quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:


That sums it up pretty well for me RG,like Frank its nice to do it my way.


JPK I did indeed read your whole post...nothing changes,some blokes cut it many dont!

Ahh, that explains it. You want to do it YOUR WAY.

Uhhh, maybe, if you ever get around to it, eh?

Yes, nothing changes, some blokes cut it and many don't. Let me know if you ever cut it and spend some time hunting in wild Africa, eh?

JPK

well since i may of been the first to digress from the guidelines of the topic, my bad.
but it has garnered 4 pages and lots of opinions
i know what i ment by sleeping on the ground and eating my own cooking was that when i do spend "my" 30k in africa i would be willing to
sleep on the ground and eat my own cooking if it bought me 1 more dollars' worth of the experience,or 1 more minute in pursuit of?
5 star camps of course are nice but not
needed for my enjoyment and if i want to skin something i will(foregoing pissing off the skinners)its part of the experience I want to take away from the trip,doesn't have anything to do with being stupid,it has to do with my memories of what may be a once in a lifetime trip.
alot of you are speaking from been there done that multiply safaris under you belt "positions."
put yourself in the first timers shoes or back in your 1st safari shoes,my guess is you would of been less interested in the clean white table cloth and silver not stainless mentality
and more in the i want to hunt,to smell,feel, taste, the flavor,sounds,sights,views.
i want to drag myself to bed each evening absolutly exhasted and not be able to sleep from the replay and absorbtion of the days events.
i want to leave before sunrise and return after dark,i want to laugh till my sides hurt and maybe even shed a tear,smell the flowers and taste the sweat.
i want to EXPERIENCE "hunting" africa or where ever and it doesn't require ice,lit pathways,laundry service
or hot and cold running water.

If I had the money I would want to hunt with...

1) A PH of great reputation and integrity foremost.

2)He had a great area/location with the type of game I was after in good quantity and quality.

3) I would want a hunting adventure and hunt hard for my intended game.

4) And I would enjoy the finest of ammenities the camp could provide.

For that kind of money 5-Star why not!!!

I want to have a BLAST...

Uncle Joe AKA ravenr

Have I taught you nothing? Safari is an "Experience". The laundry, shower and just in general having people do for you is what a safari is about. All the trappings may be equally as important as the actual hunting. Even in the most basic camp that myself and others described you would need to do almost nothing but hunt and brush your own teeth. All this service makes a safari a safari and not just hunt for X,Y or Z.

Mark

As an avid reader of the Safari hunts that actually are responsible for the word being used in the context of hunting... many of these, not all modern super accommodated 'hunts' often in a 'Game Ranch' have basically nothing to do with the word safari...

Look it up ,read about few of the true old timers of how the word means a real hunting journey not some jolly splendid time sitting around on a non plastic chair under a permanent roof.

Yes indeed they did have many hands to do the lot for the hunter`s need`s on those safaris and they had great camps too but they were journeys into the wilds for hunting game on foot and as far as sitting around a permanent fire pit by the bar (swim pool close?) well that wasn't on!

Before you go getting all huffy now,how many of the most indignant of you African Safari Club members have actually gone on a real and truly honest safari?


Go to the library and pick a few books on the subject of how its done in the true sense of the word eh instead of reading 'better homes mag'


JPK,you appear miffed and as far as me wanting to do it my way you do have a problem with that because I dont subscribe to YOUR way?

As in your parting shot I mean which sort of missed by a mile like many of your own poor shots on game...have heard!

Just remember buddy that those old books on true safaris some of which are basically diary entries tell it like it is/was,these modern ranch operations with their guarantee of 10 animals in a week certainly are not safaris!

If I havent done it and you certainly havent
either!

Incoming! duck gryph!

Eclectic best describes me....Love the bush; flora, fauna, et al...Love hunting with all sorts of different weapons, trophies or no trophies, smell of burning grasses & Mopane, shooting stuff up close, or at a very long distance, eating bushmeat, Biltong, drinking from seeps, drinking good booze, smoking cigars, swatting Tetses, all of it...I'm an adventure hunter!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

JPK,you appear miffed and as far as me wanting to do it my way you do have a problem with that because I dont subscribe to YOUR way?

As in your parting shot I mean which sort of missed by a mile like many of your own poor shots on game...have heard!

Just remember buddy that those old books on true safaris some of which are basically diary entries tell it like it is/was,these modern ranch operations with their guarantee of 10 animals in a week certainly are not safaris!

If I havent done it and you certainly havent
either!

Incoming! duck gryph!

No, I'm not miffed, just amused, at you. Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants to do it their way. That way is going to be different in different ways. But what makes you so amusing is that you think your way is the right and only way, ignoring a century or so of real safaris. The arogance of inexperience is common as hens eggs.

My way, as you put it, is adaptable to the setting, but in every case takes into consideration the lessons learned by that century's worth who came before and my own experience, in Africa, on the hunt, in wilderness.

There is a reason why there are skinners, why there are trackers... it isn't an accident, or the result of some grand conspiricy, it is because it is efficient and is what works most effectively. And has for years, decades, a century.

I think my parting shot, as you call it, is right on the mark. Get your shit together and go do some wilderness African hunting. Come back and tell me that your way was THE way, tell me that those dumb SOB PH's and outfitters, past and present, who hunt or hunted in wilderness and have or did for years, decades, a century just don't know there asses from their elbows and that nobdy ever learned anything about conducting a wilderness safari those long years, decades, century.

If you ever manage to get your shit together and go do some wilderness African hunting, I doubt you will return with the ignorance and arrogance bred of inexperience evident now. Go, learn, you won't come back spouting the same line of bull!

If I have missed a shot by a mile, a yard, a foot, even a couple of inches, you will have read of it here, or you can look it up and read of it here. Unlike others, maybe you, I am not an internet hunter. I hunt for real. I shoot for real too, and that reality means some shots are good, some fewer even great, but some are not, some are downright poor, eh? I have shot enough rounds at game in Africa that I suppose a fellow who has never hunted in Africa, like you, might consider a tally of poor shots I have made in Africa "many" shots. You claiming perfection in your African shooting, eh? OOPS, you haven't done any shooting in Africa, you have no clue, at least no informed clue, about shooting an elephant, or a buff, eh? How about your Australian shooting, claiming perfection, eh?

Well, in your next paragraph we find agreement. While I have never hunted one of the ranch style opperations so common in SA and elsewhere, I have to think that the experience falls short of a wilderness hunt for DG. I have hunted the Save Conservancy, which is near a million acres but can't be considered true wilderness, though it has the big five, and found it wanting in comparison to wilderness hunts. I have hunted another smaller conservancy, after all elephant quota was accounted for, and found it even more wanting.

Now, those diaries, those books, yes, I have read many. And that is one basis for my opinion that wilderness safaris now are much like those conducted sixty five, fifty years ago, after WWII, when trucks became fixtures. And my opinion that, done right, what a truck adds is only the ability to stuff into a month what would have taken two or three, into three weeks what would have taken an month and a half, into two weeks what would have taken a onth or more... Not a whole lot different than what flying to Africa has done compared to having to take a ship.

No, you haven't done it. But I have, about as close to what it would have been like 100yrs ago or fifty years ago as is possible today. And I've had the opportunity and the gumpsion to do it repeatedly.

Out going!

JPK

Stewart Edward White had some interesting things to say about the differing approaches to safari hunting by Englishmen and Americans:

The Englishman's point of view is that he objects to "pigging it," as he says. "Pigging it" means changing your home habits in any way. If you have been accustomed to eating your sardines after a meal, and somebody offers them to you first, that is "pigging it." In other words, as nearly as I can make out, "pigging it" does not so much mean doing things in an inadequate fashion as DOING THEM DIFFERENTLY. Therefore, the Englishman in the field likes to approximate as closely as may be his life in town, even if it takes one hundred and fifty men to do it. Which reduces the "pigging it" argument to an attempt at condemnation by calling names.

The American temperament, on the contrary, being more experimental and independent, prefers to build anew upon its essentials. Where the Englishman covers the situation blanket-wise with his old institutions, the American prefers to construct new institutions on the necessities of the case. He objects strongly to being taken care of too completely. He objects strongly to losing the keen enjoyment of overcoming difficulties and enduring hardships. The Englishman by habit and training has no such objections. He likes to be taken care of, financially, personally, and everlastingly. That is his ideal of life. If he can be taken care of better by employing three hundred porters and packing eight tin trunks of personal effects-as I have seen it done-he will so employ and take. That is all right: he likes it.

But the American does not like it. A good deal of the fun for him is in going light, in matching himself against his environment. It is no fun to him to carry his complete little civilization along with him, laboriously. If he must have cotton wool, let it be as little cotton wool as possible. He likes to be comfortable; but he likes to be comfortable with the minimum of means. Striking just the proper balance somehow adds to his interest in the game. And how he DOES object to that ever-recurring thought-that he is such a helpless mollusc that it requires a small regiment to get him safely around the country!

Both means are perfectly legitimate, of course; and neither view is open to criticism. All either man is justified in saying is that he, personally, wouldn't get much fun out of doing it the other way. As a matter of fact, human nature generally goes beyond its justifications and is prone to criticise. The Englishman waxes a trifle caustic on the subject of "pigging it"; and the American indulges in more than a bit of sarcasm on the subject of "being led about Africa like a dog on a string."

--Stewart Edward White, The Land of Footprints, 1913.

And let's not forget that many an old time safari hunter died on the trail, of malaria or other parasitic fevers, or by other grim, and often gruesome means.

Only the ones who lived got to write their books -- and many of their books read like casualty lists!

With such a history, it's no wonder the British preferred to bring a bit of civilization along with them when they went on safari!

quote:

Originally posted by ravenr:
well since i may of been the first to digress from the guidelines of the topic, my bad.
but it has garnered 4 pages and lots of opinions
i know what i ment by sleeping on the ground and eating my own cooking was that when i do spend "my" 30k in africa i would be willing to
sleep on the ground and eat my own cooking if it bought me 1 more dollars' worth of the experience,or 1 more minute in pursuit of?
5 star camps of course are nice but not
needed for my enjoyment and if i want to skin something i will(foregoing pissing off the skinners)its part of the experience I want to take away from the trip,doesn't have anything to do with being stupid,it has to do with my memories of what may be a once in a lifetime trip.
alot of you are speaking from been there done that multiply safaris under you belt "positions."
put yourself in the first timers shoes or back in your 1st safari shoes,my guess is you would of been less interested in the clean white table cloth and silver not stainless mentality
and more in the i want to hunt,to smell,feel, taste, the flavor,sounds,sights,views.
i want to drag myself to bed each evening absolutly exhasted and not be able to sleep from the replay and absorbtion of the days events.
i want to leave before sunrise and return after dark,i want to laugh till my sides hurt and maybe even shed a tear,smell the flowers and taste the sweat.
i want to EXPERIENCE "hunting" africa or where ever and it doesn't require ice,lit pathways,laundry service
or hot and cold running water.

Ravenr:

I hear you. On my first tented hunt I was a little overwhelmed by whole thing. It just wasn't me. My first thought was, I can't believe I am paying for this. But at some point, I got used to it.

Kephart or Nessmuk about a hundred years ago: If I may paraphrase; but we do not go to the woods to rough it, we go to smooth it. Civilization is quite rough enough for most men, we retreat to the woods, to a quieter, simpler time. Camping is a way to get back in touch with one's soul (the inner child?) and a simpler time. We go for "Wellness" and a chance to pit ourselves against the wilderness one more time.

Rich

quote:

No, I'm not miffed, just amused, at you. Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants to do it their way. That way is going to be different in different ways. But what makes you so amusing is that you think your way is the right and only way, ignoring a century or so of real safaris. The arogance of inexperience is common as hens eggs.

But what makes you so amusing is that you think your way is the right and only way,



Geezus havent you been saying much the same all along ffs,oops yes you have and now you have spat it again.

And in relation to this line of yours (below) that readily suggests that you only gloss over my posts have another read JPK and as far as being an Aussie wtf has that got to do with it,yep you are miffed to buggery because some one actually had the temerity to disagree with you!

ignoring a century or so of real safaris.

You might see where i have indeed read many of the true safaris and of the top men of their day.

Have a good read before your outrage slows your frontal lobe down eh ace.

Okay, then - here is the condensed version, once more for emphasis.

Both means are perfectly legitimate, of course; and neither view is open to criticism. All either man is justified in saying is that he, personally, wouldn't get much fun out of doing it the other way. As a matter of fact, human nature generally goes beyond its justifications and is prone to criticise. The Englishman waxes a trifle caustic on the subject of "pigging it"; and the American indulges in more than a bit of sarcasm on the subject of "being led about Africa like a dog on a string."

--Stewart Edward White, The Land of Footprints, 1913.

I would only add, since I do share JPK's observations and experience, that when one is in Rome, there are generally very many and good reasons to follow the Roman's example with respect to doing things in his neighborhood.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Okay, then - here is the condensed version, once more for emphasis.

Both means are perfectly legitimate, of course; and neither view is open to criticism. All either man is justified in saying is that he, personally, wouldn't get much fun out of doing it the other way. As a matter of fact, human nature generally goes beyond its justifications and is prone to criticise. The Englishman waxes a trifle caustic on the subject of "pigging it"; and the American indulges in more than a bit of sarcasm on the subject of "being led about Africa like a dog on a string."

--Stewart Edward White, The Land of Footprints, 1913.

Not much has changed. Because we have a lot of open land left and have a hunting heritage, from the poorest of us to the richest, we tend to still have the same mindset that S E White observed almost 100 years ago.

That said, I still like a shower every day...hot, cold, warm...a shower.

Steve,

I can tell I had a little too much Cab with dinner because my inclination is to post that I am the kind of hunter that does give a flying **** what others think of what kind of hunter that I am.

I am ethical according to my code of ethics, I follow the law, and I try to improve the habitat and herd where I normally hunt, unfortunately for me I can't hunt Africa enough to make a difference there. I just don't care about pleasing or impressing others. I am getting older and more crotchety by the day and do enjoy a certain level of comfort. I can rough it locally for cheap. When I travel half way around the world and pay out what it took me three years working a second part time job to earn I want to be pampered a bit.

You wanted me to be honest, I can't get more honest than that.

Charles

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

No, I'm not miffed, just amused, at you. Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants to do it their way. That way is going to be different in different ways. But what makes you so amusing is that you think your way is the right and only way, ignoring a century or so of real safaris. The arogance of inexperience is common as hens eggs.

But what makes you so amusing is that you think your way is the right and only way,



Geezus havent you been saying much the same all along ffs,oops yes you have and now you have spat it again.

And in relation to this line of yours (below) that readily suggests that you only gloss over my posts have another read JPK and as far as being an Aussie wtf has that got to do with it,yep you are miffed to buggery because some one actually had the temerity to disagree with you!

ignoring a century or so of real safaris.

You might see where i have indeed read many of the true safaris and of the top men of their day.

Have a good read before your outrage slows your frontal lobe down eh ace.

Gryphon 1,

It is plain to see that you are the one outraged. What you ought to be is embarrassed. Embarrassed for pontificating about something you know nothing about. Certainly nothing first hand.

I refferred to Australia because you hunt and so shoot in Australia. In fact, you posted a photo of your deer camp. You don't shoot in Africa because you do not hunt in Africa. No more, no less.

Take a moment to read Mrlexma's post following your most recent screed. As I was thinking of how best to respond to your screed, I was reading his post. "When in Rome..." was what I was thinking when I read his post, and there it was. As I wrote previously, and what seems so lost on you, is that "my way" is based on their way. And their way is based on a century of wilderness safari experience, a century of culling methods that proved unsuccessful, adopting those methods that proved successful. As I wrote, there are skinners and there are tracker, laundry is done daily and ironed for a reason, it isn't random, it isn't happenstance, it is the result of a century's effort of many, the culling of the unsuccessful, the adoption of the successful. The culling, the adoption continues today, as technology becomes availble for example. How much would PH's from a hundred or fifty years ago have given for a GPS, to find quickly and efficiently springs they had had good success tracking game from on prior trips?

Here is a quiz: Why is laundry ironed after washing? Your answer will be telling.

All that reading you have done, think of it and then seperate it into a couple of catagories. One catagory would be the tales of the explorers, who hunted out of nessecity, to feed themselves and their train of porters and other camp staff as they traversed the continent. A second would be proffesional hunters, who hunted for remuneration, moving seasonally to stay with the game. Probably a partial unification of vocation and advocation, but, in the end, they needed to make a living doing it. In both catagories the central issue of hunting and its motivation are entirely different than that of a sport hunter on safari. The different motivation is the central issue.

In the the third catagory fall the diarries, stories and books written by men who went on safari, as sport hunters, like we do now. A few examples would be Roosevelt, Raurk, Hemmingway. There are many others. Re-read their works and you may begin to understand what a safari is.

JPK

Hey JPK hows this for an offer?

I will host you for a solid 10 day hunting trip for Sambar stags with me one on one for nothing,thats it nothing whatsoever except your air ticket..I will even supply your beer (and drink it with you) probably even shout you a few nips of my 21 year old Royal Salute also!

All you need is your hunting gear, I will supply a quality rifle and scope for you.

This is to establish my bona fides with you as this fella can hunt,does hunt and can track a fly across a rock and skin that fly when he gets it.

I don't make such offers lightly!

Its as simple as that and if you look around the web sites something similar might just cost you around $6- $10,000 USD.

July onwards this year till early October....over to you and PM me your details and we can get this up and running asap.

You should be fit as a trout BTW for max success,I will put sambar deer in front of you the rest is up to you.

Meant to add 2011 is ok if you are all booked up with African hunting this year.

Now there is an offer! I agree with gryphon that a simple camp is best for me. I just dont need or want all the fancy stuff most of the time. Give me a comfortablr bedroll, a dry tent or tarp and a good fire. My idea of luxuary would be a beer at the end of the day. I hunt in part to get away from the normal world not to drag it with me.

I say, gryphon1, old chap, if JPK is busy, I may be able to find two weeks of free time.

I do, however, have my requirements for service at dinner, which I trust you can meet.



As for libation, why, old man, I am easy to please.



I shall have my man Jeeves call you in the morning.

As for now, I must blow out the candle and bid you a sweet good night.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Now there is an offer! I agree with gryphon that a simple camp is best for me. I just dont need or want all the fancy stuff most of the time. Give me a comfortable bedroll, a dry tent or tarp and a good fire. My idea of luxury would be a beer at the end of the day. I hunt in part to get away from the normal world not to drag it with me.

Dont know you Mike Smith,never shared a PM or anything of the kind but I know where you are at and I`m sure you know where I am at.

You are the sort of fella that is welcome in my camp and if JPK doesn't or cant take up the offer for whatever reason I might just be able to think up a reason so you can step into his place if so desired!


Some how a fella can read into others posts as to whether they are indeed good hunters or not and I`m sure you know what I`m on about and your line below is so apt. I cant see myself packing a dinner suit to wear on a hunting camp hahaaaa!

BTW they could upgrade the chairs! And learn how to store a decent vintage properly,I can imagine the vinegar coming from that wine rack stored in the African weather...oops haven't been there so I know JS about African weather.

I hunt in part to get away from the normal world not to drag it with me.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, your offer is an unexpected and atractive turn of events. I am interested.

Unless something changes, this year is probably out, I am hunkered down due to the reccession we are facing here. I have been hopeful that I might be able to break free for a quick elephant hunt this fall (September, October here) but it is becoming less and less likely.

This year might be possible, and 2011 should be no problem. I have young children, and the easiest time for me to be absent for any period is during their school year. That would mean September through your early October limit. That also limits lost hunting opportunities with my ten year old son, since the bulk of our hunting begins late October and runs through January.

I am left handed and strongly prefer hunting with my own guns, is there a practical way for me to bring a rifle into Australia?

I will need to get fit, other than locally, I haven't hunted since November 2008, my last elephant hunt, and that one was painful, a good chunk was in the mountains of the escarpment. I had very limited time before hand to get fit. My return from that trip about coincided with our company feeling the first effects of the recession, and my time has been largley consumed dealing with those effects, which continue unabated. But there is plenty of time to get back into "fighting trim."

I don't know what has motivated you to make your offer, but you should realize that I never doubted that you could hunt, that you are competent hunting what you have the opportunity to hunt, or skin, etc, only that you would find sense in what happens and why on safari.

On the tracking, you really need to go to Africa and see good black trackers at work, it is a thing of beauty. I am in awe of their skill, their concentration, their determination and relentlessness. Here, at home, I am a pretty fair tracker compared to most, but nothing, and I mean nothing, in comparison to good African trackers. Even the PH's can't hold a candle to them. I have followed good trackers on elephant tracks across rock that left no sign visible to me, no indication that any animal had ever crossed the rock, but they could see and read what was invisible to me. If tracking is an important element of your hunting, you will enjoy the hell out of hunting DG in the wilderness in African.

I will PM you my email address shortly.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Now there is an offer! I agree with gryphon that a simple camp is best for me. I just dont need or want all the fancy stuff most of the time. Give me a comfortable bedroll, a dry tent or tarp and a good fire. My idea of luxury would be a beer at the end of the day. I hunt in part to get away from the normal world not to drag it with me.

Dont know you Mike Smith,never shared a PM or anything of the kind but I know where you are at and I`m sure you know where I am at.

You are the sort of fella that is welcome in my camp and if JPK doesn't or cant take up the offer for whatever reason I might just be able to think up a reason so you can step into his place if so desired!


Some how a fella can read into others posts as to whether they are indeed good hunters or not and I`m sure you know what I`m on about and your line below is so apt. I cant see myself packing a dinner suit to wear on a hunting camp hahaaaa!

BTW they could upgrade the chairs! And learn how to store a decent vintage properly,I can imagine the vinegar coming from that wine rack stored in the African weather...oops haven't been there so I know JS about African weather.

I hunt in part to get away from the normal world not to drag it with me.

[/QUOTE]

We are all beating a dead horse. But take the opportunity to go back and reflect on the post of those who have been on wilderness safaris and those who have not been to Africa yet.

There is a divide, and there is a reason for that divide!

And believe me when I tell you that no matter how basic or how plush your safari camp you won't be dragging the normal world with you.

On that note, I will tell you that bringing a SAT phone with you, which I have had to do to stay in touch with my office, is a tremendous mistake if it can be avoided at all.

JPK

Gryphon 1,

I have been thinking about what would be a reasonable counter gesture.

I believe I have found one.

If we do this hunt for Sambar that you propose, and we get along decently and there is enough cold beer, I will invite you to join me for a week or ten days on my next elephant hunt following our Sambar hunt and throw in a tuskless elephant permit and trohy fee and associated hunting and camp costs.

You will need only to arrive in camp the designated day. And I can probably arrange transport as well.

That probably would be April or May, September or October 2012, maybe late October 2011.

JPK

My Yank mate from NM is a left handed shooter and as he came straight to Aus from Iraq where he was working for five years it was too hard to get his own rifle from NM into Iraq then Aus so he used my Mauser `98 308 Norma mag.

Its right handed but boy could he shoot it. Its now a 358 Norma mag....perfect for you!

Motivation? just to let people know that i`m no bull shitter internet/keyboard hunter and yes I acknowledge that I haven't been to Africa and "safaried' yet why on earth would I be no different in coming up with the goods IF I had the money and the guide like every one else has?

Thats the only thing that stops me from rolling into Africa and giving it too m`bogo or chui or fisi or whatever else is on the menu is the funding,simple as that,five kids a few wives and I`m poor hahaha.

Tracking? I dont doubt that native Africans can track superbly,they have carried the white man for ever..Aboriginal Australians are renowned for their tracking ability and if it came down to a betting game i doubt if they would be surpassed.


I`m a young 57 soon to be 58 and want to get as much hunting as possible as I can,Hog deer in Gippsland (Aus) in April... Tahr in May in NZ,Chamois there too hopefully, thats a 9 hour walk into camp from the car park and I aint looking forward to the 9 hours walk back after ten days in them tahr high hills haha!


Hunting is so addictive and we routinely hunt 3-4-5-6- days, often every day of the week for months on end even if its just with a camera..because we can and because we want that big un for the wall and they are hard to come by,one learns or should learn a lot by hunting a lot.
I`m still beaten regularly by the deer and thus its still a learning curve.

I reckon a good hunter from anywhere could go just about any where and be a good hunter there also.

Any way have a good think about it as i said the offer wasnt made lightly.

Just got a reply notification in my email inbox as I had posted my last reply and hadn't seen your last post JPK.

I`m actually heading out the door to go where?
For a sambar hunt till dark,I`m not in deadly ernest as yet as the big boys or most havent rubbed out yet and thus I wont carry my old 7mm with me...its more of a pre season scout.

I will get back to you re your gracious counter offer,though I certainly wasnt looking for one i would jump at the chance of course.

Very gracious offer I may add.

quote:

I reckon a good hunter from anywhere could go just about any where and be a good hunter there also.

Yes, this is undoubtably true. But you speak of the learning curve, it is there for every game animal. You hunt a lot on your home turf, you hunt hard, but you still get beaten by the deer, eh? There is always more to learn.

How much can you learn about elephant hunting in two weeks or a month, even having read every printed word, seen every video of it? Worse, you can end up like so many of the footnotes Mrlexma reffered to, in those old books, a smear of strawberry jam on the dirt, your boots with your feet still in them burried with your hat and your ammo belt, in a grave marked by a stone pile.

That is why PH's are apprentices with PH mentors first and why sport hunters have PH's. My goal is to become proficient enough to run my own elephant safari, from finding where the eles are moving to find track to planning and making the final approach, with the Ph acting as mentor, journeyman to apprentice. I was at one point closer than I am now, but I will get there.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
My goal is to become proficient enough to run my own elephant safari, from finding where the eles are moving to find track to planning and making the final approach, with the Ph acting as mentor, journeyman to apprentice. I was at one point closer than I am now, but I will get there.

JPK

Now you sound like LV Eric [not that it is a bad thing, I just remember his expressing the same goal]. Good luck with the recession. It has been a bit of a she dog for sure.

I would do about any style of hunt, except for one where the game is inside a fence. The more remote, the better. I usually sleep in a bag on the ground, but would like to try one of the luxury hunts for sure. I have close friends and know folks that will pay $100,000 in the wink of an eye to do top end hunts in Africa, and they do it a LOT!
I'd do it, but can't afford it. I hunt about every week for something here, and usually just jump in the Jeep, and head to the hills for a day hunt. But I rarely plan ahead for a hunt, because I can be in the hunting fields in about 15 minutes in any direction from home, and just take it for granted that I will be hunting every week.
My dream hunt would be an Alaskan Brown Bear, and an African Lion hunt. A certain amount of adreneline rush would be nice, or, 'what's the point'! A charging Lion would be the ultimate for me, as a really big cat is the only animal that truly scares me. I'd only need to do that hunt once! As dangerous as a Buffalo, or Elephant can be, they don't scare me at all. Been chased by too many ranch bulls in the past I guess. But a big, fast cat. . . . . . . that's something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
My goal is to become proficient enough to run my own elephant safari, from finding where the eles are moving to find track to planning and making the final approach, with the Ph acting as mentor, journeyman to apprentice. I was at one point closer than I am now, but I will get there.

JPK

Now you sound like LV Eric [not that it is a bad thing, I just remember his expressing the same goal]. Good luck with the recession. It has been a bit of a she dog for sure.

Thanks Charles.

465H&H has also expressed his desire to become proficient enough to lead an elephant hunt from beginning through end.

With his experience, I suspect he might already be able to.

JPK

Part of the experience for me is doing my own thing and not having it done for me. That is neither right nor wrong just my preference. That includes making my own mistakes at times and learning from them. I use the phs in Africa because I have to not because I want to. I know they are good at what they do, been there done that several times. I also know they are there to babysit the client and keep them from making expensive boo boos or even getting killed. Still I would rather be dropped off in a good area and picked up in a week wether whole or in pieces although preferrably the first. I dont want to see people or even signs of people if I have the choice. That is why I enjoy hunting Alaska and the Canadian artic so much even though I hate the cold. The luxury camps are nice and I enjoy them at times as well but it just isnt me.

Gryphon thank you for the compliment and good luck on your hunt.

There are always the self-guided trips that Cam Grieg arranges for those who want to go it alone...well sort of alone.

I know I have been seriously looking at Cams offers.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
A recent thread got me thinking.

Please tell me what kind of hunter you are. Do you want and are you willing and able to hunt Africa:

In a comfortable camp hunting in a large fenced area? (for plains game)

In a comfortable camp in a very large unfenced true wilderness area? (for plains and dangerous game)

In a more basic camp, hunting in a massive true wilderness area where the hunt is as much of an adventure as it is a hunt? (for plains and dangerous game) The camp would have toilets and showers but few roads so a degree of bush bashing would be called for and probably lack a few nicities such as perimiter fences so an occasional visit from lions etc might not be out of the question. Some fly camping might also be expected. Food would be plentiful but fairly basic.

Please be honest though. If you think you're not genuinely capable of a tough hunt for example, please say so.

If you need a budget to work to for your calculations, let's say somewhere in the region of US$30K.

This'll be very interesting!

What kind of hunter am I? Hmmmm. . . The kind that hunts to satisfy his cravings for blood and death ! lol jk.

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
If I had the money I would want to hunt with...

1) A PH of great reputation and integrity foremost.

2)He had a great area/location with the type of game I was after in good quantity and quality.

3) I would want a hunting adventure and hunt hard for my intended game.

4) And I would enjoy the finest of ammenities the camp could provide.

For that kind of money 5-Star why not!!!

I want to have a BLAST...

Yeah, me, too. The PH makes or breaks the hunt, regardless of the amenities. A guy who is a politician and plays games with the clients is to be avoided. A guy who will take you under his wing and teach you whatever he has time to teach you, meanwhile putting you on good game, is the cat's PJ's.

Guys,

Thanks for so many interesting answers.

Although not perhaps immediatly apparent, there was/is a logical reasons for my question.

As I'm sure most of you know, I've been in the business for decades now and over that time, I've seen camps in both true wilderness areas and fenced areas change dramatically.

When I came into the business, many camps didn't have electricity at all. Hot water was provided by the old donkey system, light was more often than not just a few oil lamps and it wasn't at all uncommon for the PH or sometimes even the client to do the cooking as well.

More recent years have seen immense changes and in some cases, (IMO) not always for the better. Hell, I've even seen hunting camps, even true wilderness camps with jacuzzis and satellite TV. I remember some years ago being in a Selous camp and watching the American election on sat TV once. (The one that had all the recounts?)

Whilst I love a well built and really stylish camp, I'm not a fan of jacuzzis and TVs and I reckon they do nothing more than jack up the price of the hunt unnecessarily.

What I wanted to know was honest opinions of what kind of hunt people would prefer and were honestly physically capable of and would honestly be prepared to pay for an experience of the more traditional kind of hunt without what to me are unnecessary fripparies.

I settled on the budget of US$30K including airfares and trophy fees for a 14 day hunt because I reckon that's cheaper than a TZ hunt but realistic for a really good and memorable hunting experience for the right type of person who can honestly handle such an experience.

Thanks again!

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
If I had the money I would want to hunt with...

1) A PH of great reputation and integrity foremost.

2)He had a great area/location with the type of game I was after in good quantity and quality.

3) I would want a hunting adventure and hunt hard for my intended game.

4) And I would enjoy the finest of ammenities the camp could provide.

For that kind of money 5-Star why not!!!

I want to have a BLAST...

Yeah, me, too. The PH makes or breaks the hunt, regardless of the amenities. A guy who is a politician and plays games with the clients is to be avoided. A guy who will take you under his wing and teach you whatever he has time to teach you, meanwhile putting you on good game, is the cat's PJ's.

The most important thing for a good hunt is not the accomodations, it is the PH. Shitty PH=lots of hand wringing. Good PH: Great hunt.

Goes for guided hunts in NA as well.

Ideally, I would like a physically challenging hunt in a remote wilderness setting. I would prefer a comfy bed/camp, but wouldnt turn down a spike camp/roughing it scenario. At this stage of my life, I'm probably capable of handling any physical requirements (as long as it doesnt involve heights- deathly afraid), and I dont mind hunting hard for a trophy, in fact it adds to its value.

That said, my next safari will include my sweetie, so I'm hoping the amenities will suit the basic needs for a happy woman!

Having hunted once behind wire in RSA, and once in the Selous, I've vowed to avoid game fences at all costs. I love that wild, remote feeling.

And, I really enjoyed hunting WITH a PH who I can learn from, and become friendly with, who (at least pretends to) values the clients input.

quote:

When I came into the business, many camps didn't have electricity at all. Hot water was provided by the old donkey system, light was more often than not just a few oil lamps and it wasn't at all uncommon for the PH or sometimes even the client to do the cooking as well.

More recent years have seen immense changes and in some cases, (IMO) not always for the better. Hell, I've even seen hunting camps, even true wilderness camps with jacuzzis and satellite TV.

I like to be able to see but i do not care if it is by candle, lamp, or solar electric. I like a hot shower, and a fire under a 55-gallon drum is fine for that. I want decent food, regardless of who cooks.

I do not need or want television, jacuzzis, etc.

Steve,
Honestly speaking the US$30K is my first limit followed by the phisically capable limit. But I do not pretend to follow on foot an elephant for a pair of days, or to do something out of my possibilities.

But for sure I do not need so much to enjoy a hunting trip.

I think , rather, that the real problem is that NOW there is a hunting Industry that try to satisfy international hunters, and works on the same wavelenght of the governments, that ave income from taxes and fees on hunt.
Many messages put in evidence the difference between the self managed hunts and the organized or professional African hunts.

We have today a hunting tourism industry, and the logic of industry brings to standardize everything.
Even if, honestly speaking, I'm a little envious of people working in this industry because, even if they have more or less the same life everyday, it is never so annoying and monotonous as is working in an office.

Steve,

I definitely don't need or want TV, a pool, or phones. At least not a phone that the office can reach me at. I started to say no jacuzzi, but I'm really feeling the weather today so a jacuzzi is sounding pretty good.

In reality on my only safari so far I did not have enough time in the evenings without other distractions. By the time we cleaned up a bit for dinner, spent time before and after dinner around the fire pit with the other couple of hunters in camp discussing the days hunts it was time for bed. I never saw a TV and sure didn't miss it.

From viewing some of the websites and looking at brochures at the DSC convention I saw that if I was looking at things in the 30K range most of the camps were much nicer and better appointed than ours. I guess if I was traveling with family members that were going to stay in camp during the day it would have made sense, but we just didn't spend much time in camp.

CharlesL