Who said anything about a fist fight ? I doubt the name callers would have much to say...............I suspect they wouldn't be shooting off their mouths near as much as their keyboards



As to this thread crash landing.........don't worry too much......the anti 45/70 people have a habit of keeping these threads alive and well a long , long , time........

what is interesting to me is when someone like you shows up late. You dont even have the fortitude to address the person to whom you are refering ! I would tell Brian Pearce or any one else that wrote a BS article like that straight to his face he is full of it.

Let me guess. You are Brian Pearce. Well if so, you sir are FULL OF IT ! I'm just north of Detroit and I attend a few national shows a year. I'd like very much to talk to you, if you are indeed who you are pretending to be, face to face. I am not hiding nor am I difficult to find. Perhaps you are simply offended that I did not post my location as a part of my profile. In either event should You or Mr Pearce succeeed in cutting my fingers off one by one so I can no longer type you would still be quite dissapointed to find my resolve unwavering with regards to the subject at hand. All of the chest beating and typing will not change the fact that the article by Brian Pearce has more holes in it than a shot out culender. Perhaps you have an explanation for the gut shot buff in his article ? If not after reading your home page I should think that some one with your experience must certainly have some insight as to how a animal would run after being shot through BOTH front shoulders. The implication being by Mr Pearce, that both shoulders were broken on the bull by his initial shot. Perhaps you simply take exception to my demented sense of humor. Implying in not so veiled innuendo's that Mr Pearce fornicates with sheep I may have chose my words poorly. It would have been more accurate to say that, IMO, Promoting hunting with a gun that is NOT legal by the letter of the law AND using a caliber that is FAR less than humane is poor form at best. This does not promote sound sportsmanship and Leaves me to question his motives and moral fiber. ESPECIALLY when combined with the obvious discrepancies in his own story.

Some how I knew you'd avoid applying your intellect to answering any real questions. Now I never said I was a gun dealer so why would I have a table ? To sell subscriptions to Rifle magazine .... Now there is a show in Novi Mi this week end and I will go out of my way to meet you and you can explain it in person. You are the one who wants to find me so here is your big chance. Nothing between us but air and opportunity. You can make the drive in about 4 hours. That should suit you right down to the ground as you seemingly lack the ability to offer any constructive conversation.

Will Brent hunt down Chuckwagon? Will he set up a blind by the watering hole, or will he employ native trackers?



Will there be fisticuffs?



Find out next time as the "45-70 for Cape Buffalo" saga continues.

Maybe after he hunts me down and strings me up he will explain how that cape buff ran away with two broken shoulders. It should be a relatively simple thing to do for someone with his expertise. He shouldn't have any trouble finding me. I think we have met before.

ChuckWagon, my dear fellow:


Glad you researched the number of posts I have done. If only you had read them. You would then realize, if you are capable of interpreting the language, that I was not specifically extolling the virtues of the 45-70, but was discussing penetration, which somehow gets lost when the numbers 45-70 are in the post.


I'm not nearly as sure as you are that the FACTS can be ascertained from the photo in the magazine. Methinks you ridicule merely for the sake of it from your high-tech hunting blind. Also, if you read one of my recent posts, you will certainly see that I'm no "wanna be".

< !--color--> "2) He was not very competent with his weapon. He missed three times with poor shots." < !--color-->

Did you not read what GeorgeS stated, notwithstanding the patronizing tone of what he said?

< !--color--> "I am amused by the lever gun crowd to compare the 45-70 to a primitive weapon hunt. Which way is it ? Grouped with the game laws for bow and arrow ....Or the mightiest killer on earth ?" < !--color-->

Once again, I seem to be dealing with people who can't see the "forest". You berate an individual who hunts with a 45-70, but, no doubt, extoll the virtues of the bow hunter. I refer you to your comment below about "humane" weapons. Do you not see the dichotomy?

< !--color--> "PS, Should I be suprised that you have sheeeep Baaaaaaad Baaaaaad baaaaad" < !--color-->

This one is REALLY good. Sounds like you must be quite a cattleman up there in the Detroit area, keeping the sheep/cattle range wars of the 19th century going. I'm surprised you don't hunt with a rifle of the same era, maybe a trapdoor Springfield in, say, 45-70.


< !--color--> "IMO, Promoting hunting with a gun that is NOT legal by the letter of the law AND using a caliber that is FAR less than humane is poor form at best. This does not promote sound sportsmanship and Leaves me to question his motives and moral fiber." < !--color-->

Although this is from another of your posts, I just couldn't pass it up. Actually, the CALIBER is the same as the mighty .458 Win Mag, but the CHAMBERING is 45-70. When you get right down to it, it will poke two .458 holes in a buffalo, so I guess there is some other killing feature you must inform me of, maybe hydrostatic shock or some such.

I know it's difficult, but try to keep it civil.
Regards

Tankertoad,

Why don't you just shut up.

You make no sense and, frankly, you're boring as hell.

As a newcomer to the thread, and outside observer, could someone please inform me of why the 45-70 is illegal? Specific quotes from a law would be more informative than someone's opinion, (but less interesting).

BFaucett,
Thanks for putting the whole affair into hard fact.
Hopefully it will help clear up the whole debate on this thread. Opinions are great, but you cant argue with facts.

Now for my dumb question. Do you know the formula to determine Joules? College physics was 11 years ago so I need some help with this one. The conversion from KJ to ft/lbs you posted is pretty handy.

Thanks

First, let me preface my remarks by saying that it is recognized that in the right rifle, with the right load, and with a well-placed shot, the 45-70 will kill a cape buffalo. However, when conditions are less than ideal there are certainly better choices.

That said, the fact is that the 45-70 can indeed meet the Zimbabwe weapons requirements listed for elephant, hippo and buffalo. Listing limited reload data or commercial ammo does not change this fact. That, however, doesn't make the 45-70 a good choice to hunt those animals. It also does not mean that it should be accepted for such an application as the authorities have no way of knowing if the user has the equipment and load that will achieve the caliber requirement. In addition, any one who hunts those species with the 9.3x62 (widely recognized as an adequate cartridge for buffalo) in many of the factory ammo and reload data iterations will not meet those requirements.

Just some thoughts on this completely pummeled into the ground, then dragged behind a Land Rover for 500 miles through the bushveld, and then hopefully left for the hyenas and vultures topic.

[deleted]

The Marlin 1895 action can be modified to cleanly cycle and chamber a 45-70 cartridge with a 2.75" COAL. Loaded with a 440 grain LBT hard cast bullet (SD .300) to 40,000 CUP this bullet achieves at least 2020 fps in a Marlin 1895CB (26" barrel) so modified. The Siamese Mauser has been successfully converted to the 45-70, can accept a cartridge almost 3 inches long and in good condition has a safe operating pressure with the 45-70 of 50,000 CUP. A custom Siamese Mauser 45-70 rifle is capable of driving a 480 grain Woodleigh Weldcore Soft Nose (SD .327) at least 1933 fps.



The Zimbabwe caliber standard as I understand it says nothing about whether or not the bullet construction or configuration is appropriate for hippo, Cape buffalo or elephant.



I said the 45-70 can meet the Zimbabwe caliber requirements, albeit through a long-barreled and modified lever action rifle or a custom bolt action rifle and appropriate reloads. I did not say that such a rig was well-equipped, adequate or prudent for hunting dangerous game. I was just pointing out that one cartridge which can meet the requirements is considered an inadequate cape buffalo cartridge while another in some loadings does not meet those requirements and is considered a good cartridge for cape buffalo.



ChuckWagon's discussion it seems to me identifies the minimum caliber requirements as more of an institutional issue rather than strictly a technical one. Indeed, I am not taking my 45-70 on a Cape Buffalo hunt, it is my deer and black bear rifle. I will however take my .375 H&H, which some even think is marginal for the task.



Have the hyenas and vultures rended this topic to nothingness yet?

Just out of idle curiosity, who enforces the Zimbabwe minimum caliber/energy requirement regulations? The Rifle Magazine article by Bryan Pierce stated he was hunting cape buffalo with a cartridge that did not make the energy minimum. So why was he allowed to proceed?

The real point of this strand was the Brian Pearce article and his use of a standard Marlin 1895 cowboy with the corbon penetrator load. The fact remains it came no where near the minimum LEGAL requirement in the country he was hunting.
Case closed

I bet there are a lot of hunters who kill all sorts of game animals in Africa with cartridges that are far below the legal minimum every year.

Saeed - You are correct about the minimums - some folks get away with it with no repercussions. However, IF something goes wrong and a client, tracker, or someone outside of the hunting party is injured due to a wounded buff AND the client was shooting a low energy caliber, then the PH must answer as to why he allowed the client to do this. The PH is putting his ass and reputation on the line by allowing this to happen. After all, he is ultimately responsible for ethical and safe hunting practices.



Allowing a green hunter to chase buff with a 45-70 is not exactly safe or ethical...

I'm sure there are many who look the other way and are willing to accept the risk as long as that $8500+ is plunked down on the table.

My point is it IS done very often by many people, and it obviously works for them and their PH.

Whether it is legal or not is beside the point.

As far as I am concerned, if some feels like hunting an elephant or a buffalo with a 45-70, good luck to him.

Bloody hell, we argue endlessly about a 375 not being good enough for these animals.

And while we are on the subject of legality, how many stupid laws do you think each of us breaks every day? While we are carrying on our normal lives?

I bet not many of us pass a single day without breaking at least one law or another.

When something is illegal, it does NOT make it automatically wrong.

Howdy,

Have been occasionaly visiting since I first was advised of the "Mohammed Shoots" video some years ago.

Mostly have enjoyed the visits, but recently was informed of the .45-70 Brian Pearce string. For some years I've frequented assorted BBS's,and have some experience in sifting wheat from chaff -- or worse.

Have read Rifle/Handloader since their inception. Even have Jim Charmichael's first hand report of the initial staff writers conference, as reported in "Just Jim". In the main, they have used the best writers of each decade. It is somewhat amusing to see Brian Pearce so abused, especially given the quality of his research and writing.

The psychology of BBS's and the 'Net has interested me every since I first became aware of the effect which de-personalized communication appears to have on the human psyche. Looking back over these twelve pages, I believe that a clinician could find fertile material for research.

I really enjoy the technical material here, and have been fascinated by the Big Game topics since first reading them as a child. My favorite writers have always been those who saw no need to denigrate others in their field, in order to glorify their own findings and exploits.

With the inceptions of BBS's like this, the knowledge flow has hit a new level. Real exchanges of scholarship are achieved in weeks, which used to take decades to complete. The best reseachers and the best purveyors of knowledge appear to be those who seek the positive, and have little use for negative propaganda.

With those expectations of an informative discussion about the .45-70 and Mr Pearces article, I was rather disappointed to read the vitrol displayed by Mr. Wagon and a few others. There is a real touch of 'Net pathology in Mr. Wagon's writing. There is no doubt that that personalities like him believe that they are a Keeper of the True Faith and Most Holy Grail.

And, many times folks like Mr. Wagon are perfectly nice and reasonable gents when meeting them over a cup of coffee at a gun show. I'd almost be certain they do not see themselves as making paranoid assumptions about who is addressing them, or being laughing stocks or actin g as keyboard blowhards. In their own mind, they are serious and knowledgeable warriors for the Truth.

However, to someone like myself, new to this BBS and new to any past controversies or personality conflicts, whatever there was factually to be gleaned from Mr Wagon's contributions was buried under the invective. Hurrah for free speech, I reckon.

As well, my estimate of Mr. Atkinson has been lowered. It seem that a man of his stature and reputation would express himself in a manner more befitting his publically percieved stature. It's his business, literally, tho'.

All in all, having read the string [and the article] , it appears that Mr. Pearce's conclusions are pretty much accepted by most of you as common sense and valid. The .45-70 can kill a buff, but if you plan to fight a buff, bring a bigger and proven gun -- preferably one starting with .4 or better, moving along a 'chunka' smartly.

Hmmmm...better post my own qualifications.

Like Mr. Wagon, I've never hunted Africa. Have been there twice. Spent a month in South Africa and Namibia. Some days just passed sitting around quietly at less travelled waterholes, watching game at close range. Wouldn't now kill an elephant, unless it was self defence. Too much like us, socially.

However; buff?
A double .500 Krieghoff Nitro would be OK.

Mostly I hunt ducks with Chesapeake Bay dogs, assorted upland, deer: just mundane Mid-Western things. Killer groundhogs, and the like. A double .22Hornet would be nice for the agressive bull 'chucks, but I can always use my stopper: the .38 Special S&W 442 Hammerless --if they get too close.

Oh, a friend of mine, Gary Cleland of Cleland's Gun Shop, Swanton Ohio, made his own 8-bore flinter muzzleloading rifle, to strict pukka-Sahib Brit patterns. Looks like an 1840 London Best, complete with browned Damascus-etched bbl. Went to Africa [2nd trip]and the ball smacked thru both shoulders of the buff. No doubt a 20MM thru and thru hole didn't meet a standard or two, but it seemed to be adequate, as the buff died.

Nice to meet you all, and no doubt there may be one or two other contributors with whom our paths may cross. BTW, has anyone here on this string ever looked into the hard-cast revolver bullet penetration that's demonstrated at the John Linebaugh handgun seminars? I'd think the technology might be of interest to African-game oriented folks.

Adios,

John Meeker,

Maumee, Ohio, USA

The mere presence of some clients, I'm quite sure, put peoples lives at risk. Regardless of, or resulting from, the cannons they carry. This all without breaking a single law.



As my Grandfather likes to say: "people die in bed".



Chuck

Chuckwagon
Obviously you do not run a business. If you did you would realize that people break laws everyday, mostly without even knowing it or causing any harm. In fact I am forced to choose between alternatives that are not entirely legal daily because there is no way to go that can possible satisfy everyone. FWIW members of my family have taken at least 11 buffalo with cartridges that are nominally illegal. We didn't think a 338 was too light, neither did the PH or the buffalo.

I have no trouble making choices that are well within the peramiters of the law. Simply because you or your family may choose to walk a fine line it does not mean others share your quandry. I suspect in your minds eye you are always right in your choices and it is the law that is wrong. I would submit to you that neither our corporate CPA firm nor our personal accountant share your troubles at least on our account. In either event ignorance is never an excuse, which simply is irrelivant in this case as we are discussing someone who twisted the law for his own benefit and profit. There was a clear choice made. If you break the game laws hunting you are little more than a poacher. In this case it is clear and irrefutable.

This is addressed to no one in particular.

Some rounds are legal for DG in Africa, some are not. Whether you choose to contravene those regulations is entirely up to you and your PH. If you choose not to, and something goes terribly wrong, you stand a good chance of getting screwed by the game department or worse.


The proponents of the .45-70 in conventional lever-actions and the merchants who cater to them are welcome to try the round out on Cape buffalo, elephant, etc., if they can find someone willing to guide them. Except for a handful, none of them have, and many state they are unlikely to ever do so.

The 'opponents' of the .45-70 (in conventional lever-actions) are not likely to ever accept a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70 as a DGR until a lot of people have proven it to be one.

So, we have proponents of a premise who have a very tiny body of supporting 'evidence' (with slim prospects of obtaining much more in the foreseeable future) trying to convince a group of skeptics.

Barring sufficient incontrovertible evidence, no one is going to change their minds, so let's drop it.

George

You might look yourself in the mirror before you come to a new website with a first post like this, or like what you are hiding behind on another forum. Taking your own advice must be a tuff pill for you to swallow. I'm not sure exactly what you were smokin when you thought a majority here agree with Brian Pearce and his account of the 45-70. I am quite certain WHO you were smokin when you ran back over to Paco's forum. You sure told me little man ! :shocked

PS, If "real" cowboys have manners in a public forum what happened to yours here and in your new home ?

Is that 311 W Broadway 419-893-6300 or is it 702 W Wayne St 419-482-6638 ? Either way both of you are in the national criminal data base and just signed up for every telemarketing gimmick in the free world

ROTFLMAO, Mr Wagon.

Didn't take much to smoke out the 'Net psycho in your makeup. Pegged you as a troll with a mental problem as soon as I read your style and content.

i trust that you're pleased with yourself for self-exposing the real you, behind the 'no profile' faceless facade that allows your Walter Mitty world to spin.

You note that I don't hide who I am, where I'm from, or what I do for a living. Nor do I pretend to more experience than i write about.

Nice to know that I haven't lost my touch for spotting a phoney and 'Net-coward. I't would appear from your reaction that you'd better go soak those sore toes and flaming red face.

I'll wager a sody pop you're gonna offer to fight me now, anitcha? Well whether you do or not, since much of your posting technique relies on avoidance of actually answering issues, what you threaten to do doesn't much matter. So, since you love the counterattck, why not try to avoid answering this straight on. No sideslips, no defelction ad homenium, no welching around in the usual fashion -- just a straight answer.

I'd like to hear exactly what items Brian Pearce 'sold out' on; what were the results of your personal testing and verification of that item or experiment? Where did you publish or publically contest those results with Mr. Pierce?

There is any easy set of questions for you to answer. Think you can handle it without the top of your head going nuclear? Just so you get the drift, I had no agenda in coming here to read the arguments. But after a bit of reading, you stood out from the normal folks like...well, it may be a family forum, so let's drop that simile. But you do understand me?

After examing all the answers with no particular end in mind, I did find that Mr Pearce appears to generate no substantial argument with his premise. That you cannot see that, suggests to me that you have passed from hobbiest to obssesive, in short order. What? Two months and 450 or so posts? Have you ever been booted off a bulletin board? Just thot I'd ask.

Tell ya what. Since every one has read about your heroic attitude towards life and the omnipotent knowledge which you possess, I invite you to come meet me at the Midwestern Sixgunner.com gathering down in Indiana this spring.

After your own inviting all those folks who live a mere three or five hours away to come committ some criminal action on your doorstep, surely it couldn't be too much trouble for you to show up and demonstrate your case in front of a few witnesses to your alledged prowess at rational argument and other manly feats.

Bring your favorite show and tells, and you can shoot right along side some of the nicest folks in the world. After all, I have no doubt that you are a crack shot, have many original and creative reloading techniques to share, and possess colorful tales of your hunting exploits.

Now, Mr Wagon, there is as fair and square a deal as could be possible, for a fine citizen like yourself to put a face to his words.

I'll even let you shoot my treasured .303 Enfield, with Greek HXP ammo. Only my best friends get to do that, so you can see I'm extending every courtesy to you.

This is about much life as I'm going to spend on you, Mr Wagon. You have two solid yes's or no's to deal with here.

ONE: Cite your own first hand confutation of Brian Pearce selling out on an item of review or of fact. Not some interpretation of some article, but a real did-it-yourself repeatable documented provabable examination.

TWO: Come down to the sixgunner shoot and meet me in person, and spend some time shooting and talking.

I'm done posting on this subject. I'm not going to be checking on your replies or even if you do reply at all. I'm not going to check and see if you will come to the sixgunner shoot. Just show up.

I leave it to the members of this BBS to judge the outcome for themselves.

Gentlemen.....?