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Originally posted by fairgame:
I have always felt that we have stepped outside the boundaries of fairchase here but will never condemn the sporting and traditional hunting of hounds elsewhere in the world. Just feel it has little place in Africa and historically never has.

As always if it is legal and it your thing then go for it.

The success rate is very high as so is one of the PH's shooting your charging cat.

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Originally posted by fairgame:
I have always felt that we have stepped outside the boundaries of fairchase here but will never condemn the sporting and traditional hunting of hounds elsewhere in the world. Just feel it has little place in Africa and historically never has...

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Originally posted by dogcat:

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Originally posted by fairgame:
I have always felt that we have stepped outside the boundaries of fairchase here but will never condemn the sporting and traditional hunting of hounds elsewhere in the world. Just feel it has little place in Africa and historically never has.

As always if it is legal and it your thing then go for it.

The success rate is very high as so is one of the PH's shooting your charging cat.

I suggest that you try it before you suggest the fair chase is not real. It is. In the USA mountain lions are hunted with dogs and that cat is pretty timid in comparison to leopards. If you step back and look at the fair chase or ethics of leopard over bait - it is not as "fair chase" as you might think. Baited leopard is not unlike baited whitetail deer or black bears that are baited over a pile of something smelly.

I am as solidly in favor of fair chase and ethical as you can be. Leopard with hounds is fair chase.

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Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have always felt that we have stepped outside the boundaries of fairchase here but will never condemn the sporting and traditional hunting of hounds elsewhere in the world. Just feel it has little place in Africa and historically never has.

As always if it is legal and it your thing then go for it.

The success rate is very high as so is one of the PH's shooting your charging cat.

I suggest that you try it before you suggest the fair chase is not real. It is. In the USA mountain lions are hunted with dogs and that cat is pretty timid in comparison to leopards. If you step back and look at the fair chase or ethics of leopard over bait - it is not as "fair chase" as you might think. Baited leopard is not unlike baited whitetail deer or black bears that are baited over a pile of something smelly.

I am as solidly in favor of fair chase and ethical as you can be. Leopard with hounds is fair chase.

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Originally posted by Saeed:
We had a bait, and someone from the camp put the blind right on an elephant path.

This path comes from a waterhole just below that hill.

We got to the blind very early one morning, and sat waiting for the leopard and light to come.

Suddenly, we could hear elephants drinking and playing just below us.

They had not passed us, so they must have come from below, and most likely they will head our way.

We got out of that blind very quickly!

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As opposed to, say, baiting? Baiting is certainly easier for everyone, but a cat hunt with hounds can be physically demanding and very uncertain of outcome. At least in hounding it is, in fact, FAIR CHASE.

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Actually yes, it could be physically demanding if the hunter is obese and has to waddle his fat sorry ass to the target.

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Originally posted by Charlie64:
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Actually yes, it could be physically demanding if the hunter is obese and has to waddle his fat sorry ass to the target.

Fulvio, You ran a client business and talk about people like that ! Just saying !


On the cats with hounds, tried it in the USA after mountain lion but we were outsmarted by the cats. Shot a spots in Namibia classic way from a blind after a few chess moves.

Addicted to bushpig over hounds ..... and there is certainly a place for that in Africa!!

Cheers

.

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Originally posted by Russ Gould:
sitting in a blind shooting a cat in a tree over bait with a light is somehow fair chase? what am i missing here?

and the "Africa" argument doesn't wash .. wasn't it common practice to shoot lions (which were vermin at one time) in Africa with beaters?

and don't a lot of you "PH" types allow/encourage clients to shoot from a vehicle?

and I have to say I have seen plenty of PHs who qualify for the "waddling" comment

methinks thou protesteth too much.

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Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
Another plus to hunting with hounds is not having to buy and spend time hanging all the baits. Hanging baits and running the chum line takes a good deal of time. It is more like fishing than hunting. Just make sure it is legal in your area. Going to be an exciting hunt. Man has been hunting with hounds for thousands of years. Dogs are a big part of our sport and I do not see anything unethical about hunting with them as long as you are abiding all rules and regulations.

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Originally posted by Russ Gould:
sitting in a blind shooting a cat in a tree over bait with a light is somehow fair chase? what am i missing here?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We had a bait, and someone from the camp put the blind right on an elephant path.

This path comes from a waterhole just below that hill.

We got to the blind very early one morning, and sat waiting for the leopard and light to come.

Suddenly, we could hear elephants drinking and playing just below us.

They had not passed us, so they must have come from below, and most likely they will head our way.

We got out of that blind very quickly!

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:

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Originally posted by Russ Gould:
sitting in a blind shooting a cat in a tree over bait with a light is somehow fair chase? what am i missing here?

I'm always intrigued by those who say hunting leopard or lion over bait isn't fair chase. I often wonder if those comments are made by people who haven't done much of it.

Again, we are back into the situation of hunters telling other hunters what is acceptable and what isn't, based solely on their preference of how they like to hunt, when in fact, all the methods described are 100% legal. Those legalities may differ from one area to another and they are usually developed by local conditions. For example, leopard at night with a light vs daylight only. If one is hunting in an extremely remote area, like Fulvio who commented above, it isn't necessary to night hunt. Hunting some areas of Zim where there is a large human population, cats go almost 100% nocturnal. If hunting is the viable management and conservation tool we claim it to be, the methods for offtake in that locale are developed to allow reasonable success rates. If you as a hunter, want to take a cat in 100% daylight conditions, don't book the populated areas. But that doesn't mean operators / PHs working in the more populated areas are doing anything unethical.

Back to the bait / fair chase argument, what makes it not fair chase. My interpretation of fair chase, (and therein lies the problem with these discussions as it is only my opinion and I have no right to tell anyone else what is cricket and what isn't, as long as the law is being followed), is a situation where the animal has a chance of escape. Hunting takes many forms. Some forms focus on playing the wind and using cover to get close to an animal. Some simply snipe the animal from long range, focusing on knowing the rifle's performance more so than the skills necessary to overcome an animals defense mechanisms. The baited / cat hunt takes the form of a chess game, trying to locate a cat and through a process of elimination, figure out the boundaries of his area, and try to determine where he is on his patrol cycle. Put the baits out behind him and it's all for naught. Put them too far in front ... same result. It's time consuming. Many times when you get a hit and think you've found him, he will refuse to return to the same bait twice and simply move on. But how to find where to start setting baits. That's usually done by the trackers finding a fresh track in an area the PH has experience with and knows of the presence of one or more cats.

And that is the primary essence of fair chase is it not? The fact that even upon finding a fresh track, simply hanging a bait in a tree is NO guarantee that a cat will hit it, and certainly no guarantee that he will hit it again, and absolutely no guarantee he will hit it when you are in the blind. So many things can happen, not the least of which is he watches you hang the bait and simply waits for you to leave before approaching; he hears you in the blind; smells you; or simply looses interest and moves on. A bait in a tree certainly doesn't hinder a cat in any way from escaping the hunter.

And before we blur the lines between baited and hound hunts for leopard in the fist place, don't most hound hunted leopard hunts initiate with getting a cat to hit a bait in the first place, then the hounds are released? If that is the case, please lecture us again on how baiting is unethical? Me personally, I have no interest in hound hunting. But I have absolutely nothing against it. Nothing at all. I simply enjoy the chess game.

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I grew up bird hunting behind dogs and love it still. Bait hunting has always seemed boring to me, as I equate it to some of the hunting here. However, reading some of the responses, it is nothing like that and I am intrigued.

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I find blinds interesting and it is like sitting in a small theatre and you witness all sorts of unusual things. Lion and elephant invasions make it tricky. The anticipation builds towards dusk or dawn and the bark of a Bushbuck or the chatter of monkeys gets your heart pumping.

The follow up is as exciting as it gets and you possibly face a wounded Leopard on his own terms on foot.

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Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

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I find blinds interesting and it is like sitting in a small theatre and you witness all sorts of unusual things. Lion and elephant invasions make it tricky. The anticipation builds towards dusk or dawn and the bark of a Bushbuck or the chatter of monkeys gets your heart pumping.

The follow up is as exciting as it gets and you possibly face a wounded Leopard on his own terms on foot.

I think we often forget there is much more to the hunt than just killing the leopard. In my experience a dog hunt is focused on getting the cat to bay and shooting it. Period!

Mark