardless of the angle
Tankerload, It would be better if George had said, "Once you engage the Africa Forum on AR, you have to keep shooting regardless of angle" 
Brent |
| | | Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002 |
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| Quote:
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Based on what a lot of you "Bwana Jims" say about shooting animals on the run and from poor angles, I'll bet thee are a lot of gut-shot animals.
Tankertoad,
Once you engage African DG, you have to keep shooting regardless of the angle, to a) keep it from getting away (and becoming a danger to others, as well as costing you the trophy fee), and/or b) keep it from getting TO you (and costing you a lengthy stay in an African hospital (with its risky blood supply), or your life).
As you have probably never hunted DG, you should not speak like this again. After your first buff, lion, or elephant hunt, you may see how things REALLY happen for you yourself. As long as the animal is on its feet, things can turn bad in a heartbeat.
George
You are quite correct, George, I have never hunted DG, and probably never will, but I will speak to whatever I please. Your lecture would more aptly go to ChuckWagon, to whom I was replying, who derides a person who shot a buffalo, in part because it was "gut-shot" . If you had put my comment in context by reading that post, you might not be so quick to tell me what I may and may not be permitted to comment upon, which is one of the more telling aspects of this forum. In passing, I do have some misgivings about "trophy" hunting for "dangerous game", although I can also see some benefit, but I will not argue against a person's right to do it. Perhaps, in another thread, you would like to discuss that.
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| | | Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004 |
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| Quote:
[quoteOnce you engage African DG, you have to keep shooting regardless of the angle
Tankerload, It would be better if George had said, "Once you engage the Africa Forum on AR, you have to keep shooting regardless of angle"
Brent
Damn! I wish I had thought of that. Ain't it the truth.
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| | | Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004 |
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| GeorgeS,
I know I am going to get heckled for this story but here it goes:
When I was 16 a local rancher had a very large angus bull that needed to be put down. It was on summer pasture along with several hundred of his other cattle in the hills south of us. The bull was obviously sick or injured and the rancher had tried putting it down with his 30/30 unsuccesfully. The bull tried repeatedly to charge him and being on his horse saved his butt. He called me because he knew I could shoot well and had a couple guns that could do the job. After a couple hours on horseback we found the bull and I started on foot to get a better shot. At about 50yds he spots me and charges, froth from his mouth and nose blowing everywhere. I was prepared and put my first shot from my 300 Win mag under the chin straight on. He veered to the left and took another in the shoulder. This time he was straight away and the third round went right up the kazoo. He wheeled and was angling to the left on the run when #4 broke his neck. The front and rear shot both exited through the gut. The shoulder shot broke the near shoulder and took out a poprtion of the heart and lungs, the neck shot busted the neck and exited. While dressing the bull a large strand of barbed wire was found stuck through his guts and that was the cause for his needing to be put down. Needless to say it made him very sick and mean.
Not to mention he had a 30/30 round that blew apart on his right shoulder.
As GeorgeS stated there are a lot of reasons to take "bad shots". Sometimes it justy has to be done because that is the only option available. Is it the desirable shot, heck no! Would I take it if not forced to, not a chance. But when safety dictates it nust be done, you take whatever shot you can get.
Please understand this is not an attempt to compare a charge from an angus bull to a cape buff, but just to prove a point about why follow up shots are so important. And that circumstances can and do dictate what must be done. |
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| To follow up George's point; I shot my buffalo through the lungs with a 375 H&H ( 300 gr TBBC) whereupon he turned so I was looking at his south end. My PH literally screamed " SHOOT HIM AGAIN - SHOOT HIM IN THE ASS!". My shot in the ass broke his pelvis and saved us from following up a wouned buffalo in cover that he chose. As George said, once you shoot a Buffalo keep shooting until he is down. I don't brag about taking a texas heart shot, but I don't apologize either. |
| | | Posts: 1903 | Location: Greensburg, Pa. | Registered: 09 August 2002 |
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| Are you sure your not carmello in drag ? I have to ask with 36 posts completely arguing for the merits of the 45-70, starting fights or in the political forum. If your not a troll then you must be his twin brother. Like Carmello and so many other lever gunner wanna be's you choose to completely ignore the FACTS. I could care less in Pearce shot his buff in the hind quarters. It is notable for two reasons only. 1) He states in HIS article that he shot three times. A gut shot was not one of those shots he claims. This gives rise to the probability that he is not telling the ENTIRE story about penetrating completely through TWO animals, if at all. 2) He was not very competent with his weapon. He missed three times with poor shots. I am amused by the lever gun crowd to compare the 45-70 to a primitive weapon hunt. Which way is it ? Grouped with the game laws for bow and arrow ....Or the mightiest killer on earth ?  PS, Should I be suprised that you have sheeeep Baaaaaaad Baaaaaad baaaaad  |
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You are quite correct, George, I have never hunted DG, and probably never will, but I will speak to whatever I please. Your lecture would more aptly go to ChuckWagon, to whom I was replying, who derides a person who shot a buffalo, in part because it was "gut-shot" . If you had put my comment in context by reading that post, you might not be so quick to tell me what I may and may not be permitted to comment upon, which is one of the more telling aspects of this forum. In passing, I do have some misgivings about "trophy" hunting for "dangerous game", although I can also see some benefit, but I will not argue against a person's right to do it. Perhaps, in another thread, you would like to discuss that.
Regards
It seems you are more interested in arguing than arguing your point. Calling people here "Bwana Jims" is uncalled for, especially considering the fact that you have never done it yourself. You have no frame of reference to make such a statement; don't be an "armchair expert".
No one here (let alone those of us who have hunted DG) recommends gut-shooting game, but the fact is that you must put your follow-up shots into the animal from whatever angle presents itself. Sometimes the bullet doesn't make it through to the vitals, sometimes the angle is wrong.
I believe that the other poster was implying that there was a major discrepancy between the written account and the photographic evidence suggested. As an aside, most gun rag writers are held in little regard here, with many seen as shills, sell-outs, or downright frauds.
Thanks to Saeed's forbearance, you can say anything you want, but if it doesn't make sense, or is wrong (i.e., factually incorrect, or based on an incorrect or flawed assumption), someone here will probably contest your statements. Take my advice, or ignore it.
As for your misgivings about "trophy" hunting DG, they are yours to have, but damned few here share them.
George |
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Once you engage African DG, you have to keep shooting regardless of the angle, to a) keep it from getting away (and becoming a danger to others, as well as costing you the trophy fee), and/or b) keep it from getting TO you (and costing you a lengthy stay in an African hospital (with its risky blood supply), or your life).
BTW, if the meaning wasn't clear, 'engage African DG' means the first hit< !--color-->.
George |
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| Jim in Idaho
Interesting about Brian Pierce's size. It would be entertaining to see a couple of the blowhards on this forum walk up to him face to face and call him a liar or sheep farmer.
More entertaining than even this latest 45/70 thread (grin) |
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| With some posters suggesting fist fights to prove whether a propaganda-type article is true or not, it seems this thread is another one that has crash landed. |
| | | Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002 |
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