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Whether one can kill something with a single shot rifle is completely irrelevant, and to keep bringing it up is totally, _______ , absurd. But I'm waiting for the video. Waiting for the proof that doubles are as fast as bolts. I won't be holding my breath.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Gentlemen, A few months ago I would have bought some of these "mythical man" arguments, being the well practiced good shot with whatever is his choice of firearms that kills everything he sees with one deadly shot. I own doubles, singles and bolt action rifles. I am very handy with a bolt rifle, not so handy with the double and less so with the single. I am a very good shot with all of them. However, in August I took a charge from a dying Cape Buffalo at 30 yards. My mind is now clear of all the theories. I would probably not be here if I were shooting a double or single shot. I damn near didn't make it with a bolt rifle. The charge started at 30 yards, the PH (a seasoned professional with 27 yrs. experience and with many charges under his belt)shot the Buff three times straight on hitting him in the boss, over the left eye and breaking the jaw with a .458 Lott bolt rifle. I, shooting simultaneously, shot the buff thee times in the front end boiler room from the shoulder to the neck with a .416 Rigby. The Buff survived this hail storm of bullets and hit the PH, sending him flying and breaking his rifle in half. Next he hit me and gored me in the butt and battered the shit out of me while I was holding on to both sides of his horns. He crashed to the ground with me still holding on and he sat there dying. The PH found my rifle and put a finisher under his left eye. All those shots in addition to the first shot which was on the left shoulder, thru the lungs, and broke the off side leg. Big blood trail and easy to follow. Obviously, no brain shot, but it was real time, not make believe at the rifle range. Just because you haven't had it happen to you doesn't mean it can't happen. That was my third buffalo and the others died according to the book. I will never hunt cape buffalo with anything other than a bolt rifle stuffed as full as I can get it and now know that even the PH can miss. Been there done that. BTW, I am booked with this PH for elephant in 2013, booked for Father/Son Cape Buffalo with Martin Pieters for 2012, booked for Cape Buffalo in Moz for 2013, so what happened in August won't stop me from hunting, but taught me a lesson. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Yeah, but Bell used a .275 Rigby to kill elephants. Glad you are alright, by the way. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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There are some PH's that want to get in on the action. Maybe they'll start recommending single shots! Maybe they better go to that shooting school, too.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Thanks Will. All my wounds have healed very well. No infections, no broken bones, lots of bruises. A few new scars on my face(adds character)and butt. Pretty near 100%, just in time to leave for Zambia on Oct. 4 to hunt with Andrew and AR folks. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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1,011 elephants with a series of six Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm 200 odd with the .303 The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle. He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle. and none of this nonsense that he only selectively shot unriled elephants by sneaking up with a behind the ear shot.... "Bell had earned the respect and the friendship, and finally total acceptance of the warlike Karamojang people. This was due partly to his fearlessness when dealing with a herd of bull elephants bearing down on him, relying on braining the one directly in front of him,.... Bell was also supremely fit with tremendous stamina and endurance, qualities necessary for survival, and for which the Karamojang, as primitive people, greatly admired. But mainly they stood in awe and possibly dread of his small but deadly “fire stick,” which fired, without smoke, tiny shining bullets causing instant death to the largest bull elephant, and often laid low a group of bulls in a matter of seconds....." - Harry Selby. Its not that the 7x57 is inadequate, just that many people don't have what it takes. | |||
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Happen to have a link? Thanks.
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Solves all the problems except for Will, it has two triggers. http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100125170 | |||
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Incredible experience! Can you tell us what type of bullets you and the PH used? Can you post a picture of the buff showing where the shots hit? I too shot a buff through both lungs and prefer next time,a lower shot placement like a heart shot.It's amazing how the buff took shots on the head with a 416 Rigby and did not turn. | |||
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We were both shooting Hornady solids for all shots. Nixon (PH) had the straight-on shot and was working over his head. I was 4 yds to the right of the PH with a slight angle, so I was shooting for the boiler room on the left side. We both were loaded with solids because I was looking for elephant as well. My first shot narrowly missed the heart. I am composing a hunting report now, hopefully finishing today, with pics. One of the most incredible (to me) facts, was when they cleaned his scull there was 3 inches of bone/scull plate gone over the the left eye where Nixon shot him. I could see the bull shudder at every shot, but he kept coming, amazingly tuff. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Begno: You survived a hell of a scrape all right! I guess that's why they call buffalo dangerous game, because you just NEVER KNOW. It certainly gives a single-shot user a nightmare to sweat. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Sometimes it is just plain fun, and on others it is simply terrifying, and others you come back in a feed sack! Glad you and your PH made it out alive! I guess you'll have some double rifles for sale soon, let me know!  ..........................  ................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Will made the point that certainly a single shot or a double rifle will kill stuff. I saw a show where a woman killed an elephant with a bow. Muzzleloaders and handguns do it too. That is acknowledged, but none of that stuff for me anymore. Well, maybe a single shot on leopard, and maybe a double on ele, but not Buff. However, the doubt has been created and I'm not sure I can do anything again but a bolt action. The truth of this hunt is that I had a bunch of fun (with 10-15 seconds of terror thrown in) and lived to tell about it. Mac, I haven't given any thought to selling the doubles, but I do see their role in my hunting as reduced. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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"What about a well balanced Double ?" I've got one of those too, but I prefer the slimmer profile of the single for carry over the wider one of the double. DRSS | |||
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Not to plug my Elephant book, but guys could do worse than to learn what I wrote. As I discussed in THE BOOK (!) you can't stop a buff by shooting him/her in the head unless you brain it. A buff's skull is mostly honeycombed hollows and shooting it in the head has no effect, unlike head shooting an elephant. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Having stood around and read year after year people on this forum raging back and forth on this bolt vs double thing are ignoring something rather obvious. That all of this means nothing if your shooting training and technique are not correct. How many times have you seen video one this forum, You Tube, etc. where the first thing the shooter does after the shot is drop the firearm off the shoulder and take a look. Folks, by doing that you are all slow. Your instant second shot with the double is now gone, your quick cycling bolt gun doesn't mean a thing. I would hazard a guess that there are more than just a few people on this forum with all of it's vast hard earned experience who do just that. | |||
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WC375,unless you are shooting at a stationary target or something comeing at you in a straight line it might be impossible to recover and relocate your game after the initial shot without taking the rifle down.Imagine a buff in the grass offering a difficult target to begin with and having it bolt in an unknown direction after the crack of the first shot. | |||
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I do tend to reload first and then look, and I reload a Bolt at the shoulder, however as shootaway states, if I raise the gun and can't see the game, sometimes it is best to lower it (as in drop the butt as opposed to just lower the barrels) as when you re engage, it is a fluid motion of up into the shoulder and so on, as you often practice at the range. But that is my HO. If the animals are further out, I sometimes reload at the shoulder and then use the scope to refind them. . | |||
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Qill, Please inform us how this post is not a plug for your book!  465H&H | |||
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Dude, the man wrote a couple books. As far as Im concerned, he gets to plug them! Heck I plug mine; in my signature line; but most of you guys arent interested in PDW's. Size Matters--A study of PDW's, PCC's, and SBR's http://www.onesourcetactical.c...rs.aspx#.U9NDS3ZundU | |||
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Cross, Sounds about right. The worst thing is to look before reloading and that is what some do. . | |||
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This is the best example of the ONLY reason I think its a bad idea. Bolt guns are just like attorneys, lots of guys dislike em, right up until you really need one! | |||
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 Hell! I doubt there is one in ten here who knows what PDW,PCC's, and SBR's means much less interested in them! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Well suffice to say that theres hunting and theres hunting. Just some are more dangerous than others and some have longer claws. You dont have to go to Afrika to hunt or be hunted. For the record a PDW is a Personal Defense Weapon (a new name for something smaller than a rifle but more powerful than a pistol). A PCC is a Pistol Caliber Carbine (anything from a Lever action 44-40 to a semi auto MP5), and a SBR is just a Short Barreled Rifle (under 16 inches for easier carry requires NFA approval). Size Matters--A study of PDW's, PCC's, and SBR's http://www.onesourcetactical.c...rs.aspx#.U9NDS3ZundU | |||
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Your subtle advert had passed me by - you should at least add a website and make it clear you are the author and selling copies! | |||
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It was meant to be subtle. Im not here to sell books, and its certainly not a topic thats normally discussed here (especially on this thread). http://www.onesourcetactical.com/sizematters.aspx Size Matters--A study of PDW's, PCC's, and SBR's http://www.onesourcetactical.c...rs.aspx#.U9NDS3ZundU | |||
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You are correct it isn't often discussed here but most of the guys here, at least the ones in the USA are legally armed most of the time! I for one have been legally armed for most of my life. Not just in the hunting fields, but I daily have legal close access to PDWs! On Cape buffalo though my weapons are not so concealable, however! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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And what is the point? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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http://forums.nitroexpress.com...?Cat=0&Number=188799 | |||
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What if you drop a cartridge in the mud while trying to reload your single shot? I've done this with a bolt action. The point is, though, that I get to shoot four shots with my bolt action before I have to reload. Also, you're likely to be a lot more excited in the presence of dangerous game,making it easier to drop one. There is no way anyone can shoot as accurately and rapidly for multiple shots with a single shot as you can with a bolt rifle. If you don't believe this, come up to Camp Perry next August and see how many shooters use single shots in the rapid fire championships. For that matter, the US Army settled this issue in 1892. Single shots just aren't as good as bolts and doubles if you have to shoot twice or more. Doubles are not as good as bolts if you you have to shoot three times at close range, and, frankly, are a lot worse for even one shot if you have to pick a path for your bullet through the bush. You can't rely on the PH for backup all the time. Have you ever seen a PH completely miss an elephant? I have. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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if you've got more rounds,ignore the one in the mud, Get another clean one from where ever you have them positioned for quick access. | |||
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