...probably those with low fixed costs who emulate the "levi approach" of selling the equivalent of denim jeans to the miners on a mass-market scale...safari press?...boddington productions?...sci as a pac?...

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
AAW,

Another voice here saying that I'm not bitching but most people would better off workng at Wal-Mart than doing what I do. There are definitely some nice perks that go along with being in the "Business" but those perks do not pay the bills.

The people that I know that are doing very well in the safari business or appear to be are not doing it strictly from revenue received from safaris. Many have affluent backers that can afford a few million as play money. Others made money doing something before getting involved with safaris. Another group is involved in other endevours other than the actual hunting.

Some long term safari operators have done fine as they have avoided the pitfalls of getting too far in debt and getting too big and spread out but wealthy they are not.

Mark

Mark:

I wasn't thinking of you, but you are a perfect example. You obviously spend a lot of money on hunting. I would guess you spend more on hunting than you make booking hunts - at least that would be my guess. You certainly hunt as much as any booking agent with the exception of perhaps the Atchesons.

Ergo, you have some bucks salted away from some other endeavor. Maybe you inherited it. Maybe you sold a fishing business in Dillingham; whatever it was, I am happy for you.

Most people are doing in life exactly what they want to do. Me, I never want my hobby to turn into work.

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
AAW:
Hey man thanks for the business acumen compliment, but you're interpreting my post incorrectly. I am not registering a complaint. I've been very blessed within the hunting community, and I'm now working on several writing projects.

One of them is to explain the state of the safari industry prior to the recession and its impact upon it. That's all. This is not a bitch session.

I'm am truly seeking valued input from AR members on the posted topic. One of my goals is also to find out what correlation is there in the safari industry to---status versus wealth. Some have status with no wealth. Some have wealth with no status and some have both.

Let me reiterate, I am going somewhere with this topic. This is not me complaining about my situation. What I said above about DVD producers is a fact, and I am trying to elicit thoughtful input.

I would be interested in whatever you write about the impact of the recession. Hey, in addition to all the "gun rags" I also love Inc, Forbes, and Fortune mags. And I love Vanity Fair; great writing.

Will,

you can't blame that woman for wanting to move up from the flannel jammies with feet she had to wear last Safari!

Rich

True, true.

Sounds to me like Safari Operators /PHs have alot in common with the American Farmer.......!

In Zim it is the 'new operators' that were given concessions as part of an indigenous empowerment excersise and think they don't need to pay parks for the animals...Parks dept income is down by 65%...

Maintaing a national park or Safari Area is expensive. SA spends arround US$300 per Ha per year. When we were fighting (and loosing) the Rhino war, our budget was US$12 per ha per year...Parks income (of which 90% is from hunting) now ammounts to just $3 per ha per year...

Rich is relative to the area one lives in, as to what someone says he makes, I take all of that with a grain of salt. I may be wrong but when I hunt with Mark I am sure I am paying his room and board while we are hunting, and I doubt he would include this in what he makes in his mind. In my mind this is part of his income and that allows him to eat and sleep as well as I do on the hunt. Hell he even gets to write the cost of on his taxes but I don't. Love ya Mark.

DOJ - A lot of the time I have to negotiate with the landowner/concession holder to allow me to stay for nothing - sometimes they capitulate - other times they charge the PH a small portion for board and lodging.I questioned this - and one land owner told me that the PH's usually drink and eat more than the clients - in todays economic climate - very few land owners/concessionaires can afford " a free lunch" - thats why I only live on bread and water while you are in camp - and loose weight during the hunting season.
I am also very greatfull to all my clients and friends who insist on fattening me up during my visits to the States !!!

Damn, that was good bread and water, especially the "bar water".

Ganyana, Shakari or Mark DeWet:

Can you answer this question?

I remember watching a Vermaak Safaris VHS in 2001 and there was a statistic on the screen that stated 'the safari industry in RSA was a $70-million (USD) industry.'

Any idea what that number might be today? More? Less?

I don't know the answer to that but I'm sure PHASA could probably tell you. Their website is www.phasa.co.za

Yup! I've asked Marianna. Still waiting for the answer.

I get an idea that if you contact Gerhard Damm of African Indaba/Conservation force, he might be able to give you an Africa wide figure if you need it.

Sable Trail - I think at one time the Hunting Industry in SA - and related spins offs from this - might have been around $100 million - but due to present economic climates and the decline of the US$ - it may have slipped back to the 70 million mark !
Shakaris advice is the best way to find out.

Just check out how old the P H's rig is, compare his rifle to yours. Just how many P H' own doubles that they have purchased themselves? I have noted that there are a number of hunting clients who have upgraded P H's rifles.

In 1997 the figure for the value of the safari industry to Zimbabwe was US$70 Million. No complete data has been collected since

That figure was 'everything' that hunting contributed, from proffits and taxes n Ammo, to the use of Air Zimbabwe flights by hunters, money to air charter companies, yada yada. Bear in mind that over 40% of this was generated by hunters on private land. That was swept away by the farm invasions and legal hunting on private land now contributes only around 10% of the direct income (ie trophy fees and daily rates only being compared).

There are many new concessions...but really they are simply older concessions that have been broken up as the various CAMPFIRE (tribal council) programmes try to squeeze more money out of a dwindling number of animals. (remember that in the ld days commercial farmers rates used to contribute to over 90% of council income. 'Newfarmers' don't pay rates so the councils are broke...)

Given that Zim is considerably smaller than RSA, and despite the fact that there is ALOT more buff, ele, leopard, hippo etc in Zim than SA...Plainsgame hunting is actually more profitable and is a major SA industry.

In Namibia two years ago it was anounced by the government that hunting had overtaken small livestock (sheep and goats) farming in terms of contribution to the gross domestic product. For a coutry that was once considered 50% sheep territory that is quite a statement!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
In Namibia two years ago it was anounced by the government that hunting had overtaken small livestock (sheep and goats) farming in terms of contribution to the gross domestic product. For a coutry that was once considered 50% sheep territory that is quite a statement!

not too baaaaaaad at all.

And that's without fleecing anyone either!

F'ing comedians! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
In Zim it is the 'new operators' that were given concessions as part of an indigenous empowerment excersise and think they don't need to pay parks for the animals...Parks dept income is down by 65%...

Maintaing a national park or Safari Area is expensive. SA spends arround US$300 per Ha per year. When we were fighting (and loosing) the Rhino war, our budget was US$12 per ha per year...Parks income (of which 90% is from hunting) now ammounts to just $3 per ha per year...

Ganyana - has requirement that fees payable to Parks now be made is US Dollars helped at all?

Pete

I don't think that the PHs that I have hunted with in Zim are getting rich. Those that I know that have families seem to be just getting by. None of them can afford a $10,000 double rifle.

465H&h

Talentrec...basically no. If the operator doesn't pass on the money to parks and has the political clout to get away with it it doesn't matter what currency he isn't paying!

Switiching to US$ has just highlighted to both parks top management and conservation organisations like WWF just how under funded they are.

The people that do the dip & pack. They must be making BIG BUCKS, if I served my clients like they serve the hunters I would be tapping rabbits in my back yard for food. The only thing I can conclude from their poor service is they just don't have to worry about repeat business from satisifed clients. I don't want to hear about the government etc. I do know the whole country comes to a screaching halt in Dec. This is probably the most dissatisfactory part of the Africian hunting industry. Oh Christ I must stop my blood preasure is going thru the roof.

DOJ - I understand your frustration !! The D & P Companies generally have their act together when it comes to shipping of trophies - however they are held up by government departments (ie Vetinerary Dept. and local Nature Conservation Offices) in the issuing of the required permits.
As you know - the people who work in these Departments are government employeess, doing the least amount of work as possible, collecting their paychecks and benefits,taking numerous tea and lunch breaks, "sick" leave(because some long lost relative 100 times removed has died) and with no drive to go the extra mile, and riding the gravy train !! They do not understand service delivery - simply because they are guaranteed their job and pay, regardless of what they produce ! Simply put - they dont give a shit ! This is the African way. Consider yourself fortunate that you only have to deal with this frustration every now and again - while we have to deal with these morons everyday !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:
Simply put - they dont give a shit ! This is the African way. Consider yourself fortunate that you only have to deal with this frustration every now and again - while we have to deal with these morons everyday !!!!

Mark

You got it brother ... In the army, we used to call this condition "NAFI", remember?

What Mark said, plus one!

Rich

What is rich?

in money terms its only a few
BUT IN THE EXPERIENCE WE ARE ALL MILLIONAIRES

Mark/Bahati...As one of my Junior offices complained to me when I was squeezing him over the slow issuing of hunting quota forms..."Sah, I applied for a job at national parks, not work!"

Thinking back on it, I have always gotten my trophies from Zim quicker than those from RSA. JME

DOJ - The Zimbabweans have been going through a hard time of late.Very little investment coming into the country - massive unemployment ! Those people who have jobs, value them - as they know what it"s like to suffer - therefore they do try and do their job - and are relatively productive !
Our clowns have no idea how tough/difficult the rest of Africa is - as Bahati says NAFI - No Ambition and F...all Interest !!
Eish - The Gravy Train is the best ride they could ever wish for !

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Mark/Bahati...As one of my Junior offices complained to me when I was squeezing him over the slow issuing of hunting quota forms..."Sah, I applied for a job at national parks, not work!"

In Africa we don't really have tornados and tsunamis, nor do we have heavy showstorms and any of the other common natural threats. There is some AIDS and some droughts here and there ... but boy, do we have rampant, severe incompetence all over the place!

As they say don't confuse motion with action!

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
What is rich?

Rudy

It is when you need nothing.

"If thou wilt make a man happy, add not unto his riches but take away from his desires." ~ Epicurus

I guess I am rich as I don't NEED anything and I hope I never NEED anything. That being said I do WANT many things! My wife often says "Do you need that" to which I reply I don't need it but want it. Hold on you have the wrong idea.

Marc,

Having just read this entire thread, my educated guess is that the large operators selling lots of PG hunts in RSA are the guys getting "rich" or are at least at the top of the Safari Operator food chain in terms of retained earnings. Especially if they are vertically integrated; land owner with infrastructure in place to handle a hunting operation.

My logic comes from the fact that if a land owner of say, 50K hectares manages his resources correctly and has little, or no debt burden then this model would generate a profit. Some of these operators have also developed small cottage industries to sell knick-nacks to their clients thus adding even more to their bottom line.

My vote is for well organized land owner operated PG outfits in RSA. It will be interesting to see what your research comes up with . I hope you will be kind enough to share it with us.

JW

JW

Jeff

I beg to differ! Anyone with a 50,000 hectare ranch is already rich and does not rely on the income generated from the facilities. There are not many of those.

The average game ranch in SA is (was) under 2,000 hectares a few years ago and declining due to pieces being sold off by the owners stay alive.

Delve into the theory of game farming a little and you'll soon realise the dilemma of spatial requirements and carrying capacity vs sustainable utilization and population dynamics and you realize very quickly why genuine open areas are what they are in terms of trophy delivery.

To make substantial money on a game farm is often a pathetic return on investment, especially due to the high cost of land, infrastructure and operation - and risks. The fact that there's no debt on the land does not mean it does not cost anything - it probably only means a more relaxed cash flow!

quote:

Originally posted by Bahati:
Delve into the theory of game farming a little and you'll soon realise the dilemma of spatial requirements and carrying capacity vs sustainable utilization and population dynamics and you realize very quickly why genuine open areas are what they are in terms of trophy delivery.

I'm not smart enough this morning to understand what you are getting saying here. Sounds interesting, but could you clarify a bit for me?

Thanks,
Dean

quote:

Anyone with a 50,000 hectare ranch is already rich and does not rely on the income generated from the facilities. There are not many of those.

Precisely my point! They may not rely solely on the income generated, but I'll bet it is well worth their trouble to conduct sport / trophy hunting on their farms. If you read my post carefully I made a point to make clear that the folks with the ideal set-up will be the ones to make the most money and....Is that not the theme of this entire thread...Who is getting rich from safari hunting?

Same goes here in the states...It takes money to make money. And I'll be the wealthy farmers that have well organized operations are getting the best ROI of the lot.

Dave Fulson if Jeff Wemmer will sign up for the 2
million dollar sponsorship contract I am email him this afternoon. Or if you want to write a check directly to the Fulson Foundation, a program designed to help overstressed, underpaid TV producers wishing to get back to speed on their golf game.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Dave Fulson if Jeff Wemmer will sign up for the 2
million dollar sponsorship contract I am email him this afternoon. Or if you want to write a check directly to the Fulson Foundation, a program designed to help overstressed, underpaid TV producers wishing to get back to speed on their golf game.

+1

Dave....You had any recent "encounters"???

JW