Yes of course it's not guaranteed but that does not make it ethical. Shooting a bullet up into the air and hoping it hits something is also not guaranteed! In my mind there is very little difference between meat in a tree and lucerne at a waterhole. Bottom line it's an ethical decision and each hunter has to make his own decision and live with it. Because leopard are nocturnal and very hard to hunt, baiting has become an expedience. As Guy said, I suppose it's better to have controlled hunting of any kind to preserve the habitat, than the alternative (cattle and goats). Also I will say that hounds are not really practical in broken or thick areas, unless the client is an olympic athlete.

The pricing difference is not really relevant to the ethical angle. But there is nothing more expensive than booking 2 or 3 bait hunts to get a leopard.

I have no "dog" in this fight. I don't represent anyone who sells hound hunts. I don't even know anyone who does it currently. I know a guy who used to do it in Botswana, but the leopard quota on private land has been cut to almost nothing there. In fact I don't really sell hunts at all these days, if I go it's with prior clients who have become friends. High end sporting long guns is my main endeavor. Once in a while I will get an unadvertised hunt offer from an operator I have used in the past and I will forward that to my customer list. In Zim in particular, I used to work with HHK until they went wobbly about 6 years ago. Prior to that I worked with a guy in Zim who went to the dark side. At the moment I know two other guys in Zim who are both straight arrows (Terry Fenn and Scott Guthrie) but they are both freelancers so they don't have a fixed area or price list, however not being tied to an area makes them a good resource for people who are looking for a particular hunt and don't know enough to pick the right area.

Bottom line I rest my case.

I think “ethics” should be left to the individual, and the what is allowed in that location.

When in Rome......

I have a friend that was on a Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. Hunting was very slow and PH decided to use hounds. This was my friends first Safari and he did not know the difference. Many of you know this PH but he has passed away so I will not mention any names. I will say that this was not that long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
I have a friend that was on a Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. Hunting was very slow and PH decided to use hounds. This was my friends first Safari and he did not know the difference. Many of you know this PH but he has passed away so I will not mention any names. I will say that this was not that long ago.

That's one way of getting your buff. Sounds like a man with a plan.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
I have a friend that was on a Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. Hunting was very slow and PH decided to use hounds. This was my friends first Safari and he did not know the difference. Many of you know this PH but he has passed away so I will not mention any names. I will say that this was not that long ago.

That's one way of getting your buff. Sounds like a man with a plan.

That's nothing; I got my first buffalo by baiting with a live goat.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
I have a friend that was on a Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. Hunting was very slow and PH decided to use hounds. This was my friends first Safari and he did not know the difference. Many of you know this PH but he has passed away so I will not mention any names. I will say that this was not that long ago.

That's one way of getting your buff. Sounds like a man with a plan.

That's nothing; I got my first buffalo by baiting with a live goat.

Seriously funny

I would guess 90% or better that are against hunting with hounds be it leopard or any other game have never done it. Hound hunting has got to be one of the purest and oldest forms of hunting in the world. As far as it being like shooting fish in a barell that couldn’t be any future from the truth. You have to be in good to great shape to follow the dogs mile after mile. Alot of times the dogs will either bay or tree there quarry then they will run some more before coming to bay or tree. Cats are especially bad about jumping from trees when a human presence is noticed. Someone mentioned that hunting with hounds will scare other game animals and make them relocate. That’s just more Bull S*** and that line is really prevalent here in the United States from all the whitetail hunters. I see deer all the time when I’m coonhunting bedded and having dogs treed 15-20 yards from them. Too each his own as long as its legal I’m not going to tell anyone else how to g about there hunting.

quote:

I would guess 90% or better that are against hunting with hounds be it leopard or any other game have never done it.

No one mentioned any other game and it would seem we are all for tradition and enjoy working dogs.

I suspect the first use of dogs in Africa were to help eradicate problem cats in livestock regions and have no problem with that also.

Just some of us would rather not see or hear dogs in pristine big game country and prefer the traditional methods of track or baiting.

Fairgame I respect your position and you are on my list of operators I would like to hunt with. I would say hunting with dogs in Africa’s wild lands predates blind hunting by a large margin. This is my opinion and you have stated yours. This is what makes this site the best of its kind. The ability to have a conversation and debate in a respectful manner. You are a man I will hopefully be able to have a hunt with in the not too distant future.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny reb:
Fairgame I respect your position and you are on my list of operators I would like to hunt with. I would say hunting with dogs in Africa’s wild lands predates blind hunting by a large margin. This is my opinion and you have stated yours. This is what makes this site the best of its kind. The ability to have a conversation and debate in a respectful manner. You are a man I will hopefully be able to have a hunt with in the not too distant future.

Absolutely agree with you there and AR is a formidable site that covers every aspect of hunting.

Agreed dogs were used for hunting but in central and southern Africa this was more tribal and bears little resemblance to modern day safaris.

Saying that the early Egyptians pursued Lions with hound and chariot so you could be right.

Just keep it ethical and legal. How/what you hunt is your business. A good clean shot is paramount no matter how one gets to that point. Shoot often, take the time to make it count.
Have fun.

A high percentage of hound hunts, likely tracking hunts for any of the big cats very likely end up in a charge, they will only push so far then the hunter becomes the hunted..

I call that fair chase any way you cut it..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A high percentage of hound hunts, likely tracking hunts for any of the big cats very likely end up in a charge, they will only push so far then the hunter becomes the hunted..

I call that fair chase any way you cut it..

It is never a fair chase with a gun in your hands!

I do not believe in making it fair in hunting.

I am there to kill, not be killed!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
A high percentage of hound hunts, likely tracking hunts for any of the big cats very likely end up in a charge, they will only push so far then the hunter becomes the hunted..

I call that fair chase any way you cut it..

The "chase" per se can hardly be called fair when the tracking is being conducted by a pack of hounds where the cat's chances of escaping are very slim.

Once it finds itself between a rock and a hard place the end result can go either way and its normally the hounds that get the rough end of the stick.

At the end of the day a client has chosen and paid for an operator, PH and area of choice which includes the services of a PH and his team or a professional dog handler and his pack to give him the best experience.

The skill in baiting a cat, building a blind, setup etc is that of an experienced Ph. The same with a dog handler and his pack and not with the client.

Bugger all to do with treeing a leopard - but Seigfried Sasoon's "Memoirs of a Fox Hunting Man" is a great read - an insight into a world long gone, before the Great War.

I know of a leopard hunt this year with dogs all in
around 22K, very good area/ph and dogs. Let me know if interested.

Hunted Zim 9 years ago with some buddies. My friend Dr. Z wanted a leopard and paid the money to have a houndsman from SA come over. Ten days later and a lot of miles and sweat he went home without a cat.

They got a trail 3 times, twice the cat gave the dogs the slip and the third time the cat went onto property they did not have permission to hunt.

So much for a sure thing.

Personal experience with bait hunting it is not a sure thing.

Personal experience with dog hunting (albeit not with leopards) is that it’s not a sure thing.

Both are fair chase and ethical hunts if done right. I think theoretically you will see more game with the hounds than not, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right one...

All the finger pointing accusation does none of us any good. If the quotas are scientifically set and adhered to, the offtake is safe and the genetic (and habitat) diversity is protected. Finis.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
OK then, let's all waddle over to the blind, sit on a chair, put the rifle on a tripod pointed in the general direction of the bait, and wait for the leopard to show up. When he does, on goes the light and bang the leopard is on the wall.

The fact that the leopard does not cooperate every time does not make this a chase. It's just a game of chance. And there is nothing fair about it, you are in a little fort and the cat is unaware of the ambush.

Hunting with dogs involves finding a fresh track, following said track for long distances, and then finally letting the dogs out and facing down the leopard at close range when he is mad as, well, a cat .. and when you make eye contact many times he will come for you. This sounds a lot like a chase to me, and the outcome is fair in the sense that it's you or the cat whose blood will soak the sand .. about as fair as it gets in modern hunting.

(My comment about shooting from a truck had nothing to do with leopards specifically, but everything to do with PHs who hold their noses over hunting with hounds but not when shooting from the truck.)

p.s. Hunting cats, pigs and other big game with hounds is a sporting tradition in many countries. Using bait is illegal in most countries. Enough said.

Agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
OK then, let's all waddle over to the blind, sit on a chair, put the rifle on a tripod pointed in the general direction of the bait, and wait for the leopard to show up. When he does, on goes the light and bang the leopard is on the wall.

The fact that the leopard does not cooperate every time does not make this a chase. It's just a game of chance. And there is nothing fair about it, you are in a little fort and the cat is unaware of the ambush.

Hunting with dogs involves finding a fresh track, following said track for long distances, and then finally letting the dogs out and facing down the leopard at close range when he is mad as, well, a cat .. and when you make eye contact many times he will come for you. This sounds a lot like a chase to me, and the outcome is fair in the sense that it's you or the cat whose blood will soak the sand .. about as fair as it gets in modern hunting.

(My comment about shooting from a truck had nothing to do with leopards specifically, but everything to do with PHs who hold their noses over hunting with hounds but not when shooting from the truck.)

p.s. Hunting cats, pigs and other big game with hounds is a sporting tradition in many countries. Using bait is illegal in most countries. Enough said.

Agree 100%

And just where do we draw the line?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
OK then, let's all waddle over to the blind, sit on a chair, put the rifle on a tripod pointed in the general direction of the bait, and wait for the leopard to show up. When he does, on goes the light and bang the leopard is on the wall.

The fact that the leopard does not cooperate every time does not make this a chase. It's just a game of chance. And there is nothing fair about it, you are in a little fort and the cat is unaware of the ambush.

Hunting with dogs involves finding a fresh track, following said track for long distances, and then finally letting the dogs out and facing down the leopard at close range when he is mad as, well, a cat .. and when you make eye contact many times he will come for you. This sounds a lot like a chase to me, and the outcome is fair in the sense that it's you or the cat whose blood will soak the sand .. about as fair as it gets in modern hunting.

(My comment about shooting from a truck had nothing to do with leopards specifically, but everything to do with PHs who hold their noses over hunting with hounds but not when shooting from the truck.)

p.s. Hunting cats, pigs and other big game with hounds is a sporting tradition in many countries. Using bait is illegal in most countries. Enough said.

Agree 100%

And just where do we draw the line?

I draw the line any time an idiot tries to tell me about "ethics"!

If I am happy with it, I could not careless what someone else thinks!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Personal experience with bait hunting it is not a sure thing.

Personal experience with dog hunting (albeit not with leopards) is that it’s not a sure thing.

Both are fair chase and ethical hunts if done right. I think theoretically you will see more game with the hounds than not, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right one...

All the finger pointing accusation does none of us any good. If the quotas are scientifically set and adhered to, the offtake is safe and the genetic (and habitat) diversity is protected. Finis.

He gets it!!!

I am still trying to figure out the difference between shooting plains game from a blind at a waterhole( commonly done, especially with a bow) and shooting a leopard from a blind at a bait station......

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
I am still trying to figure out the difference between shooting plains game from a blind at a waterhole( commonly done, especially with a bow) and shooting a leopard from a blind at a bait station......

It really boils down to how tall a horse the rider happens to be on.

Or hypocritical one wants to be.....My way is the only(ethical) way.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Or hypocritical one wants to be.....My way is the only(ethical) way.

Exactly!