Has anyone hunted the Bubiana Conservancy in Zim? I heard it is a smaller version on the Save? Any feedback?

From what I have heard, a good portion of this area has been taken over with a big poaching problem.
Some Ranchers and Hunting Operators are still in the areas re renting their land .
This is good Leopard country.

Thanks OZ,
I would only go for Leopard and a few smaller animals.

I don't believe ANY portion of the Bubiana Conservancy has been "Taken Over". Yes, in the general area of the Lowveld, a good portion of the game farms have been taken over, but this is one of the few exceptions. Most of Zim has been "taken over" for that matter.

MC,

From Johnathan Hulme of Zambezi Hunters this AM.

Hi Mark,

I spoke with Jonny this evening - they have just shot a great lion! He says you are correct in that the Bubianna Conservancy is over run.

I hope all is well with you there.
All the best
Nina

Thanks Mark,
I am trying to put together a last minute leopard hunt. Any idea what he means by over run?

MC

Over run means war vets/squatters whatever you want to label them have occupied the property. LDK says there is still good hunting there and not all is occuppied. I'd contact these guys and ask them some hard questions about the conditions there. A cheap hunt that is sub par is money wasted.

Mark

I'm going next month with a good friend of mine. I've communicated with them on a regular basis since I was there last year; no problems or change. This conservancy consists of a huge area, and yes, some of it was fed as fodder to keep the wolves away. Being that Bubiana was, and still is a large producer of crops, if it were lost half the people in the area would starve. Poaching is strictly forbidden and like most hunting blocks in Zim, vigorously protected. We traveled with a Ranger last year but never saw any signs of poaching. The only kills I found were from Leopard. I picked up some nice horns too! There were lots of game within the conservancy, from Elephant to Sharp's Grysbok. Tons of Impala, Kudu, Waterbuck, Bushbuck, Wildebeest, Rhino (although I only saw spoor), Eland etc. Zebra were plentiful but I'll be honest. It took me 3 days to get my Stallion. Always something bumping them, especially Giraffe. FYI: had some excellent waterfowling and the lake Largemouth Bass record is over 13 pounds. I'm taking my own shotgun this year as the fowl are plentiful. I'll post any updates but all remains calm there. LDK

Is that the same place as Lemco but by a different name?

quote:

Is that the same place as Lemco but by a different name?

No.

I hunted the Bubiana Conservany before the war vet problems started. Used to be a nice area to hunt and good memories.

As for no poaching, well even before "farm invasions" there was a lot of poaching happening there.

quote:

On Bubiana an estimated 30,000 animals have been killed in the past 18 months. Many have had only their limbs cut off for the poacher’s pot leaving the rest of the carcass to wastefully rot.

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For the rhino, only recently brought back from the brink of extinction, this lawless, uncontrolled epidemic is especially threatening. Private farms and conservancies protect 70% of the national total of rhinos which are all state owned. A government that once granted the rhino’s custodianship to the conservancies is now encouraging invasions into their habitat and turning a blind eye to a crime that is destroying them. After South Africa, Bubiana has the second biggest rhino population in the world. Here, where a quarter of Zimbabwe’s 400 rhino live, 50% are thought to have been killed. The most recent to have been found had been snared and then stabbed to death. Another southern conservancy, Lynwood Ranching, has found 7 of its 36 black rhino in snares. In Matusadona National Park two rhino were poisoned with pesticide and one had its horn hacked off.

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/sept9_2002.html

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In Bubiana, an estimated 30 000 animals have been slaughtered in the last 18 months. Many have had only a limb cut off for the poachers’ pot, leaving the rest of the carcass to rot. In addition to the decimation of wildlife, the destruction of the habitat has also been severe. Bubiana has lost an estimated 240 000 trees, whilst 50% of Chiredzi’s 270 000 acres have been destroyed. A game ranger reports: “The worst thing is the Mupani forests, which take years and years to regenerate, are being hammered really hard. Big chunks of forests are being cut down and destroyed, opening up the bush and exposing vast tracks of soil to erosion. A whole ecosystem is being destroyed.â€

Bubiana has one of the largest rhino populations in the world, 50% of which are believed to have already been killed. Another conservation area, Lynwood Ranch, has found 7 of its 36 Black Rhino in snares. In Matusadona Park, two Rhino were poisoned with pesticide and one had its horn hacked off.

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/zimbabwe_killingfields.htm

Thanks for all the info. I am going to pass on Bubiana right. I am sure it is fine to hunt.
But, not exactly what I am looking for.
I really want a leopard,Nyala, Waterbuck combo hunt. I can wait.

Here is the skinny on this from Ticky Drummond, whose family owns one of the ranches in Bubiana Conservancy. This is the piece that I refer to as Bubiana Conservancy, but in future I will refer to it as the "Drummond Ranch". We represent Drummond.

"There is a misunderstanding on what the Bubiana Concervancy is now and what it was before 2000 and what concervancy we are speaking about. May I put you all in the picture:

The concervancy was formed in the early '90s and was made up of 12 properties owned by 8 different people and was over 350 000 acres in extent. In 2000 all of these properties were handled differently as far as the land redistribution was concerned. Yes, some of the properties have been over run by villagers and have not been operational since, some of the properties were given to the government as part of negotiations, some of the properties have remained as core wildlife areas where there is no resettlement and no domestic livestock, one of these properties is ours. We own and operate on 65 000 acres where we have ZERO resettlement etc. We spend a large amount of funds and effort on anti poaching activities and hence have been able to reduce it to a very minimal level. This, along with adequate water, has allowed us to grow our populations to more than adequate. I would not be trying to run a high class operation if this was not the case.

The comment that 50% of the Rhino have been poached is absolute nonsence. In actual fact the population is well over 150 and of these 2 have been poached so it is actually less than 1%.

Basically speaking, our area (65 000 acres) makes up aprox 20% of the original Concervancy, some of the other 80% has been negatively affected by the land redistribution but our 20% remains pristine."

...it helps to be a ZANU-PF sympathizer.

Motor City, I hunted on the Drummond Ranch in the fall of 2005. We hunted leopard successfully - the place had lots of big toms. We hunted with dogs, which of course gives you the best chance of getting a big tom. My partner also took a huge eland, and there seemed to be plenty of other game.

One high point of the trip was encountering rhino on two occasions while hunting leopard.

PM me if you want more details - Joe

tsibindi, would you care to elaborate on your remark?? Do you have any inside information or is this just a rude speculation on your part??

...not(rude)speculation; known fact.

I just discussed this matter with tsibindi via PM and was made aware of the situation in years previous. I appreciate his discretion.

I hunted George Brown's place on the Bubiana Consevancy in '04. Some war vets, some poaching activities but not a lot. That said, I used up almost all of my 9.3x62 ammo when I shot up a whole pack of poachers dogs that we ran into,however, no trophy fees on the dogs. Blundered to within water pistol range of a dozing black rhino and backed away reeeeal carefully and quietly. Had a great time and got some outstanding animals.
I have been trying to contact George and his wife Lynette without any luck. If anyone has some info on how they are doing I would appreciate it very much if you would share it with me.Thank you.

Head Trauma, George and Lynette are doing just fine. They are on two daughters now but otherwise not much has changed since '04

tsibindi, you do not know what you are talking about, your fact may not be fact at all!
This fourum involves the question "has anyone hunted the Bubiana Concervancy" your kind of attitude here does no good for the industry. The fact remains that because of what we have done and gone through we have managed to preserve the habitat and environment successfully. Does this not deserve some praise? Please be realistic, not jelous...

Ticky, thanks for the info. Lynette was about 4 months along with their first child when I was there, relieved to hear they have not been run off their farm. If you talk to them, please tell them Hi for me. Thanks, Russ Green.

tsibindi, because you made these allegations on a public forum you should feel free to substantiate them publically. Perhaps there are some other interested parties in your comments. I am certainally interested in what you have to say. You have nothing to hide from.
FYI there is a difference between 1. being foreward thinking and co-operative, and 2. ZUNU-PF.
You should try it out.

Uneducated as I am, I thought that Bubiana (Baboon) Conservanzy was Uncle Bobby Mugabe's garden

The world record baboon is still marauding around there anyway!

i for one would like to hear what this is about as well, because that remark if true would be something that would make me shy away from the drummon ranch, which i heard nice things about.
and we also have ticky here now, to correct mistakes if any in the statments.

best regards

peter

P.S wellcome ticky to AR, i hope to get your input on other subjeckts as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
[b]"There is a misunderstanding on what the Bubiana Concervancy is now and what it was before 2000 and what concervancy we are speaking about. May I put you all in the picture:

The concervancy was formed in the early '90s and was made up of 12 properties owned by 8 different people and was over 350 000 acres in extent.

quote:

In 2000 all of these properties were handled differently as far as the land redistribution was concerned. Yes, some of the properties have been over run by villagers and have not been operational since, some of the properties were given to the government as part of negotiations,

quote:

some of the properties have remained as core wildlife areas where there is no resettlement and no domestic livestock, one of these properties is ours. We own and operate on 65 000 acres where we have ZERO resettlement etc.

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Basically speaking, our area (65 000 acres) makes up aprox 20% of the original Concervancy, some of the other 80% has been negatively affected by the land redistribution but our 20% remains pristine."

So 65,000 acres out of what was once 350,000 acres )ie 18 percent). So the conservancy is basically gone and a single ranch remains "standing"?


What happened to the properties taken over? Is this where all the forest was alleged to be denuded and the massive poaching went on?

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The comment that 50% of the Rhino have been poached is absolute nonsence. In actual fact the population is well over 150 and of these 2 have been poached so it is actually less than 1%.

Seriously? Only 2 rhino poached in 8 years, or 2 poached this year?

Here we go again .... reminds me of the movie Animal House...FOOD FIGHT!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Here we go again .... reminds me of the movie Animal House...FOOD FIGHT!

Ha ha Russ.

No "food fight". But I would be very surprised if only two rhino had been poached since 2000 or 2002.

...I'll respond as soon as I recover from a "mild" case of pheumonia.

I said this before, but this will be my last word on this subject. I was on Bubiana last year, during February. No one was there hunting, and I was there on a scouting mission if you will. Ticky was adding some new additions, minor remodeling and sewing new grass. I toured all around the conservancy and hunted Zebra for three days. Lots of game seen every day; Zebra (saw lots of them each day, but they were very wild, and we were hunting for an old Stallion), Impala, Blue Wildebeest, Waterbuck, Bushbuck, Eland, Duiker, Grysbok, Klipspringer (never seen as many in my life), Elephant, (close calls) Buffalo, Monitor Lizards, Warthog's (lots), Giraffe and Kudu. All kinds of small game. Saw Rhino sign, but never ran into them which frankly was OK by me as we were on foot a lot of the time. Dead game; yes, Leopard kills. Saw no sign of poaching. At no time did I meet any workers, camp staff, cooks, or field workers (the Drummonds run a large farm) that displayed anything but kindness and a friendly attitude. What happened to other adjoining areas did not interfere with me, nor the entourage I traveled with. I feel saddened for their loss, and hope one day they can return to their homes.

I found Ticky and his entire family excellent hosts, with outstanding hunting grounds, accommodations, food and game to hunt. I was ecstatic about returning to hunt Leopard, which I will in another month. Don't know why this sudden attack keeps coming up, but personally I have no reservations about returning to Bubiana. I have yet to ever meet a PH, his family or associates from Zimbabwe that was anything other than gracious, honest, and good people. Just my honest observations.
Cheers,
L. David Keith

quote:

Originally posted by tsibindi:
...I'll respond as soon as I recover from a "mild" case of pheumonia.

Thank you sir. Hope you recover soon.

It is a shame what has happened to Bubiana. I enjoyed hunting on it and it was a grand place.

Now shrunk from 12 properties and 350,000 acres to seemingly 1 property and 65,000 acres.

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I said this before, but this will be my last word on this subject.


..... Don't know why this sudden attack keeps coming up

Don't know why you interpret a free exchange of factual information as am "attack"????

Unless your only purpose is to flog off hunts?

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So the conservancy is basically gone and a single ranch remains "standing"?

You may recall me saying "some of the other 80% has been negatively effected" and every case was treated differently. I only refer to Drummond Ranches as the person who started this topic was considering a safari here and my comments were to give him a better idea of the situation. Nitro X you can be very supprised on the Rhino poaching numbers and this only comes with thanks to the efforts of the people responsible on the ground as well as to funds from fellow hnters... Thank you.
I believe I have input what I can here and will be happy to contribute to the other topics on the forum, Peter thank you for your welcoming remarks.

Is this property foreign owned or owned by a Zimbabwean?

quote:

Originally posted by ticky:

quote:

So the conservancy is basically gone and a single ranch remains "standing"?

I only refer to Drummond Ranches as the person who started this topic was considering a safari here ...

Actually he asked about the "Bubiana Conservancy" not the "Drummond Ranch", but I see your reasoning.

I hope the black rhino there do continue to prosper, having almost walked into one once. Good luck and hoping for better times in Zim when the current ZANU-PF and their supporters are booted out of the country.

Ticky:

You're correct, the posted question was indeed "Has anyone hunted the Bubiana Conservancy?" I could have answered: Affirmative. I hunted several ranches within the Bubiana in the 90's. In fact, my wife killed her leopard on the Drummond ranch. (Boulder Creek, as I recall) IMO this was a wonderful area for leopard.

Several posters had responded to the question prior to my reading same. I was prepared to include our experiences on the Bubiana which included not only your ranch, but two others as well.

However, your missive to Mr. Russ Gould turned me off. You quoted: "Our area (65,000acres) makes up 20% of the original conservancy. Some of the other 80% has been negatively affected by the land distribution but our 20% remains pristine." This brazen assessment (albeit accurate) hit a nerve, and I posted the quip about Zanu PF sympathizer.

Then you responded with a rejoiner accusing me of having an attitude that does no good for the industry. Wrong! I have steadfastly upheld all legitimate Zimbabwe safari operators. (For the record, at NO time did I suggest to anyone not to hunt the Drummond property.)

You also state: "The fact remains that because of what we have done and gone through we have managed to preserve the habitat and environment successfully. Does this not deserve some praise?" IMO, the means does not justify the end.

Be "realistic", you say. Realistic? Ranches taken over in part, or completely: Twin Rivers, Nyoni, Jonsyl, Tshabezi, Olympus, Atherton, Bunny's Luck, to name just a few. These have been over-run by "war vets" and other miscreants of the Mugabe regime. These properties were owned by your neighbors Ticky. No doubt you provided each of them with you formula for success. You know, how to prevent the government from taking their land.

The Drummond property, 65,000acres is devoid of the land grabbers. 65,000acres, 100square miles of land that continues to flourish, and thrive, while your neighbors have suffered the loss of the land, and are eeking out a living just to survive. I suggest you wind in your neck with your self-serving attitude!

You accuse me of being jealous. By golly, you got me there. I am indeed jealous. I'm jealous of the Zimbos (many of whom I have the pleasure of knowing) who have the courage to face the unmitigated adversity foisted upon them by a ruthless despot. I am jealous of their redoubtable will to survive against the odds. Yeah, I'm jealous...of your neighbors. Jealous of the Drummond holdings? I think not.


And lastly, the phrase that got your panties in a wad. Maybe ZANU PF sympathizer is a bit harsh. I'll change my post in that regard. You say "forward thinking, and cooperative" I refer to that as fraternization with the enemy.

Just as an aside. The first time I was in Zim was 1988. My next trip will make an even 20. I've not fabricated any of what I've posted. I have ommited posting names of indivuals in the interest of privacy. Of course Ticky knows them all.

Sala gahle

Let's review the facts and ease up on the innuendo here.

Of the original circa 4000 white-owned "farms" in Zim, some 400 remain with their original owners. A few farsighted and pragmatic owners offered up a piece of a ranch, or a whole ranch, to save another ranch, and this for the most part was done before the land was taken by fiat. The government has in most cases respected these deals and these farms remain in the original ownership. Other than these special cases, there was no rhyme or reason as to which farms were taken and which were not. And some that were originally missed were subsequently taken, again with no pattern evident. Some of the people believed to have friends in high places subsequently lost their ranches.

Let's also not forget that the ZANU-PF party was elected by overwhelming majority in several successive elections; initially, at least, with the blessing and zealous approval of the United States Government, I may add. It's only in the current and the immediately prior election that the outcomes were allegedly manipulated to some significant degree....however even in these, there is no evidence of major fraud that I have seen. If the elections were a total farce, the govt would surely not have lost its parliamentary majority in this current election, if the votes were "already counted prior" as some suggest.

Now almost all of the whites in Zim support the opposition. However, every person in Zim is entitled to support whomever they choose to support. If someone votes Democratic in the USA, do we call them "Democratic Party Sympathizers"? I think not. This is a very strong word, as I think it was first used in the Hitler era, as in "Nazi Sympathizer".

Now specifically, all companies including the hunting outfits in Zim are required to have black partners by law. So all of them, by now, have or are in advanced negotiations to bring in black financial partners. I would hazard a guess that a substantial percentage of those partners are people who are on the "wrong" side of the political fence. This is expedience. As someone else on this forum has pointed out, the entire lower Zambezi Valley is bankrolled by a very wealthy white Zimbabwean who has business dealings with the Mugabe government. That's not to say Mugabe or any of his cronies own part or all of these companies. Let's make a distinction between these situations, and the US State Dept "Black List": farms/hunting operations that are owned by members of Mugabe's inner circle - these are the ones that are on the US gov't 'blacklist".

I don't pretend to know what relationship, if any, exists between the Drummond family and the government. Frankly, it's their business. To my knowledge, this operation is not "blacklisted" so that would indicate that there is no legal or financial tie. If anyone can show me that it is blacklisted, I assure you that I will immediately cease to market hunts on this property.

Yes, it's a tragedy that so many farms, so much habitat, and so much wildlife was sacrificed in the name of a rather questionable (from a US/capitalist frame of reference) ideology. But again, let's not lose sight of the fact that in the history of mankind, what has happened in Zimbabwe is not unprecendented. Has anyone visited the Custer battlefields and/or studied the history of the Western USA? How about the Hugenots that were chased out of Europe in the 1600s? The San people in South Africa? The blacks in parts of South Africa (the infamous 'black spots'? The Jews in many countries in Europe? The landowners in Cuba? As far as I know, none have been compensated for their land (I think the Jewish compensation was for Holocaust victims, not material losses, although some property has been restored through the courts.)

In closing, if people care to read some of my other postings, I have made it clear that I am aware that a significant chunk of the forex earned by the hunting industry is effectively confiscated by the Zanu PF government, without regard to creed or affiliation. Every trophy that is exported is sent on its way if, and only if, the corresponding trophy fee and daily fees have been correctly and fully accounted for, with the govt taking their cut via forced oonversion at the ludicrously low official exchange rate; and that further, if the current government does in fact steal this election, my enthusiasm for continuing to provide grist for this mill evaporates. In fact I have suggested some ways in which readers of this forum can vote with their feet and dollars (to a deafening silence). But so far, what do we have? A belated blessing of the parliamentary results, with the opposition taking a clear majority; an admission that Mugabe was the runner-up in the presidential election, albeit a belated admission; a commitment to follow the constitution with a presidential runoff. All correct; however, we also have clear and irrefutable evidence of voter intimidation that is very troubling. If this is sufficiently widespread to rise to the level of "stealing" the presidency, then I revert to my earlier proposals.

So in summary, if Tsibindi or anyone else has a problem hunting with the Drummonds because they have successfully (so far) navigated the land reform process in Zim, then surely these same gentlemen should have a problem hunting in Zimbabwe at all. But I see the opposite in the case of this poster, to a startling degree....he seems to have made repeated and large contributions to the Zanu PF government over the years, perhaps in ignorance but the granularity of his postings suggest otherwise. So I am afraid that this does, after you strip everything away, seem like nothing more than "bystander sour grapes", to borrow a legal concept, perhaps mixed with a little dash of vendetta?

Tsibinde, self serving attitude? - I have to go back to what I said before - you don't know what you are talking about! If you have anything to offer please be sure of what you are talking about. Do you know who's idea it was to bring together all the members and form a Conservancy? US! Is this self serving? FYI our views of how to handle the land program so as not to negatively effect wildlife production was offered to any interested parties. You only speak of properties that have resettlement on, what about neighbours who took our advise and followed it through and have zero resettlement today? Why don't you mention them, maybe you don't even know about it.

I wish to end the discussions with Tsibinde, if he is not a Zimbabwean then I do not believe he has the capacity to enter into such discussions as he has a very shallow understanding of the situation and reality of life and survival in Zimbabwe. Tsibinde, come to Zim as often as you please but please do not interfere with the manner in which we conduct our business as it has nothing to do with you. Enjoy your time in Zim, enjoy your safari and leave it at that.

I don't know what I would do if I were in Ticky’s shoes. Would I have made a deal to keep the farm going? Would I have teamed with my neighbors only to see what I had built destroyed? Everyone is different and only a handful of farmers made deals that enabled them to keep some semblance of what they once had, a majority of them lost everything.

It seems that the only private areas really intact are those that are foreign owned or those that are affiliated in some way with someone within or otherwise connected with Zanu-PF, either openly or quietly. If the ranch is owned by a foreign company like many of the properties in the SAVE conservancy, than this is a big positive and I would encourage Ticky to advertise this fact. If there is another way to protect the land, let the CFU know.

To hunt a property that has been taken over or that is connected to those that supported farm invasions and continue to suppress the Zimbabwe people, would be a direct insult to the people that lost their farms and continue to struggle. It would be an insult to those I have made friends with and continue to support. They lost a farm, game animals and a hunting camp. How could I call myself their friend if I supported those that hurt them?

As of last year, Cabelas was openly selling hunts on a property in the Victoria Falls area that has been by their own admission “resettledâ€. But because the South African PH has convinced them it is a “Campfire type areaâ€, they feel it is perfectly legal for clients to hunt on the property.

There are plenty of places to hunt in Zimbabwe that are not questionable and lend support to those that are fighting for a change. There is a chance for a change. Support this change.