I wasn't sure where to put this so please move it if i have erred !!

After lots of discussions with your good selves I went away and looked a little closer at some of the things some of you suggested. In the course of this i came across some interesting information out there that greatly alarmed me and i am sure alarms you too, i could not find another thread about this though.

In the course of looking at poaching and why animals are poached and whether or not the continuation of hunting does actually help keep poaching figures down i discovered some things about the legal trading in certain species of wildlife.

For example the CITES numbers for rhinos exported in 2011 do not match, not even close the numbers declared by official sources. One of them claims 72, the other 169!! A whopping 57% discrepancy.

There were also two export permits given to a conservation group for the export of tigers. A species they do not claim to conserve or breed. Unsurprisingly they deny exporting these animals.

Unsurprisingly it is claimed most exports of animals are to places such as the UAE and Vietnam.

When will this all end? Lion bone, tiger parts, rhino horn, elephant tusks etc etc.

And how can we trust any organisation that claims to know numbers of animals when they cannot any of them agree on how many are exported, poached or hunted?

Anti or pro hunting surely all these discrepancies are something we can agree is worrying and needs adressing asap?

Excuse my skepticism, but what is your hidden agenda for this inquiry ?

No hidden agenda just a concern for conservation.
Whether I am pro or anti hunting has no bearing on this thread.
I just wanted to see what the hunting community made of it all.
I already know what the anti hunting community thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

There were also two export permits given to a conservation group for the export of tigers. A species they do not claim to conserve or breed. Unsurprisingly they deny exporting these animals.

Can you explain what this is about? Was this in Africa? Who was the conservation group? Where these export permits for live animals?

There is not a hunter on this board that would not like to see the rhino and elephant poachers exterminated, but it is kinda hard for any of us to get on-board with "your kind" because it seems you all never miss an opportunity to slander hunters and minimize our true goals in regards to conservation.

troll alert

I suppose if anyone believes all the bullshit put out by orgenizations like Lionaid, one can believe anything.

i saw the tooth fairy last night. oh wait, that was an anti hunter trying to do what's best for wildlife... one is just as likely as the other. i was hoping we had heard the last of this troll months ago. no such luck. THERE IS NO LEGAL TRADING IN ELEPHANT OR RHINO. THEY MAY LEGALLY BE SHOT ON PERMIT BUT THE IVORY/HORN CAN NOT THEN BE LEGALLY SOLD TO ANYONE ELSE. VERY SIMPLE!

As Elton John said: The Bitch is Back!

I wonder if Hunter 54 and this clown are the same person?

quote:

Originally posted by mustbhuntn:
I wonder if Hunter 54 and this clown are the same person?

No MustBH, they are different people. Hunter54 is a troll who has been banned on AR before and now uses 2 or 3 other handles to stir shit for his entertainment.

This bitch lives in London, engages hunters in conversation, takes our comments out of context and uses them in LionAid propaganda to line her pockets with donations from the sheeple masses who don't really care enough to research and learn about the lion issue for themselves.

Perhaps one should ask what will become of the Lion in Zambia this season? Will it be like Kenya?
Why not ask guys on the ground like "faigame" how he is to fund anti poaching and convince the locals people that the wildlife IS indeed valuable to keep within those non wildlife Reserve areas.

I actually like the title of this thread.

It is a perfect example of what abunch of stupid hypocrites the people at lionaid are.

It is OK for them to make up figures to pull the wool over the eyes of the un-suspecting public, but I can assure you you have no chance in hell in trying to do the same on us here.

Another point I would like to make.

WE know who you are, and we know your agenda. But we still allow you to state your opinions, because we are not afraid of you.

You at lionaid, however, have shown what a bunch of utter hypocrites you are.

Many people visited ytour facebook page, and posted their answers.

Why did you lot delet them?

And banned them from posting?

All fellow african hunters: PLEASE do not reply to anything this whack job posts; it only encourages her.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
All fellow african hunters: PLEASE do not reply to anything this whack job posts; it only encourages her.

I am afraid I don't agree with you.

Here we have a platform of ope minded people whose sole objective is the conservation of wild animals.

So our kids and grandkids can enjoy hunting as we are doing.

Also, here we don't delete posts that disagree with our pre-formed agendas.

And we don't bann individuals who disagree with us.

Everyone is free to state their opinion, based on FACTS.

Lionaid is nothing but a platform for someone to line their pockets with donations given by un-suspecting public, who are so engrossed in their own silly emotions, that they tend to forget that the meat they eat, the leather they wear, had to come from animals someone had to kill.

I saw a signature line or something similar to the effect; "ONE CANNOT HUNT EXTINCT ANIMALS!"

With due apologies to who ever was the origin.
So jolouburn, if you could possibly try to understand the concept, make an attempt to come up with something that would be beneficial to wildlife.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
I saw a signature line or something similar to the effect; "ONE CANNOT HUNT EXTINCT ANIMALS!"

With due apologies to who ever was the origin.
So jolouburn, if you could possibly try to understand the concept, make an attempt to come up with something that would be beneficial to wildlife.

I met an English woman a few years ago who was so against hunting, that she said she would rather see no elephants than have them hunted.

Can anyone understand that stupid logic?

It could be time to fight dirty.

I posted this back on May 24 when Lion Aid took some cheap shots at Arron Nelson - the links from the original posts take you to the source documents. 24 May 2012 Original Post

This is some background on this wonderful "conservation" group this person shills for.

"A few weeks ago down in the conservation forum, I asked if anyone had any financial info on Lion Aid. Nobody responded and with this last nonsense they did with Aaron’s web site, I decided to see what I could turn up on the Internet. Simply took the position of asking questions I would ask if I were a potential donor, or investor in a company or background checking a potential employee. In other words – normal due diligence. All I did was use the Internet and several search engines to see what public information was openly available via government sites and news articles and various web sites.

I started with trying to find out if Lion Aid is actually a registered charity in the UK – It is. As a condition of being a registered charity, they have an obligation to report their financial info to the UK government annually. I found two web sites that listed simple summaries of the organizations financial status they themselves reported to the UK government.

Company Check - UK
Companies In The UK

Surfing through the various links contained on these two sites you can see from the first link, the publicly reported summery, as of May 31, 2011 but not reported until February 29, 2012, Lion Aid Ltd reported a negative net worth of 12,008 pounds and only 500 pounds cash. Pretty slim for a “Leading Organization” of any kind.

Both sites include lists of current and past “Directors” at or near the bottom of the pages. First was Ms. MacSween and was directed to this page within the UK Company Check site. Ms. MacSween It shows that is she has, or has had, Directorships or Secretary positions in 16 different UK registered companies, 13 of which have been “Dissolved”, one of which she resigned her Directorship, and maintains current Director status on two companies listed as “Active” by the UK, Lion Aid Ltd and one named Dynamic Business Management Ltd.

Clicking on the Dynamic Business Management Ltd link takes you to this page. Dynamic Business Management Ltd According to this site, Dynamic Business Management Ltd has zero assets and zero debt and zero net worth. Clicking on the subsequent links to other businesses she was a Director on, they all list a guy by the name of a Mr. Cameron Angus Charles MacSween. A Goggle search of this name turned up this new article Dover Newspaper Art According to this article he and Christine were married at the time the article was published – July 23, 2010.

I went back and did a Goggle search on Ms. MacSween and came up with this LinkedIn Bio. C. MacSween Bio. Iprinted it out as a PDF file so that the info was captured for posterity. As a person who is an accountant and is a“Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Management Accountants”, she seems to have had a pretty unsuccessful or just unlucky business track record.

I am guessing the two other Directors listed with the last name “MacSween” might be Christine’s kids as all the Internet turns up on them are associations to Lion Aid Ltd.

I do find it curious that the address listed for Lion Aid Ltd and Dynamic Business Management Ltd are the same and it appears to be a residence in a residential area.

Companies at 16 CT

As just some general Goggleing and surfing I found this UK published article. At first I didn’t understand the Goggle link between the lady in this article and our good doctor until after the mid way point in the article – makes one wonder who actually founded the original Lion Aid. I won’t spoil the surprise; you’ll have to read the entire article.
Dailymail Art. It also mentions at the bottom the termination of the good doctor's research permit in Botswana, but might cause inquiring minds to wonder if there was more to it then stated and if it has any relevance? Botswana First Lion Workshop

A Goggle search for “Dr. Pieter W. Kat” and Pieter W. Kat, PHD and peer reviewed and published scientific papers was somewhat hit and miss. One site claimed he had published “more than 70” papers and reports. Seems like those that were published/peer reviewed he was listed as one of the collaborators, mostly on mollusks, Grants Gazelles, and wild dogs. The lion papers seemed to be all self published via his web site and if they run that like they do the FB page, any negative peer review/comments are probably just deleted. It also seems that his “research” on Lions is generally only accepted without question by the ARA and anti hunting communities. I wonder why Dr. Packer and Dr. White etc., or other equally “accredited” scientists who have spent their entire careers and academic studies in lion research don’t make comments on his sites? Anyway…..I encourage others to Goggle away. Maybe others will find additionally intriguing info on Lion Aid to add to the collection."

Thank you for posting this here.

It is just as I have imagined.

A bunch of loosers trying to trick the ignorants to pay them money.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
I posted this back on May 24 when Lion Aid took some cheap shots at Arron Nelson - the links from the original posts take you to the source documents. 24 May 2012 Original Post

This is some background on this wonderful "conservation" group this person shills for.

"A few weeks ago down in the conservation forum, I asked if anyone had any financial info on Lion Aid. Nobody responded and with this last nonsense they did with Aaron’s web site, I decided to see what I could turn up on the Internet. Simply took the position of asking questions I would ask if I were a potential donor, or investor in a company or background checking a potential employee. In other words – normal due diligence. All I did was use the Internet and several search engines to see what public information was openly available via government sites and news articles and various web sites.

I started with trying to find out if Lion Aid is actually a registered charity in the UK – It is. As a condition of being a registered charity, they have an obligation to report their financial info to the UK government annually. I found two web sites that listed simple summaries of the organizations financial status they themselves reported to the UK government.

Company Check - UK
Companies In The UK

Surfing through the various links contained on these two sites you can see from the first link, the publicly reported summery, as of May 31, 2011 but not reported until February 29, 2012, Lion Aid Ltd reported a negative net worth of 12,008 pounds and only 500 pounds cash. Pretty slim for a “Leading Organization” of any kind.

Both sites include lists of current and past “Directors” at or near the bottom of the pages. First was Ms. MacSween and was directed to this page within the UK Company Check site. Ms. MacSween It shows that is she has, or has had, Directorships or Secretary positions in 16 different UK registered companies, 13 of which have been “Dissolved”, one of which she resigned her Directorship, and maintains current Director status on two companies listed as “Active” by the UK, Lion Aid Ltd and one named Dynamic Business Management Ltd.

Clicking on the Dynamic Business Management Ltd link takes you to this page. Dynamic Business Management Ltd According to this site, Dynamic Business Management Ltd has zero assets and zero debt and zero net worth. Clicking on the subsequent links to other businesses she was a Director on, they all list a guy by the name of a Mr. Cameron Angus Charles MacSween. A Goggle search of this name turned up this new article Dover Newspaper Art According to this article he and Christine were married at the time the article was published – July 23, 2010.

I went back and did a Goggle search on Ms. MacSween and came up with this LinkedIn Bio. C. MacSween Bio. Iprinted it out as a PDF file so that the info was captured for posterity. As a person who is an accountant and is a“Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Management Accountants”, she seems to have had a pretty unsuccessful or just unlucky business track record.

I am guessing the two other Directors listed with the last name “MacSween” might be Christine’s kids as all the Internet turns up on them are associations to Lion Aid Ltd.

I do find it curious that the address listed for Lion Aid Ltd and Dynamic Business Management Ltd are the same and it appears to be a residence in a residential area.

Companies at 16 CT

As just some general Goggleing and surfing I found this UK published article. At first I didn’t understand the Goggle link between the lady in this article and our good doctor until after the mid way point in the article – makes one wonder who actually founded the original Lion Aid. I won’t spoil the surprise; you’ll have to read the entire article.
Dailymail Art. It also mentions at the bottom the termination of the good doctor's research permit in Botswana, but might cause inquiring minds to wonder if there was more to it then stated and if it has any relevance? Botswana First Lion Workshop

A Goggle search for “Dr. Pieter W. Kat” and Pieter W. Kat, PHD and peer reviewed and published scientific papers was somewhat hit and miss. One site claimed he had published “more than 70” papers and reports. Seems like those that were published/peer reviewed he was listed as one of the collaborators, mostly on mollusks, Grants Gazelles, and wild dogs. The lion papers seemed to be all self published via his web site and if they run that like they do the FB page, any negative peer review/comments are probably just deleted. It also seems that his “research” on Lions is generally only accepted without question by the ARA and anti hunting communities. I wonder why Dr. Packer and Dr. White etc., or other equally “accredited” scientists who have spent their entire careers and academic studies in lion research don’t make comments on his sites? Anyway…..I encourage others to Goggle away. Maybe others will find additionally intriguing info on Lion Aid to add to the collection."

If you go back to the original link I put at the top of my posting you can see where the infamous Ms. MacSween attended some sort of grand art exhibit opening.

I find this very interesting in that someone with no discernible source of income other than "donations" to a "charitable" organization (Lion Aid) can afford to attend an event like this.

JOLO - how does it feel to know the money you raise and donate to Lion Aid goes to support the life style of people with such seemingly "checkered" to fraudulent past connections and histories?

Talk about sh!t that doesn't add up and "missmatching figures". Pull your head out of your a$$.

quote:

Can you explain what this is about? Was this in Africa? Who was the conservation group? Where these export permits for live animals?

JBrown,
I cannot tell you the name of the conservation agency for various reasons but yes they are an agency for the conservation of certain African species which begs the question what they are doing with tigers in the first place!As far as i am aware yes the permits were for live animals which were then exported to countries well known for the use of tiger parts in medicine.
I will point out this was done legally but why the denial of doing it? What have they to hide?

quote:

There is not a hunter on this board that would not like to see the rhino and elephant poachers exterminated, but it is kinda hard for any of us to get on-board with "your kind" because it seems you all never miss an opportunity to slander hunters and minimize our true goals in regards to conservation.

Point taken but many months of research on the arguments for hunting and not hunting only has me sitting me on a fence. At this moment in time i am neither anti nor pro.

quote:

i saw the tooth fairy last night. oh wait, that was an anti hunter trying to do what's best for wildlife... one is just as likely as the other. i was hoping we had heard the last of this troll months ago. no such luck. THERE IS NO LEGAL TRADING IN ELEPHANT OR RHINO. THEY MAY LEGALLY BE SHOT ON PERMIT BUT THE IVORY/HORN CAN NOT THEN BE LEGALLY SOLD TO ANYONE ELSE. VERY SIMPLE!

jDollar,
My apologies i should have not put elephant as they are poached and this is not what this thread is about. However there is legal trading in elephant tusk as any that dates before i think 1947ish can be legally traded.
The discrepancies i have mentioned though are about and rhino. If trade in rhino is not allowed why do cites have exports of them listed? Check for yourself.
As for the tiger, well do your research as you (generic) have said to me and you will find what i am speaking of.

quote:

This bitch lives in London, engages hunters in conversation, takes our comments out of context and uses them in LionAid propaganda to line her pockets with donations from the sheeple masses who don't really care enough to research and learn about the lion issue for themselves.

This is a generic reply to all those dredging lion aid and my intentions etc up. I would suggest some of you get your facts right about me personally before opening your mouths. I do not live in London though i spent a very pleasant weekend down there in November watching the ATP tennis. I am in fact a northerner living in West Yorkshire. You were only a few 100 mile out Todd!
I have not spoken to anyone from Lion Aid since well before xmas and have not raised any funds for them since i did the auction last year. I have no affiliation with them, earn no money from them. I in fact make a living running a pub and in my spare time run a website for a speedway rider, go to speedway, read and embroider. Oh my god i'm sorry did i shatter your perceptions of me as the three headed monster with horns out to get you?

quote:

Perhaps one should ask what will become of the Lion in Zambia this season? Will it be like Kenya?
Why not ask guys on the ground like "faigame" how he is to fund anti poaching and convince the locals people that the wildlife IS indeed valuable to keep within those non wildlife Reserve areas.

Ozhunter,

I do not need to ask anyone how Zambias wildlife will fair. I am aware of opinions and have read much research on the situation in Kenya.
I did not start this thread with any intention of slating hunting or blaming hunters for this topic.

quote:

I actually like the title of this thread.

It is a perfect example of what abunch of stupid hypocrites the people at lionaid are.

It is OK for them to make up figures to pull the wool over the eyes of the un-suspecting public, but I can assure you you have no chance in hell in trying to do the same on us here.

Another point I would like to make.

WE know who you are, and we know your agenda. But we still allow you to state your opinions, because we are not afraid of you.

You at lionaid, however, have shown what a bunch of utter hypocrites you are.

Many people visited ytour facebook page, and posted their answers.

Why did you lot delet them?

And banned them from posting?

Just what is there in this thread for you to be afraid of in the first place? I have not attacked hunting or hunters.
The Lion aid facebook page is not mine and i have no control over it. I would suggest if you want the answers to these questions you contact lion aid.

quote:

jolouburn,

We raised $1,000,000 this weekend towards the conservation of wild lions in Zambia.

What did you do?

Thomas,

I applaud you. Who is the 'we' you speak of? Are you a conservation organisation or are you going to donate it to one? If you are donating it to one how much of your hard raised cash will actually go to helping animals on the ground and how much will pay for other things? Are you 100% sure all your funds will go to the right cause?
There are many many charities out there that we can donate to and as you are quick to point out about lion aid where does the money go? Or are we all suggesting that every charity you guys support is 100% bona fide whilst the anti hunters only line their pockets?

quote:

I saw a signature line or something similar to the effect; "ONE CANNOT HUNT EXTINCT ANIMALS!"

With due apologies to who ever was the origin.
So jolouburn, if you could possibly try to understand the concept, make an attempt to come up with something that would be beneficial to wildlife.

Scriptus,

I can only wish i had the answers to your question. I truly thought when i came here that banning hunting provided the answer or at last part of it now..........well i'm still as i said earlier sat on the fence.
However this thread is about differing records of exported animals. If records differ we cannot be sure how many have been removed and therefore cannot be sure about the numbers left behind. With no idea of numbers left behind how can the antis claim there are only (insert figure here) and the hunters claim there are (insert figure here)?
Whether you support or not the trade in animals such as tigers for medicine surely we need to be clear about how many are actually exported for this purpose?

quote:

If you go back to the original link a put at the top of my posting you can see where the infamous Ms. MacSween attended some sort of grand art exhibit opening.

I find this very interesting in that someone with no discernible source of income other than "donations" to a "charitable" organization (Lion Aid) can afford to attend an event like this.

JOLO - how does it feel to know the money you raise and donate to Lion Aid goes to support the life style of people with such seemingly "checkered" to fraudulent past connections and histories?

Talk about sh!t that doesn't add up and "missmatching figures". Pull your head out of your a$$

M3Taco,
Perhaps she was invited gratis!!
If i get proof that lion aid are using money raised to fund their own lifestyles then i will feel incredibly angry for sure.
Might i suggest that you also pull your head out of your ass and research what i have said. Just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean you shouldn't take on board what they have said.


Now for those who wish to converse with me can we get back to the topic at hand?

You are a typical bunny hugging hypocrite.

Why did you not say anything when your heros deleted all the posts on their facebook page that they did not like, despite the fact they were all based on FACTS?

Why did you not say anything when your heros started banning everyone who they did not not to post FACTS on their facebook page?

Change the record please Saeed.
We have gone round and round about this stuff and i really don't see how it is relevant to my original post!!

However just for you once more and i'll type it slowly, I have no control over what Lion Aid do. I suggest yet again you contact them and ask your questions about Lion Aid to them.

Tell me Saeed, how important do you think it is to have accurate figures on exported animals?

Tell me Jo, how important is it for you lot to tell the truth?

Jolo - you are either ignorant, stupid or just too lazy to do your own research into the principals involved with Lion Aid. Hell, Katz didn't even come up with the original concept. As chronicled in the UK Daily Mail Article I linked to back in May, the original concept was started by Kate Nicholls the British actress he was sponging off of in Botswana.

UK Daily Mail Article

All he did was re-register the original name from Lion Aid to Lion-Aid LTD.

His (Kat's) current squeeze, MacSween was a Director or Secretary listed on 13 UK registered companies while she was married to her husband, Cameron MacSween - This Is Kent Article Now, with all of his shady business activities while Christine is listed as either a Director or Secretary on all of these failed ventures while being a U.K. chartered (certified) accountant should set off all kinds of alarm bells.

Neither Kat nor MacSween appear to have any obvious form of income other than donations made to Lion Aid. Yet, they are able to maintain a home in the U.K. and travel extensively. IF the odd chance is that either one or both of them are independently wealthy, then why didn't they establish Lion Aid as a "foundation" with their own money, or why can't/don't/won't they donate enough of their own funds to at least balance the Lion Aid books?

Your absolute refusal to see them for what they certainly appear to be, shows you to just be another shill/fool for them and their emotional based "cause" that they use to live off of. Why don't you ask them to publicly post on their website how much they take in via donations and what the actual break-down of expense are so potential donors can see where the money goes.

Saeed,

I'm afraid i can only speak for myself Saeed and i do not lie!!
Now please do me the courtesy of answering my question.

m3Taco,

What does Lion Aid have to do with my opening post?
If you wish to discuss Lion Aid with me i will happily do so but not in this thread which is important to me as it should be to you.

Edited to add, for those who have questions on Lion Aids monies i suggest you ask them directly. As i have stated before i am not a part of Lion Aid and won't act as go between.

Jolo...it should be evident that you have been duped in your association with Lion Aid, and you have painted yourself over time into a state of permanently impaired credibility on our site, so why persist?
We do not trust your intent, inquiries, or statements.

bobgrow,

Thank you for speaking for everyone on the site I am sure they appreciate it.

What YOU think of me however is of no consequence and if just one person looks into what i have said and finds what i found and makes others aware of it then my thread has had benefit.

Edited to add and i can assure you there will be someone who looks into it.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn: I in fact make a living running a pub

Shame on you.

------------------------------------------------------------

'Statistics on Alcohol: England 2012' confirms continuing upward admissions trend

The latest annual statistics on alcohol for England 2012 have been released by the ONS, confirming a continuing rise in alcohol-related and primary alcohol attributable hospital conditions. Alcohol-related admissions rose 11% on the previous year with primary diagnosis conditions up 2.1%.

This comes despite falls since 2004 in the proportion of adults reporting drinking alcohol. Continuing admissions - many being long term conditions - are thought to be linked to decades of rising consumption prior to 2004. Additionally indications that amongst some groups, those who are drinking are drinking more.

Some key facts from the report include:
• A 2.1% increase in primary diagnosis alcohol conditions (198,900 for 2010/11) since the previous year and a 40% increase since 2003 (142,000).

• A 11% increase on alcohol-related admissions (based on attributable fractions) totalling 1,168,300 for 2010/11.This is more than twice as many as in 2002/03 (510,700).

• A long-term downward trend in the proportion of adults who reported drinking in the week prior to interview. In 1998 75% of men and 59% of women drank in the week prior to interview compared to 68%men and 54% of women in 2010.

• 13% of secondary school pupils aged 11 to 15 reported drinking alcohol in the week prior to interview in 2010 compared with 18 per cent of pupils in 2009 and 26 per cent in 2001.

• In 2011, there were 167,764 prescription items for drugs for the treatment of alcohol dependency. This is an increase of 4.7 per cent on the 2010 figure (160,181) and an increase of 63% on the 2003 figure (102,741).

• The cost of these prescription items was £2.49 million in 2011. This is an increase of 45% on the 2003 figure (£1.72 million).

------------------------------------------------------------


Alcohol 'could kill 210,000 in next 20 years'

Medical experts say “210,000 people could die from alcohol abuse in next 20 years”, according to the Daily Mirror.

Several other newspapers have highlighted the estimate, based on the latest alcohol-related harm statistics released from the UK’s Office of National Statistics. These figures show that there were 6,317 alcohol-related liver deaths in 2010, slightly up from 2009. Based on this data, researchers calculated the future toll of drinking and estimated that there could be up to 210,000 preventable alcohol-related deaths over the course of the next 20 years.

However, the researchers’ projections varied quite widely. Their report stated that the death rate seen in coming years will depend on the effectiveness of government policies designed to tackle problem-drinking. They added that it is “within the power of the UK government to prevent the worst-case scenario of avoidable deaths”, and discussed implementing a minimum price per unit of alcohol.

The BBC and other media covered this story accurately.

Where have the current reports come from?
In 2011 The Lancet published an article containing projections of alcohol-related liver deaths in England and Wales, and now doctors have published updated projections of the number of drink-related liver deaths expected to occur over the next 20 years. These latest projections were made using alcohol-related harm statistics released by the UK’s Office of National Statistics (ONS) in January 2012. Today’s article, published online, was written by experts from University Hospital Southampton, the University of Liverpool and Nottingham University Hospital.

Although alcohol-related liver deaths fell from 6,470 in 2008 to 6,230 in 2009, they began increasing again in 2010, up to 6,317 in total. Based on available data, the expert team produced a range of estimates looking at the potential death toll in years to come, factoring in how interventions such as government policy changes could prevent deaths.

In the best possible scenario, alcohol-related liver deaths, which account for approximately one quarter of alcohol-related deaths, would gradually fall to 2,500 a year over the next 20 years. This is the same number of alcohol-related liver deaths a year currently seen in the Netherlands, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand and Norway. In this “best-scenario” case, there would be an estimated 73,000 alcohol-related liver deaths over the coming 20 years. However, if alcohol policy in England and Wales was to remain the same, the experts predict that alcohol-related liver deaths would be nearly twice as high over the same period, with 143,000 deaths in total.

The experts say that the difference between the two scenarios is due to 70,000 “avoidable deaths”. This is a moderate improvement from the projection of 77,000 avoidable alcohol-related liver deaths presented in last year’s study.

When the researchers considered alcohol-related deaths from all causes, they estimated that the number of avoidable deaths expected over the next 20 years has actually fallen from last year’s projections, from 250,000 down to 210,000. The experts suggested that this fall in the number of alcohol-related deaths may be due to alcohol sales having been curbed during the recession, but added that alcohol policy in England and Wales still needs to be amended to prevent these avoidable alcohol-related deaths. They discussed the possibility of bringing in a minimum price per unit of alcohol. This policy has been put forward by Scotland as a bill to debate in its parliament, with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland considering following suit. England is due to publish a new alcohol strategy in 2012.

How will alcohol cause these deaths?
Alcohol consumption can contribute to acute (sudden) deaths, such as from accidents, violence and suicide. It can also contribute to the development of potentially fatal chronic diseases, including liver disease, hypertension, stroke, cardiovascular disease and cancers of the breast and gastrointestinal tract. Deaths due to alcohol-related liver disease are reported to account for approximately one quarter of all alcohol-related deaths.

Who is at risk?
In the UK, the peak age bracket for alcohol-related deaths is 45 to 65, and alcohol is a contributing factor in over a quarter of all deaths in men aged 16 to 24 years.

There is no “safe” limit for drinking, but risk can be reduced by drinking no more than two to three units a day for women, or three to four units for men. Regularly exceeding these limits increases the risk of certain chronic diseases and alcohol-related problems, including fatigue, depression, weight gain and poor sleep. The more the recommended limits are exceeded, the greater the risk to your health.
How much do we drink in the UK?

The NHS Information Centre (NHSIC) statistics for England found that in 2009 the average weekly consumption of alcohol was 16.4 units for men and 8 units for women, with 26% of men reporting drinking more than 21 units in an average week and 18% of women reporting drinking more than 14 units.

To put this into context, there are:
• 3 units in a pint of high-strength lager (strength 5.2%)
• 2 units in a standard can of lager, beer or cider (strength 5%)
• 2.1 units in a standard glass of wine (175ml, strength 12%)
• 1 unit in a small measure of spirits (25ml, strength 40%)

Jolo:

I bring up Lion Aid because you have openly raised and donated money for/to them and Lion Aid is diametrically apposed to all forms of hunting, not just lion.

Then repeatedly come to a hunting website ostensibly to "learn" do "research" and when presented with information you dismiss it off hand and even repost comments on other web sites. Yet, you are are to lazy to "research" an organization you contribute to.

I wonder if your great "concern" over a difference over 97 rhino export records would still be a "concern" if the black and white rhino populations weren't actually saved from virtual extinction by the hunting community in the first place.

The RSA game rancher and hunter's name is John Hume. Read the story and learn what us "evil hunters" actually do. Oh and nobody in the U.S. will ever accuse "Blomberg" the founder of the pub and current Mayor of NYC as being anything close a hunter or gun advocate. Hunters May Save the Species.

By the way - that article was written in 2010. There was a legal Black Rhino permit hunt sold in RSA last year that went for $350K US. That particular old bull was no longer able to breed and was actually preventing other younger bulls from breeding. The proceeds that evil hunter paid went to support maintaining the conservancy the rest of the herd was located on and anti-poaching operations.

While a difference of 97 is interesting this is not about hunters - this about discrepancies within various governmental and NGO organizations. Are you just as alarmed by the international hoax perpetrated by they UN and its now discredited/fraudulent IPCC "Climategate" scandal that has effected billions of people and trillions of dollars globally? Climategate

I for my part believe in dialog. Jolou may or may not be an anti hunter. But at least she is discussing with us. I do not see the need for name calling. We don´t need it as the the scientific facts are on our the hunters side. It´s like the fight against the communist idea in Europe, it took years and years of discussions, but at last most people ended up understanding it dosn´t work. The same way we hunters most carry on explaining and informing those who do not know what hunting is about.

good hunting
Carl Frederik

Bill C, not to mention the effects of second-hand smoke at the English Pubs. Carcinogens out the wazoo.


Dutch

Weather right or wrong you are lacking with your post. A partial truth is still a lie, the way i was taught growing up.

If the information you have posted is on the internet as you claim. then post the web link for the group to look at if they so chose.

All your line items have some claims mentioned in them so be forth coming and post the researched data links.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
I wasn't sure where to put this so please move it if i have erred !!

After lots of discussions with your good selves I went away and looked a little closer at some of the things some of you suggested. In the course of this i came across some interesting information out there that greatly alarmed me and i am sure alarms you too, i could not find another thread about this though.

In the course of looking at poaching and why animals are poached and whether or not the continuation of hunting does actually help keep poaching figures down i discovered some things about the legal trading in certain species of wildlife.

For example the CITES numbers for rhinos exported in 2011 do not match, not even close the numbers declared by official sources. One of them claims 72, the other 169!! A whopping 57% discrepancy.

There were also two export permits given to a conservation group for the export of tigers. A species they do not claim to conserve or breed. Unsurprisingly they deny exporting these animals.

Unsurprisingly it is claimed most exports of animals are to places such as the UAE and Vietnam.

When will this all end? Lion bone, tiger parts, rhino horn, elephant tusks etc etc.

And how can we trust any organisation that claims to know numbers of animals when they cannot any of them agree on how many are exported, poached or hunted?

Anti or pro hunting surely all these discrepancies are something we can agree is worrying and needs adressing asap?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I actually like the title of this thread.

It is a perfect example of what abunch of stupid hypocrites the people at lionaid are.

It is OK for them to make up figures to pull the wool over the eyes of the un-suspecting public, but I can assure you you have no chance in hell in trying to do the same on us here.

Another point I would like to make.

WE know who you are, and we know your agenda. But we still allow you to state your opinions, because we are not afraid of you.

You at lionaid, however, have shown what a bunch of utter hypocrites you are.

Many people visited ytour facebook page, and posted their answers.

Why did you lot delet them?

And banned them from posting?

I am one of those banned by LionAid

So was I. All I did was ask questions relevant to his/their "published" research and links to other competing "scientific" published papers and news articles. Asked them to explain the difference between them - figure a PHD would understand the term "compare and contrast".

Never name called and the last straw with them was when I asked them to provide financial disclosures and expenses - banned and deleted. Only took a week -

quote:

Shame on you.

Bill C,

I know, how atrocious that i participate in an activity that ALL those involved can make their own decisions about!!

quote:

Bill C, not to mention the effects of second-hand smoke at the English Pubs. Carcinogens out the wazoo.

Dutch44,

Considering smoking has been banned in all pubs in the UK for over 6 years............

m3taco,

Whilst i appreciate what you are saying i am talking about the export of LIVE animals not trophy animals.
What i am saying is in no way a slur on the hunting community, i do not believe they are involved. I am just speaking of something i believe we all should be concerned of pro or anti hunting.

Bwana338,

The weather here is mighty wrong, if its not snowing its raining!!
Now whether i am right or wrong that is a different thing altogether.
So many times i have been told to research for myself here and i have. I now request the same of you.I cannot reveal the source of my info and won't, i have integrity.
I have passed on as much as i can regarding something i believe should concern us all and it is up to you what you do with that.

I will suggest you start with CITES and government documents.

quote:

I am one of those banned by LionAid

John,

Nice to see you. This i can comment on, i saw no reason to ban you.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
[
Ozhunter,

I do not need to ask anyone how Zambias wildlife will fair. I am aware of opinions and have read much research on the situation in Kenya.
I did not start this thread with any intention of slating hunting or blaming hunters for this topic.

[

This may be the case BUT I choose to add it as IMO it is the Crux in your ongoing inquiry's and propaganda. The fact is what is happening in places like Kenya and India HAS happened since the banning of sport hunting. A prime example is North Kitui Reserve. Once a Hunting Reserve, now little more than farms with some poached out bush.
Prior to the cancellation of Sport hunting, Kenya had thriving wildlife reserves maintained and subsidised by Safari outfits.
"Spin it" from down town London as much as you want but the fact is if controlled, our way works.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
[
Ozhunter,

I do not need to ask anyone how Zambias wildlife will fair. I am aware of opinions and have read much research on the situation in Kenya.
I did not start this thread with any intention of slating hunting or blaming hunters for this topic.

[

This may be the case BUT I choose to add it as IMO it is the Crux in your ongoing inquiry's and propaganda. The fact is what is happening in places like Kenya and India HAS happened since the banning of sport hunting. A prime example is North Kitui Reserve. Once a Hunting Reserve, now little more than farms with some poached out bush.
Prior to the cancellation of Sport hunting, Kenya had thriving wildlife reserves maintained and subsidised by Safari outfits.
"Spin it" from down town London as much as you want but the fact is if controlled, our way works.

I'm sorry but i fail to see how the export of live animals to countries which use them for medicine, religious icon etc has anything to do with the situation in Kenya, or the possible situation that could arise in Zambia!!

Last I heard, Lion Aid is raising $6.43 million to conserve lions in Somalia, Mali, Libya, Liberia, Siera leone, Maurituius, Antarctica and the Moon.

I hear that the expense account of all the major players amounts to over $1 million each.

They still think there are lions left over from the ice age in Antarctica!

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:



In the course of looking at poaching and why animals are poached and whether or not the continuation of hunting does actually help keep poaching figures down i discovered some things about the legal trading in certain species of wildlife.

Just a friendly reminder of what is fact.
Perhaps if these old hunting Reserves were maintained and stocked just maybe we would have sufficient game numbers to combat this Asian consumption.
This works on a small scale on my family's Deer farm.