Just a question for those of you that have been elephant hunting.

I see in the recent discussion that elephant seems to be the one place where alot draw the line on a scope.

My specific question centers around a brain shot. Buzz's DVD strongly encourages everyone to take the brain shot, even first timers. If I make the hunt, I would like to go with him after tuskless.

Would not a scope be of great use in seeing shadows, the temporal gland, the ear hole and such? Since it is my first time, I would be trying to match up all the clues rather than insinctively aiming for the brain from experience.

Given a scenerio of a brain shot on a elephant and a heart/lung shot on a buffalo (given equivalent short distances), wouldn't the optics be of much more use on the brain shot on the elephant?

Just curious. Never been there, but a scope intuitively seems of alot more use in a brain shot that a heart-lung on other animals (or elephant).

I also realize it is one more thing to break and doesn't make a rifle handy. Is this the cause of alot of the responses?

quote:

Would not a scope be of great use in seeing shadows, the temporal gland, the ear hole and such?

It certainly was for me. I may be the exception here, and it wouldn't be the first time, but I prefer scopes on all my rifles. I took a charging cow at 16 yards and a bull hidden in the thick jess with Buzz and the scope on my .416 Rigby helped more than hindered.

For the double gun enthusiast it is probably not kosher BUT I just had a working rifle built in .458 Lott and intended to leave it unscoped. After a day at the range, squinting at the 100 yard target, I will be attaching a Kahles 1.1x4 with detachable Talley's, thank you very much!

Metalman,

I shot my cow with Buzz's partner Myles McCallum.

I shot her at 9 paces with a 3 X scope.

I used the 3 X because it was light weight and rugged, but next time I will use a German 30mm 1-4 and be sure to have it on the lowest setting!

You will be surprised how close Buzz or Myles can get you to a cow elephant. Scopes are fine but be sure you have PLENTY of field of view.

Andy

Bwanarmm's experience certainly demonstrates that everybody is different and there are exceptions to most everything, as I prefer no scope based on similar experiences. I shot two tuskless, the first with a 1.5-5 Leopold (at 1.5) and at 12-yards I felt I could not "see" the big picture including the changing angles. What is unique about an ele frontal brain shot is that you are shooting at the brain which is far back in the skull and moving changing the angles sometimes dramatically, typically not at a particular location on the animal. Side brain shot, not as much.

Removed the scope (Tally's) for the second one and at 10-yards I was able to make a better instinctive shot. Took a snap side brain shot on a fleeing bull ele (not recommended!) w/o a scope that I am certain I could not have made with a traditional scope (red dot maybe).

Over say 30 yards (likely the closest you'd get on Buffalo to make a h/l shot...any closer and you are likely doing real good, and/or in a world of trouble!!!), and/or if you have time to line-up the shot and talk about where to hit with the PH (like, "see the ear hole, aim x inches forward and y inches up"), yea, then I would prefer a 1.5'ish scope.

Ask 10 people, and you will probably get a 50-50 reply, with no "wrong" answers. Except those that suggest a peep site.
(just kidding..)

If in doubt, book the hunt with Buzz, mount a good low-res scope on quick detach rings, practice with both, and see what makes the most sense depending on what the conditions and shot distances are like when you go.

The bottom line is that elephant are big and should be shot at very close range.

A scope is not needed and may in fact be or quickly become a hindrance.

When I hunted for my bull ele in Zim 2 years ago my rifle was equiped with a 1.5/5X and when I saw how close we got to them I took off my scope and when you are 30feet from an ele a scope is a hindrance in my opinion...

Mike

12 days till the Selous

I have found myself far too close to both ele and buff to use even a 1.5-5 scope. However, for the sniper approach, I agree that a scope would be an advantage.

First off I've only shot 2 bull elephants so I'm a novice. Having said that in both cases I was glad I had a low power scope and next time I'll use a scope also. I can see that if you intend to or have to get within 50 feet of an animals the irons might be better but personally my eyes just don't work well enough anymore to use them.

Mark

I shot all my eles with a scoped rifle.
Using a low power variable, set at approx. 2x, the field of view is extremely wide and I am shooting both eyes open. So there is only the benefit of a very clear and crisp target image, no hindrance in any respect.

I prefer open sights. No matter how low power and whether I try it with both eyes open...I loose perspective looking through a scope. I don't want to loose perspective with elephants around, especially hunting tuskless and especially in the thick stuff. It not the one you are hunting that gets you!

I have a Swarovski 1.2x4x30mm on my 375H&H, still not enough feild of view at the distance that I have been from elephants.

At elephant range a good flattened and polished bead shows up well, even in the shadows.

My thoughts,

JPK

Another consideration is the many, many miles that one can walk when tracking ele, unless the trackers carry your rifle for you. Over the shoulder the scope is a PITA and digs to ones neck and/or gets caught on every thorny bush. Maybe not so much if on a sling, but they didn't work for me in the thick jess. But again, to each their own and everybody should make the decision that is best for them.

Two of my 3 Elephants were shot with scoped rifle. Did not find it to be any disadvantage at all. Up close and personal they still let you place the shot better.

I'm taking a 458 Lott Ruger Express next summer for ele with Buzz and plan to shoot it with iron sights. However, I am upgrading the factory sights.

I have shot 5 elephants, 2 bulls and 3 cows.
One bull and 2 cows were at 6 yards or less, one cow at 12 yards and a bull at 120 yards. I prefer iron sights, and a double rifle.

If my eyes get to the point that I cannot see the iron sights, and I am still hunting elephants then I would use a scope in the 1-4 range set on its lowest setting, or a red dot sight of some sort.

Most of us are scope users, if you are going to hunt with a big bore iron sighted rifle just practice with it till you have confidence with them

Hint: forget the 100 yard bench. Start off hand at 15 yards and work out to longer distances.

Start UP CLOSE FIRST.

Use your big bore with iron sights on deer and pigs first, or whatever game you have handy.
You might be suprised how well you pick it up.
The range is not the place to learn. Even if there is nothing to hunt go into the woods, shoot rocks rather than targets.

Yukon Delta,

I used that rifle on my first bull ele...Boy do they react when hit with big bullet...

Mike

I shot my first ele with iron sights because I thought I was supposed to. After that I used the scope. The scope makes it so much easier for older eyes to pick up and hit targets in the dappled light of the jess. either system will work but don't train with scopes and then go off on an important hunt and expect to do well with irons after a few shots off the bench. Just MHO.

A good friend and I used a scope on a big double rifle once....I'm still reminded when I see the scar on his forehead.

Hey bwanamrm, I watched Buzz's video on your charging ele...now I know why they have daily laundry service !!!!

Cheers to my good frinds els & bwanamrm.

I think I shot all my eles with a 6-18X Leupold set at 18X.

But I'm old and I forget.

"Ask 10 people, and you will probably get a 50-50 reply, with no "wrong" answers. Except those that suggest a peep site."

Why not a peep? BillC

quote:

Originally posted by Bullet_.375: Why not a peep?

You missed the develish-emotions icons in your quote, nothing serious intended. Usually when the "scope vs open sites" topic comes up, a few alternate solutions are suggested...but I guess Ganyana is in the bush, and Will does not want to play! Maybe Ganyana will post when back online.

Here's a few threads from the archives related to peep sights:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/.../590102202#590102202
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/.../668106844#668106844
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...26/r/3961026#3961026

Something to think about! I'd say probably a full 85% of client killed elephant, are shot with scoped Bolt action rifles! Another 5% are with Iron sights on double rifles, with the last 10% shot with iron sighted bolt rifles!

I'm not an elephant hunter, only because I can't afford it, but at the age of 70 yrs, my eyes are getting so I "NEED" a scope! IMO, the perfect scope is a one power(no magnification), zeroed with both eyes open, at what ever range still puts the POI on at 25 yds, and utilizing a German post reticle!
What ever helps you place shots properly, is what should be used! That is as long as you realize that for every advantage there is an oppisite, and equal disadvantage. unfortunently, some of us must accept that, and practice to minimumize the disadvantages as much as possible.

It is fine for a youngster, with 20-20 vision, to say what the vision impared should do,because everyone is allowed his opinion, but I think it is takeing one's self a little too seriously, to do so!

This is so typical...50% for and against.

How many "kids" with 20-20 eyesight are hunting elephant?

No matter what you are doing now, in the long run it is not a good idea to use a scope. Too dangerous. And Buzz has seen more bubbas than most anyone around here. Same goes for sticks.

All you have to do is watch the video of Ann, and no criticism indended, but come on.

Is this the same Will who just recently was berating iron sight users saying that they were the main cause of all evil and and the primary reason poeple get injured and killed while big game hunting!?!

So what is it Will? Iron sights good or iron sights bad or does it just depend on the day?

I'm surprised no one has tried the newer Red dots,, the one used over in the sand box are getting beat to hell and still working, and battery life has been up to well over 2000 hours on most models..

Just as a side question ,,if your where to use one what size dot would you use larger? smaller?

From what I have seen posted and the photos of, it appears that the side brain is a very precise shot, where as the heart lung a little more forgiving.

Let's look at this issue with a try at being practical. When hunting elephant, because elephants are so infernally dangerous, the safety of your PH, trackers, game scout and oviously your self should be of prime and utmost importance. Since elephants are as they should be shot at close range (30 yds. is a long shot) and the most dangerous elephant isn't the one you are shooting at but the one you can't see that might be with in feet of you in the thick Jesse, having good peripheral vision is extremely important. Good peripheral vision is much easier for me with open sites than with a scope. I tend to get tunnel vision when looking through a scope. If you can use open sites rather than a scope you are in better shape to handle an unexpected close range charge when in the Jesse. It has happened to me twice with charging cows so I am a bit anal about this matter.

Saying that, some of us don't have good enough vision to use open sites effectively. Then a scope sight makes very good sense. But I suggest you keep the power low, a 1X woudld be perfect and practice, practice more and then practice even more to learn to automatically keep both eyes open when shooting. You don't need more than 1X for shots inside 30 yds. Your other option is to give up elephant hunting, not something most of us are willing to do.

There is no one size fits all answer to this question.

465H&H

One more thing to consider is where and how you are hunting. Hunting in the open and at reasonable distances where a scope would be handy is in contrast to chasing them around in thick jesse, where a scope IMO would be a hinderance.

But everyone should do what they want and learn by it, like before the internet!

One of the very best compromises out there is a large ring rear aperture ghost ring with a square white line front post.

They are excellent in low light. They are extremely fast to use. They are very accurate. And are much less difficult to use for people with poor vision than a regular V sight arrangement.

I'd venture to say there is no superior iron sight system in the world for close fast encounters.

This comes from real world experience. Which is the only thing I ever post about. Real world stuff that is. But it seems there is always some "expert" who will argue with anything that is posted no matter the source.

Will,

You posted this several months ago.

"Doing "whatever you want to" sounds good on the internet but if you shoot the damn thing in the leg and somebody gets hammered the "open-sight" crowd will be hard to find.

From what I hear most just barely get by with a scope. If you don't want to tap one of your rifles buy another one that is."
-----------------------------------------------

This is what I am refering to in my previous post. You've also made comments about not being able to shoot iron sights past 25 yards so on and so forth.

So I am a bit confused are you now recommending iron sights for use in elephant hunting. You have by far the most amount of experience on elephants of just about any sport hunter in the world. I am a neophyte hunter compared to you and value your opinion. But this latest comment leaves me a bit confounded.

I guess my question to you is;

Are you flip flopping on your previous solid opinion or are you just a crotchety, cantankerous , argumentative old bastard?

In places where 12 yards might constitute a long shot you don't want a scope.
Rich Elliott

Now I get it. I can see now that I overgeneralized. How's this:

20-20 young/middle-aged whippersnapper types who want to live long enough to become astigmatic/far-sighted/myopic old men should use express-type iron sights, because if they get charged at close range in the thick stuff, nothing is quicker.

Mildly astigmatic/far-sighted/myopic types of all ages should use low-powered scopes and pray to God that they don't get charged in the thick stuff, because if they do, they may not be able to tell through the limited field of view of their scope which of the elephant's wrinkles they are aiming at.

The half-blind should use medium powered scopes and shoot only at elephant sauntering along in the open at longer ranges, and still pray to God that they don't get charged, because after all, they're half-blind and have trouble telling elephant from baobabs.

The blind should stay home.

Or, to put it another way, IMHO, FWIW, based on my extremely limited but nonetheless highly memorable experiences hunting elephant, express iron sights are best, assuming that one can see them and the elephant beyond.

It's getting to where a guy can't say anything anymore without two pages of limitations and qualifications. Is this a thread on rifle sights for elephant hunting or a legal opinion?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Is this a thread on rifle sights for elephant hunting or a legal opinion?

It must be the former, since there are not nearly enough assumptions and qualifications for the latter, and you did not close with "This post is intended for your benefit only and is not to be provided to or relied upon by anyone else."

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma: The half-blind should use medium powered scopes and shoot only at elephant sauntering along in the open at longer ranges, and still pray to God that they don't get charged, because after all, they're half-blind and have trouble telling elephant from baobabs.

Or a TREE.

True, SHORT story told to me by a wonderful, gentlemanly hunter from Germany who I had the good fortune of sharing a camp with, and also by his PH from Namibia. "So we get very close to the elephant, and they put the shooting sticks up in front of me. I look through the scope and all I see is grey. The PH is telling me to SHOOT-SHOOT, and so I shot. But Bill, I could not tell what I was shooting at. The elephant ran off, I think I hit him but don't know where". PH says "He took forever on the sticks, I kept waiting for him to fire. Finally I look over and he then chooses to shoot. By the time I got back on the ele he was gone and I only got one shot into him, and the second I don't know. What is worse is that Mr xxxx hit a tree with his shot, he completely missed the elephant!!!". I felt bad for everybody, especially the ele, and the client was sick to his stomach. They looked for the ele for days. It was found, or what was left of it, a week later after the client had left, eventually succumbed to the .500gr bullet from the PH's double. Never did hear if the client got the ivory.

NOT making any point here, just a story too good not to share with the gallery!

465H&H, you provided an excellent answer to the original question!

Edit - PM Sent Mac per post below

Mrlexma: Well said! As for me, it's express sights without question.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Something to think about! I'd say probably a full 85% of client killed elephant, are shot with scoped Bolt action rifles! Another 5% are with Iron sights on double rifles, with the last 10% shot with iron sighted bolt rifles!

I'm not an elephant hunter, only because I can't afford it, but at the age of 70 yrs, my eyes are getting so I "NEED" a scope!Not for elephant, but for almost anything else, at times! IMO, the perfect scope is a one power(no magnification), zeroed with both eyes open, at what ever range still puts the POI on at 25 yds, and utilizing a German post reticle!
What ever helps you place shots properly, is what should be used! That is as long as you realize that for every advantage there is an oppisite, and equal disadvantage. unfortunently, some of us must accept that, and practice to minimumize the disadvantages as much as possible.

It is fine for a youngster, with 20-20 vision, to say what the vision impared should do,because everyone is allowed his opinion, but I think it is takeing one's self a little too seriously, to do so!

It seems the post above has brought about a little concern for my sanity! That is my mistake, because I should have said I need a scope ON OCCASION, but not for elephant. I made this mistake because I misstook this string for the one about putting a scope of a DGR, and I thought the fact that I'm not an elephant hunter, that was understood, Maybe not!

The italics injected in my above post, should have been there to start with, but I didn't think my post would shake the earth, and make the elephants nervous, Aparently I was wrong!

BillC asked in response to my being weak eyed, what was wrong with my eyes that I couldn't see an elephant at 25 yds. Suggesting I wear glasses, or contacts. He is right to ask, and my answer is I've had three new pairs of glasses this year, but the problem, if everyone must know is, I'm dealing with arrested Glaucoma,, and scar tissue on the surface of my eyes, from an old blasting injury. I can't wear contacs, and the glasses simply can't keep up with my eyes changeing. My father was totally blind when he died, at age 65 yrs with Glaucoma, I cought mine early, and I'm 70, and can still see the irons on my doubles, but a QD scope is nice at times, even on a double. With a low powered, or no powered scope so I can keep both eyes open, the scope gives me a much clearer look at fine detail, than the open sight only.

Will, said no kids hunted elephant, but he fails to realize, to me anyone under 50 yrs old is a kid! My doughter is 50 yrs old, and my youngest son is 44 yrs old.

I hope that clears everything up for you guys, if not let me know, and I'll try again!

I hunted bull eles in the Gongue river bed right bordering Matusadonna National Park..There were 40+ bulls and no cows...I got even to see a bull ele at 15 to 20ft in the thick jess...All one could see was his eye and I caught the movement of his ivory when he turned his head...It was impossible to see the rest of him...One may wonder how the hell can you be so close and not see an elephant...
That is why I am using express sights....

Mike

10 days till the Selous

Mac, I was not poking fun at you or, I hope, misconstruing you.

Rather, I was poking fun at the idea that every statement made hereabouts needs to be qualified and limited to the point that every assumption behind it, no matter how obvious, must be stated so clearly that an imbecile would "get it."

I would be the last to suggest that no one on earth should use a scope vs. an elephant. For some, it is an absolute necessity. So, should they be banned from hunting elephant? Hell, no.

But, it's another question as to what's best for those with all (or most) of their visual faculties.

You were not wrong. I was merely being insensitive in an effort to be humorous. That is one of my ingrained personality traits. I hope you were not offended.

Sure, now you are backsliding. I guess every comedy skit can't be a winner.

What about quick release scope mounts???

Would this not give you the best of both worlds?

First a comment, then a question.
I've never shot an elephant, and probably never will, but, how about a Trijicon Acog scope? No batteries, powered by available light. You learn to shoot with both eyes open. Right eye, red dot on the animal, left eye, surrounding area. I've got one on my .50 Alaskan which I use for Brown Bear hunting in thick brush.I love it.
Question.... Why do you have to get so close to an elephant before shooting? Is the kill area small? Are they so hard to kill, that you have to be close? With a well placed shot, could you kill an elephant at 50 yards?
Thanks.
Inquiring minds want to know. (At least one.)

For the rush TJ this coming from me who has never seen a wild Elephant.

Top Predator
You have the ultimate, correct answer.
A proper scope in QD mounts gives you the choice.
Use a scope when you need it, iron sights when you don't.