I thought I would break this out of the “Very Critical Hunt Report by Karl” because that post has probably run its course. First let me say that I have used escrow accounts with two different brokers for two different hunts in Africa and have had no problems whatsoever. I would however like to get some feedback from some booking agents on this site to clear up what has to date been a bit of a mystery to me. I have on both previous hunts escrowed the entire amounts that needed to be paid to the outfitter including daily rates, trophy fees, government fees, and outfitter travel expenses. The only cash I took were for tips. I do know that the trophy fees were wired after the hunt and after contact with the broker, but I have know idea when and how much of the other amounts were sent. So, in order to help with what I think others would like to know, can some booking agents provide some insight into the following:

1. At what points are the deposits sent overseas? Most hunts, mine included, had a breakdown on a percentage up front, a percentage a year out, and then the remainder 60 days before the hunt. Are all these amounts being wired at those times? In most cases it seems like the outfitter has all the daily rate funds sent even before the hunter hits the ground, but that impression may be wrongly coming from some of the problem hunt posts here.

2. If the answer to the above is no and that some of the non-trophy fee amounts are truly being held in escrow, what are the conditions that would allow a booking agent to withhold payment to the outfitter? Is this something laid out in a contract between them?

I think the answers to these questions will help a lot of us to understand what our options are when things go wrong and then we will then know who to pressure and perhaps more importantly, who not to pressure.

I certainly hope others are more successful at this than I was.

I tried to use Thomas Powers of Powers International as a booking agent who would escrow my funds in the states and then send funds when I reported after my return home. I had agreed that the initial deposits would be made immediately.
Fortunately for me I was not able to contact Powers or anyone in his business a couple of weeks before leaving on the hunt. I had decided to expand my hunt to include sable and hippo and wanted to send additional cash. Since no one responded to my messages and e-mail, I contacted the PH I had been talking with and sent him the added funds.
When I arrived in Zimbabwe I found that Powers had never sent funds, never sent my contract info forward and had not been heard from for some time.

The owner of Nyala safaris allowed me to hunt for the 11 days I originally wanted which was nearly covered by the added funds I had sent forth and I was asked to contact Powers and get the funds forwarded. Luckily I had all the correspondence and e-mails in which he ackowledged receipt of the $7500 I had sent him.
I have yet to hear from Powers, I have yet to receive another repsonse from calling repeatedly and sending letters, e-mails and certified copies of the postal fraud paperwork.
His daughter sent me an e-mail a few weeks after my return telling me he was in Kenya and wanted to talk with me about the hunt but still no communication. I had planned on using his expediter service to bring my trophies back but that is also a shell company covered by a web page and no more.
Powers is a crook and I would warn anyone to stay away from anything having to do with him.


So, I am in no way accusing honest agents and will use another on my next trip. L. David Keith treated me to a fantastic trip at Woodlands in the East Cape and has also repeatedly stayed in contact.

I like the idea of a local (USA) representative and with honest representation anyone will feel safer in not carrying all that cash. Just be sure you check deeply into the agent responsible for the cash payments you are making.

Frank

I wonder if adding middlemen just increases your odds of getting f'ed in the end. On both my safaris I dealt directly with the outfitter/PH, sent money to them when required, and paid the rest in traveler's checks while there. It was all mano a mano with no trouble. I even managed to sort my way through the SA strike without a travel agent. Of course, that really screwed up my scheduled hunt in SA, but the PHs and I sorted that out one on one and we still had a great hunt.

quote:

First let me say that I have used escrow accounts...

Not long ago there was a thread w/good info regarding this topic:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/7611019111

Gl Krause - In short, I handle it like this! I will use this as an example. If you book a hunt and send a 50% deposit lets say 9 months prior to the hunt dates. When I receive the deposit, I will retain my full commission, and forward the remainder onto the outfitter!! Remember, the hunt is not booked as far as the outfitter is concerned until he has received the deposit too! Unless the outfitter/agent have other arrangements, or a long-standing, soild relationship! But I always prefer to send the initial deposit onto the outfitter asap!

Now lets say the other 50% is due 30 days prior to the hunt date! I will generally have the client send that to GHR, along with a deposit for trophy fees, plus the full expenses for air-charters, etc! Usually, and once again with a good relationship between outfitter/agent, I keep that money in the GHR account until after the hunt is over. Then the outfitter sends me an invoice to include the remaining 50%, plus trophy fees, air-charter fees, etc. I then confirm all that to be accurate with the client before sending the remainder of the money I am holding! Once all parties agree, I send the money. If you have paid a $10,000.00 trophy fee deposit and the trophy fees were only $7,000.00. I send the $7,000.00 to the outfitter and send you back $3,000.00. If you owe more, I bill you, etc. This all does several very important things. The outfitter feels comfortable that I have the money, the client feels comfortable that I have the money in the states, and lastly it eliminates the client from carrying loads of cash, travelers checks, etc. Lastly, NOW if there is a big problem or dispute, the agent and client have a great deal of the money still in the states, and do not have to relinquish it until the matter is solved satisfactorily!

So for those reasons alone, it is a very good idea to use an agent when booking your over-seas hunts!! Try do it that way by yourself with an outfitter you do not know, or have not hunted with in the past, probably in most cases will not work. Once all your money is gone, now you are at the mercy of the outfitter, with no other re-course or helper in your corner.

The above is just an example of how I like to do it, doesn't mean all agents should do it that way. I am sure other guys have their own way of doing it that works for them!

Punctuation police here, sir. I'm afraid I'm going to have to cite you for inappropriate and excessive--not to mention annoying as hell--usage of exclamation points. You have the right to appeal this citation. Carry on.

And no, I have nothing of substance to add, I'm afraid.

Thank you Frank. You make my job easy and every PH, Outfitter and friend that has hunted or made contact with you, personally commended you as what a fine gentleman you were, and a pleasure to spend time with.
Regards,
David

As to this matter, I imagine each agent or agency has their own contract and guidelines. Some probably have different agreements or contracts with each Outfitter/PH. Personally, I will only discuss my practices with my clients. I concider their business personal and private. 95% of my clients do not post here, but enjoy reading informative posts. However, as a general rule, my clients advise me how they want things handled. Sometimes this is not how a PH does business, but as Aaron says, this is where we earn our money: sorting out issues and making plans.
Good hunting to you all,
David

Kamo - No you're right, I have a bad habit of that and now really sure why??? On the other hand though, if something like that bothers you so much, can I suggest you lay off the caffeine.

It seems we are looking at this from one side only - the clients. What about the people conducting the hunt in Africa?

Just as the client wants to be assured of getting the hunt he has paid for, the PH wants to get paid for his efforts.

With a lot of PHs, keeping the money in an account until the hunt is over is not an option.

As I have mentioned before, there is a lot of hanky panky going on. We have some bad clients and some bad outfitters. Lots of this is kept quiet. Which is not very helpful for either the industry or the rest of us as hunters.

What about the PH who conducts hunts for an outfitter based in the US, and then not get paid for several months?

Just look at the leopard fiasco in Namibia that has been going on for so long, and only now something is being done about it.

If we are honest about our dealings, and truthful with what we got on our hunts, all this would have been irrelevant.

And I repeat again, despite all the compliants about outfitters and PHs, there a lot more bad clients out there whose actions are not made public.

On my hunts, I have gone through a lot of different arrangements.

I have paid a deposit, and paid the rest with travellers cheques at the end of the hunt.

I have paid everything in full well ahead of my hunt.

I have paid enough to cover my hunt ahead of my arrival, but shot more animals than I had money for. And sent the money as soon as I was back home.

I have never had problems, and there was no question of either side not keeping our word.

But, again, whether due to luck or accute judgement, the people I have dealt value their honesty and integrity very highly. I tell them what we want to hunt, and how many people are involved, they tell me what the cost is, and the money is sent directly to their account.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Martinez:
I certainly hope others are more successful at this than I was.

I tried to use Thomas Powers of Powers International as a booking agent who would escrow my funds in the states and then send funds when I reported after my return home. I had agreed that the initial deposits would be made immediately.
Fortunately for me I was not able to contact Powers or anyone in his business a couple of weeks before leaving on the hunt. I had decided to expand my hunt to include sable and hippo and wanted to send additional cash. Since no one responded to my messages and e-mail, I contacted the PH I had been talking with and sent him the added funds.
When I arrived in Zimbabwe I found that Powers had never sent funds, never sent my contract info forward and had not been heard from for some time.

The owner of Nyala safaris allowed me to hunt for the 11 days I originally wanted which was nearly covered by the added funds I had sent forth and I was asked to contact Powers and get the funds forwarded. Luckily I had all the correspondence and e-mails in which he ackowledged receipt of the $7500 I had sent him.
I have yet to hear from Powers, I have yet to receive another repsonse from calling repeatedly and sending letters, e-mails and certified copies of the postal fraud paperwork.
His daughter sent me an e-mail a few weeks after my return telling me he was in Kenya and wanted to talk with me about the hunt but still no communication. I had planned on using his expediter service to bring my trophies back but that is also a shell company covered by a web page and no more.
Powers is a crook and I would warn anyone to stay away from anything having to do with him.


So, I am in no way accusing honest agents and will use another on my next trip. L. David Keith treated me to a fantastic trip at Woodlands in the East Cape and has also repeatedly stayed in contact.

I like the idea of a local (USA) representative and with honest representation anyone will feel safer in not carrying all that cash. Just be sure you check deeply into the agent responsible for the cash payments you are making.

Frank

Frank:

Is this the Powers International in Co? How long ago was this? It should be criminal but at least you should be able to sue them. Sorry to hear about this, guess I missed the hunt report.

A wise man once told me that one's position on any issue depended upon which chair one was sitting. I believe that is true here.

There are issues from all sides of these matters. Each entity's perspective and interests are different.

I hear a lot of criticizing booking agent's for holding money. I have personally experienced situations where holding the money in question eliminated problems that were arising. I no longer worry about that.

I don't book without a booking agent unless I know the outfitter personally. I have seen my booking agents earn his fees more than once by stepping in to protect me. For example, after 2 clients had returned from horrible trip to a particular area in Tanzania that I was scheduled to go to, John Barth stepped in and demanded that they move me or I was not going. They moved me. I would have had no idea of any of this if it were not for John. I would have blindly gone on the trip from hell.

I think about all one can do is use a reputable agent that has been around for a while.

I think Saeed hit it right. All the bad and ugly is mostly reported about the outfitters and PH's, it is almost getting to a point in the business that the outfitter needs to ask for referances from the hunter as to who he has hunted with in the past. The hunters expect the outfitters to up front and honest about thier business and not promise the world if they can not deliver, but on the other hand the hunter needs to be just as honest as well. If you are in poor shape, not the greatest shot or what ever don't tell your outfitter you can hike 10 miles for 5 days straight and shoot 300+yds tell it like it is. Everybody will be better off. I am not only an outfitter but a hunter as well. Just my 2 cents.

Larry - Great example, thank you!

In November 2002 I was the first hunter to hunt in Zambia since the closure 2 years prior! The rest of Zambia opened in 2003, but ONE special hunt was offered in the Zambezi Valley for Lion and I took it. Just so happens that I know John Barth, and he was exclusively selling the hunt, so I bought it through him. Now once there, the community and the outfitter changed all the rules, including where we could and could not hunt, which made the success on lion virtually impossible. My PH at the time, knew the area very well, and threw a huge fit about how we were getting screwed. NOW none of this was at all the fault of John Barth, nor did he give any "mis-representation" of how the hunt was to go. However once at home I contacted John, lodged my complaint, and he moved swiftly to resolve the problem. He did so to my complete satisfaction, as was able to get 75% of my money refunded from the outfitter within 6 weeks of the hunt. At no time did I ask him to make up the difference or did I expect it, as he had no more control over the situation than I did.

Double k, I agree with you on an intellectual level, but I really wasn’t talking about these types of complaints, but complaints that have to do with a breach of contract or total misrepresentation. You know, the things that become a problem regardless of how good a shot a hunter is. I really wanted to know what a booking agents options are at that point.

But while we are on the subject, I do see a lot of mention on this site about the hunter’s responsibilities to get fit, practice shooting, roll with the punches, etc. and I agree that all these things go into making a hunt enjoyable for both parties. However, the outfitting business is a consumer oriented business just like most businesses and shouldn’t be treated differently than any other in this regard. So your comment “it is almost getting to a point in the business that the outfitter needs to ask for references from the hunter” might be true from some perspective, I don’t think it applies to hunting any more than to visiting a doctor. I suppose it’s my fault that I couldn’t keep away from the canolis between visits, but I still expect my doctor to do his professional best.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Kamo - No you're right, I have a bad habit of that and now really sure why??? On the other hand though, if something like that bothers you so much, can I suggest you lay off the caffeine.

I suggest back at you that you need to look into a new humormeter.

Kamo - Sorry, maybe you mis-understood my comment. I too thought your comment was funny, and agree that I have a problem with using the !!!!!!!!

For Gatogordo
"quote"
Is this the Powers International in Co? How long ago was this? It should be criminal but at least you should be able to sue them. Sorry to hear about this, guess I missed the hunt report.[/quote]


I also sent a pm. Yes this is the business. Along with Powers Expediters and Thomas Powers booking. It has been 11 months now, and maybe fortunately for me he quit contact with me a month before I headed over and I finalized my itinerary of coming over and hunting my original Buff and adding additional days with my PH. Had I not initiated that contact with them No-one from Nyala Safaris would have known I was on the way. I must say under the circumstances, they treated me royally and I could not have asked a better experience of hunting.
I find it terrible that I need to still be dealing with the business side of things after have such a great experience.

I agree with Saeed as I always try to wait and hear the other side of the story and always turn the other cheek first. Unfortunately for me the other lower cheek has refused to speak.

I will admit, I was one of those poor shots and reported so even while still hunting at Woodlands. Those fine gentlemen worked me through it and I ended up shooting lots of extra animals and plan another hunting trip with them.
Frank

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Kamo - Sorry, maybe you mis-understood my comment. I too thought your comment was funny, and agree that I have a problem with using the !!!!!!!!

All good, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in the process of finalising the way that we will be handling deposits for hunts etc - what we are looking at is putting all monies that are normally due into a trust account where upon the arrival of the client or non arrival a letter is sent to release the day fees, after each trophy is shot another letter is sent to the lawyers for the release of that animals trophies.

We are still trying to sort out the full ins and outs but we will not receeive any money until the client arrives or does not in which case cancellations fees would apply.

I beleive staying out of the paying upofront is the way to go as with GHR for eg; it boils down to CAPITAL - would you hunt with an outfitter who does not have the cash flow to run an operation and needs every penny months before to do the hunt? thats rolling money over and it catches up sooner or later.

quote:

after each trophy is shot another letter is sent to the lawyers for the release of that animals trophies.

Sounds a bit too complicated for my taste, and I don't sdee where it will solve any problem.

Who is going to sign the letter, you or the clients?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

after each trophy is shot another letter is sent to the lawyers for the release of that animals trophies.

Sounds a bit too complicated for my taste, and I don't sdee where it will solve any problem.

Who is going to sign the letter, you or the clients?

The letters will be to the attorneys stating that they release x amount, say x for day rates in one, and trophies in the other.

We are trying to make the process as tranparent as possible

How many of you buy travel insurance? Some types of travel insurance cover financial default of the operator and booking agent.

If you send money to a booking agent, and they go bankrupt, you are an unsecured creditor. YOu will in likelyhood get nothing.

The same can be said if you deal directly with an outfitter or PH. They go belly up, and you are out the dough.

We don't have a fixed formula, other than the required deposit at the time of booking. Regarding the balance, this is handled according to the outfitter's and client's wishes. Sometimes we handle all the money and pay the outfitter when the hunt is completed to the client's satisfaction. Sometimes we handle only the deposit, leaving the client to settle the rest directly. Most outfitters want their money yesterday, including prepayment of trophies in some cases. If the client is not comfortable with this, we negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement. For example, last year I took 4 clients to Zim, this was their first trip to Zim, but not their first trip with me. Clients were nervous about advance payments to Zim due to the elections etc. However, they were comfortable with me holding their money. They paid the entire (estimated) amount to me in advance, in installments. We agreed that I would keep the money in the USA and wire the daily rates to the outfitter the week before the hunt started. I wired him the trophy fees when we got back, and the clients got what was left over. Worked for everyone.

Having said that, I think the fairest approach is the following:

1. Deposit paid at time of booking, and forwarded to outfitter immediately.
2. Balance of daily rates paid to outfitter week prior to departure, either directly or indirectly.
3. Trophy fees paid after the hunt is done. Either via TCs, or wire. Usually directly.

A word of warning about Zim. Due to the banking situation there and high fees on TCs, some outfitters want you to bring cold hard cash. Very risky and stressful. Rather, pay the daily rates in advance, and the trophy fees when you get back. If the outfitter won't accept this, then have your agent hold the estimated trophy fees until the hunt is over.

An outfitter that is totally inflexible and wants it all paid over up front should be avoided ... unless you just have to hunt with that guy in that concession for some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
How many of you buy travel insurance?

We tell all of our clients to buy insurance. For a couple of hundred bucks max, you can cover

1. Trip cancellation, if you have to change plans for a valid reason (the airlines these days won't refund, and/or will rip you if you make a schedule change, and deposits are generally not refundable unless you cancel way in advance)
2. Loss of baggage (and this seems to be a routine thing now via JNB)
3. Insolvency of the airline, agent or operator
4. Medical emergency

Most do not cover
1. Cash
2. Insurrection/war/riot etc

In the last year, I have personally claimed for baggage theft once, and had a client claim his deposit when he developed a medical problem at the last minute. I learned the hard way that the policies don't cover loss of cash (also jewellery)

AnotherAZWriter, could you give me a name of an insurance carrier to handle those cost. This option sounds the easiest and best for me.
Frank

Frank:

I usually use Travel Guard. It is a lot more expensive than a few hundred dollars. I suspect in the next year there will be more than one booking agent/hunting outfit going BK. In fact, I think the risk of insolvency is greater than you breaking a leg...