Quote,"Also, to answer Mark's question, I would absolutely NOT hunt dangerous game with a PH that didn't use a double. In my opinion, a PH using a bolt gun to back up clients on DG is a big No-No."

If I remember correctly, I asked Gary Duckworth, Barry Duckworth's son of Mokore Safaris what kind of rifle he was going to use when I hunt with him in October and he said a .458 Lott bolt rifle.

Might want to relax the PH requirement. Few hunt with doubles.

But most of them want a double and for the same reason: Cool factor.

Unfortunately there is nothing cool about a guy owning a double and being an average or below average shooter.

And lets not forget that (I reckon) a good man could reload a bolt faster than a um. slow one with a double could decide to get a 2nd AIMED shot off. (Not meaning anyone on this thread though.)

All you have to do is look at the video of that guy winging off four shots with his 404 on new_guy's (Chris') Heym website to see that 4 from a bolt is a hell of a lot faster than a double.

But all of this has little to do with anything but the cool factor.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
All you have to do is look at the video of that guy winging off four shots with his 404 on new_guy's (Chris') Heym website to see that 4 from a bolt is a hell of a lot faster than a double.

The stress of shooting charging paper is less. Easier to fumble a second shot from a bolt action when the beastie is real, than the second shot from a double.

Whether more stressful or less stressful, he still did an excellent job of it.

I want that guy as my backup!

IMHO, doubles are good for follow ups on wounded DG (when a charge may be expected). That's why they're especially handy (but by no means necessary) if you're a PH.

They're also good to have when hunting DG in extremely thick brush where the action happens at close range.

In both situations the faster second shot can be important.

Otherwise, give me a bolt rifle every time. And except for elephant, which are shot at extremely close range, give me a bolt rifle with a low powered variable scope on it.

I have thought a double would come in handy only a couple of times when hunting DG - in particular when following up wounded lion in thick stuff at very close quarters.

And even then I managed to put killing shots into the cats I was chasing, one of which was charging, and both of which were at or inside 20 yards, with a scoped bolt rifle. That's cool enough for me.

I will concede though, that for off the charts cool, one would have to hunt in the buff, except for a white turban, while toting a .500/.465 H&H Royal double.

Mrlexma,

One can always count on you for droll. I love the mental immage of Taylor in nothing but a turban and double...

Mark,

I think the double gives a real advantage in a close encounter. As you know they do happen and not only with wounded game.

I have a double for that reason, but also because I don't have to make the choice between the double and the trophy fee. If I did I whould take the ele every day of the week. No doubt most of us would.

Brett

i'll be taking my double on my next safari, used a single shot on my first and only so far.

oh, and my choice is based solely on looks, handling and nostalgia. if the choice were between a bolt rifle and a nice single i'd pick the single evey time......for any game.

I use both and have for a number of years, I don't much care one way or the other as to what is best, one is as good as the other..

I think using a double is more fun, and maybe a bit more challanging but not enough to make a lot of difference. I love the way a double handles and looks more than anything else, and I just love nice guns.

It's all about fun and games, whatever blows your skirt up Scotty..

Ray,

I agree with you, but I'm not wearing a skirt.

I have no experience with a double gun. However, I believe the second quick shot on close-up damegerous game would be very valuable, but the main reason I'd want one is for nostalgia AKA: Coolness. I can't imagine how cool it would be to go to Africa and hunt bull elephant in the thick stuff with a double rifle.

just to add another 2 cents worth - the very reason for doubles is that it is 2 rifles in 1. if the one barrel doesn't go off, there is always the 2nd. sort of like the reason some people prefer carrying a revolver for protection instead of an auto. beside that EVERYONE KNOWS that doubles are twice as good

Is it a must to have a double rifle when hunting dangerous game? NO! A good man with a bolt rifle can slam a chargeing buffalo pritty hard, as was demonstrated by the guy Will mentioned on New-Guy's web-site. Is there more chance of a malfunction when useing a bolt rifle in a tight sittuation, where speed, and accuracy is a must? Yes there is, simply because of more movements needed to do it right, and quick. The more manipulations one needs to accomplish a task, the more likelyhood of a miss-step!

No rifle on earth is 100 % reliable, and a man who has not used a double will lagg far behind a man who has used a bolt rifle all his life, however, if both are equally skilled with his chosen system, IMO, the double will come out slightly ahead. There are no guarintees however!

I love well made double rifles, but I also love well made rifles of any system, and I can hold my own with a bolt rifle very well, but when the chips are down, and fight is close, give me a double every time!

It's all a matter of choice, IMO, and a "reliable" double is no more expencive that a very well made, and equally reliable bolt rifle, and nobody buys a rifle of any kind to use only once, so a $8K to $10K rifle of either type wll last a man a life time with proper care. $10K won't even buy a good used car, that will last maybe two or three years! So quit cher bitchin, and buy what you want, and use it to shoot what you want! Mine will likely be a double!

The big double is in it's own in the thick Jesse after elephant, buffalo or lion or when following up any wounded DG animal. That is until you meet some of Ian Nyschen's "Zambezi Ladys". As the number of elephants trying to turn you into blood pudding increases the advantage of the bolt rifle goes up proportionately. IMHO

465H&H

After 175 votes it would seem that the proportion of double shooters is about 1 for every 3 bolt shooters. That surprises me. I'm afraid though that none of the rest associated comments produced any revelations.

What I got out of all this primarily was that people feel the double is an important part of their total safari experience. To carry and shoot your game with the double adds another dimension to the safari making the hunting just more fun. That sounds like enough reason to hunt with one in itself.

I do think the other arguments for hunting with a double as opposed to a bolt rifle like it's better in a fight, it's an investment, it's not really more expensive than a bolt rifle don't really hold water in 99.9% of cases. Will said the attraction was the cool factor and it certainly would seem that is the motivating factor in most cases of a double rifle purchase.

I'd like to have a double but when I talk about $10,000 and up in disposable income it always has trophy fees come to mind before any rifle everytime. Also I think after hunting with a bolt rifle for 48 years I really don't want to learn another shooting discipline which you do need to learn with a double.

Have fun with a double if that turns your crank but I'll stick with my bolt rifles and spend the extra money on the hunt.

Mark

Mark,
It sounds as much as anything that the question of a bolt vs a double was heavily swayed by economics. While that's definitely something to consider, it takes away from the real question and discussion that most comments in this thread addressed, which is that a double has advantages in close and quick situations with dangerous game.
For the sake of discussion, if you're able to discount the issue of economics (which some proponents of a double are able to do) and only consider the merits of the two systems, I wouldn't be surprised if you'll find the polling quite a bit different.

Nope.

If some guy was hunting DG a couple HUNDRED days a year and was faced with multiple charges and life threatening situations, a double is probably justified.

It is just cool for us mere mortals though.

Will,

You only need to save your life, or the life of one of the team, once to know that the double is cheap insurance. No one can predict if or when the trouble will occur. Your first day in the bush after DG or the last day after decades of hunting or maybe never. And despite anyones best efforts, experience, practice, not every shot by anyone will always be perfect.

And since you have been in such a situation, it always comes as a suprise that you relegate a double to the status as a mere fashion accessory.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
After 175 votes it would seem that the proportion of double shooters is about 1 for every 3 bolt shooters. That surprises me. I'm afraid though that none of the rest associated comments produced any revelations.

What I got out of all this primarily was that people feel the double is an important part of their total safari experience. To carry and shoot your game with the double adds another dimension to the safari making the hunting just more fun. That sounds like enough reason to hunt with one in itself.

I do think the other arguments for hunting with a double as opposed to a bolt rifle like it's better in a fight, it's an investment, it's not really more expensive than a bolt rifle don't really hold water in 99.9% of cases. Will said the attraction was the cool factor and it certainly would seem that is the motivating factor in most cases of a double rifle purchase.

I'd like to have a double but when I talk about $10,000 and up in disposable income it always has trophy fees come to mind before any rifle everytime. Also I think after hunting with a bolt rifle for 48 years I really don't want to learn another shooting discipline which you do need to learn with a double.

Have fun with a double if that turns your crank but I'll stick with my bolt rifles and spend the extra money on the hunt.

Mark

By my count the number is about 66 to 100 or 2 to 3 when you count those who will also have a scoped bolt along for longer shots.

JPK

I have spoken to quite a few PH's that stated to me thay they would use a double if they could afford one.

Also for the sport hunter....
Do not compare an iron sighted double to a scoped bolt rifle.

I was never out to prove anything in the double vs bolt rifle debate.

However after using doubles for quite a bit of my hunting here in NA, and for all but 3 animals in Africa [I just wanted to shoot something with my Blaser R 93 on the Dark Continent], I have discovered that they are superior to the bolt gun for most hunting.

Since most of us do more "deer" type hunting than elephant hunting, I suggest you get a scoped double in 7x65, 30-06, 8x57, or my favorite 9,3x74R. Hunt with it for 4 or 5 years, and get back to me.

Use it for deer, wild pigs, elk, black bear etc.

You too just might become a believer.

JPK,

As for a dangerous situation arising, even in a couple HUNDRED days of hunting (I goofed up my now edited previous post) there is little chance of the situation requiring more than the two shots from a double and indeed it would be handy, if not life saving.

There are situations where a whole herd of eles could intentionally or accidentally come crashing your way. Though it has never happened to me, and hope it doesn't, this to me is a clear situation when a bolt rifle with a big magazine has it all over a double!

The double is basically a two-shooter, for the do-or-die close charge, but that is a separate heated debate.

Big bore bolts hold around 3 to 4 rounds, some may hold 5.
In herd charge situation, thjey might have a small advantage in "staying power"., assuming you do not have a "jam" of some kind. However once they are empty, they are less effecient than the double.
The double will prove faster to "top off" and keep in continued action than the bolt.

Which is more common, a charge by a single animal, or a "herd charge"????

Bottom line is use what you are most comfortable with.

A double is not only best for the "do or die charge", but also best for the "I hit him with the first one but he is still standing, and I need to hit him again" before he runs away.

I have used that feature quite a bit with my doubles, ie hit the animal with the second shot from a double when it would have been imposible with a bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

As for a dangerous situation arising, even in a couple HUNDRED days of hunting (I goofed up my now edited previous post) there is little chance of the situation requiring more than the two shots from a double and indeed it would be handy, if not life saving.

There are situations where a whole herd of eles could intentionally or accidentally come crashing your way. Though it has never happened to me, and hope it doesn't, this to me is a clear situation when a bolt rifle with a big magazine has it all over a double!

The double is basically a two-shooter, for the do-or-die close charge, but that is a separate heated debate.

Will, I have read of a recent - within a couple of years, iirc - case in Zim where the PH and hunter had to shoot multiple elephants - I recall seven - while retreating as the herd kept coming.

I have been chased by a herd of about fifteen cows at Humani in the Save Conservancy while hunting with Rich Tabor. But for running into a very opportune big dry pan where we stood out in the open, while the elephants screamed at us where they stopped at the edge of the cover, we might have ended up in a similar predicament where we needed to shoot and keep shooting. I was counting the ammo in my belt while hi-tailing it (I was down to six rounds, including the two in the rifle, as this was the tail of the safari) and it occured to me that I didn't have near enough and that Rich, who shoots a 470, and I better have damn good coordination or we might find that we were both empty at the wrong time.

Also, when it comes to warning shots, letting one fly from a double can be risky.

Still, I think the mass charge or panic is the lesser probability compared to the single coming. But your comment, like 465H&H's, has the ring of truth.

JPK

I think that the Fuchs double barrel repeater has Will's name written all over it! Single trigger version, of course....

Twice the rifle maybe.
at least 10 times the money definatly.
after you have searched and scraped to buy this antique technology you get the real elitist ass clowns telling you its not a _________ brand or _____ lock or _____ cal. but you look and feel cool anyway.

So now you own the f-ing wonder relic of rifles you find its not as accurate or easy to use with extras triggers and manual of arms totaly forighn to you but hey it is cooler than a fan on high.

The amazing new double has loosend your teeth made you cross eyed and caused you to go deaf. your wife has left you she says your obsesion is unhealthy. you are broke from feeding the new rifle 10$ a bang ammo. but the rice bean and peanut butter diet goes with the new teeth. end of the day it is great comfort to you to know that you look cooler than the bolt action nuckle draggers, you posess cutting edge 19th century tech. that works better than the bolt in exactly one senario the fast follow up to f-ed up shot. man that is gooder than an oreo cookie and you look so cool I want you to come by the house so I can introduce you to my sister.

I don't buy the "I don't want to give up the money to buy a double, I would rather use it to hunt" philosophy. I look at my two doubles as investments. When all my money is used up I can sell my doubles and afford two or three more hunts. It is like having a bank account for future hunts. I may even make a little profit off of them but my enjoyment of hunting and owning them is worth more to me.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
Twice the rifle maybe.
at least 10 times the money definatly.
after you have searched and scraped to buy this antique technology you get the real elitist ass clowns telling you its not a _________ brand or _____ lock or _____ cal. but you look and feel cool anyway.

So now you own the f-ing wonder relic of rifles you find its not as accurate or easy to use with extras triggers and manual of arms totaly forighn to you but hey it is cooler than a fan on high.

The amazing new double has loosend your teeth made you cross eyed and caused you to go deaf. your wife has left you she says your obsesion is unhealthy. you are broke from feeding the new rifle 10$ a bang ammo. but the rice bean and peanut butter diet goes with the new teeth. end of the day it is great comfort to you to know that you look cooler than the bolt action nuckle draggers, you posess cutting edge 19th century tech. that works better than the bolt in exactly one senario the fast follow up to f-ed up shot. man that is gooder than an oreo cookie and you look so cool I want you to come by the house so I can introduce you to my sister.

Damn CRUSHER. Bad day?

A double rifle is a tool, and like any tool it has its best use. Basic design to keep things simple and eliminate variables that Mr Murphy invariably throws our way at the worst times possible. The short overall length makes it a great option in dense stuff.

As far as antique technology, the Mauser 98 action, which some say is the best bolt design ever, came out in 1898.

Factory ammo is expensive, which is one of the reasons why most double shooters reload.

They are more expensive than bolt rifles, no question about that. But if you compare today's better bolt rifles (Like a Mauser Magnum 98) to good double rifles (Merkel, Heym, Chapuis, etc), you are comparing $10,000 to double rifles in the $6000 to $16,000 range, depending on caliber.

That said, you can go crazy and drop $70,000 on a new Westley Richards or $200,000 on a Holland and Holland double. Just like dropping $40k or more on a new German bolt rifle.

These days, there are no real issues concerning accuracy. More than adequate for hunting. Probably would not win many target matches. But put a scope on a double and 300 yard kill shots are not a problem.

I thought long and hard before I bought a double. And asked myself how many shots had I taken at game at any one time (not counting "hail mary's" fired at wounded game). Lots of ones and twos. One three shot, and that was about it.

And if a quicker third shot is a criteria, a semi auto beats the bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by CRUSHER:
Twice the rifle maybe.
at least 10 times the money definatly.
after you have searched and scraped to buy this antique technology you get the real elitist ass clowns telling you its not a _________ brand or _____ lock or _____ cal. but you look and feel cool anyway.

So now you own the f-ing wonder relic of rifles you find its not as accurate or easy to use with extras triggers and manual of arms totaly forighn to you but hey it is cooler than a fan on high.

The amazing new double has loosend your teeth made you cross eyed and caused you to go deaf. your wife has left you she says your obsesion is unhealthy. you are broke from feeding the new rifle 10$ a bang ammo. but the rice bean and peanut butter diet goes with the new teeth. end of the day it is great comfort to you to know that you look cooler than the bolt action nuckle draggers, you posess cutting edge 19th century tech. that works better than the bolt in exactly one senario the fast follow up to f-ed up shot. man that is gooder than an oreo cookie and you look so cool I want you to come by the house so I can introduce you to my sister.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JPK,

As for a dangerous situation arising, even in a couple HUNDRED days of hunting (I goofed up my now edited previous post) there is little chance of the situation requiring more than the two shots from a double and indeed it would be handy, if not life saving.

There are situations where a whole herd of eles could intentionally or accidentally come crashing your way. Though it has never happened to me, and hope it doesn't, this to me is a clear situation when a bolt rifle with a big magazine has it all over a double!

The double is basically a two-shooter, for the do-or-die close charge, but that is a separate heated debate.

Will, I have read of a recent - within a couple of years, iirc - case in Zim where the PH and hunter had to shoot multiple elephants - I recall seven - while retreating as the herd kept coming.

I have been chased by a herd of about fifteen cows at Humani in the Save Conservancy while hunting with Rich Tabor. But for running into a very opportune big dry pan where we stood out in the open, while the elephants screamed at us where they stopped at the edge of the cover, we might have ended up in a similar predicament where we needed to shoot and keep shooting. I was counting the ammo in my belt while hi-tailing it (I was down to six rounds, including the two in the rifle, as this was the tail of the safari) and it occured to me that I didn't have near enough and that Rich, who shoots a 470, and I better have damn good coordination or we might find that we were both empty at the wrong time.

Also, when it comes to warning shots, letting one fly from a double can be risky.

Still, I think the mass charge or panic is the lesser probability compared to the single coming. But your comment, like 465H&H's, has the ring of truth.

JPK

I don't know whether I had dreamt about the warning shot last night or whether someone in addition to you has already said it but I was "thinking" the same thing.

It can take one, two, or more warning shots to stop a cow, assuming there is all that time for warning shots. Emptying a double with warning shots is spooky!

Thank God for those overpaid PH's.

I've said this before and will say it again,I've hunted small game for years with a double shotgun and if it is anything like it,it's a rifle that is not as reliable as a bolt action.

On my last 2 trips to Zim the PH and I had a plan on what we would do on an elephant charge if it was an elephant we did not want to shoot.
I had a double and he had a bolt 458 Lott.

If we could not "run away" or stop the charge by voice or actions... [Many charges are false, we faced several]

If possible I would fire the first warning shot, at the PH's direction, if that did not work then we would each have one round "under the trigger"to stop the charge.

We did not plan on shooting until 4 or 5 yards, maybe a little farther away depending on the actual demeanor of the elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Whether more stressful or less stressful, he still did an excellent job of it.

I want that guy as my backup!

Very true.

My comment was more for the average person, it is easier to just aim and pull the second trigger, than work the bolt full back, then full forward, re-aim and fire. When the stress level is up the more one has to do, the more chance of a stuff up ie bolt vs double.

But PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE reduces the risk factors.

I find the 6000 dollar bolt gun equal in sillyness to the 20000+ double.

Im just funnin you guys but I can buy a realy good bolt gun for a grand and the double of same quality is about 10 grand and folks get real excited if it shoots a 3' group. I get real excited when one of my rifles shoots 4 moa but for a different reason I think.

Hello Crusher,

Well said!!

I was going to let this thread fade away as it seemed to be deflating rapidly and nothing new was being said but it seems today some people have more to say about doubles vs bolts.

When I started this thread I basically knew how it would go and I have not heard anything to change my mind about my personal feelings on the subject.

I actually think a guy who has trained himself to be competent with a double and hunts with a double and another scoped rifle carried by one of the crew may have the best of all worlds when hunting elephant and buffalo. I can also see that a guy with some DG hunting experience might want to hunt with a double just to make the hunt a litte more challenging. Of course that guy would have to be willing to pass on some longer shots. Of course the two scenarios above are based on the hunter being able to afford the double.

The BUT for me comes when a novice DG hunter comes to me wanting to book the least expensive hunt we offer and tells me he has a brand new double or asks what double he should buy for the hunt. To me those folks have been brainwashed into thinking that the hunt will be somehow lacking without the use of a double or that they will be woefully ill equipped with a mere bolt rifle. Of course this is BS and the guy will have a great hunt even if he uses a Remington 700 with a plain Jane 3x9 scope. There is in my mind something wrong with sacrificing your hunt to pay for a rifle that quite often is not the best tool for the job at hand. After all do we not buy the rifles to hunt with?

For the average guy hunting Africa I just don't see the justification or the need for a double rifle. Ask your PH what he likes to see a client show up with. I doubt he will say a big double. Most people shoot much better with an off the shelf bolt rifle.

If you want to hunt with a double have at it if that's what you want to do but trying to say it is better even in a tight situation unless the hunter is very good with the double is just wrong. Actually I'd be much more comfortable with the Model 700 guy as he probably has shot a bolt gun all his life as opposed to the double shooter as he may or may not be even barely competent wit h his rifle.

Mark

Mark, I was with you all the way until you got to the part about the Remington 700 and plain Jane scope . . .

Mike,

I must say that was a tad over the top. Make it a push feed M70 with a 4x Burris. Actually I know a guy that has killed a pile of stuff with that combo in 375.

Mark

I have a question regarding velocity. I believe all the big doubles are in the vicinity of 2150 fps. The execption is the .500/.416 which is a 400 grain bullet around 2300.

The big .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .460 Wby etc all get to the magic 2400 fps velocity. The critisim of the .458 Win Mag has been velocity, hence the .458 Lott was developed.

Is velocity an important point in your mind?