Mark,

You should let this die. Making declarative statements about what someone should or should not hunt with or deciding what is right or wrong gets into dangerous territory.

This thread has already resulted in the recounting of more first-hand experience than you could find in a half dozen books.

Let it go!

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I have a question regarding velocity. I believe all the big doubles are in the vicinity of 2150 fps. The execption is the .500/.416 which is a 400 grain bullet around 2300.

The big .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .460 Wby etc all get to the magic 2400 fps velocity. The critisim of the .458 Win Mag has been velocity, hence the .458 Lott was developed.

Is velocity an important point in your mind?

In my experience once you get to 2,200 fps your better off to increase bullet weight and/or bullet diameter than increase velocity further for DG.

465H&H

Baised on the elephant and buff, and the one lion I have shot with my doubles I see no need for velocity over 2200fps in the over 40 cal rifles.
The longest shots I have made with the 450 No2 were the first 2 on a Giraffe at @188 yards, and with the 450/400 a caribou at @150, both with iron sights.

My 286 gr loads in my 9,3x74R go under 2250fps, and I have killed all manner of NA and African plains game, including a giraffe, cape buff and elephant.

I see velocity above 2200fps as an aid to longer range shooting [flatter trafectory ,more bullet expanding velocity] with a medium bore or a smaller bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I have a question regarding velocity. I believe all the big doubles are in the vicinity of 2150 fps. The execption is the .500/.416 which is a 400 grain bullet around 2300.

The big .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .460 Wby etc all get to the magic 2400 fps velocity. The critisim of the .458 Win Mag has been velocity, hence the .458 Lott was developed.

Is velocity an important point in your mind?

Buliwyf, velocity is important in any rifle, but not in the way you are intemateing!

The velocity that is important to a double rifle shooter is called a "window of velocity" and that is a window that works best on large game. The 458 Win mag was often below that window, in it's early days of existance, and struggles to make that grade even today. The 458LOTT was brought out to boost the 458 easily into that window, but dummy speed freaks pushed the LOTT higher than it needed it to be. The extra case capacity was just enough to make the 2150fps easy without boosting chamber pressures! With a 500 gr bullet, the LOTT loaded up to 2150 exactly matches the 470NE, and that is all that is needed.

On the other end the bolt rifle crowd seems to want every foot of speed they can get, to the point of destroying bullets, when it isn't needed. In fact, tests have been run that finds speeds over about 2400 fps, actually causes less penetration, or viered off line bullets in large animals.

This all stems from a discovery that a solid, or soft point bullet from .400 cal to as big as you want to go, needs no more than 2100-2300 fps to accomplish the needed killing power for large animals. Anything above, or below that window is basiclly wasted effort in powder,chamber pressures, and recoil, or lack of penetration on the low end! This is why all double rifles from .400 up, are regulated within this window!

The rounds that actually need velocity to do their job better are small bores from .375 cal down. The large bores don't need anything above the "WINDOW!.

M ac is full of baloney when it comes to the 458wm. He must be basing his experience on...?...It is easy to acheive, say, 2100 with a 500gr bullet and none too difficult to hit 2150 or even 2200fps. Any of the loadings listed above beat the real world performance of the 450 NE, the grandfather of all DG NE cartridges.

Just two fellows in Zimbabwe killed near 10,000 elephants between them with the 458wm and neither reported a problem.

Pick the right powder and bullet and a 458wm will do anything required and more and do it better today than ever before.

(I am not denying problems with early ammo, but the rumors outnumber the reports by a "thousand percent")

Crusher,

No experience with dangerous game or double rifles, eh?

JPK

Ah, the 458 Win Mag.... it needs its own seperate thread...

I'll give it one.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
M ac is full of baloney He must be basing his experience on...?...

(I am not denying problems with early ammo, but the rumors outnumber the reports by a "thousand percent")
JPK

You just can't resist mentioning my name can you Hoss? Then to go to the other thread and make a point with the same childish remarks, sounds a little personal to me! JPK, if you have a personal problem with me, just say so, and do me a favor, and place me on your ignore list!

All I said is exactly what you said. The 458 had problems in it's early days, and the LOTT case is just larger enough to make it easier to get what the 458 Win Mag was supposed to do in the first place, without increasing chamber pressures! Even today it takes VERY careful handloading to get the 458WM to act right. I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that it is easier with the LOTT case! BYE!

Mac,

First, I do not have a problem with you.

Second, I reread your post and you are right, you said more or less what I said. I clearly read your post incorrectly.

Third, I meant no insult or sarcasm and I appologize if my post seemed to convey some insult or sarcasm.

On the other hand, I find reloading for the 458wm very easy and find reaching, say, 2135fps with a 500gr bullet - my Woodleigh load - simple with no compaction and no drop tube. I have had some of my loads pressure tested and they are not near maximum either.

JPK

Buy a custom bolt gun, hunt with it and then sell it, you will normally get about 25 cents on the dollar invested.

Buy a good English double, hunt with it and sell it, you will make a sack full of money. I have owned many doubles and mostly doubled my investment when I sold them, then lost that investment on a horse as a rule!

I believe the good old doubles are as good of an investment as you can have today, mine have made me more money than the stock market has.

If I was facing a charging elephant, I would prefer a double, if I were facing several charging elephants I would want a AK-47, or a 5 round bolt gun.

As long as your happy with your choice all is well, there is no correct answer to this thread. As with most things, we make our choice and we live with the results, and that can go either way, fate plays its hand,

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

As long as your happy with your choice all is well, there is no correct answer to this thread. As with most things, we make our choice and we live with the results, and that can go either way, fate plays its hand,

Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
I'm 64 yrs old and for at least the last 25 have been searching for that mythical double that comes alive in your hands. The sauer double seemed O.K. but wasn't traditional enough,the Merkel has too much drop and is barrel heavy, the Chapius is just barrel heavy, I like the idea of the Searcy but is increasing in price faster than my ability to buy . Luke Samaras shared with me that he felt the English doubles were the most likely to come alive in your hands and further indicated he felt the best bolt guns were made in the U.S.A.. The Heym is still out there and I'd like to examine it but it appears I'll be hunting the same old way . With a M70 african 416R. Is there really a reasonably priced, well balanced double out there.

You are quite correct, in my opinion. Most doubles are clubs, and it is only the peashooters like the Chapuis 9.3x74R that are really nice handling doubles.

If one could get a manufacturer to make 8 lb. 450/400's or 470's then there would be hope.

Many of the old English doubles even in the 450/400 weigh in at 11 lbs. plus. Now there would be a handful!

First let me say I love double rifles and have owned a bunch in my life. That said, I have asked about 8 different PHs their feelings about clients using doubles. To a man they all said they would prefer their clients have a bolt gun with a low power scope. The feeling is the double is a defensive weapon and not what the client should use. All felt it was limiting when hunting buffalo where a 125 or 150 yard shot might be appropriate or when a precise shot into a herd is necessary.
It is a rare PH who will take his client into the thick stuff following something wounded so the doubles need comes from the spontaneous unexpected charge. If a buff with a poachers snare on his leg decides to give you a whack, you will be fortunate to get off one shot if any at all.
The double represents the old Africa we all dream of. If carrying one is part of the dream, go for it. If carrying the best gun for the job at hand is your goal, get a reliable bolt with a good quality low power scope.
Twice I took a double rifle with me and in both cases by the second or third day it was in the truck and my 416 Rigby was in my hand.

I am always happy with a double rifle at hand when entering the Jesse bush thickets after Jumbo. As is my PH who now owns my last double.
Believe me a double is a gift if in thick bush with ele at close quarters.
A charge can happen so fast that you don't even have time to shout out.
This is the type of hunting that I feel a double has the edge and is not just a fine sporting tool.
One could always flick pointed sticks at them .

ozhunter

IMO, too much is made of the so-called shortcomings of double rifles! I find the shortcomings are with the shooter/handloader, not with the rifle! I would venture to say, a full 90% of the opinions that a double rifle is limiting in most hunting in Africa, or anyplace else comes from those who have never hunted with, or at least have only limited hunting experience with a properly loaded double rifle!

There is no question, a well made, and scoped bolt rifle, will be far better for 300 yd shots on any game animal that requires pin point accuracy, over an iron sighted double, or even an iron sighted bolt rifle.

With iron sights the double rifle, properly loaded, is at no disadvantage to a bolt with the same sights. Mount a scope on a double , and it is no less accurate than any equally scoped single barreled hunting rifle, of like chambering.

However, I have never been in a place in Africa where a 300 yd shot was needed, because I couldn't get closer. When it comes to dangerous game........WELL, they just ain't too dangerous at 300 yds! Like any rifle, the double rifle shooter must do his part, to make them work as they are capable of working. There are a group of folks that post right here on this web-site, that would worry me a lot more,when shooting in my dirrection, with malice on their minds, than a lot of folks I've seen shooting bolt rifles!

There in no argument that the double is a fine defencive weapon, far better than a bolt rifle in that sittuation, but first, and foremost, and double rifle is a "HUNTING RIFLE"

Come on Mac, you never met a double you didn't like!

Mac,

What you just stated is 100% CORRECT.

Some here who are admittedly sub standard shots with iron sights try very hard to project their short comings with any rifle onto a double as those shooting flaws are magnified in a heavy rifle.

Any heavy rifle.

I can punch 200 yard steel all day long with an iron sighted double. All it takes is a bit of practice and knowing where to hold. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER RIFLE.

I've killed a Wildebeest at 218 lazed yards with an iron sighted .470NE.

The only shortcomings with a double are in the shooter.

These statements about "I only use iron sights at 25 yards" are bordering on ridiculous but if true are a serious indictment to LOUSY shooting ability.

Those of us who use iron sights and practice with our chosen weapons know better.