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Gentlemen, I am having a discussion with one of our members regarding the differences in the requirement of "donations" to SCI and DSC for the exhibitors, and booth allocation. Would any of you like to throw some ligfht on this please? | ||
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The most important difference is that the SCI 'donation' is compulsory where they have a minimum amount/value whereas the DSC are grateful if you give a donation but it's not compulsory. | |||
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I am a member of both organizations, but, from what I have been told by exhibitors, Shakari's post is dead on. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I am the member Saeed is having the problem with. SCI requires a donation of $600 and then use the value of donations to aid in booth locations. DSC does not require a donation, but uses donations values (via point system) to allocate booth location. I really don't see much diference. Maybe SCI should just raise the basic booth rent $600 and use the same system as DSC. I also reviewed DSC's list of donations they made in 2007 (last year available) and they made no donations directly to any Africian project. I do believe there are many vendors from Africa. Also if either of you would have attended the DSC show you would have seen most (not all) vendors displayed a sign at their booth stating they were donors to DSC. This is not a slam against DSC, it just appears to me there are more likeness between the two organizations than there are differences. Also both organizations give awards to PHs and have annual rewards for trophies taken. I support both organizations and I am sure both have warts. | |||
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With SCI, the US$600 minimum doesn't get you anything except a keyring and obviously the more the exhibitor donates, the better location he gets. Effectively, it's become the hunting version of an arms race for every exhibitor that attends and in some ways, the biggest victim (after the exhibitor) of the system is the ordinary hunter because at the end of the day, the cost of those donations have to be factored into the costs of the other hunts for the rest of the season. I reckon it'd be a much better idea to scrap the donations and just have a sliding scale of booth prices according to location. | |||
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Imagine that for one moment, two different organizations with two different operating philosophies. Hey here's an idea, combined the two organizations and the straw dog dies. What ever happened to vie la difference. | |||
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As usual shakari, doesn't read very well or doesn't understand english (American varity). DSC is the same i e the more the donation the more points the better the location. What don't you understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would call you stupid but that would be redundant. Odie Humpty Dumpty can not be put back togeather again, eh. I guess I will be banned for this post, so be it! | |||
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Shakari, FWIW, I happen to think your pretty bright...but after all, maybe I aint to swift. Jeff | |||
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DOJ, Actually it's you that doesn't read very well. I suggest you take a second look at my previous posts and try to read and understand them this time. SCI demand a 'donation' whereas DSC welcome one but it's not compulsory.  I don't know why, but you seem to think that no-one is allowed to express an opinion that differs with yours and when they do, you promptly start hurling insults like a spoilt child. I've every right to express an opinion and if you don't think so, I suggest you re-read the bit in your constitution about the right to free speech. | |||
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Shakari, Die is an old school hard head. He may not be up with modern educational processes and results. In Oklahoma, we would say - "You so bright I have to wear sunglasses to hang around you." We evaluate education by - 1) can you carry a football, or 2) can you throw a football, or 3) are you out of jail or just on probation. On a more serious note, I believe the Houston Safari Club and DSC both broke from SCI due to focus on issues, not on methods. DSC wanted more local work done. Anyway, join the one you like. Die - cool your jets a bit and be civil, you are wearing your "angry eyes" a little too often. We love you and appreciate you, but settle down and get another cup of decaf. | |||
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dogcat, if you saw the series Lonesome Dove, you will remember "I can not abide an ignorant man". I feel the same. Steve is welcome to his opinion. I like the way he quotes OUR constitution. The facts are both organizations allocate booths the same way. They both assign the booths on a prefence method. The method may vary a wee bit. As I said maybe SCI should just up the booth rent $600 and omit the basic required donation like DSC and then assign the booths based on donations. I find it intereesting and insightful that you stated one of the reasons for DSC splitting from SCI is they wanted more local work. You will see in one of my prior posts that DSC made NO direct funding to any Africian project thus carry out their desire for local work. I only want to know how this squares with Saeed and Steve's demands for more Africian involvement (forget the org name) by SCI because of the funds raised from Africian vendors. My biggest problem with Saeed and Steve is they have never supporfted either org as a vendor and only state hearsay. By the same token neither have attended either show to the best of my knowledge, as I don't remember either stating they have attended either show. I guess I am an old school in that I try my best to work with facts. That may come from my 40+ years dealing with the IRS. | |||
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Shakari. I also happen to think you right. Several years ago I was in the SCI service desk area at SCI prior to show opening. A guy walks up and says "what's it take to get a booth".The reply was 'we are sold out and there is about 2 year waiting list). This guy then asks 'what would it take to shorten that wait?' and the response was'About $00,000.00'. (They could have been pulling his leg.) His response was something like " they can kiss off" as he turned and walked away. I think that there has been a whole new breed of hunters that go show to show in person or via web site to bid only on hunts to find dirt cheap price with no interest in buying a hunt. My conversations with outfitters, PH's,guides and outfitters seem to indicate there are a lot of these people who do not expand the hunt, pay no tips to staff and perhaphs reluctant to pay for extras. This is not true of all but enough for concern. Yes this is reflected in price. And it is a shame that in the SCI auctions the hunts are run thru at a rapid pace like scrap. At shows I have listed to stories of a less that good hunt. Sometimes I will inquire how they obtained the hunt. Very often it was at an SCI chapter or at SCI. Elton Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Dogcat, that is my view of the US educational system as well. Being in Florida, the examples of Miami, Florida and Florida State do not serve to change my mind. I think they should just set up gladiator training institutions for the football and basketball players! Having said that, it is a pity that this thread went downhill so rapidly. It started off so innocently, but clearly there were other issues. What is wrong with Shakari's suggestion to: "scrap the donations and just have a sliding scale of booth prices according to location."? The only reason would be that the donations have some other purpose as well. I am not a member of either organization. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Die, PM sent. Dont PM me again. Jeff | |||
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Yet another example of you jumping to conclusions and ignoring the facts and God help the US taxpayer if you applied the same lack of attention and detail to their tax returns! I've never said I haven't ever been a member of either organisation nor have I ever said I've never attended or exhibited at either convention..... Or other shows come to that. To suggest those things is entirely untrue. I have however said I'm not currently a member of SCI and that I now choose not to attend the conventions. There's a very big difference between the two statements. I think you'll also find that Saeed is a life member of SCI and if that is the case, that's yet another example of your jumping to conclusions and ignoring the facts. | |||
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Elton, I really have to disagree with you concerning, hunters not going to book hunts. I personally sat with the owners of safari company, and they were booking (getting deposits) a fare number of clients. Also, I'm a guy who attends these shows, and I don't really like bidding on these auction hunts because there's always a catch. Most offer just daily fees, or a few animals and no fees, or require more animals to be taken in addition to package. And the truth is most hunts offered up are of stuff I've hunted, and I really don't care to double up. Plus, I prefer to give the money to the outfitter/ph, knowing the people I do, they are more than willing to make someone a deal, vs have their item in the auction go big, because thats all out of pocket expense for them. Like you said, people scrapping around for cheap hunts is something I don't care to do. I want my hunts to be on my terms, not an auction guide's. | |||
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The difference to me is pretty simple, yesterday I joined DSC and next time my SCI membership comes up for renewal I will not be renewing. Ask the exhibitors what they think about how each show is run and which they prefer. I think most exhibitors tolerate SCI simply because it is an economic necessity. Mike | |||
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I just saw this thread and am a bit surprised at the tone. Saeed asks a simple question and several people give their answers, led by Shakari. Die gets contentious with Shakari, who never directly addressed him, even though Shakari WAS spot on in his original description. Die, what are you so wound up about? You seem pretty surly for such a simply question. MJines is correct in his assessment about how exhibitors view the two organizations, from what I've seen over the years. Die, I think you need to get laid.  ************* | |||
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DOJ - did you actually read what Steve wrote before pulling out your six-gun? Maybe after 40 years dealing with the IRS you ain't so good on the fine print??!! You are both saying that the end result is the same but the method differs a little as far as I can tell. Can't hunters discuss stuff around a campfire (AR) without firing shots at each other?  | |||
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Actually Captain Call said "I can't abide RUDENESS in a man". I agree with the Captain. . | |||
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Saeed, as one who has "purchased" booths and looked into purchasing booths here's what i know. Houston and Dallas DO NOT require nor ask for a donation. Houston's placement is not based on donations but seems to be, maybe, on longevity. The booths I have had in Houston have been in very good locations, and being a small fry in a big pond I did not make a donation. (The booth prices in Dallas and Houston are cheaper than SCI, too.) SCI REQUIRES a donation of a minimum value of $600 (if you do not donate a hunt you pay an extra $600 for the booth). Yes, this builds points, but at only $600 a year it will take a VERY long time to get a prime location. I do not do SCI RENO. I do make donations to a variety of SCI chapters where I have a bit of a footprint. And I really get chapped at folks who try to string donated hunts together-- that's why my donations state explicitly that the hunt can not be strung together with any other donated hunt. YMMV, just my 2 cents. Dan Donarski Hunter's Horn Adventures Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906-632-1947 www.huntershornadventures.com | |||
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OK gentlemen lets get this straight. I PM Saeed about the booths etc and HE brought it to the board, not me. JTEX so I miss quoted and I should have quoted correct and then changed it to my thought. As to Steve and Saeed this discussion on SCI has been going on for over a year, it is nothing new. I tried to point out how each org. allocated their spaces. I also addressed the "donations" paid out by each organization. JCHB, being a new member I don't know how long you have been reading the posts but as I said above this is a long running debate. If you are near Hluhluwe let me know and maybe we can share a drink at Zulu Nyala when I am there this fall. Cheers Finally I normally just don't take PM's public. Bwana. I said finally but I just want to share some info. I have been recieving PMs that agree with me, nuff said. | |||
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It was my intention not to mention who I was having this discussion with. That is why I did not mention a name. Then you came up and posted it was you I am having this discussion with. Why didn't you ask the same question on the forum in the first place then? | |||
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As an African operator, SCI has failed both their membership and conservaton by condoning illegal and unethical practices. Of cource, I am looking close to home and the OOA saga as a prime example, but there have been many, many others. John Jacson broke with SCI and formed conservation force. I am sure John does well out of this but he does alot more to keep hunting available for American sportsmen in Africa than SCI. Zimbabwe banned operators from donating to SCI in 1990. It upset SCI then and Zim operators who need the booth location have found ways around the legislation. As one of the men who enforced that ban on donated hunts...I still am in full agreement with it. The hunt will be sold for less than its actual value...so the operator inflates wht the hunt s worth and generally only assigns a top PH if the client is important enough...run of the mill guys who buy hunts on SCI uctions will get PH's who will work for half of what I will crawl out of bed for! DCS...they have never claimed to help us nore represent us. There is a price...you can can pay or you can donate to move up the boards. I must say nit is nice to be able to ask...what will it cost me to get a stand in X location, and be given a figure...not oh well lets see what your donation looks like... Andre de Georges as SCI's pont man in Africa for many years. His Integrety is (and always was) above question. He was a little liberal in his politics and actually belived in the people of Arica...so He was preplaced by a more pliable man with more elsatic values...(and a director/shareholder in OOA.)  | |||
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Oryxhunter1983. Perhaps I should have said strain of hunters. I certianly do not mean all hunters. However I do know those who only look to auctions. You have an excellent view having things on your terms. My observation at DSC last week was not only were there more people in attendance but they were willing to make committments. Last year seemed there were a lot kicking tires perhaps because of uncertian economic conditions. Who can blame them. Pleased for all that attitudes seem to be up. Looks to me you appreciate value and a good relationship. Cheers. Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Elton, having read a few of the following posts, it reminded me of something. While sitting at the booth with some safari operators, a very Prominent DSC person, who won their hunt in the auction, did come by explaining how he would be coming to their place from this place and going back to here. SO this stringing hunts issue is pretty crappy...I can totally see where you're coming from now. It was very apparent that this gentleman bought multiple trips from the auction and he was trying to work out his month long safari for cheap. It surprised me that he then wanted to talk about what he didn't want and what could he exchange...ect. If it was me, there would be no negotiation! Except to add on more stuff... However, it is the CHOICE of the PH/Outfitters to donate. SO I can't really be to upset. But like I said, I can't ever find anything that I think, Oh wow, thats a deal...now I can't bid on the 20k+ type of stuff so maybe thats where some of the bigger savings are, but hell, at 2k a day, I find that very hard to justify as well. Forced donations is crap...b/c forced anything is a bad thing! thanks for the kind words, always good to chat with a nice person on AR | |||
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Is it legal to quote Lonesome Dove and live in Pennsylvania???  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Saeed, I came on here for 2 reasons. First you had about 4hrs to reply to my PM. and secondly when you brought to the board I just felt it was necessary to make my presence known. I was really wanting your input not the whole board, as I had been thru that before. I reallly thought a private conversation could be a bit more civil and deal with facts not opinions, as you know opinions are like arseholes every one has one. I am not calling you names please do not take that from my last statement. I know Steve will chime in now and that is what I wanted to avoid. | |||
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Dr Easter, just as much as it is for some Dallas city slicker.  | |||
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Yep...probably so! I just don't know any to harrass right now! Do you??? If by chance you were referring to me...those who know me personally will really be ROFLTAO!!!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No one at Dallas pushed me to donate. My Outfitters donation was voluntary and brought more than we expected. It was a win-win situation for all of us. I don't know anything about show points, nor do I enter my many "record book" trophies in anyones book. Maybe someday out of respect for my PH's and Guides. Meanwhile....I could care less. LDK Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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I would say the facts are that various safari operators need venues like those provided by SCI and the DSC to sell their products. Hunters and gun owners need large organizations with clout and money to defend their interests. Look at them for what their purpose is; it's to promote business and protect hunting and shooting rights and not primarily to haul medicine and clothes to poor Africans unless that promotes their primary purpose. As for charging for floor space or requiring donations; why not? Do ya'll think renting a convention center is cheap? It's all part of advertising and if there weren't fees or donations none of it would happen. It's part of advertising so I would say to those griping about how much it costs; just don't go if you can promote your business more economically by doing things differently. Now the auction thing. Why would someone go to the trouble to buy something at auction if just as good a deal couldn't be had by buying it outright? Do you think it would be better for an organization to only sell stuff at retail prices at auction? If so, it's doubtful the auctions and their income streams would amount to much. That said, I've been amazed at the prices some of the auction items go for; the prices aren't bargain by the way but some must think so. With all the exclusions and omitted details on what extras such as additional trophies will cost, a good share of the auctions aren't worth what their alleged value is. And which show is the best? I've now been to both. The stuff at both shows is pretty much the same but without a doubt the SCI show is much bigger with much more to see. The food in Dallas is better though in my opinion. I belong to both organizations but I take them for what they are and for what they are worth to me. For me it's the cost of entertainment. | |||
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If the food is better at Dallas, I would hate to see what people eat in Reno!!  | |||
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The food is the big reason my wife didn't want to go back to Reno. | |||
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Grumulkin , Thank you for responding with a voice of reason. Les | |||
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Maybe doj is just mad at Dallas for beating the Eagles three times in one year and knocking them out of the playoffs. Just saying ...... DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Anybody here speak German? For those of you who do not, there are three ways to say "THE" in German. Der is the one used for masculine things like hammers and thermonuclear weapons. Das is the one for the few things that are not gender specific. That leaves us with the third; die. That one is applied to things that are feminine by description. Die ou Jagter is, roughly, the (feminine __ Jagter. Definition is not specified. Jagd is hunt, Jagter is the hunter. My German is not recent enough to be sure if doj thinks he is defining someone of the male gender hunting for females of some sort, or a female person or an effeminate male who hunts for _____? Can someone more proficient help me out here? Easy to answer this, don't care for one or the others politics, don't support them. Especially by attending their shows/convention. Rich | |||
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so the donated auction hunts with Chifuti Safaris, HHK Safaris, Martin Pieters Safaris, and Lalapansi Safaris are essentially illegal hunts with substandard PH's.?? i guess that is good to know but a little disappointing. i think the donors may be in for a shock if asked about this next week. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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another thought. would i be guilty Of a Lacy Act violation if i bought one of these "illegal" hunts at the auction and tried to bring any trophies back? i would apparently be hunting illegally in Zim and by definition be importing game illegally taken into the US. food for thought. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Jdollar...No HHK, Chifuti etc found a legal loophole so as to be able to donate hunts - the hunts will be perfectly legal and the operator will bring into zimbabwe a wad of US$ and bank it locally to 'pay' for their own donated hunt - even if the hunt was on your own land and the animals cost you nothing...the government requires you to being in and bank a certain minimum ammount. And lets put it this way...hunt is worth 10k...it will be advertised in Safari as being worth 15k...it will sell on the floor for say 6k. Now who am I going to use on the hunt. A top pro that is going to cost me 200 a day? Or somebody that will work for 150...Who bought the hunt? Can I get real milage out of it? Hey It's George W! Heck I'll do the hunt myself and make darn sure he has a great one becuase I am going to get 30k's worth of free advertising out of this...Joe yank.. "ok, you've got your licence but you really start learning when you go out with your first client...so this is where you get your feet wet young man!" Or " Fred, you really are getting a bit old for PHing but I understand you need the shilling, I'll see what days I can give you - cannot promis a full season but here's one to start with..." Cynical...yes, But I have been involved in the industry a long time. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting I Need Some Help In Explaining.............
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