It is customary to pay in advance for trips. Often, well in advance. This has always made me nervous given the amounts involved and the possibility of something going wrong as well as often having 3rd world countries involved.

In addition, I hear a lot of bitching and complaining about agents holding money. I supposed to agents motivation probably determines whether holding is good or bad.

I am going to give you a prime example of why paying far in advance is bad and why agents holding your money is good.

Early this morning, my phone rang. I knew it was an international call. I figured either Europe (business) or Africa ( hunting). I was wrong. It was the outfitter I use in Argentina for duck hunting. They basically cancelled my hunt as they have no ducks. I am slightly over a week away from leaving.

While I understand, I am annoyed. If I had know this just yesterday, I would have booked a trip to Mongolia instead of the trip to Zim I just booked yesterday.

Now I have the entire trip paid for as well as air charter paid. Plus I have 2 business class tickets that I hope I can get my money back on. I imagine all told, I have $35,000- $40,000 up. I hope my agent is holding everything I sent him.

Larry,

I would love it if African outfitters would have US agents who would hold the money in an escrow account in the States until the hunt was done. Besides the ease of money transfers (My bank doesn't do international transfers anymore), I would deposit extra trophy money and only have to carry tip money and cash for incidentals while travelling. It would also give some peace of mind that the outfitter doesn't spend all your deposit money on his operational costs before your hunt starts and is broke before you arrive.

Just another risk associated with hunting in Africa.
You pays you money and you takes you chances.

BH63

Certainly sounds like your outfitter in Argentina waited until the last minute to tell you about the poor duck hunting conditions. Did he offer you any alternatives?

What Fjold said. I had that happen to me years ago. My PH claimed that he had not been paid by the booking agent/outfitter. After a number of discussions and proof that the money transfers had been made to the booking agent/outfitter, it was finally rectified, but not after some tense conversations and moments.

I have been to Zim once and SA twice. In all cases I escrowed $$$ here with an agent. That minimized the cash that I had to take.
It worked out well, but you never know.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
Certainly sounds like your outfitter in Argentina waited until the last minute to tell you about the poor duck hunting conditions. Did he offer you any alternatives?

They did ask if I wanted them to arrange some tourist things or a hunt with a different outfitter.

I am not pissed at them. Hell, I would rather them tell me than let me get down there and find out. I have been going since 2004 or 2005 with this outfitter. I totally trust them.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
What Fjold said. I had that happen to me years ago. My PH claimed that he had not been paid by the booking agent/outfitter. After a number of discussions and proof that the money transfers had been made to the booking agent/outfitter, it was finally rectified, but not after some tense conversations and moments.

I will almost bet I can guess who the agent was. Same thing has happened to me years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Larry,

I would love it if African outfitters would have US agents who would hold the money in an escrow account in the States until the hunt was done. Besides the ease of money transfers (My bank doesn't do international transfers anymore), I would deposit extra trophy money and only have to carry tip money and cash for incidentals while travelling. It would also give some peace of mind that the outfitter doesn't spend all your deposit money on his operational costs before your hunt starts and is broke before you arrive.

Frank,

I would also love it if we did not have to pay for 60% of our quota up front.

Cheers

Guys,

I understand your point about holding all the money until the hunt is completed but how do you handle a dispute that might come up at hunt's end? The client says he got screwed and the safari operator says he delivered everything the client paid for. Does the agent get to decide if the safari operator gets paid or not? Sounds like a slippery slope to me and a lot more legalese added to the contract. Personally I'm not comfortable sitting on any more money than necessary. When I receive a deposit its off to the operator within 2-3 days. I do hold trophy fee deposits until after the hunt and everybody has been happy with that. This also allows me to immediately refund any held trophy fees if the hunter has a balance left from his deposit. This is particularly beneficial if the hunter has bought a package and does not have a successful hunt.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I understand your point about holding all the money until the hunt is completed but how do you handle a dispute that might come up at hunt's end? The client says he got screwed and the safari operator says he delivered everything the client paid for. Does the agent get to decide if the safari operator gets paid or not? Sounds like a slippery slope to me and a lot more legalese added to the contract. Personally I'm not comfortable sitting on any more money than necessary. When I receive a deposit its off to the operator within 2-3 days. I do hold trophy fee deposits until after the hunt and everybody has been happy with that.

Mark

I agree and that seems like a fair way to do things. Eliminates the need to carry the trophy fee cash with you, something that many worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

I understand your point about holding all the money until the hunt is completed but how do you handle a dispute that might come up at hunt's end? The client says he got screwed and the safari operator says he delivered everything the client paid for. Does the agent get to decide if the safari operator gets paid or not? Sounds like a slippery slope to me and a lot more legalese added to the contract. Personally I'm not comfortable sitting on any more money than necessary. When I receive a deposit its off to the operator within 2-3 days. I do hold trophy fee deposits until after the hunt and everybody has been happy with that.

Mark

Having not utilized your services since you left Adam Clements I'm glad to read this Mark.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

I learned a great deal in my time with Adam.

Mark

Larry: At least your outfitter saved you a trip for nothing. Looking at it from his perspective he did not want to cancel too early in case the bird migration started.
I think dfO6's approach is best. When I hunted buffalo with Martin Pieters, I pre-paid based on the recommendations on AR and did not see a bull but he never returned the trophy fee. Had I followed dfO6's recommendation I could have saved myself a $2378 lesson in character.
On the other hand, I booked a brown bear hunt with Bill Petersen. The first item of business when I boarded the Seabear was to pay for the hunt. I was not offended because I was a first time customer and the outfitter did not know whether or not I was a deadbeat. Bill and I had a great hunt and became friends. As dfO6 says "you never know".

Mark held my trophy fees for me on my last safari and it worked out great!

On my previous safari I took enough over to cover all my projected trophy fees, and it was a big pain, and kind of unsettling to carry around that much cash. (Actually I carried traveler's checks on the advice of my previous booking agent, and that was a terrible idea...)

On my one and only trip to Africa my US booking agent accepted and forwarded all of my money.

Additional trophy fees were held in escrow by him as well.

My African Host/Outfitter requested that I bring US currency with me to pay for my hunt and extra trophy fees but there was no way in hell that I was going to haul that kind of money with me.

A lot more PHs and outfitters have been ripped off by bad clients than the other way round.

I find it kind of interesting the different ways some folks have had issues.

I have been using Adam Clements for years, dating back to Mark's time there, and I have never had an issue with Adam's services. Yes, you have to pay your daily rates in advance, and I have been asked for trophy fee deposits lately, but any overage is pay on return to the states and that has been in the 5 figures at times. Depending on which outfitter is being used, you can even deal with the tips on a pay when you return basis. Overages have been dealt with quickly.

I do know that they had an employee who absconded with a bunch of money, and that caused a few issues, but it was my understanding everything did get fixed in time.

I will say that he does have a pile of legalese that he wants you to sign, but I have had a few lawyers look at it and say it's meaningless... While you may be signing something that gives away rights, you can't sign them away. You always can cross out some of the more egregious stuff and go from there. The language is pretty one sided, but I have not had them balk on anything regarding service.

This whole topic is why I have had concerns on booking more than a year or two out given our recent political situation. With what happened to Mr. Shores, I would expect more than a note saying no ducks and you are out of luck... And unless travel insurance has changed dramatically, they would not pay out on this one- regardless if your booking agent told you to get it.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
I have been to Zim once and SA twice. In all cases I escrowed $$$ here with an agent. That minimized the cash that I had to take.
It worked out well, but you never know.

My one and only hunt in Zim was with Chifuti. Daily fees and trophy fees were paid to Safari Classics in the US; worked smoothly with no worries. I only had to take money for tips and travel extras. I would do it again without a second thought.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

...This is particularly beneficial if the hunter has bought a package and does not have a successful hunt"

Mark, if a hunter buys a package hunt does he/she not owe the entire price of the hunt? Up front preferably?
Of course the hunter and the outfitter might make differing arrangements during the hunt. But initially the package price is the price that should be paid?
Or do you have some method to separate package costs?

Les

Les,

Often a non-trophy ele or a buffalo and even a leopard can be marketed as a package but in reality I can hold back the trophy fee. A PG package might or might not have refundable trophy fees. It all depends how the operator has set it up. Something I'd make you aware of before signing my contract. I think "Package" is just terminology with nebulous meaning when it comes to hunts.

Mark

I generally hunt with the same folks I've known for years. So I have no problem forwarding money for daily fees and trophy fees, with the understanding that anything left over will be a deposit for the next safari. On the other hand, when I've done extremely well, they let me get back to the states and wire any additional funds to cover any deficit.

If dealing with strangers, I can see the advantage to escrowing trophy fees.

I've hunted with four different outfitters in Africa but have never had any issues. Of course all four outfitters post here on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
Larry: At least your outfitter saved you a trip for nothing. Looking at it from his perspective he did not want to cancel too early in case the bird migration started.
I think dfO6's approach is best. When I hunted buffalo with Martin Pieters, I pre-paid based on the recommendations on AR and did not see a bull but he never returned the trophy fee.. Had I followed dfO6's recommendation I could have saved myself a $2378 lesson in character.
On the other hand, I booked a brown bear hunt with Bill Petersen. The first item of business when I boarded the Seabear was to pay for the hunt. I was not offended because I was a first time customer and the outfitter did not know whether or not I was a deadbeat. Bill and I had a great hunt and became friends. As dfO6 says "you never know".

Firstly, my apologies to the OP for the thread diversion but I would like the above poster to just clarify the above post for me.
bobmn, are you saying you paid a trophy fee for an animal you didn't take and was never refunded that fee ?

Gentlemen,

May be we should also look at how we do business in every day life, not just hunting.

No one gives credit to unknown person. Period.

In the past things worked by recommendation by word of mouth. And people tended to listen to those they trust, or act on the recommendations of people they trust.

Hunting is another ball game altogether.

The people holding the concession have to pay for it in advance. The number of animals they can sell is limited. The time period they can utilize is limited, so they have to make sure every hunting day is paid for, as well as every animal on their quota is actually sold, or they loose money otherwise.

I know of quite a number of PHs who were kind enough to let their clients shoot over their paid quota, and never got paid for them.

Exactly what handicapped to a friend of mine in Nambibia and he had to threaten to not ship other trophies...

Some years ago I took one of my sons to Zimbabwe, and used an American outfitter/agent for the booking.

I paid the daily rates up front and then sent him the expected trophy fees, which he held in escrow.

(I might mention, this individual had excellent references and was carefully checked out).

The safari went south, to some degree, and we didn't collect some of the animals we had anticipated bringing home.

When we got home I sent the operator's list of species taken, and requested a refund of the overage in escrow.

The money arrived by FedEx in two days.

I wouldn't mind paying some up-front fees, as I know there are expenses in preparation for a hunt. But I think having an agent on this side of the pond hold the "after safari" funds is a good idea. Anyway, it worked for me.

Paul: That is exactly what happened. You can do a search on this forum and find a thread that explains the whole affair. Here is the thread: http://forums.accuratereloadin...621073702#8621073702

Gentlemen.

I think the purpose of my post has been totally misunderstood.

I have dealt with the outfitter in question since 2004 or 2005. I have sent a fair number of groups to them. I have little doubt I will get my money. I have often personally taken groups of 4 for 6 days and paid the entire bill myself. I am not a customer they would like to lose.

I was attempting to point out two things as follows:

1- When one sends money to a 3rd world country well before the hunt, there is a risk. Depending on the circumstances, perhaps even a serious risk.

2- A lot of people complain about booking agents holding the money. In this particular case, my booking agent has 2/3's of the money. He was going to send the balance tomorrow. Obviously, now he is sending it back to me.

Things like this do happen, not frequently but they do happen. In this case, this type of thing is why the agent holds the money until SHORTLY before the hunt. I have no problem with that. However, those agents who use the client for other endeavors unrelated to the client is problematic.

I sense your frustration over the cancellation of your hunt and understand that, with the build-up of anticipation in the final lead up it can be, and actually is, a big let down, but I also appreciate that this is not your first rodeo, you are an experienced traveler and more importantly a realistic and reasonable person that will understand that when dealing with nature, natural/wilderness places and animals that things can and do happen and you will move on.

Quite a few years back I was operating wilderness buffalo hunts in Arnhemland, Australia.
Towards the end of the Wet season we had a major flood go through my hunting area and it washed the majority of my main access road away making it un-accessable. I was assured by the local council that it would be repaired well before the start of our hunting season but I gave ourselves a cut-off point which was one month prior to the first hunts, ensuring clients would be able to get their flight payments returned, before cancelling the season.
The council did not repair the road in time (half expected) and so we went through with cancelling the entire season. All booking payments were returned.
The following year SOME clients returned, most didn't and we felt the economic impact of that cancelled season for years.

What i'm getting at is that all clients (just like outfitters) are not created equal.

I appreciate that you, of all people, understands that a lot business models would not survive without being pre-paid for.
A lot of hunters do most of their shooting with their mouths, not their firearms.
Outfitters would go broke waiting for hunters to turn-up in camp, based on their non-refundable deposit payments only.

I know you get that, and that is not the point of your post, and I know you are highlighting that at least in this case, and in spite of your disappointment, you are safe in having your forward payments being held by the agent and you are confident of being fully reimbursed (and I sincerely do hope that you are).


Yes, there are risks in sending money to a third world country, I would suggest there is a risk in sending pre-paying money ANYWHERE in the world to mostly ANYONE.

In this specific instance I ask; are you protected/obligated to this hunt with a contract that you signed ?

Paul:

The contract I signed did not require me to pay while the hunt could not be conducted. Like most contracts, there are both obligations and protections. This contract is very reasonable. It spells out the terms and conditions, none of which are unreasonable.

Personally, I do not worry about it too much in some places. Africa for example. My thought is what am I going to do? Sue someone in Africa? No, I am not. Not a chance in hell.

I pay far more attention in US hunts. Face it, people are more litigious here. There is more likelihood of a problem here.

Let me make another comment. I have been injured as a result of outfitter negligence. Did I sue? No. I have had expensive equipment damaged/destroyed by outfitter negligence. Did I sue or otherwise seek reimbursement? No. I am just not wired that way.

Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how one looks at it, I am just rolling with the situation in Argentina. I have been fortunate to go on a lot of hunts. This is not a once in a lifetime thing for me. Things happen. I get it and roll with it. it does once again point out to me the financial risks we take on these trips.

Paul,
I can't wait to show this thread to my Aussie mate. I'm going to tell him the way I read it, he lives in a third world country.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It is customary to pay in advance for trips. Often, well in advance. This has always made me nervous given the amounts involved and the possibility of something going wrong as well as often having 3rd world countries involved.

In addition, I hear a lot of bitching and complaining about agents holding money. I supposed to agents motivation probably determines whether holding is good or bad.

I am going to give you a prime example of why paying far in advance is bad and why agents holding your money is good.

Early this morning, my phone rang. I knew it was an international call. I figured either Europe (business) or Africa ( hunting). I was wrong. It was the outfitter I use in Argentina for duck hunting. They basically cancelled my hunt as they have no ducks. I am slightly over a week away from leaving.

While I understand, I am annoyed. If I had know this just yesterday, I would have booked a trip to Mongolia instead of the trip to Zim I just booked yesterday.

Now I have the entire trip paid for as well as air charter paid. Plus I have 2 business class tickets that I hope I can get my money back on. I imagine all told, I have $35,000- $40,000 up. I hope my agent is holding everything I sent him.

Just returned today from 6 days duck hunting in Argentina. Had great hunting. Where were you supposed to hunt?

Near Pehuajo. The estancia is called Santa Rita.

Have been to Santa Rita several times. Very surprised they do not have ducks. Also surprised The outfitter did not offer other arrangements. I had the same issue ( probably with the same outfitter) and had quite a heated discussion. As they bait daily, how is it that they realized this late that they did not have ducks?

This is very rare ,Larry ,because ,we are in the middle of the BEST duck season ever .We have ducks all over Santa Fe ,Cordoba Corrientes ad Entre Rios millons of them ,send a PM to Patrick Gaudiano he as hunting here with me and another outfitter .Please see photos of this season at my fb .