A man with a double rifle who can keep up the same rate of fire as a good man with a bolt rifle should be pretty handy with a well worn, slick action, dropping block single shot as well.
The mythical man who is honestly faster with a double than a man with a bolt gun should also be able to shoot a single shot as fast as the bolt user.

If it were all about speed then we would all be shooting autos.

Each type of weapon has advantages and disadvantages. Regarding a well built single shot rifle, it fires the first shot just as fast as any other type of rifle. The second shot is a lot slower than the second shot from a double and little slower than the second shot from a bolt rifle. However, no rifle carries better, nor handles better, than a well balanced single shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


What some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) did on any particular day in front of a paper tiger is a bunch different than some real life dude getting charged by an elephant.

Would that statement apply to the video of some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) named Monty Kalogeras in the HeymUSA videos posted here with his 404 bolt rifle in front of a paper buffalo on a string on any particular day?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) did on any particular day in front of a paper tiger is a bunch different than some real life dude getting charged by an elephant.

Would that statement apply to the video of some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) named Monty Kalogeras in the HeymUSA videos posted here with his 404 bolt rifle in front of a paper buffalo on a string on any particular day?

I haven't been charged by an Elephant but what I practiced down at the range
BEFORE going after buffalo and scrub bulls meant when it did happen (a charge),
then my response was exactly as I had practiced and the result was the same,
dead or turned animals.

So why wouldn't the same apply to people, like PH's who shoot a lot more than
me ?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) did on any particular day in front of a paper tiger is a bunch different than some real life dude getting charged by an elephant.

Would that statement apply to the video of some guy (one in a hundred thousand?) named Monty Kalogeras in the HeymUSA videos posted here with his 404 bolt rifle in front of a paper buffalo on a string on any particular day?

I haven't been charged by an Elephant but what I practiced down at the range
BEFORE going after buffalo and scrub bulls meant when it did happen (a charge),
then my response was exactly as I had practiced and the result was the same,
dead or turned animals.

So why wouldn't the same apply to people, like PH's who shoot a lot more than
me ?

.

500N, since you quoted my post, I guess you are posing the question to me? If so, I'm not sure what you're asking.

I was just trying to make a smart ass remark to Will's smart ass remark!

Sorry, I was also referring to Will's comment
- or more like refuting his post as I think it is wrong.

Your post just got caught up in it.

If his mark was true, then why do you practice, why do you train troops like they do ????
If his theory was correct, then the first time troops went up against the enemy instead of wooden range targets they would run away.

And so would all hunters when they faced their first charge.

.

I have driven nails with a crescent wrench, so I guess if I got the curves and angles right, I might be able to kill dangerous game with a single shot rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Sorry, I was also referring to Will's comment
- or more like refuting his post as I think it is wrong.

Your post just got caught up in it.

If his mark was true, then why do you practice, why do you train troops like they do ????
If his theory was correct, then the first time troops went up against the enemy instead of wooden range targets they would run away.

And so would all hunters when they faced their first charge.

.

It is like I said before, you guys that are married to your double rifles refuse to admit they have limitations. It's just down right embarrassing.

If an industrial engineer (a time and motion guy) ever wanders upon this forum they could give some credibility to you guys being all wet.

If you have ever watched some of the shooting competition videos from the South Africa Big Bore Shooters Assoc. (or something like that) some of those guys are pretty fast. But almost as fast isn't the same as just as fast, except on TV and in fake action movies.

So you guys that claim you are fast at reloading a double, and just as fast at three shots as a bolt, don't let me stand in your way. You Tube has been around a long time. SHOW ME.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
A suggestion, if I may.

Buy a double of your dreams and go on the best safari you can pay cash for, but be ready to sell the double when you get back if you need to. Factor in the possibility that you might take a loss on the resale of a few grand, but if you buy wisely, the gun could be worth what you paid for it or more.

Let me add a caveat. I'm not saying to borrow money or to spend more than you have, but, in making your calculations, remember that a good double is an asset that can be sold to get back your "money buffer" that we all should have.

Certainly it hurts to sell the double when you get back, but without my doing what I've suggested, I'd never have been able to take a Rigby, a Westley Richards, a couple of Cogswell and Harrisons, a Lyon & Lyon, an Army and Navy or a couple of the Searcy's I've owned to Africa.

I'm fortunate enough to now have a .450 N.E. Searcy and a Merkel 9.3x74R that I dearly love (and for now, can afford), but if it comes to paying for another safari (or a house payment or whatever) or keeping the rifle, it's a no brainer to me. Some may think it's sacrilegious, but the experience (to me, anyway) is more important than retaining the hardware.

Sounds just like what I described in the prior post:

quote:

I'm guessing the guy taking a big bore single shot to Africa has shot it a hell of a lot more, and practised with it, that the average "Joe" taking his new bolt action in a "huge" calibre he has not shot much.

How experienced with the rifle are these guys buying a DR for a single hunt, then planning to sell it off immediately afterwards?

Also if one followed the advice above ie a "short term DR", be VERY careful of what one buys, as some have bought complete crap DRs eg with badly pitted bored out over size chambers represented as original untouched fine condition etc.

Better to buy something one knows is absolutely above board.


***

BTW I still can't understand how all those 19th Century hunters survived to write books after shooting with those "dangerous" "ineffective" bore single shot rifles ....

quote:

I still can't understand how all those 19th Century hunters survived to write books after shooting with those "dangerous" "ineffective" bore single shot rifles

The few guys that wrote books about themselves occasionally shooting single shots indeed survived. Unfortunately there were many that didn't. I believe your logic, old boy, is a few tombstones short of a well-stocked Nairobi cemetery.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I still can't understand how all those 19th Century hunters survived to write books after shooting with those "dangerous" "ineffective" bore single shot rifles

The few guys that wrote books about themselves occasionally shooting single shots indeed survived. Unfortunately there were many that didn't. I believe you logic, old boy, is a few tombstones short of a well-stocked Nairobi cemetery.

Will

And the problem with that theory is plenty of old school hunters also died using Bolt Actions and Double Rifles.

And as happens to this very day, PH's get mauled or die regardless of what they have in their hands. Just look at the stories on AR re PH's in hospital.


.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
you guys that are married to your double rifles refuse to admit they have limitations. It's just down right embarrassing.

What's really embarrassing is having to explain to my wife that I am in fact married to another. My Double!! Alas, they both have limitations.

Once again I will ask, how does a bolt gun's extra capacity matter if you stand your ground and wait till the animal is say at 30 feet before shooting and then take him with a brain shot? All this talk about bolt guns being faster and more shots conjures images in my head of some "gangsta" holding the gun sideways...

Please we are talking hunting here and we will have a PH along. Presumably the PH is competent and not taking a piss with his rifle against a tree when this charge is going on, AND this isnt some novel where the PH ran off and left you to save the trackers and beautiful native girl who was picking berries on her way to grand ma's village, AND since we are talking about a somewhat specialized weapon (not everyone chooses to take a single shot to hunt DG) that again presumably the user has SOME advanced experience shooting it. So the issue isnt really how many shots or how fast; but how well its shot in the first place.

However, no rifle carries better, nor handles better, than a well balanced single shot.

Amen to that!!

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
However, no rifle carries better, nor handles better, than a well balanced single shot.

What about a well balanced Double ?


I have yet to find a Single shot that balances as well as my Short barreled Westley Richards 500 Nitro double.

Most Single shots are heavy and clunky,
even if well balanced.

.

Or a short, well balanced bolt gun.

One of the real assets of a bolt rifle is that in rough terrain they do not have to be carried with a round in the chamber - yet three or more rounds can be put into action immediately without having to fumble digging rounds out of a belt or pouch.

If starting with an empty chamber and only carryng a rifle in your hands the bolt is quickest and the difference between a single and a double is arguable. But that is what we are all good at

Looks like Edelweiss answered his own question as I see from another thread that he JUST purchased a Ruger # 1 conversion in 577 Nitro!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Looks like Edelweiss answered his own question as I see from another thread that he JUST purchased a Ruger # 1 conversion in 577 Nitro!

I bought it because after seeing it a couple months ago, I couldnt get it out of my head. The price was "good enough" to make the leap. I still "want" a heavy double rifle; but I can sleep easy now knowing that if the safari fairy knocks on my door, I'll be dressed at least somewhat appropriately for Dangerous Game UP CLOSE .

Edelweiss:

Why don't you contact your ph on the chosen hunt and discuss the use of a single shot with him. Since he is the man backing you up, perhaps it is his opinion that counts.

By the way, what about a lever action. Does anyone manufacture a lever action in the big bore calibers that take three or more rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber?

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Edelweiss:

Why don't you contact your ph on the chosen hunt and discuss the use of a single shot with him. Since he is the man backing you up, perhaps it is his opinion that counts.

By the way, what about a lever action. Does anyone manufacture a lever action in the big bore calibers that take three or more rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber?

Doug Turnbull

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Why don't you contact your ph on the chosen hunt and discuss the use of a single shot with him. Since he is the man backing you up, perhaps it is his opinion that counts.

Thats the plan. My PG hunt is scheduled for next year and Im thinking of a DG hunt for 2013/14. Whether I use the 577 Ruger or not will depend on a lot of unknowns at this time, not the least being the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It is like I said before, you guys that are married to your double rifles refuse to admit they have limitations. It's just down right embarrassing.

Will nobody ever said the double rifle do not have limitations, they most assuredly do have limitations, as does any type rifle. The limitations of the double rifle can be overcome just like the limitations of the bolt rifle or any other type rifle.

quote:

If an industrial engineer (a time and motion guy) ever wanders upon this forum they could give some credibility to you guys being all wet.

Will everyone knows the when the engineers get through engineering, the re-design “FIX” has to be done by the high school grad owner!

quote:

If you have ever watched some of the shooting competition videos from the South Africa Big Bore Shooters Assoc. (or something like that) some of those guys are pretty fast. But almost as fast isn't the same as just as fast, except on TV and in fake action movies.

So you guys that CLAIM you are fast at reloading a double, and just as fast at three shots as a bolt, don't let me stand in your way. You Tube has been around a long time. SHOW ME.

Never mind You Tube, that can be edited any way you want! Come on down to the HOOT&SHOOT and see it first hand, and bring you big bore bolt rifle and make us look like you think we do!
when you find yourself in a hole stop digging!............................

.......................

Mac,

I thought Mr. Jines won the event I attended with a Blaser bolt gun. Maybe it is the best.

What am I missing? Ive never been to Afrika; but Ive never seen a picture of any DG animal with any horn, claw, teeth, or hove that was a threat at 50 yards. Ive seen them charge; but never from a football field away.

You guys are arguing this like its Oswald and the Book Repository. Sweet Baby Jesus, they arent DANGEROUS unless theyre close. Ive been a Soldier and a Cop for longer than some of you have been alive. I carried a bolt action rifle on the job and shot distances that "time to target" matters, and those threats were only dangerous because of what they did or might do. Ive faced a guy with a knife, and even then if Id shot him beyond 21 feet, there would have been hell to pay-because outside that distance he WASN'T a threat.

A charging _______ inside 30 yards IS a threat. Thats where a Double Rifle comes into play, because it CAN get off two shots in the time it takes the charging ______ to reach you.

I think Im pretty fast with a reload on a NO.1; but NOT that fast and thats why you have to stand facing the charge and wait for the kill shot. If you think you can shoot, work the bolt shoot, and work the bolt again and shoot THREE times in the time it takes ______ to charge 30 yards, then by all means use a bolt and say you hunted dangerous game. Of course you have to ask why the first or second or third shot didnt stop it. Outside of thirty yards they aint dangerous unless theyre carrying AKs and nobody told me.

So can we please stop. Judas, I posted a simple question and three pages later we're still going at it. I value the combined knowledge of you guys and truly hope you will continue to help me with other questions; but this thread has just gotten ridicules.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Mac,

I thought Mr. Jines won the event I attended with a Blaser bolt gun. Maybe it is the best.

Mike the last one I attended mike was shooting a 500NE K-gun, but I agree that the Blaser straight pull Blaser is probably a lot faster than the regular turn bolt rifle.

The last one I attended I took third place out of 20 shooters, with a double rifle with four shots in four seconds flat all hits. That was with even forgetting to disengage a damn auto safety for shot no 3 after the reload.

Gentlemen fast is not all there is to this thing! No matter how fast you work the rifle, if the shots are missed they don't count, on paper or on a live animal. On paper you loose the match, and on an animal you may loose a lot more, but paper, or hunting small game with your double rifle or any other type rifle is where you hone that skill. It is not, after all,only how fast you shoot unless you hit what you are shooting at.

The fire in those timed shoots is four rounds on a six inch round target at 25 yds, starting with the double rifle loaded with two rounds, and the bolt rifle loaded with four rounds with one already in the chamber. Individual time starts when he fires the first shot , and ends when the fourth shot is fired. Then the target is scored for hits, and to best posible score is 40 points if all four hit the 2" ten ring, and any shot that misses the six inch black is not scored! I place third with a score of 36 of a posible 40 points in four seconds flat, and both people who beat me were shooting doubles! I I hadn't forgot the rifle I was shooting had an auto safety, and tried to fore shot number three after the re-load with the safety on, I could possibly shaved another second off that time.

Nobody is saying that everyone who shoots a double rifle is going to be faster than everyone shooting any bolt rifle, but to say it is a myth that someone that is skilled can work a double just as fast, and even faster than some skilled folks with a bolt rifle for four accurate shots is simply silly.

It is not a myth, and has been done on many occasions

Edelweiss,

Wait until February when nobody has hunted in Africa for a couple of months, everybody really becomes surly.

You need to ask which bullets to use that will start another three page thread.

Anyway it is mostly in good fun and I hope you enjoy your 577. We are anxious to hear what full house loads are like.

BTW the only thing we missed on this thread was somebody discovering that Bell killed an elephant with a single shot 7 by 57.

Edelweiss,
I posted the same question a couple of years back, with much the same response and emotionality. Will's views on this are entirely consistent. (Hi Will.) I haven't been back to Africa since that time and may not get to go again. But, there's a No 1 in 450/400 that I will take for Buffalo if I return. I don't have an interest in other dangerous game, for a variety of reasons. My experience in Africa is very limited compared to most here (1 hunt, took a Buffalo). It seems to me though that there is an underlying assumption that somehow the choice of firearm should award the hunter complete, unvarying protection in all circumstances. I don't look at it that way. Taking something there with a bolt gun is completely fine, but just not very interesting to me. A double rifle would be great however I'd rather spend the extra money on another hunt. I think the difference in protection afforded the hunter by these different guns is not too significant, if the hunter is practiced and competent. Could a single shot result in one's demise? Of course. It could go badly. Although I have no particular wish to check out early, I'd rather that than die in a nursing home. But honestly, I don't think it's all that harrowing a choice. There's a bigger chance of being run over on the way to the airport. There seems to be a need to turn these things into great dramas. Speaking for myself only.

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
What am I missing? Ive never been to Afrika; but Ive never seen a picture of any DG animal with any horn, claw, teeth, or hove that was a threat at 50 yards. Ive seen them charge; but never from a football field away.

You guys are arguing this like its Oswald and the Book Repository. Sweet Baby Jesus, they arent DANGEROUS unless theyre close. Ive been a Soldier and a Cop for longer than some of you have been alive. I carried a bolt action rifle on the job and shot distances that "time to target" matters, and those threats were only dangerous because of what they did or might do. Ive faced a guy with a knife, and even then if Id shot him beyond 21 feet, there would have been hell to pay-because outside that distance he WASN'T a threat.

A charging _______ inside 30 yards IS a threat. Thats where a Double Rifle comes into play, because it CAN get off two shots in the time it takes the charging ______ to reach you.

I think Im pretty fast with a reload on a NO.1; but NOT that fast and thats why you have to stand facing the charge and wait for the kill shot. If you think you can shoot, work the bolt shoot, and work the bolt again and shoot THREE times in the time it takes ______ to charge 30 yards, then by all means use a bolt and say you hunted dangerous game. Of course you have to ask why the first or second or third shot didnt stop it. Outside of thirty yards they aint dangerous unless theyre carrying AKs and nobody told me.

So can we please stop. Judas, I posted a simple question and three pages later we're still going at it. I value the combined knowledge of you guys and truly hope you will continue to help me with other questions; but this thread has just gotten ridicules.

I didn't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this was mentioned and disgarded/seconded/ballyhood

what about renting a nice double from the outfitter or PH? don't they often have loaner guns? I think a Ruger No. 1 isn't any worse than bow hunting, not that I would personally do either for dangerous game. My reason for not wanting to use a single shot for DG is probably an odd one, but even though I know 98% of the time things go perfectly the mystique of dangerous game for me is just that, they're dangerous. In my own mind if I were going after a buffalo with a single shot I've already decided that they aren't dangerous enough to warrant the extra surety of a bolt actions follow up capabilities, and/or I've decided I don't mind if I'm not the one that does the final shot (i.e. the ph has to handle the follow up or killing shot).

The other way to see it though is it could add to the excitement I guess.

I would think it cool though to use the no. 1 and then after you're back have an engraver engraving the animals you took with it on the sides, that would be very sweet.

whatever you choose, it comes down to what you're enjoy most.

Red

quote:

Gentlemen fast is not all there is to this thing! No matter how fast you work the rifle, if the shots are missed they don't count, on paper or on a live animal.

Oh brother, Mac. Here comes the cop-out.

Doubles may be slow to reload but they are a lot easier to shoot straight, and just about guarantee hitting a buff, or what?

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
What am I missing? A charging _______ inside 30 yards IS a threat. Thats where a Double Rifle comes into play, because it CAN get off two shots in the time it takes the charging ______ to reach you.

I think Im pretty fast with a reload on a NO.1; but NOT that fast and thats why you have to stand facing the charge and wait for the kill shot. If you think you can shoot, work the bolt shoot, and work the bolt again and shoot THREE times in the time it takes ______ to charge 30 yards, then by all means use a bolt and say you hunted dangerous game. Of course you have to ask why the first or second or third shot didnt stop it. Outside of thirty yards they aint dangerous unless theyre carrying AKs and nobody told me.

So can we please stop. Judas, I posted a simple question and three pages later we're still going at it. I value the combined knowledge of you guys and truly hope you will continue to help me with other questions; but this thread has just gotten ridicules.

EDELWEISS, I think you are misunderstanding one thing. A fast re-load is not just to save your but in a charge though that IS one consideration! what if the buff is aiming at someone else in your party? Most do not charge after being shot, but try their best to get away, and if he does and you can't find him you still pay! In the case of Cape Buffalo the fast reload is certainly a plus because a cape buffalo rarely goes down to the first shot, an if that shot is off just a little he can travel some distance before going down, so it is prudant to get as many bullets in him till he is down or out of sight. The fact is a good man with either a bolt of double can get off four shots in a very short period of time, be it to stop his escape, or to stop him in his tracks before he hurts someone in your party, not just you as the shooter!

You are correct in that you didn't ask the question about stopping a charge, but that or preventing an escape is a by-product of the type of rifle being used, and your skill with that rifle. Part of that skill is a fast re-load, and hitting what you shoot at.

Simply because you opened this thread doesn't mean that others are not interested in all the ramafications of the type rifle used, and the skill required for it's use!

As far as answering you question without any discussion other than the simple answer, I have shot sever very large animals with a Ruger No1 rifle, and like you i can re-load one pretty quickly. so if that is all you wanted to know, my simple answer is Do it! If that floats your canoe, paddle on down stream!

....................................

Now I'm through with this thread! BYE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
Although I have no particular wish to check out early, I'd rather that than die in a nursing home. [QUOTE]

Jeffery,

If you get get whacked or even about stepped on, I guaratee you that you'll change your mind!

Yup, probably so.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
Although I have no particular wish to check out early, I'd rather that than die in a nursing home. [QUOTE]

Jeffery,

If you get get whacked or even about stepped on, I guaratee you that you'll change your mind!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Gentlemen fast is not all there is to this thing! No matter how fast you work the rifle, if the shots are missed they don't count, on paper or on a live animal.

Oh brother, Mac. Here comes the cop-out.

Doubles may be slow to reload but they are a lot easier to shoot straight, and just about guarantee hitting a buff, or what?

I get your straw man quest, but I ain't bitten!

Doubles are not slow it is people who are slow, and it matters not what you are shooting or how fast, if you don't hit what you shoot at! Get in a hurry under pressure and see how well you do! That is a very good practice training to advance your skill with your chosen firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Jabalihunter the man firing both rifles is Monty Kalogeras who owns the SAFARI shooting School. At the time that film was made Monty was deadly with his 404, but I doubt he had fired more than a box of 470NE from a double rifle in his life at that time! Take a proficient double rifle shooter to shoot against him and I think you wouldn’t be so smug!

No smugness on my part! Thanks for the background info though.

Yes a proficient DR shooter can be smooth and fast... But to be really fast with a double requires a good loader and a matched pair!

Re this fast issue, at 30 yards or less, you barely have time to shoot ONE round accurately.

And I prefer, and have put that one shot where I wanted, right through the brain and the animal still got to 8 yards from my feet. The other time hit the neck and turned the animal.


Further out, Double or Bolt, who cares, if you can't stop it in 2 shots I doubt you'll have time for any more anyway.

.

If you don't need more than 2 shots, you probably don't need more than one.

Why does anyone need more than one anyway?

If you can't hit it with one then you can't hit it with two, or three or four or five or .....

Can someone cite a list of verifiable incidents in the past 10 years in which a well-practiced client shooting a Ruger No. 1 in an appropriate caliber with an appropriate bullet and hunting with a competent PH was injured or killed, or his PH or a tracker injured or killed while hunting DG?
I'm just curious. I must have missed the posts, or Kathi's terse, but much-appreciated links to various news reports in the African press. Will says the Nairobi cemetery is full of dead single-shot users, so there must have been a number of serious incidents in recent years.
Once this list is compiled, then let's list the same incidents in the past 10 years in Africa involving clients with double rifles and bolt rifles in appropriate calibers with appropriate bullets.
This will all be very enlightening when we have this VERIFIABLE data base assembled, don't you think?
What a service it will be to all of us who love Africa and African hunting.

Will, after your last post, I don't think you are a pompeous ass[like I did before]. My experience is less than yours[poor ole farm boy, from the midwest]. I think you just like to irk it on, for the fun of it!


Bottom line, take what you want! It's your safari. My son and I used Ruger No. 1s, and got along great. 3 of the 4 were basically 1 shot kills,[excluding paying the insurance ].

Will I do it again? Probably not. I don't make enough money, to do it again. But I count myself fortunate to have done it twice, with my son, and its ALL GOOD! Would I take a single shot again? In a heart beat.


Mad Dog

Interesting thread on NE re someone who went to Africa with a 450/400 Ruger No 1.

Shot a whole range of game including Elephant.

.