quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I wear the outfitter, guide, agent and client hat, so my perspective has several views into this. A very well written article-very thought provoking. I tend to agree with Andrew that true friendships, that work both ways, often develop over the years. We are all individuals, all with personalities. Throw in stress, physical and mental, and cracks in our personalities show up. In both PH\ guide AND client. Poor behavior in either is not conductive to a quality experience. To be very clear, MANY clients are simply difficult by nature, from the booking to the safari. They are not fun to hunt with , talk to, or be around in general. But a professional will do his best to deliver a good hunt all the same. I certainly know some PH's with entitled attitudes, who simply tolerate clients. I have 'helped' some of these guys find work elsewhere. As in "fire him!" It is the wrong attitude to bring to your job. If you don't like the money, rates, area, people who pay your salary there is always barber school! This type of PH gives the profession a bad taste. But I do believe he is in the VAST minority. Articles like this make you think, which is good. But we all see the safari experience through the filter of our personal experiences. I know folks who had bad experiences on the first couple of safari, and would not go back if someone bought the hunt for them. A shame. On the other hand, have fun with a PH you enjoy, and you will return. I do , however, know many very solid personal friendships that have formed between PH's and clients. The common denominator? GOOD MEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RELATIONSHIP!
Good job Steve!

Thank you Dave.

You have put it very well.

That is a good reason to hunt with a PH you can feel comfortable with. And of course him comfortable with you as a client.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I wear the outfitter, guide, agent and client hat, so my perspective has several views into this. A very well written article-very thought provoking. I tend to agree with Andrew that true friendships, that work both ways, often develop over the years. We are all individuals, all with personalities. Throw in stress, physical and mental, and cracks in our personalities show up. In both PH\ guide AND client. Poor behavior in either is not conductive to a quality experience. To be very clear, MANY clients are simply difficult by nature, from the booking to the safari. They are not fun to hunt with , talk to, or be around in general. But a professional will do his best to deliver a good hunt all the same. I certainly know some PH's with entitled attitudes, who simply tolerate clients. I have 'helped' some of these guys find work elsewhere. As in "fire him!" It is the wrong attitude to bring to your job. If you don't like the money, rates, area, people who pay your salary there is always barber school! This type of PH gives the profession a bad taste. But I do believe he is in the VAST minority. Articles like this make you think, which is good. But we all see the safari experience through the filter of our personal experiences. I know folks who had bad experiences on the first couple of safari, and would not go back if someone bought the hunt for them. A shame. On the other hand, have fun with a PH you enjoy, and you will return. I do , however, know many very solid personal friendships that have formed between PH's and clients. The common denominator? GOOD MEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RELATIONSHIP!
Good job Steve!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the kind words. I think you really get my point. All these musing I speak of, are experienced throughout my international hunting. It's not like "all" of these things occurred/occur on one safari.

My last "big" trip was 21 days in CAR for Bongo/LDE. I had Mike Fell for a PH. He was competent, friendly, knowledgeable, very hard working. We got along fine, never a cross word or anything that happened that I would change.

However, At the end of the safari, I handed him a tip, shook his hand and left. I got exactly what I paid him for and he got what was expected out of me.

I think that was probably the most enjoyable safari I have ever had. It was also the first one I went into with the "business" mentality.

Just because I look at it as a business relationship, doesn't preclude me from having a great time. Just my expectation of "more" wasn't there.

Frankly, I am a bit surprised by the reaction of the forum. I completely expected to have my azz handed to me. Shows just how wrong we can be at times.

Steve

In reading & thinking about this post, I only have my experiences to consider & that is only 3 safaris. Two were with the same outfitter/PH.
Come as clients leave as friends. Maybe-Maybe Not.
I certainly learned an awful lot from Joof Lamprecht & enjoyed his company very much.
Have we stayed in touch? No. Yet he & his wife Marina would certainly be welcomed guest in my home anytime.
Having hunted with Thierry Labat only once, I have tried to return to hunt with him again, but can't seem to get things worked out on my end.
We do sporadically e-mail each other, but certainly not often, just as much my fault as his.
He, his wife Suzie & their son will always be welcome to stay with us.
Would I invite friends over to meet them? You bet! They have seen & done things that the stories would entertain my friends & me as well.
Are they heroes of some sort? Not in my book.
But they are most interesting people living a life of adventure in a wonderful land dealing with the highs & lows that are Africa & I genuinely enjoy their company & sundowner stories.
Was I the "client" that was joked about when I left? Don't know & am not sure I care very much.
Friends are someone you build a bond with & know they will have your back when you need them. IMHO that takes time & a safari or two usually isn't long enough to develop that kind of relationship.
I have MANY acquaintances, but only a small handful of FRIENDS.
Friends are someone you'd give a lung to if they needed it & would try to talk out of doing the same for you.
Just my thoughts.

Africa is so large I never yet have hunted the same ground or even with the same people if I did it would be elephant and only because of the restrictive elephant hunting

sad but true that the ph more often than not thinks he is doing god a favor to take a clients business tips and good will just to get said client through the obligatory hunt

then there are the bad ones

it only takes a few hunts to get wind of the smell fleshed out in this story

its spot on for the most part

but only way to kill an eland so

Great read Steve. You drive home a good point about the guiding aspect of the industry. I have one outfitter/guide that I consider to be a good friend and we talk regularly. There is one other but we don't talk often, although he refused a tip and has since asked myself and my hunting partner to return and hunt for free as friends. I cannot say that I've personally had any bad guides but I have felt the pressures of doing the odd thing you didn't expect to or want to come up, as well as being rushed along at certain points on one particular hunt.

An uncle of mine was a respected guide in the Yukon and northern B.C. for about 20 years. I've heard countless stories about "the client". Some good, some bad, and some comical. These stories I'm sure were shared with clients, and in my opinion, were no different than buddies trading stories around a campfire.

My insight into the "bad egg" side comes from a month that I worked for a well known (featured in magazines, tv shows, and a major player with some hunting organizations) Yukon outfitter. I was fresh out of high school (although I was accustomed to working 8-12 hours a day after school on a farm) and went to work for said outfitter as a wrangler. In the month it took me to quit, this man insulted clients, guides both current and past, other outfitters, a friend of mine that I had found out passed away just moments before, and had an endless list of other complaints. It turned out that I was cheap labour brought in to help another guy build him a fence on his ranch and that I might get into the hunting camp to help in mid september. Since then, a taxidermist I know did a hunt with him. While he and his group took their animals, he said that the outfitter pretty much ruined the experience for all.

Thinking about my closest friends,heck, even not so close friends, I can't think of a single friendship that started by me mailing them a five figure check.

Steve, I only have about half the number of trips abroad as you 16, 17 not sure any longer, most to Africa. Rarely have I hunted with the same PH in the same area, maybe twice. I do feel I have some friendships with some of the Ph's I have hunted with. I know they have my back and I would have theirs, but as they live on the other side of the pond it is harder to keep them as close as you do your friends here. Being self employed I have customers/clients that I really like and we have become friends. I have those that are a pain in the ass. As do the guys we hunt with. I don't hero worship any of them but as someone said they do live a very interesting life and are generally interesting people. We have many things in common and they are generally easy to talk to. I am old enough to tell when someone is liking me for what I can spend or give them as opposed to when I see someone after a long time they are happy to see me. I figured out long ago it takes two for a true friend ship and I have culled some over the years and will likely cull a few more. I think sometimes you click with people and sometimes you don't. I really think it's that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:


However, At the end of the safari, I handed him a tip, shook his hand and left. I got exactly what I paid him for and he got what was expected out of me.

I think that was probably the most enjoyable safari I have ever had. It was also the first one I went into with the "business" mentality.



Steve

Seems that over time you have evolved an attitude and an expectation level about what a booked guided hunt has to offer you and you are happier for it.

On many levels, I find this thread saddening.

Personally, regardless of the activity, me being the client for a safari or my having a client for a legal matter.... meeting someone at church, at the golf course or when socializing for the first time with a husband of one of my wife's friends, seeing a new doctor at the V.A... or whatever... I think I'd be missing some wonderful opportunities if I didn't hold myself open to making a true friend or two.

And if someone takes advantage of my openness to friendship (of whatever level), maybe they are the one missing out? At least that's what my mother would say.

The worst thing that could happen is that someone took a bit of advantage of me. Heck, I can get over that.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
On many levels, I find this thread saddening.

Personally, regardless of the activity, me being the client for a safari or my having a client for a legal matter.... meeting someone at church, at the golf course or when socializing for the first time with a husband of one of my wife's friends, seeing a new doctor at the V.A... or whatever... I think I'd be missing some wonderful opportunities if I didn't hold myself open to making a true friend or two.

And if someone takes advantage of my openness to friendship (of whatever level), maybe they are the one missing out? At least that's what my mother would say.

The worst thing that could happen is that someone took a bit of advantage of me. Heck, I can get over that.

Ernest,

I've been watching this thread and refrained from commenting because I had not the words to describe what you have shared and in the same mannerism my friend.

I walk to the same drummer...

Well said!

I have to say that many of my most treasured and enduring friendships have come from hunting though....... some are with other PHs & Outfitters and others from clients.

They know who they are so I won't embarrass them by naming them.

Maybe I have been lucky so far. I have been to Africa 5 times now and I have not had a bad experience yet. I think it's a 2 way street.

Even though I am paying my PH for services rendered I also try to be the best client that I can be. First off, I make sure that I articulate what I want/expect out of him BEFORE I book my trip. I do my research and call references to see what kind of guy my PH is. For example, I'm not much of a drinker so if my PH is getting shit-faced every night it would really put me off. Do your homework.

Once there I try to go with the flow. Don't bitch about little things. The PH's I have met so far are pretty tough guys...don't be a wimp and don't embarrass yourself by being one!

Try to understand that things happen. For example when we got to camp for my Leopard hunt my PH apologized that his staff member forgot soap and towels so I had to use my t-shirt for a week to dry off. I told him not to worry about it and I never mentioned it again or complained. I helped out when I could and showed interest in everything that was going on. My life's dream was to kill a Leopard and my PH told me that because of my attitude his guys were bending over backwards to get me one. I have to say that I enjoyed every minute of the hunt, my PH, and his guys.

On the flip side, if my PH didn't deliver on his end of the deal or if he had a bad attitude with me then I could tell you that he and I would have a serious problem out there in the bush. At the very least he wouldn't be getting my money and I would use everything at my disposal to ruin his name and reputation once I got home...I would tell him this to his face.

Anyway, getting along with another guy that you never met before is a 2 way street.

For what it's worth in Africa I hunted with Wayne Grant, David Amyot, John Hunt, Bruce Cronje, Claude Thornburn? and Christie DeSousa who was tragically killed last month.

I am still in touch with Wayne, John, and David and consider them friends.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
On many levels, I find this thread saddening.

Personally, regardless of the activity, me being the client for a safari or my having a client for a legal matter.... meeting someone at church, at the golf course or when socializing for the first time with a husband of one of my wife's friends, seeing a new doctor at the V.A... or whatever... I think I'd be missing some wonderful opportunities if I didn't hold myself open to making a true friend or two.

And if someone takes advantage of my openness to friendship (of whatever level), maybe they are the one missing out? At least that's what my mother would say.

The worst thing that could happen is that someone took a bit of advantage of me. Heck, I can get over that.

I'm in accord with JudgeG regarding this thread. The OP's point of view came off to me as overly cynical and negative. Maybe I'm naive but I try to give any new acquaintance the benefit of the doubt. I've also been extremely lucky in that 95% of the guided hunts I've been on (and 100% of the African hunts) have been enjoyable whether I tagged out or not.

This is AR at it's very best-honest discussion on a interesting and meaningful topic. Hats off boys!

This is the first thread of this type I have read where someone has not gone off on a tangent and messed it up. This is good stuff and I have read each post.

For me, I have come full circle. I started out in the PH hero worship mode then made a few trips and found that they are human like me and like to have a good time while working. The key is that this is work for them and fun for me. I try to keep it light and not pressure the PH's as they have tough job. I have had one bad hunt with Hartley Combrink. I left early and left a small tip. All the rest have been great.

As to client stories, I shut one guy down by asking if he said what he said to me to his "clients" face. He understood that gossip is not good and has no place in a camp I go to.
Let's talk politics or religion but not clients. Further, I hate to hear "well, you should have been here yesterday". This goes over badly. I like to talk about tomorrow.

Anyway, thanks to Steve for sharing....

I have no doubt that there are some PHs that do consider themselves rock stars and do delight in sharing less than flattering tales of hunting clients.

On the other hand, respect is earned by you as a client. I've played both sides of the client/guide game and some clients just are bafoons. If you regularly go away from hunting camps feeling that you are being mocked, and have been mistreated, perhaps it's time to take a look in the mirror. I've made many long-time friends as both a client and guide. I've walked away from a few hunts hoping my path never crosses with a client/guide as well.

I'd say the number of premadonna hunters and guides is likely pretty equal but for the most part, if respect is earned and not expected, things usually go pretty smoothly.

Interesting thread. If a PH wants to talk about me after I left, more power to them; it really doesn't bother me. And if I can be the guy who makes the next client laugh, have at it. I don't think I have ever acted like a buffoon; I have yet to meet the PH or guide than can outwalk me, but at 55 (just turned three days ago), the day is coming. Hell, we all talk about the guides and PHs, don't we?

I am sure it gets quite old for PHs to hear how fabulously rich the client is, how the sun shines out of his butt each and every morning, etc. Or the opposite: this is my once in a lifetime hunt...I saved for ten years for this hunt eating hamburger helper without the meat, so don't blow it.

Steve, you mention a 21 day hunt. Long and very expensive. But to many PH's, it is just 21 days at the office.

The best PHs understand the psychology of their clients. Fulvio Gianola was perhaps the best I have had when it comes to this. At the time, he was old, I could outwalk him, stay awake in the blind better than he could, etc. etc. But he understood what my goals were, listened to the staff of trackers, and we had a fabulous safari.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter: I have yet to meet the PH or guide than can outwalk me, but at 55 (just turned three days ago), the day is coming. Hell, we all talk about the guides and PHs, don't we?

I have no doubt you're in great condition relative to your age but I question whether you can outwalk Jan du Plessis whom we both have hunted with.

We have all had fun in camps and jesting between all is great fun. But when the funs stops and comments about past clients become derogatory and almost attacks, then the line is crossed. Say nothing unless it would be said in front of those spoken about.
Cal

Steve - Not sure why you thought some would hand you your azz? Its your opinion, you certainly should be entitled to it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, some of it I don't. I think those of us who are on both sides of the fence though, might more clearly see the whole picture - but that's just my opinion.

Guiding for 23 yrs and hunting for 19 years on 50+ trips abroad, I've seen great clients and bad, and great guides and bad too. I've learned its often what you make of it, and expectations of grandeur are often not fulfilled. Certainly some clients are inept, and others most certainly are not. Frankly, I've hunted with a few PH's/guides who were inept too. I've made great friends with some of the guys I have guided over the years, others are just there for a hunt - and we rarely speak unless they want to come back. Same with PH's/guides, most have been a good experience and we parted ways until I return, but a few have become longtime friends. No doubt clients/PH's have all thought the same things about me too. I guess I would ask why would you / others have expected something different in the first place?

Regardless of my opinion or yours, its an interesting article - and one folks should read. I just think its missing the bi-partisan perspective of both sides of the fence.

P.S. - Although maybe not prolific throughout the hunting industry, some have been just barely successful enough in business to afford some of the same trips as the rest of the international hunters out there. Perhaps they could add some perspective as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Bud Meadows:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter: I have yet to meet the PH or guide than can outwalk me, but at 55 (just turned three days ago), the day is coming. Hell, we all talk about the guides and PHs, don't we?

I have no doubt you're in great condition relative to your age but I question whether you can outwalk Jan du Plessis whom we both have hunted with.

Okay, let me rephrase that...I have never had to ask a guide/PH to stop because I am out of breath, too hot, need a break, etc. And that includes Jan. But it excludes mountaineering guides and Himalayan porters.

The last two guides I hunted with had to ask me to stop for a rest.

All of which reminds me of the old bull and the young bull story...

quote:

On many levels, I find this thread saddening.

Personally, regardless of the activity, me being the client for a safari or my having a client for a legal matter.... meeting someone at church, at the golf course or when socializing for the first time with a husband of one of my wife's friends, seeing a new doctor at the V.A... or whatever... I think I'd be missing some wonderful opportunities if I didn't hold myself open to making a true friend or two.

And if someone takes advantage of my openness to friendship (of whatever level), maybe they are the one missing out? At least that's what my mother would say.

The worst thing that could happen is that someone took a bit of advantage of me. Heck, I can get over that.

A thought provoking article, but I agree with Judge G. I was going to say many of my friendships began with my clients, and then I realized I don't have many friends. But a few of them did, which proves it is not impossible. (I'm a lawyer, not a PH).

I also have a couple of friendships that I've formed with PH's that I certainly hope are genuine and I have every indication they are. As pessimistic a person as I can be at times, I refuse to believe otherwise.

Good cautionary tale however.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Steve - Not sure why you thought some would hand you your azz? Its your opinion, you certainly should be entitled to it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, some of it I don't. I think those of us who are on both sides of the fence though, might more clearly see the whole picture - but that's just my opinion.

Guiding for 23 yrs and hunting for 19 years on 50+ trips abroad, I've seen great clients and bad, and great guides and bad too. I've learned its often what you make of it, and expectations of grandeur are often not fulfilled. Certainly some clients are inept, and others most certainly are not. Frankly, I've hunted with a few PH's/guides who were inept too. I've made great friends with some of the guys I have guided over the years, others are just there for a hunt - and we rarely speak unless they want to come back. Same with PH's/guides, most have been a good experience and we parted ways until I return, but a few have become longtime friends. No doubt clients/PH's have all thought the same things about me too. I guess I would ask why would you / others have expected something different in the first place?

Regardless of my opinion or yours, its an interesting article - and one folks should read. I just think its missing the bi-partisan perspective of both sides of the fence.

P.S. - Although maybe not prolific throughout the hunting industry, some have been just barely successful enough in business to afford some of the same trips as the rest of the international hunters out there. Perhaps they could add some perspective as well?

Hey Aaron.

I figured the azz kicking was coming just based on the way these things usually devolve into a food fight.

If you read back, you will see that, since I do not have the PH perspective, I leave many openings for the fault or blame to be laid squarely at the feet of the client. Or more specifically, myself.

Can you also please explain your Post Script message? I am having comprehension problems with it.

Regards,

Steve

Most of my best friends are hunters PHs or sportsmen ,many are members of AR.One of them a PH was shot in combat has health related issues i offered a free surgerie and he invited me to hunt in another country -one ofmy bestexperiences ever-
now we are like brothers .
I have another histories like this of true frienship trough hunting .For me frienship with some unique individuals that you meet in hunting fields ,is one of the things that enhance my adventures .

More often than not people who speak poorly about others are in fact insecure about themselves. With all your hunting accomplishments I would focus on the memories of these hunts and the genuinely great people you have met. Great topic and thanks for the discussion.

Cheers

In the final analysis, the hunting business is a people business. It doesn't matter who it is, client or PH, not everyone will like them and not everyone will hate them. It doesn't necessarily mean that either party is bad. Sometimes the chemistry is just not there.

I have probably been on over 50 international hunting trips. Have I met any absolute jerks who were the PH's? Yes , I can think of one. Have I met any that I will call a true friend. Yes, I can think of one. Are there some that I stay in contact with a few times a year. Yes, there are several.

I have heard many stories about clients. Some good, some not so good and some down right sad. I cannot think of a single case where the client was named and berated. To be sure, I have heard many story such as, "Joe Blow has a bad knee and can't hardly walk." I think for the most part, those who I have gone with have the class and professionalism to not berate and name clients.

On the other hand, there are a number of PH's that I am friendly with. We have a few drinks at the convention. I have heard the stories flow there. However, rarely are the clients named.

In the final analysis, i think Steve has a simple message. These PH's may not be your friend as much as you might like or think.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Steve - Not sure why you thought some would hand you your azz? Its your opinion, you certainly should be entitled to it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, some of it I don't. I think those of us who are on both sides of the fence though, might more clearly see the whole picture - but that's just my opinion.

Guiding for 23 yrs and hunting for 19 years on 50+ trips abroad, I've seen great clients and bad, and great guides and bad too. I've learned its often what you make of it, and expectations of grandeur are often not fulfilled. Certainly some clients are inept, and others most certainly are not. Frankly, I've hunted with a few PH's/guides who were inept too. I've made great friends with some of the guys I have guided over the years, others are just there for a hunt - and we rarely speak unless they want to come back. Same with PH's/guides, most have been a good experience and we parted ways until I return, but a few have become longtime friends. No doubt clients/PH's have all thought the same things about me too. I guess I would ask why would you / others have expected something different in the first place?

Regardless of my opinion or yours, its an interesting article - and one folks should read. I just think its missing the bi-partisan perspective of both sides of the fence.

P.S. - Although maybe not prolific throughout the hunting industry, some have been just barely successful enough in business to afford some of the same trips as the rest of the international hunters out there. Perhaps they could add some perspective as well?

Hey Aaron.

I figured the azz kicking was coming just based on the way these things usually devolve into a food fight.

If you read back, you will see that, since I do not have the PH perspective, I leave many openings for the fault or blame to be laid squarely at the feet of the client. Or more specifically, myself.

Can you also please explain your Post Script message? I am having comprehension problems with it.

Regards,

Steve

Yes, I see what you are referring to in your article.

As for my Post Script, I was referring to this quote from your article "Honestly, ask yourselves, could any one of these guys be successful enough in business to afford to pay for one of the safaris that they ridicule "us" on?"

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Steve - Not sure why you thought some would hand you your azz? Its your opinion, you certainly should be entitled to it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, some of it I don't. I think those of us who are on both sides of the fence though, might more clearly see the whole picture - but that's just my opinion.

Guiding for 23 yrs and hunting for 19 years on 50+ trips abroad, I've seen great clients and bad, and great guides and bad too. I've learned its often what you make of it, and expectations of grandeur are often not fulfilled. Certainly some clients are inept, and others most certainly are not. Frankly, I've hunted with a few PH's/guides who were inept too. I've made great friends with some of the guys I have guided over the years, others are just there for a hunt - and we rarely speak unless they want to come back. Same with PH's/guides, most have been a good experience and we parted ways until I return, but a few have become longtime friends. No doubt clients/PH's have all thought the same things about me too. I guess I would ask why would you / others have expected something different in the first place?

Regardless of my opinion or yours, its an interesting article - and one folks should read. I just think its missing the bi-partisan perspective of both sides of the fence.

P.S. - Although maybe not prolific throughout the hunting industry, some have been just barely successful enough in business to afford some of the same trips as the rest of the international hunters out there. Perhaps they could add some perspective as well?

Hey Aaron.

I figured the azz kicking was coming just based on the way these things usually devolve into a food fight.

If you read back, you will see that, since I do not have the PH perspective, I leave many openings for the fault or blame to be laid squarely at the feet of the client. Or more specifically, myself.

Can you also please explain your Post Script message? I am having comprehension problems with it.

Regards,

Steve

Yes, I see what you are referring to in your article.

As for my Post Script, I was referring to this quote from your article "Honestly, ask yourselves, could any one of these guys be successful enough in business to afford to pay for one of the safaris that they ridicule "us" on?"

Got it, Thanks. I'm dense but it usually finds its way through.

Steve

This is an interesting topic.

After five safaris with five different PHs there is not an experience I did not enjoy.

With two of the PHs I do not stay in touch.

With two others we communicate by email and speak from time to time. We always visit at the shows.

The fifth I consider a friend. No PH has ever been to my house much less slept there; however I have stayed for extended periods at my friend's house in Zimbabwe. Katherine and I have been to children's plays, braais, and balls and have always felt welcomed by all.

I have always stayed on safari as long as I wanted. My first trip turned in to a photographic safari for the last couple of days because we finished hunting early. On my second trip I stayed in camp several days past what I booked running around with an appy and fishing.

For me hunting is an extremely personal experience, far different than buying an F-250. If I cannot truly enjoy the entire experience including being with the PH, I will find something else to do. That does not mean we need to be best friends forever but it has to be more than just a business transaction.

Every PH I hunted with has treated Katherine and I with the utmost respect. I also believe they probably have had a laugh or two at my expense, hell I still chuckle at some of the things I have done on safari, I just do not post those incidents on AR.

I love Africa and everything that is good about her, perhaps too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
This is an interesting topic.

After five safaris with five different PHs there is not an experience I did not enjoy.

With two of the PHs I do not stay in touch.

With two others we communicate by email and speak from time to time. We always visit at the shows.

The fifth I consider a friend. No PH has ever been to my house much less slept there; however I have stayed for extended periods at my friend's house in Zimbabwe. Katherine and I have been to children's plays, braais, and balls and have always felt welcomed by all.

I have always stayed on safari as long as I wanted. My first trip turned in to a photographic safari for the last couple of days because we finished hunting early. On my second trip I stayed in camp several days past what I booked running around with an appy and fishing.

For me hunting is an extremely personal experience, far different than buying an F-250. If I cannot truly enjoy the entire experience including being with the PH, I will find something else to do. That does not mean we need to be best friends forever but it has to be more than just a business transaction.

Every PH I hunted with has treated Katherine and I with the utmost respect. I also believe they probably have had a laugh or two at my expense, hell I still chuckle at some of the things I have done on safari, I just do not post those incidents on AR.

I love Africa and everything that is good about her, perhaps too much.

For some reason that reminds of the first shot I ever took on an animal in Africa...my PH and I belly crawled to get within 60 yards of a gemsbok. I got into position and remember thinking it could not be an easier shot. I pointed my rifle in the direction of the gemsbok and then pushed the safety off.

"Boom!" went the rifle; dust flew up 20 yards in front of the gemsbok. My PH's face told me he must be thinking "This is going to be a long safari..."

I had adjusted my trigger too light; I was young and never had that happen, but you can adjust a Rem 700 trigger so light that it goes off if your finger is just touching the trigger, and that is what happened. I tried to explain to my PH, but I could tell he thought I missed.

A little while later I rolled a jackal running and redeemed myself. But if Fritz Hein had a few laughs about that with his next client, I certainly would not have been upset. It was a dumb thing to have happen, but more importantly, he could have had a laugh and then told the next guy to make sure it didn't happen to him.

Headed back to Africa for the 16th time in August. I have hunted with at least 10 different outfits and Professional Hunters in Africa and at least a couple dozen other out of Country hunts. I can truly say I have never had a "bad" time or experience although some were better than others. I have made many good acquaintances over the years on these adventures but count only two or three as real friends. I have always tried to be a "good client", respecting others in camp, and in general not being a "pain in the ass". (A couple of folks might differ on that last one?)

The only two places I ever intend to hunt out of Country in the future are with these two friend/PH's located in Argentina and Mozambique. I stay for 30 days in Mozambique and spend a few quality days with my friend hunting Buff and the rest of the time is just being in camp, enjoying what each day brings along. In Argentina I was made to feel a real part of the "family" something I will always remember and cherish. Getting back there and spending "quality" time again is always in the plan. Maybe I will hedge a bit on the two locations as I would like to get to "Aussi Land" and hunt with a certain AR member who would be a pleasure to spend some time with.

I have always tried to never read tooooo much into a hunt, simply choosing to do a little homework, rely on several folks who I trust, make any needs, wants and expectations known up front, then enjoy the Adventure.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

Friends are someone you'd give a lung to if they needed it & would try to talk out of doing the same for you.
Just my thoughts.

Man!! Couldn't you make it a Kidney. Just sayin'.

I suppose I just screwed up as usual when I did all my safaris in Zimbabwe with only one outfitter who became such a good friend that I spent 2 months a year with him for the last several safaris. Some hunting some in camp and some in his home in Bulawayo or Gweru. I have shopped with his wife and stood in line for bread for them when you could only get one loaf. Have eaten many Sunday dinners with his Parents. I actually consider them my Zimbabwe family. I have hunted with one of his sons on his Farm (which was confiscated) and been to his younger sons soccer matches at his school. I consider all this time magical to me. For my hunting days and trophies I paid the normal rate he charged everyone else. All other days either in camp or in his home I was a guest. Wish to this day I could be sitting there with him watching a Rugby match and sipping a sherry which they magically managed to get for me. I have been on Brai's with they and their friends of long standing. I think I have learned more from my association with them about nature and just life in general that it makes it all worthwhile. Believe it or not and you probably won't but I never actually heard any client stories around the fire pit that I can actually remember at this time so they must have been few and forgettable. So sadly to say my experience does not mirror the article though I'm sure many do. I would not trade my experience for all the trophies or guns owned by the members of this forum. I VALUE my experiences and family in Zimbabwe.

Three African trips and I haven't had bad experience either, that being said I always expect the worst just in case ( weather, customs, cops, camp help, PH, no game or simply bad shooting on my part etc.
If all works out, then all is good as it always seems to be.
Yes I agree with some that expectations can ruin hunt way before it starts ( like extra hunter in camp and so forth, too many successful hunting stories in all the magazines and books we read ... )

I have guided when I was young and it was a hoot and sometimes not. Like having as clients Commie generals and Politburo head honchos and you'd better produce or... so they can show off their big trophies to others.
Being young jagermaister, I sweated it few times, but I lived thru it ...
Those were the days and I always smile when I think about those times.

Love Africa, love to hunt pretty much just elephants, but I think my days are maybe numbered as prices seem to go up and up ... well that is just life. Nothing lasts forever... And I'm OK with it as I dream of elephants...

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

As to client stories, I shut one guy down by asking if he said what he said to me to his "clients" face.

This! Basically everyone talks behind someones back at some point, but it is really bad form to do it both TO and IN FRONT OF the group of people that puts food on your table. A really great way to lose business in the future.

As a newbie who is about a week away from wire transferring a deposit for his first African safari, I read the article with interest.

I think it illustrates the importance of checking references, and also trying to determine the experience level of the references as well. Obviously, a reference from a very trusted source is preferable. A reference from someone with similar ideals and hunting expectations would be perfect.

I have no problem with stories of past clients, if for nothing else than a learning tool of what not to do. I would hope I don't make a fool of myself to make myself the butt of any story, but if there's a teaching moment in anything I do, go right ahead and tell the story. Use my name, I don't care. I don't drink, so I don't foresee making a fool out of myself that way. If I'm hunting, I'm almost always in a good mood. I can take ball-busting or locker-room type banter with the best of them, and dish it out too (in the mornings, just let me have a chew of Skoal and a caffeine drink before you start giving me grief)

I would hope that the PH can recognize that while new to Africa, I'm no newby to hunting in general. My biggest problem may be NOT trying too hard to prove that I'm not some jackwagon that just wants to kill and go home, and doesn't hunt much

I like to think I'm easy to get along with, and my expectations are exceedingly low. It will be a short time hunt as part of a larger anniversary trip (just 6 hunting days), where I want to use a bow a little. I want a kudu, bushbuck and black wildebeest. The hunt will be a roaring success if I can take one of the spiral horns with my bow, and a black wildebeest with a rifle. Literally I hope to kill just 2 animals. More would be great, but not expected. And I don't even "expect" to kill anything with my bow. Just hope.

The hunt will only be a disappointment if the PH treats me like crap, and I never see an animal.

I'm also not afraid to speak up if something isn't up to my personal standards or ethics. I've done it on hunts before. I can't imagine accommodations or food would cause that, or personal service. I won't shoot from a vehicle (unless it's a wounded animal scenario). The PH will not grab me by the collar and pull me around like an errant 4 year old. And I won't take a bow or rifle shot I'm not confident I can make in the conditions or distance.

My expectations of PH are low. No hand-holding needed, let's have some fun, see some new country, don't shoot anything immature, and let's hit it hard. Let's hunt dark to dark for the short time I'm there, and hopefully kill an animal or two. If we spot something, let's plan the stalk together. If we're sitting a blind, we can talk some, or we can be quiet and watch animals. You wanna park me in the blind for an evening and go sit a hill somewhere else to scout for the morning, sounds like a plan to me. You think I'm too green to sit by myself in the blind, that's fine too. I am green. Stick with me and tell me funny stories about past clients

Finally going to make this safari dream a reality, even if it is a short hunt with low expectations. It would really have to be something awful to completely ruin it for me

Bake

Bake
I hope you have a blast!
Sounds like you have a very good attitude about it.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
On many levels, I find this thread saddening.

Personally, regardless of the activity, me being the client for a safari or my having a client for a legal matter.... meeting someone at church, at the golf course or when socializing for the first time with a husband of one of my wife's friends, seeing a new doctor at the V.A... or whatever... I think I'd be missing some wonderful opportunities if I didn't hold myself open to making a true friend or two.

And if someone takes advantage of my openness to friendship (of whatever level), maybe they are the one missing out? At least that's what my mother would say.

The worst thing that could happen is that someone took a bit of advantage of me. Heck, I can get over that.

+1

Well said JudgeG.

No African experience what so ever, but having a little experience here in the states and in Canada, both as a client and as a guide, the best way to get things off to a good start and allow the best relations in a camp, is for all parties to be open and honest with each other and themselves concerning all aspects of the hunt.

Clients need to show up at camp and be totally honest about their abilities and experience level and what type/size trophies they desire. The PH or guide needs to fully describe what a normal days hunt for the species sought will entail and a realistic estimation of the trophy potential in the area being hunted.

Having an over weight/out of shape hunter that is a mediocre shot at best and only interested in representative specimens, paired up with a really topnotch PH/Guide that hunts hard and specializes in book or the various medal class animals is a recipe for friction.

It is difficult at best to not talk about someone that keeps singing his/her own praises when they cannot keep up with the PH/Guide while stalking something and then when they do get into a position to shoot something with that high dollar rifle rig they bought especially for that trip and they have a hard time hitting dirt.

For the majority of humans, it is easier to discuss what we feel are the short comings of others than accepting the fact that all of us have our own short comings.

Just my opinion, nothing more.