There were international bans on importing hunted trophies

The reason I ask is I have just received an inquiry from a sportsman to hunt a couple of bushbuck only. His only stipulation is that the safari must be in remote and wild Africa. Apparently, he has hunted it all ten times over and simply wants to walk an African riverbank with a big stick and take the opportunity that presents itself. It's called hunting.

For starters, bans would make hunting much more competitive, and prices will tumble. No one is going to pay $100,000 for a Lion that they can not take home for example. But many would still pay a sum for the experience. Remember nothing is wasted in Africa and hunting will continue to feed communities. Those old broken down short tusked elephants will be in demand for our sport. Our trophies will be life long memories.

I would hunt and shoot an animal anywhere in the world if I knew the carcass was to be utilized. Believe it or not, both Lion and Leopard are cherished by communities for their 'medicinal' purposes. Skins are a valuable asset.

Sectors of our society think that they are banning hunting and that is far from the truth and in fact, they are putting more value on the true sport of hunting.

We will adapt and Africa will continue to provide the opportunity to realize our dreams.

Peter Beard predicted The End of the Game in the early '60s. Well, we are here in 2021 and to be honest not much has changed.

I can only speak for myself. Personally, it makes no difference to me. I hunt for the love of the hunt. I could care less about returning with a trophy.

My dream trip? To walk across the Ngorogoro crater with a gun. Obviously for protection. Can you imagine what one might see?

Hunting for me is personal,it's nature at it's most rewarding,shoot or don't get to shoot? no matter,rifle on my shoulder,walk all day is the best time spent,I don't collect trophies,don't have a single one,enjoy the meat,when I can,my ambition in life is to retire someplace,where my front door opens up to the wild & beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Hunting for me is personal,it's nature at it's most rewarding,shoot or don't get to shoot? no matter,rifle on my shoulder,walk all day is the best time spent,I don't collect trophies,don't have a single one,enjoy the meat,when I can,my ambition in life is to retire someplace,where my front door opens up to the wild & beautiful.

Indeed and nowadays there is too much pressure to collect and not enough emphasis on hunting and the outdoor experience. The true trophy is the wild and adventure and no one can take that away from us.

I totally agree with what you gentlemen are saying. But also know that you both have been around the block many times and thus trophies are less important.

As a booking agent I am spending more time dealing with trophy import issues than finding good places to hunt and selling hunts! But I can also tell you that very few clients want to go on a hunt for the experience alone, especially the $$$$ hunts. I have one client who has 4 sets of ivory including a set of 84lb that he shot on a hunt I arranged, he loves to hunt elephant, he is 80 years old but says he will not go if he cant bring back the ivory!!! Maybe he will take it all with him when he goes........

I have left trophies behind myself and feel better after I get over it, that I dont have the expense of the taxidermy.

Andrew if you are worried about the end of hunting because of trophy bans, I would be more worried about no younger hunters a far bigger problem!

Happy New Year.


Arjun Reddy
Hunters Networks LLC
30 Ivy Hill Road
Brewster, NY 10509
Tel: +1 845 259 3628

Trophies mean absolutely nothing to me.

I hunt because I enjoy it.

And will continue to hunt as long as I am physically able to.

The antis can stick it.

They are not going to stop me.

I would posit that whether one wants to bring back a physical reminder of their hunt might depend on which end of the hunting curve you are on. My guess is that most people here already have plenty of trophies and that adding more isn’t desirable for more than one reason. Whereas a guy making his first trip to hunt Buffalo will more than likely feel he came home empty-handed if he isn’t able to glance at those horns on the wall every now and then.

"My guess is that most people here already have plenty of trophies and that adding more isn’t desirable for more than one reason. Whereas a guy making his first trip to hunt Buffalo will more than likely feel he came home empty-handed if he isn’t able to glance at those horns on the wall every now and then"

Exactly!!

I will never bring any plains game home with me again.

Now, I would like to bring home one buffalo and a leopard one day. However, it would not be a
deal breaker as the whole experience and the memories are what I value most. Picture could
suffice.

I can certainly see and would not be surprised to see a ban on importation. It would not stop me from
going to Africa again (if I ever decide to do so again).

To me, the trophy and taxidermy are part of honoring the animal. As long as it is reasonable, I will continue to bring things back, especially unusual animals... who would want to not have a mountain Nyala mount if you shot one?

That is not to say I would give up going if I can’t bring things back. I have shot nontrophy elephant and buffalo and enjoyed it immensely. However, I don’t think I could shoot a buffalo, cut out a backstrap and leave the rest to rot, even knowing hyenas and vultures gotta eat, too.

That said, I also have more trophies than I can really display- I don’t “need” them.

I do think not being able to have trophies to show your friends will hurt the industry. I also don’t see that lack of trophy import will substantially reduce safari costs... it may reduce your end price by not paying the shipping and taxidermy costs, which are not insignificant, but the operators will expect to continue to make a profit, and land isn’t cheap.

I think Andrew is correct in no one is going to pay $100,000 for a lion they cannot get home.

The big losers will be the wildlife. Who is going to pay 150-200K to shoot a Markhor and leave it in Pakistan or Tajikistan.

Before US hunters were allowed to import them they were they going for 40-50K.

A six figure High Altai Argali in Mongolia is not going to happen if you cannot export it home. Same with the Marco Polos.

How many hunters in the USA have hunted Ethiopian leopard? There are leopard everywhere, but they are not importable so almost no American hunters pursue them.

This gentleman that paid $400,000 for a black rhino permit will be just a memory.


Sept. 8, 2019
A Michigan trophy hunter who paid $400,000 to kill a rare black rhinoceros in Africa in 2018 is seeking a federal permit to allow him to import its skin, skull and horns to the United States, according to government records.

Trophies are important to me.

They are tributes to the game taken, and tangible reminders of the hunt.

I would still hunt if I couldn’t bring them home, but I would not be happy about it.

At this point in my life bring home trophies is less important than the experience. But I already have a house full of trophies . When I was a younger hunter with limited funds the trophy was important part of my decision to spend the money on an expensive safari and not being to bring home trophies would most likely be a deal killer. The industry depends on new hunters where the trophies are important component of the hunt the choice of spending 10K+ on an Africa hunt hunt with no trophies or a Alaskan moose hunt Wyoming Elk or a Alaskan brown Bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Trophies are important to me.

They are tributes to the game taken, and tangible reminders of the hunt.

I would still hunt if I couldn’t bring them home, but I would not be happy about it.

Folks,

What Arjun said. If there is a total ban on trophy imports African hunting in most cases will die. For the hunter that has taken many animals a safari without trophies might be fine. I certainly could do a safari without bringing anything home. In the case of the hunter going on his/her first PG hunt or his/her first buffalo safari these hunters want to bring home everything. The simple fact is these hunters make up the vast majority of those going to Africa. They want and need something concrete to show for their expenditures. You can't show non hunting relatives, friends and acquaintances "the thrill of the hunt". Even other hunters who are not into safari are just not gong to understand not "getting" something for your money.

I intend to just ride this out until I just can't do it anymore but I'm not optimistic about the future of shooting safaris.

Mark

I have been on several non-trophy hunts and I don't bring anything home now but the other side of the coin is, when the outfitters can't sell their high dollar hunts, lion, trophy elephant, etc., they won't be able to fund the anti poaching and drilling bore holes among other things.

I will continue to hunt without bringing trophies home.

There probably isn't much I would pay to have shipped home the way it is.

From a selfish point of view, it should make hunts cheaper.

Outfitters in Tanzania have turned in many concessions. Between lion aging and the dearth of elephants, why buy the big license and spend the big bucks.

Baby Boomers may be the last generation, in significant numbers, that hunts internationally.

The wildlife and the wild spaces will be the losers'.

Taxidermy is just another thing to fight about with the Rot Frau.

It is nice to bring them back but I really don't care.

There was a time that I wanted everything mounted, but I have moved so many times and thrown so many trophies away or sold them on ebay. I just don't care anymore.

If they ban importation of trophies I'm still going. It's about the hunt and the memories.

I have started having my hunts videoed. It is a fraction of the cost of taxidermy. It takes up little space.

Occasionally, I still have things mounted. My one and likely only Marco Polo for example. The vast majority is not mounted.

I will video as well....

My house is full... so says my wife....

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To me, the trophy and taxidermy are part of honoring the animal. As long as it is reasonable, I will continue to bring things back, especially unusual animals... who would want to not have a mountain Nyala mount if you shot one?

That is not to say I would give up going if I can’t bring things back. I have shot nontrophy elephant and buffalo and enjoyed it immensely. However, I don’t think I could shoot a buffalo, cut out a backstrap and leave the rest to rot, even knowing hyenas and vultures gotta eat, too.

That said, I also have more trophies than I can really display- I don’t “need” them.

I do think not being able to have trophies to show your friends will hurt the industry. I also don’t see that lack of trophy import will substantially reduce safari costs... it may reduce your end price by not paying the shipping and taxidermy costs, which are not insignificant, but the operators will expect to continue to make a profit, and land isn’t cheap.

Here I go again. I'm gonna get beaten around for this.

Charles, I completely agree with you. I have no desire to go hunting and not bring home the trophy(s)

I really see no point in it. If you are truly going, just for the hunt, why not just a photo safari. Based on "just the hunt" I believe some mean, simply the kill. At the point of the shot, you've successfully hunted that animal.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with the kill as well. Heaven knows (as does my taxidermist) I'm not bashful about killing. I just see no reason to partake in "half" an activity.

Hell, go back to prehistoric men, even they took trophies home.

It's normal
It's tradition
It's instinctive.

I have been blessed to hunt Africa many times and have many trophies in my room which I enjoy tremendously. I guess I would hunt without my trophies, I do not need shoulder mounts now but I am beginning to love the European mounts. I hopefully am going to Zim in August for my first leopard hunt. I would for sure not shoot the leopard if I could not bring home the mount. I am also hunting buffalo and am looking forward to the European mount but would hunt buff with or without the mount. I love my 3 buff mounts but would hunt them forever with or without the mounts.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To me, the trophy and taxidermy are part of honoring the animal. As long as it is reasonable, I will continue to bring things back, especially unusual animals... who would want to not have a mountain Nyala mount if you shot one?

That is not to say I would give up going if I can’t bring things back. I have shot nontrophy elephant and buffalo and enjoyed it immensely. However, I don’t think I could shoot a buffalo, cut out a backstrap and leave the rest to rot, even knowing hyenas and vultures gotta eat, too.

That said, I also have more trophies than I can really display- I don’t “need” them.

I do think not being able to have trophies to show your friends will hurt the industry. I also don’t see that lack of trophy import will substantially reduce safari costs... it may reduce your end price by not paying the shipping and taxidermy costs, which are not insignificant, but the operators will expect to continue to make a profit, and land isn’t cheap.

Here I go again. I'm gonna get beaten around for this.

Charles, I completely agree with you. I have no desire to go hunting and not bring home the trophy(s)

I really see no point in it. If you are truly going, just for the hunt, why not just a photo safari. Based on "just the hunt" I believe some mean, simply the kill. At the point of the shot, you've successfully hunted that animal.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with the kill as well. Heaven knows (as does my taxidermist) I'm not bashful about killing. I just see no reason to partake in "half" an activity.

Hell, go back to prehistoric men, even they took trophies home.

It's normal
It's tradition
It's instinctive.

Steve, would you not hunt or fish because of your beliefs? When I hunt it is for sport and I have no trophies in my home. I lie the buffalo skull of the beast that gored a friend rots in the bottom of my garden. The termites will reduce it to nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
I have been blessed to hunt Africa many times and have many trophies in my room which I enjoy tremendously. I guess I would hunt without my trophies, I do not need shoulder mounts now but I am beginning to love the European mounts. I hopefully I am going to Zim in August for my first leopard hunt. I would for sure not shoot the leopard if I could not bring home the mount. I am also hunting buffalo and am looking forward to the European mount but would hunt buff with or without the mount. I love my 3 buff mounts but would hunt them forever with or without the mounts.

I understand but in the future, you can hunt a leopard for half the cost and purely for the experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Trophies are important to me.

They are tributes to the game taken, and tangible reminders of the hunt.

I would still hunt if I couldn’t bring them home, but I would not be happy about it.

Me too!

If trophy importation is banned, I will continue to go to Africa. The experience is far too great for me to stop going. That being said, I will continue to bring home trophies so long as possible. For me, the trophies in my home are a tangible reminder of the experience; their presence only makes the memories more vivid. When I walk in the room, the sight of those animals takes my breath away just like "the moment". Photos are wonderful and I always strive to take quality photos on safari but I've never had a photo give me quite the same feeling...

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Trophies are important to me.

They are tributes to the game taken, and tangible reminders of the hunt.

I would still hunt if I couldn’t bring them home, but I would not be happy about it.

Me too!

Same here, I'd hunt but would not like coming home with nothing. When my crate showed up with my heads when I hunted Africa years back. I like to have flipped out. To say the least the country boy was excited ya might say. Country boy be going back in a year or so when he retires.

I like taxidermy and skulls. To me they serve as a reminder of the hunt and you can sit in the trophy room with a friend and look at the different animals that will prompt you to tell stories of your adventures. Like was said earlier, newer hunters tend to want to mount everything they kill. As one ages and has a lot more hunting experience the trophy becomes less and less important compared to the experience.

I would still hunt wild places if there was a trophy import ban. The adventure and seeing the few wild places left on this earth is why I go. I am sure the prices would drop drastically which would be bad for the hunting outfitters and the wildlife.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have started having my hunts videoed. It is a fraction of the cost of taxidermy. It takes up little space.

Occasionally, I still have things mounted. My one and likely only Marco Polo for example. The vast majority is not mounted.

We have videoed all our hunts.

Fir several years, I carry a small camera in my pocket all the time.

Taking both pictures and videos.

Nothing beats looking at them years later.

For me, it is not the banning of trophies that is the point.

But the utterly stupid arguments one has to go through dealing with both taxidermists, and shipping agents especially.

The shipping agents are shooting them selves in the foot.

And I have no regrets they are loosing business!

They bloody well deserve it!

This is what one gets when one gets greedy!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To me, the trophy and taxidermy are part of honoring the animal. As long as it is reasonable, I will continue to bring things back, especially unusual animals... who would want to not have a mountain Nyala mount if you shot one?

That is not to say I would give up going if I can’t bring things back. I have shot nontrophy elephant and buffalo and enjoyed it immensely. However, I don’t think I could shoot a buffalo, cut out a backstrap and leave the rest to rot, even knowing hyenas and vultures gotta eat, too.

That said, I also have more trophies than I can really display- I don’t “need” them.

I do think not being able to have trophies to show your friends will hurt the industry. I also don’t see that lack of trophy import will substantially reduce safari costs... it may reduce your end price by not paying the shipping and taxidermy costs, which are not insignificant, but the operators will expect to continue to make a profit, and land isn’t cheap.

Here I go again. I'm gonna get beaten around for this.

Charles, I completely agree with you. I have no desire to go hunting and not bring home the trophy(s)

I really see no point in it. If you are truly going, just for the hunt, why not just a photo safari. Based on "just the hunt" I believe some mean, simply the kill. At the point of the shot, you've successfully hunted that animal.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with the kill as well. Heaven knows (as does my taxidermist) I'm not bashful about killing. I just see no reason to partake in "half" an activity.

Hell, go back to prehistoric men, even they took trophies home.

It's normal
It's tradition
It's instinctive.

Steve, would you not hunt or fish because of your beliefs? When I hunt it is for sport and I have no trophies in my home. I lie the buffalo skull of the beast that gored a friend rots in the bottom of my garden. The termites will reduce it to nothing.

Interesting...It really becomes almost a philosophical discussion. Yes, I have these beliefs and ethics from my father beating them into me as a child.

Can you argue the point I made, that at the point of the shot, the hunt has concluded?

At that point its simply killing or not killing.

There will always be somewhere to hunt. If it isn't Africa, there is somewhere. Fishing is different, catch and release is accepted and normal.

When in South America, I (we) keep enough fish for dinner turn the rest loose.

Three years ago, our group caught the same Piraiba of about 175#, three times in one week. It had a tumor or something on its side, made it very identifiable. That's the karma payback for catch and release.

Anyway, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, we all have our own tolerance and ethics. I feel strongly about mine. But others are theirs and I have no qualms accepting those either.

Interesting subject.

Haven’t brought back 3 elephants, 2 buff, 2 hipppo, a croc and a boat load of plains game from my last 6-7 safaris. Don’t have room and don’t give a shit.......

We were stung by the Elephant Import ban in 2015. As I stated in the hunt report Joyce and I discussed the fact we may never have the Elephant's Ivory in our possession. We do have a video.

We already had the hunt booked before the ban. Would we have booked it after the ban, likely not. Why did we still hunt it?

1) Joyce's cancer at the time made the future uncertain for us as a team.

2) A contract is a contract and it wouldn't have been fair to Buzz and CMS to bail.

3) I get what you say Steve, but I wouldn't trade that experience for anything for us as a couple and taking a picture (remember it was video'd) would not have come close to providing the emotion of killing that animal.


Cheers
J&J

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
We were stung by the Elephant Import ban in 2015. As I stated in the hunt report Joyce and I discussed the fact we may never have the Elephant's Ivory in our possession. We do have a video.

We already had the hunt booked before the ban. Would we have booked it after the ban, likely not. Why did we still hunt it?

1) Joyce's cancer at the time made the future uncertain for us as a team.

2) A contract is a contract and it wouldn't have been fair to Buzz and CMS to bail.

3) I get what you say Steve, but I wouldn't trade that experience for anything for us as a couple and taking a picture (remember it was video'd) would not have come close to providing the emotion of killing that animal.


Cheers
J&J

Great points all.

Which is why I say yours are yours and mine are mine. You did what was right for you and Joyce at the time.

I wouldnt argue your decision for a second.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
We were stung by the Elephant Import ban in 2015. As I stated in the hunt report Joyce and I discussed the fact we may never have the Elephant's Ivory in our possession. We do have a video.

We already had the hunt booked before the ban. Would we have booked it after the ban, likely not. Why did we still hunt it?

1) Joyce's cancer at the time made the future uncertain for us as a team.

2) A contract is a contract and it wouldn't have been fair to Buzz and CMS to bail.

3) I get what you say Steve, but I wouldn't trade that experience for anything for us as a couple and taking a picture (remember it was video'd) would not have come close to providing the emotion of killing that animal.


Cheers
J&J

Great points all.

Which is why I say yours are yours and mine are mine. You did what was right for you and Joyce at the time.

I wouldnt argue your decision for a second.

Having that video makes us wish we had video'd our other African hunts as well.

I would hate not being able to bring stuff back home but it would not stop me from going. I would maybe hunted certain animals or finally get to hunt some big 5 stuff because prices would be down. Plus I may not go as often but would still good for sure

There is a very high correlation between trophy import and high dollar price hunts. Take trophies away and high dollar price hunts will simply disappear.

When hunters spend more money on a safari than the average income of a household in us uae Singapore or Qatar there is a expectation of bring back trophies.

I have zero interest in taxidermy. I may be one of the few people with a wild lion sitting at a taxidermist for 7 years - one of these days I may mount it.

In the good old days of 2010-2011-2012 I was kind of told if I wanted to hunt a lion in the save I would need to spend $150-200k before the lion hunt would even be booked. I would need to hunt leopard and maybe an elephant And more buffalo before the lion quota Hunt was available as there was a line ahead of me and there was significant demand for a lion hunt. When lion trophies import was banned all that demand evaporated.

Same way - No one goes and pays a premium for ivory by the pound for an elephant trophy that cannot be imported.

I would still go hunt Africa and leave all trophies behind but I mainly hunt buffalo and plains game. I am fine with taking pictures and not shooting anything either.

A good photo safari in Africa is not cheap. I rather go do a hunt in moz and be able to get out and walk than sit in the back of a truck on a photo safari.

Mike

I think it will reduce demand. If even, say a third would not pay for a hunt without a trophy to bring home, I expect the industry would be pretty well done in.
Personally, I pretty much go for tuskless anymore. I thought I might hunt one more bull, but when the cost factor is combined with not getting the ivory, I’d rather hunt two or three tuskless than pay for a bull.

I shot my last bull in 2014, and never expected to see the ivory again. The ban was announced about a week before my departure. I got lucky and the court opened a 30 day window a year or two down the road that the kill fell into, and I got it. The hunt had been booked for two years, and after a couple of soul searching days I decided the ivory wasn’t why I was going and proceeded to have the best hunting experience of my life.
That being said, if I had known about the ban in advance I likely wouldn’t have booked a bull.

I did two consecutive PG hunts and got representative animals. Some ended up European mounts, others were shoulder. I never did get a chance at the proper kudu.

The taxidermy and shipping ended up being rather expensive relative to the actual hunt.

I’ve shot a few red stag and Buffalo in Argentina, but have left the heads there (the meat did go to a school for underprivileged kids), while the bleached skulls with antlers/horns are lodge decorations there.

I don’t imagine myself hunting trophy elephant. I might bring a Cape buffalo, kudu, and sable back if allowed. I wouldn’t mind shooting more of the common PG, but wouldn’t feel the need to bring those back.

I do think import bans will hurt, but it also sucks not being able to go. I know others have been going, but does the EU allow import of certain species the USFW does not allow?

Welcome all, to what was once "Great" Britain....

Now ruled from behind the chair by a blond bimbo, with a bastard who has hold of the PM's nuts and his sympathetic (or is that just PATHETIC) ear.

The last time l had my feet on African soil l couldn't bring back trophies as we were helping a friend on a cull ticket, so l got a tattoo instead. Now every time l look down at my leg l know where l once stood and wish to go to again some day.

The next time l go l will not mourn the loss of a trophy, but think that by my actions l will still be helping friends and joying good times with them and their families.

With the quality of videographers these days you can perfectly capture and re-watch your adventure. Also making casts of tusks, horns and skulls will become more common if you can't take trophies. So it really is just the skins, but they're replaced with video and photos.

quote:

I can only speak for myself. Personally, it makes no difference to me. I hunt for the love of the hunt.

Basically true for me as well. I do enjoy having the trophies I have and will likely bring home a few more—laws permitting.

But I am forever a hunter. I enjoy the act of hunting...it is who I am.