375 H&H.....Jack of all trades and master of none????? so says Recono. Do you agree??

From what I have read about the original design of this caliber, it is perhaps the most specifically designed caliber of all.

It would seem to me that of the bigger calibers it is the 416s that are master of nothing. There recoil takes them into a class where compromises have to be made, so what do they offer over the bigger 45s. In either case you are compromised by recoil.

Surely the immense success of the 375 and the failure of the various 40s, such as the 416 Rigby, 404 and 425 Westley Richards does say something. 416 Remingtons do not exactly appear to be thick on the ground

On the smaller side, the 30/06 and 338 operate at similar velocity levels to the 375, but history does show that most people with some practice can go up to 375 recoil, but not much over it if the rifle is to be used a lot and from any type of improvised field rest.

History also shows us that the 30/06 type trajectory is more than ample for nearly all shooting conditions. The 375 simply offers that trajectory with a bullet size limited by recoil considerations.

Mike

It's a damn fine eland round. For other animals I can come up with something more optimal.

Whew, Mike! - don't you feel better already just talking about rifles and Africa?

It is the definitive rifle for the visiting sportsman..it may or may not be the perfect rifle for a PH. One of it's many virtues is sufficient power without extreme recoil which most people can handle with a modest amount of effort and experience...the same cannot be said for larger calibers.

Check the record....Finn Aggard and a long, long list of others have said this over the past 40 years and it continues to be true today. Power (even excess power) is nice but accuracy is final and that describes the .375 wheter it is the venerable .375 H&H or my more modern 9.53 Lazzeroni HellCat.

Yes.
It is a great caliber for brown bear in the states and is also a great caliber for lion in Africa. And yet there are other and possibly better choices for each.
While it has far outdistanced the 40cals, they are still a better round for truly dangerous game, and anyone committed to hunting such game with them should take the time to learn how to shoot them effectively.
The trajectory of the 375, is as you said, adequate. For general small game shooting, many of us prefer a flatter shooting round, with less recoil. We prefer more velocity to cause more shock, disrupt more tissue. If X is good then Y is better!

Give me a .416 over a .375 any day. On the other end of the scale (non-dangerous game), a .338 does anything that a .375 does. HOWEVER - for a one rifle solution in Africa, a .375 is difficult to beat the the "average" guy.

I guess I just pissed most everyone off.

Darn, and I thought that I just got the perfect rifle for everything (my first 375 H&H)!

But then, I guess I'm pretty much jack of all, master of none myself.

Maybe I did get the right rifle?...

Bill

Gee Mike! I was all set, don't start something.

I am all set around here anyway with one of the factions because I have a .375 H&H "improved" too.

It is an outstanding round for the practicle hunter, ie master one or two rounds/rifles, and be set for everything. It also has a long history, and a great deal of nostalgia related to its use, and the rifles built for it.

I am not practicle, and not paticularly nostalgic. If I had one, I'm sure I'd use it for 95% of my hunting, and be content. I doubt I will ever by one, and if I get a magnum length action, I'd likely build something bigger.

Your mention in another post about the 350 rigby has me intrigued, I'm considering re-chambering my 35 whelen ackley, provided it would clean up, anybody have a dimensioned drawing of a 350 Rigby case?

Paul,

I will dig out my Cartridges of the World and put upthe 350 Rigby numbers.

Brass is Bertram and I guess Kynoch etc. American Hunting Rifles are listing it as one of their chamberings.

It just seems such a natural for someone with a 416 Rigby in CZ to get a CZ 375 and rebarrel.

Back to 375 H&H.

Most people who elimate the 375 doit either on the small game end orthe very big game.

I wonder if these days that anyone would really shoot enough real big animals for a 416 to really show up over a 375.

On small animals I have used the 270, 308, 300 Win and 375 H&H on roos and pigs more than any other calibers.

If measured over the years the 375 has actually done the best.

Uusally the others when they have problems is bullets being too hard.

But I guess the 375 with round nose bullets works OKno matter what Hornady etc down with their bullets over the years.

The only area where the 375 has come up short is when compared to the 270 in bench rest rifles being used in the field. In a 13 pound gun with 2 ounce Jewell a 270 is about as big as you can go and just let the rifle balance on one sandbag on its own.

But once the rifle takes on a sporting rifle configuration, I have not been handicapped by the 375.

By the way, I have never seen anyone use much bigger than the 375 when both accuracy and high volume shooting are combined.

Mike

Now this is much better!

I'd have to agreee about the .375 being an all around chambering. YOu can swat the small stuff and the big stuff too!

I wouldn't agree about the failure of the .416. I feel that the .416 by virture of it's bullet design gives very good penetration! It is leaps and bounds ahead of the .458 bullet!

I have no experience with the 404 Jeffery or the 425 WR. I do know that Ray Atkinson prizes his 404 almost as much as he does "Sweet Thang". I'm sure the .423 bullet out of that 404 Jeffery can get the need attention what you hit with it!

As for me, I would have already purchased a CZ550 in .416 Rigby, but I waiting to try someone's first to see if the recoil is an issue with me.

When it comes down to it, you really need to take what you are comfortable shooting to Africa. Discounting Dangerous Game, what you use to swat deer and elk in the states and Roo in Australia should kill all the plains game you can afford!

I'll be taking the .375 as one of my rifles next trip!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01-18-2002).]

Mike,

If clymers #'s can be trusted, the 35 whelen AI is .460" at the body/shoulder line, the 350 rigby is .4512", but, the body is longer, and where the ackley is .460", the rigby is .461"

If the case is just a beltless H&H, I'm classless enough to turn belts off and save the premium for properly stamped cases.

I'd debated the 358 Norma re-chamber, but I think a 350 Rigby is calling, much better fit to the rifle when I achieve its final configuration.

350 Rigby Magnum from COTW #9:

Bullet .358
Neck .380
Shoulder .443
Base .519
Rim .525
Case 2.75
Cartridge 3.60

Other calibers are for gun nuts or stay at homes. The Queen of Calibers is the mistress of all traveling hunters, as differentiated from the gun cranks. Someday I hope to grow out of gun crankieness and become a hunter. When I do, I will likely sell everything but a matched pair of .375's. There may be better calibers for giant game and better calibers for little game. There is nothing better for middle game and nothing else can match her for all game. All kneel!

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

Sarge

Paul,

You can see from Wachtel'spost that it is just slighly bigger than the H&H across the base.

I would guess that H&Hs with the belt removed would be about like using 404 Jeffrey cases in the Rem Ultra chambers.

Bertram brass being soft isnot really an isue for 585 Nyati since your headwil fall off and roll along the ground before the brass gives out, but that would apply to the 350 Rigby.

Actually the few thou undersize on the H&H brass would not be a problem because the brass is just so much thicker on that part of the case just in front of the solid head.

I guess the trick would be to use H&H cases and have a few head stamped 350 Rigby cases (Kynoch would be ideal) for when you feel like putting on the tweed cab and jacket.

Mike

/

There's a good read on the African Hunter website from, I believe, a 1999 issue, on the .375H&H. Well done piece. As far as citicism for the round goes, I wish I had $5.oo(US of course) for every head of game taken with all of those inadequate masters of none over the last 50 or more years(don't want to be too greedy). Great round, always has been, always will be!

Paul,

An interesting dimension for the 350 Rigby is the 2.75"case lenght.

35 bullets such as 250 Hornady when seated to the cannelure produce an OAL greater than 3.6" when seated in a 2.85 case. Kind of like the 338 Ultra being 2.75" instead of the 2.85 of the 300 and 375 Ultras.

And don't forget you can get 310 grain Woodleighs

By the way, they shot extremely well from the 3 358STA barrels I tried. All with .357" groove and 1 in 14 twist.

Mike

Mike 375,

Let's see, I personally know of a buffalo, eland, 2 zebra, blue wildebeest, waterbuck and kudu that seem to think the 375 H&H is a pretty good choice. In August, I'll be convincing some other African animals of the 375's overall ability. Will relate those testimonials this coming September.

Regards,

Terry

ALF is my man! I have shot everything from whitetail deer to Hippo with a 375 H&H, and I have never felt a need for a 400 in a bolt rifle. That area is covered for me by my doubles. The old 1912 round is fine by me, and is not, IMO, improved by the "Johny-come-lately" 375 diameter rounds of today!

This isn't a map for anyone but me, and for me it is a well worn map! If I had nothing else, I would be happy, and would hunt anything on Earth without getting too nervous!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Let's see. Alf, Saeed, Ovis, etc. use it.

Saeed has said, at almost no time would a 416 of been a benefit, over the 375. However, he's only shot 80+ buffalo, so what does he know:lol:>?

More bullets, more buffalo, and the best all around cartridge ever??

Forgotten in this discussion is the premium you have to pay for a 416 or bigger, rifle, cartridges, over the 375.

VALUE. The 375 H&H is simply the best VALUE big bore, adequate for anything, ever...

gs

How pleasing to visit a shrine to the 375 H&H. God bless it, and all those who fire it.
P.

I think the "jack-of-all-trades, master-of- none" moniker can be attached to a number of excellent and versatile cartridges besides the .375 H&H, including the .30-06, .338 Win. etc.

Now when you get down to the nut cuttin', these jack-of-all-trades cartridges can and do take in a lot of hunting. In a practical sense they are the true shining stars of the hunting world, even though they lack the "star-power" and situation-specific usefulness under extreme and demanding cicumstances compared to cartridges like the .458 Lott, .500 NE, or on the flip side, something like the .300 Ultra Mag.

All of that aside, I love the .375 H&H for the very reason that it is THE true jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none standard cartridge of the world. So many people, especially here in the USA, wax exstatic over the versatility of the .30-06, yet the .375 H&H will do everything that the .30-06 will do and so very much more; all the while remaining a highly shootable and widely-available cartridge that nearly everyone can master with a little work and committment.

I've always felt well-armed and never under or over-gunned when I've carried a .375 H&H. Just about everything I shot with has gone down in a very decisive manner, and those animals that ran off after the shot seldom went very far. The one exception being an elk that ran for 200 yards or so with his lungs shot to pieces.

I think the .375 H&H must be good for at least 95% of all hunting world-wide, which really isn't all that bad for an old has-been, master-of-none cartridge with an archaic belt!

AD

I think that moniker fits the 375 H&H as that is exactly what it is...but I wouldn't be without one..

It is not as good as the 416, 404 on Buffalo, Elephant and Lion and thats for sure. It isn't as good as the 338 or 300 for plainsgame, but it sure will work on both....

I do believe that the 416 Rem is a better all around caliber for everything, if one is limited to one gun in Africa...A 300 or 350 gr. 416 really cooks in the velocity dept and the 400 and 450 gr. bullets sure are good on the big stuff..

I consider all the above as plain simple fact but I will never sell my 375 H&H, by Holland and Holland, its an old beat up war horse being restored as we speak, and one of my favorite rifles...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Every time I hear or read somebody saying that the .375 H&H isn't really enough gun for the big stuff, I imagine thousands of elephant, rhino, lion, and buffalo, all over Africa and the rest of the world, suddenly springing back to life and saying, "Damn! I can't be dead! I was shot by too small a rifle!"

Besides, my .375 H&H (a Remington 700 Classic -- 1996 model -- with a 4X Leupold scope in Leupold QR mounts) is sometimes my most accurate rifle. For example, my last trip to the shooting range was Thursday, 1-17-02. I shot 5 rifles at that trip: a 6mm Rem., a .260, a .270, a 30-06, and the .375 H&H. The .375 H&H gave me the best group of the day -- 0.65 inch at 100 yards with 270 gr. Speer boattails ahead of 82.5 gr. of H4350, Winchester brass, WLR primer, 3.66 inch overall length. My best group that day with the 6mm was 0.71, with the .260 it was 1.57, with the .270 it was 1.36, and with the 30-06 it was 1.79

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 01-19-2002).]

Hey ovis,

Here's a link to the article on the .375 H&H that you referred to:

http://www.african-hunter.com/site/classcart/375hhmag_01.htm

And here's another about using the .375 H&H on elephants:

http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/375onelephant_01.htm

Cheers,

Alan

------------------
Internet Editor, African Hunter Magazine Online
eEditor@african-hunter.com
http://www.african-hunter.com/site/index.htm

~Risk has a tendency to pack up and leave town when certainty arrives

[This message has been edited by Alan Bunn (edited 01-19-2002).]

LE270,
Thats old and tired print, its been said a million times, but the facts are that a 375 is not a "stopping round" and 99% of the Big Game PH's will tell you that...I personally wouldn't choose a 375 H&H to stop a charge or it wouldn't be my first choice would be a better statement...It might have to do someday but stuff happens...It simply does not knock a big enough hole for me...The 404 and 416's are head and shoulders better for dangerous game any way you cut it so why would you want to handicap yourself, given a choice....Granted if the first shot is right it will kill about anything on this earth, but so will a 30-06...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Hey Alan,

Both articles are good reads...........this is a good thread, too, guys!

THE 375H@HIS MORE THAN ADEQUATE FOR MOST AFRICAN GAME.I'VE USED IT ON JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING,FROM WHITETAIL AND WOODCHUCKS TO LION AND HIPPO.AFTER ELEVEN AFRICAN HUNTS IT'S STILL THE FIRST RIFLE I REACH FOR WHEN PACKING.ALTHOUGH I'VE TAKEN SEVERAL BUFFALO AND AN ELLEPHANT WITH LARGER CALS.,I WOULD NOT HESITATE USING THE 375 ON BUFF.IT CERTAINLY ISN'T A STOPPER BUT WITH A GOOD BULLET IT'S A GRAND BUSH ROUND.GIVE ME SOME 300GR SWIFTS AND SOME OF THE OLD HORNADY SOLIDS AND TURN ME LOOSE.IT IS A GREAT OLD ROUND THAT STILL STANDS WELL TODAY.IT HAS NEVER FAILED ME.
I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT WHEN I PASS ON THEY SHOULD BURY ME WITH MY FAVORITE 375. THEY SHOULD ALSO ADD A SUPPLY OF MY HANDLOADS, SWIFT SOFTS AND OLD HORNADY SOLIDS.AFTER THAT GIVE ME TWO WEEKS AND I'LL BE RUNNING HELL.
RICHARD
LET US PREY!

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rlda07052

Some quotes...

#1) "I know, from using the rifle myself, that the .375 H&H can safely be taken against any animal anywhere in Africa".....John "Pondoro: Taylor

#2) "...still remains the one outstanding choice for a hunter who wants a rifle that works well on everything from little gazelles to five-ton elephants. My .375 H&H has done exactly that, in addition to having given quite satisfactory results on the 48 buffalo taken with it".....Finn Aagaard

#3) "I think it is arguably the fiest all-around big game cartridge ever designed. If I could have but one rifle for all African hunitng, I would without any hesitation choose a .375 H&H." ....Finn Aagaard again.

I won't post any quotes from Boddington or
Capstick as we would get off on another tangent. You guys give up yet?

I am going to side with Ray on this issue, hard as it is.
IF I wanted to handicap myself and take most of the fun out of my safari I suppose it would be the round I'd take, except mine would be the 375Wby!
But, I'm not into one rifle safaris, and I doubt the vast majority of others are either. So, jack of all trades, etc means nothing to me. When I'm hunting buffalo I want a buffalo rifle and when I'm hunting lesser kudu I want a rifle suited perfectly for that as well. The 375 doesn't fit those roles for me.

John,

Lets us say I am heading to Africa to shoot one buffalo and some plains animals....zebra, wildebeest and similar and an eland.

So on my first trip I take a pair of 375s.

What sort of differences would you expect there to be if I took a 300 Mag and 450 Mag instead.

Mike

DB Bill,
Since your quoting Finn Aagard, let it be known that Finn, shortly before his untimely death, allowed the 416 Remington might just be a better alternative to the all around rifle, than his beloved 375 H&H, just for the record, thats in print in an article he did on the 416 Remington in his book....

I concurr that the 416 is a better alternative as it will do anything the 375 can do and a whole lot more, if one can take recoil out of the equasion, don't you agree. A 300 or 350 gr. 416 at 2900 plus makes a fair to midland plainsgame round and a 400 gr.is a killer of all big game....

Again I repeat, I will always own and shoot a 375 H&H, but I do believe just plain common since tells us the 416 Remington is now the king...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The .416 anything may be a better all-round cartridge . . . for Africa! However, there are other places in the world to hunt and most of them don't have any animals that justify the use of a .416. They do, on the other hand, have animals big enough to justify a .375. Hence, I still maintain that the .375 is the World Rifle and nothing else really qualifies for that title.

Hmpf!

Sarge

The "immense success" of the .375 H&H is probably most associated with the early introduction of the Mod 70 chambered for it. It's balistic attributes, which were significant at the time, certainly helped, but without the Mod 70, a cheap, mass produced rifle, the .375 may have gone down the same path as the other British rounds of the time. I always have one.

I wouldn't care to think of what might happen if they turned you loose in Africa!
Seriously, the pair of 375s will get you all of your game, hell any reasonable combo will do that. For me, it always comes down to what is "ideal" for this or that type hunting. And the 375 is "ideal" for very little of it. When I'm after a buffalo, which is always #1 on the list, I don't want any compromise cartridge chambering. I want MY ULTIMATE buffalo stomper, my 450 Dakota. When I have a springbok in my sights at 300+ yards I don't want some rainbow trajectory 375, I want the stretched string trajectory of my 300Wby.
For me, they work. I am totally familiar with them. I like them, I have confidence in them. And most importantly, I know how to shoot them.

Ray,

From your post:

"I concurr that the 416 is a better alternative as it will do anything the 375 can do and a whole lot more, if one can take recoil out of the equasion, don't you agree"

A 375, 416 Remington and 460 Wby all have similar velocities for bullets of the same sectional density.

So "on paper" the big 45s are the way to go.

But you can't take recoil of the equation.

A copy of an email I just received from Sierra as to will they make 416 projectiles.

Mike, that has been a caliber that I suggest each year that we make, but they have studied the market and decided that it was just to small a market to try doing it. Sorry.

Carroll Pilant

Looks like no one buying the 416 Story.

Mike

John,

What would happen if either your 300 or 450 went on the blink.

Mike

Great thread.
Either a 375 or a 416 will do for me. As with two beloved children, how could I sacrifice one or the other? You cannot take either my daughter or my son away from me. Their personalities are a bit different, but both are precious.

------------------
Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

Mike,
If the 450 were to go out of service, guide permitting I would take the buff with my 300Wby. I have that much confidence in both the cartridge and my abilities to use it. If the 300 went out, I'd borrow a rifle or just make do best I could with the cannon. It's trajectory isn't much different out to 200yds than the 375 with 300grs so it shouldn't be a problem.

John,

As a keen gun owner and one who also has been down the Echols road, surely having to use the PHs junk box 375 would not be an ideal outcome for you.

In other words in your case and certainly mine, the gun is far more than a means to an end.

In my case if I go to Africa with a pair of 375s, I will do as many have before me over the last 90 years, that is, have success.

If one of my rifles goes on the blink, I am still in fine shape and the trip remains unchanged.

Also, I could have one 375 zeroed for 300 grainers and the other with 250 grain premium bullets at close to 3000 with Reloader 15.

The enjoyment of your trip is very much dependent on not having a rifle go out of action, especially the 300.

Mike