Gents,
Sooner or later I will probably be at it again
Most published reports here emphasize - so to speak - the value of open sights for ele hunts.Mostly that at the preferred short distances a scope would cause a delay in target acquisition - I think.

That thought makes a lot of sense to me.But, I happen to be a scope user all my life,believing that the open sight takes quite a bit more shooting to train your sighting than placing a crosshair.

So what I am saying - I am conceeding that open sights are better, but would like to hear from any hunter that has used both or is sticking with scopes.
Is a scoped rifle still useful at 20y?
Hate to have to get yet another iron stick

thanks for any input

I have shot 3 Eles. 2 with scoped guns, a 375 Mdl 70 and a 416Rigby CZ. 1 with a 470 Merkel.
Lost the first one with the 375,got the next one with the Merkel and took the last one with the Rigby. Brain shot,heart shot,heart shot. Distance about the same in all cases under 30 yds. Scope not needed but not a disadvantage either. If I ever get another chance it will probably be with the Merkel.

I carried QR mounts on my Lott for ele...Once you enter the heavy jess a scope is useless...Shot my bull at 30 feet and was as close as 20 feet...In open terrain not a problem...
I will be hunting ele this summer and a double rifle and express sights is the recipe..

I too am a scope shooter and I can even shoot with both eyes open with a scope..

Mike

I've used a 2x scope on elephant and buff with no problems. First buff was taken in the tall grass...( read: over head high) @ 20yds. Not sure I'd go with a scope again however. That said however...as my eyes have aged, I have mounted a red dot on my DG rifle. Shoots Great, no magnification. I'd like to try it for the big stuff.

For those who might be interested, Birchwood Casey makes a two pen (paint) set for touching front sights. I just did my .458 Lott's front sight with the flourescent orange set. You put a base of white on the bead and follow up with the orange. Wow! What a difference that makes in seeing that front sight! They also make a two pen kit in white (base color) and red. I prefer the orange for brightness. Some of you might want to try it. I think I paid around $12.95 for the two pen set.

My personal preference these days is for red dot sights. Can keep both eyes open like I used to be able to do with peep sights. A scope is essential for night PAC work. I have done it often enough with a game scout holding a spotlight and trying to manouver to see the sights to know that there is a beter plan!

There is nothing wrong to use a low magnification scope with a broad field of view. At 2.5 X and both eyes open I can acquire the target much easier at 15 to 25 yards than with open sights.

My only elephant...



Scoped rifle, elephant at 13 yards....

This is the shot:



I did not feel the scope was a hinderance even that close. Obviously it was cranked all the way down.

Thanks for the encouragements , all.
What a shot Ann !,those pictures I am sure are sweet memories

I like open sights with the front bead filed flat and at an angle, with the top toward the muzzle. This makes the bead stand out and the whole of the flat facet of the bead is lighted the same no matter what the lighting conditions. With rounded beads the light may hightlight one side or section while leaving the other shaded.

For those who would like or might need a very visible and bright front bead, look at New England Custom Guns' (NECG) fibre optic front sights. They seem to glow in about any light. They are available in a variety of heights and sizes for many types of mounting. Since they stand out so much, I'd sugest trying the smaller sizes first.

JPK

Ditto for the recommendation for use of a low powered scope. Used them on both of my eles and found the scope to be invaluable in the jess in picking a path for the bullet, even at 13 yards! And yes I have used them on a charge and at 1.75x it worked quite nicely! I think it gets back to what are you the most familiar with.

Sheephunter,

I don't feel it is a matter of one being better than the other. Rather it is a function of what you are used to and what you perform better with.

A properly mounted (read low to the receiver) low power scope such as a 1.5X5 or a 1.75X6 is a super fast targeting system.

It is my experience however, that anything over about 2 power is a hindrance at super close range.

I really like the Vari X III/ 1.75X6 by Leupold. On 1.75 power you can clearly acquire targets within mere feet in fact you can focus and aim at pebbles at your feet. And the 6 power allows for any and all magnification you may need on any hunting trip. It is the best all around useful scope on the market in my opinion.

That being said I've shot nearly all of my dangerous game with either ghost rings or express sights. They are what I am comfortable with in DG hunting scenarios. To me it’s more about the way the rifle handles and simplicity of function that an iron sighted rifle offers. I like a DG rifle to handle like a fine fowling piece to swing, hang, and point like a lightening rod. Scopes do make a rifle have a somewhat awkward feel. Under 200 yards there isn’t $.10 difference in accuracy if you are a decent iron sighted hand. It is however a skill that takes practice and constant attention to stay competent at. Which is why I wouldn’t recommend anybody try to learn irons just for the sake of one hunt.

I've only killed one elephant it was at 42 yards and I screwed up the first attempt at a side brain shot (A little low) the next shot was in the shoulder. That was about the time the PH opened up in any case my next shot hit the brain and killed her. This was more of a case of not knowing my anatomy than poor shooting I hit her where I thought the brain was on the first shot. Next time I’ll "get er done" with one.

As you can see, I am by no means an elephant tyro!

Just my humble $.02

Greg

i have shot 13 elephants all with a scope, i'm switching this trip to open sights, I've had 2 charges with the scope and its useless under those circumstances-infact its dangerous, you cant see what your shooting at.

When hunted in thick forest often one only sees pieces of elephant and that at extremely close range. For this work the scope...even a 1X power loses the depth perception needed to ID the target. I had a 1/8th" white bead on my .458 Lott and a single steel shallow VEE rear sight. Today, I would use a ghost sight for the rear as my eyes aren't what they used to be. I have only used a scope on one elephant and that was in fairly open country and about 40 yards away.

As I related on another thread recently, I once saw a guy miss an elephant at 20 yards with a scope sighted .460 Weatherby. In that case; however, I don't think that it was the scopes fault.

Rich Elliott

Eric,

What power scope are you using?

I have not hunted ele, i've never been to africa, but i don't think a scope is neccisary(spell check) at close ranges like this. Keep in mind i've been a iron sight shooter my whole life and feel a little weird using scopes. Im just not use to them. But like i said do you really need a scope at a range of less then 50 yards?

Corey,
to answer your question
open sight,iron sights take more finesse than simply placing a dot on target.
Secondly,more important: if due to age maybe you dont focus that well at close range,you cannot reliably align open sights unless you are wearing glasses.
I never thought about the later until it was pointed out here.

Sheephunter,

The part of your post about needing glasses is just not true. I either need reading glasses or need to hold the newspaper or menu at arms length. But I sure as hell don't need glasses to shoot open express sights. You don't really focus on the sights when you shoot, instead you "see through" them. With a little practice you will shoot better than you thought possible and certainly better than if you are concentrating on the sights.(Editted to point out that be focusing on the target you see all of the target detail, which is not there if you are looking at your sights) I do less than four shots into 2" at 25yds on a bad day and much better on a good day with my DR. Good vs bad days are only concentration, this is no issue when you have five tons or so of DG in front of you. 25 yds is typical of elephant range.(Editted to mention that the groups are offhand with no rest.)

With a ghost ring sight you simply put the bead on the target. I shoot about the same with a very generous peep sight as with express sights at 25yds but I shoot the same at 50yds with the peep as at 25 and not much off that at 75 or 100. This is not the case with express sights where my groups open up more than linearly past 35yds or so, but still fine for elephants and good for say buff at 75yds or even 100yds, which is farther than I want to shoot a buff anyway..

I have shot plenty of game with low mag scopes, and some of it has been rally close, some running, well within elephant range. I would not ever wish to hunt with a scope for elephants because no matter how low your magnification is with a scope you are still looking through a tunnel and loosing perspective. Perspective is important when elephant hunting!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
i have shot 13 elephants all with a scope, i'm switching this trip to open sights, I've had 2 charges with the scope and its useless under those circumstances-infact its dangerous, you cant see what your shooting at.

I think its a 2.5-10X most of them were at the lowest setting, The gun is at my other house I'll go there tomarrow and verify the power. occasionally i would move it a bit higher when I was up on the sticks when I was waiting for the elephant to turn, I did this a couple times on 40-50 yard shots but only when things were"going slow" if I came off the sticks and had to reposition I would turn the scope down immeaditally.

I only even made the mistake of having the power set to high once, on my first bull it was about half way up so 5 or 6X and it happened to be my closest shot as well 12 paces, it looked like a 747, its a 56mm objective so that helped-dosent that give a wider field of view as well as more light? never made that mistake again,

thats why i'm going iron sights for the next 10 elephants I want to round out my skills, the first few with iron sights might be tough, i only brain them.

as a side note from memorie I have shot 5 maybe 6 off hand. I know the last 4 this year I did and 2 were one shot kills, I shot my first elephant in 2001. i didnt hunt in 2004 because my mom was sick,

quote:

I would not ever wish to hunt with a scope for elephants because no matter how low your magnification is with a scope you are still looking through a tunnel and loosing perspective. Perspective is important when elephant hunting!

No offense JPK, but this can be overcome if you shoot with both eyes open.

Not being an ele hunter and unlikely to ever afford it,
I've used my Aimpoint 2000 long enough that I'd trust my life to that HUGE (relatively) lithium battery and LED...

There is no better fast engagement sight than a red dot.

I can hit bowling pins at 75yards three times with my 12GA pump slug gun, once on the ground once when the pin bounces into the air and again as it hits the ground
This of course presumes that the pin stays in one piece that long...

If you can make yourself shoot with both eyes open you can do some amazing things...


AllanD

I have hunted elephant in only two countries, only for about three and a half weeks in total, and I have killed only one of them, but in that time, and given the elephant we saw and the ranges to which we stalked them, I could not imagine ever needing or wanting a scope.

If a scope is used, the field of view would be important. Here are a few comparisons (low power at 100 yds):

Leu VX III 1.75-6 X 32 51 Ft
Leu VX III 1.5-5 X 20 65.7 Ft
Leu VX II 1-4 X 20 75 Ft
Swaro PV1 1.25-4 X 24 98.4 Ft

[QUOTE]Originally posted by surestrike:

It is my experience however, that anything over about 2 power is a hindrance at super close range.

I really like the Vari X III/ 1.75X6 by Leupold. On 1.75 power you can clearly acquire targets within mere feet in fact you can focus and aim at pebbles at your feet.

(/QUOTE]

Eric,

I am not trying to convince anybody to use a scope or not. Merely as I stated above anything over 2 power is a hinderance at super close range.

I am also an iron sighted shooter primarily. If you are going to use a scope on DG a 1.75 or lower bottom end is the only way to go.

I see too many Americans in the field with WAY to much scope on their rifles and those are usually mounted way too high to be of any use in a fast close shooting situation.

Greg

Bwanamrm,

I do shoot with both eyes open up close with a low magnification scope, at least, and I still loose perspective, especially to the left as I am left handed.

JPK

Sheephunter,
If your eyes are older than mine, you must be long in the tooth, indeed. I'll never be able to afford elephants but I've taken two buff with ghost rings and don't feel any need for a scope on DG. One was at 60 yards and the other at 110. While my father started me with scopes due to my serious near-sightedness, I learned to shoot with irons in the Army and feel that with just a bit of practice, you will do as will with peeps out to 200 yards as you can with a scope, especially on game. Prairie dogs are another story but you asked about elephant and those are some big targets. If express sights bother you, just go with a peep and you won't be the slightest bit handicapped.

I shot my elephant with 3 X Leupold at NINE PACES and I would not recomend a scope unless it had 75-100 feet field of view at 100 yards. Thats 7-10 feet at 10 yards which still is not all of an elephant sideways.

Good advice is to check FOV as OldCoyote did.

Andy

Inever hunted elephants but i killed some water buffalos most of them after being shot by clients and some of them charging ,i can say that one in 20 charges but if you hunt with dogs as i hunt in heavy cover areas the posibility is greater, ok ,i prefer short open sigthed rifles like my custom 1909 mauser in 458 with a barrel of 20inches .juan

I shot 1 ele with a scope and 9 without. The scope was a big mistake, IMO, even though it was a 2.5x Leup with a good field of view.