Ivan Carter has 2 Heym Doubles, one a 450 3 1/4", He has been using this double for several years, the other his newest is a 600 Nitro.

Chris Cawwod 470 Krighoff ( Mozambique , Botswana , Tanzania , South Africa )
John Martin Venter .375 Krighoff ( Tanzania , Botswana , South Africa)
Myself .500x.416 krighoff ( 2nd one Blaser .500)( Tanzania, Botswana , Mozambique , South Africa , Namibia).

Having used .416 remington , .458 Winchester , .500 Blaser over the last 27 years as a PH , the Krighoff realy stands out as a work horse and reliable firearm.
I have changed from .500 to the .500x.416 as penetration seems to be better and the .416 remains a awesome calibre on Buff and Elephant.

I remember Alan Vincent purchasing a .500 NE a couple years ago, I believe it was a Heym, but may have been a Merkel.

Alan has his double, but I think he prefers his 450 Ackley bolt action rifle.

Has anyone seen the video of Jeff Ran shooting an elephant with a Berretta double?

I have not seen it, but I understand it was quite a fiasco, at the end of it he had to use his bolt action rifle to get the elephant down.

I believe I remember seeing a show where he gave his son a Beretta Double and they hunted elephant with it. Don't remember the details other than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Alan has his double, but I think he prefers his 450 Ackley bolt action rifle.

Has anyone seen the video of Jeff Ran shooting an elephant with a Berretta double?

I have not seen it, but I understand it was quite a fiasco, at the end of it he had to use his bolt action rifle to get the elephant down.

The one I am talking about apparently was shown on TV.

Where he shoots an elephant, twice, in the head, and fails to kill it. He then had to take his bolt action rifle and finish the job.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The one I am talking about apparently was shown on TV.

Where he shoots an elephant, twice, in the head, and fails to kill it. He then had to take his bolt action rifle and finish the job.

Of course, he could have just reloaded the double.

That is true, but he did not. He picked another rifle to finish off the elephant.

That is why I want to hear from those who have seen that video.

quote:

Has anyone seen the video of Jeff Ran shooting an elephant with a Berretta double?

I have not seen it, but I understand it was quite a fiasco, at the end of it he had to use his bolt action rifle to get the elephant down.

Was it a fiasco due to the rifle being a Beretta or might the results have been different had it been a Holland or Rigby?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That is true, but he did not. He picked another rifle to finish off the elephant.

That is why I want to hear from those who have seen that video.

Saeed,

I have seen the video and have it on record. He was hunting two bulls himself to clean up his quota. Both were initially shot with full frontals and in neither case was he successful. He also had a second frontal chance at the second bull and that wasn't successful either. He did use a back up bolt gun on the first. It appeared that that was quicker than reloading his double. But don't know that for a fact.

He is sposored by Fedearal and in the show stated that he was using Federal factory Sledge Hammer solids. Jeff ahs been videoed shooting several elephants in the past with frontal shots using other rifles and was always successful. He knows where to shoot an elephant on frontal shots. The bullet strikes on these two elephants looked to be properly placed for what that is worth. My suspicion is that the factory loads were not of proper velocity in the 470 Beretta, not 2,150 fps but more in the 2,050 fps range. That is why I asked in another thread what velocities people were getting with this brand of ammo. One respodent said that he found a lot of variation in this ammo. I insist on 2,150 fps in my 465 and 470 doubles and have never had a penetration problem.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Saeed,

I have seen the video and have it on record. He was hunting two bulls himself to clean up his quota. Both were initially shot with full frontals and in neither case was he successful. He also had a second frontal chance at the second bull and that wasn't successful either. He did use a back up bolt gun on the first. It appeared that that was quicker than reloading his double. But don't know that for a fact. He is sposored by Fedearal and in the show stated that he was using Federal factory Sledge Hammer solids.

MacD37 here, Saeed can speak for himself! I have not seen the video you are discussing, but what I do have is some experience with factory Federal ammo using Sledge Hammer Solids in a 470NE double rifle. Your reports that the ammo is inconsistent in it’s velocities from what I’ve cronoed in my Merkel with 24 inch barrels. I have found, with over 100 rounds of this ammo that the velocities range from 2010 fps, to 2175 fps (165 fPS spread). The original owner of this rifle took two bull elephant with this rifle and with the same factory ammo and bullets. He said he didn’t have good results with it on his elephants either. Of course that is a very small sample but IMO, shows the ammo is not consistant, and may have been Jeffs problem.

quote:

465H&H
Jeff ahs been videoed shooting several elephants in the past with frontal shots using other rifles and was always successful. He knows where to shoot an elephant on frontal shots. The bullet strikes on these two elephants looked to be properly placed for what that is worth. My suspicion is that the factory loads were not of proper velocity in the 470 Beretta, not 2,150 fps but more in the 2,050 fps range. That is why I asked in another thread what velocities people were getting with this brand of ammo. One respodent said that he found a lot of variation in this ammo. I insist on 2,150 fps in my 465 and 470 doubles and have never had a penetration problem.

465H&H

I have seen pleanty of animals taken by Jeff Rann including elephant and as far as I’m concerned he is about the best I have ever seen with frontal brain shots on elephant, and charging buffalo as well! Of course it is only a guess on my part, but I’d think the ammo was his problem in that video.

ON the changing to a bolt rifle from the Beretta double was likely because he realized the ammo wasn’t up to the task, and changed to a rifle he knew had dependable ammo in it’s magazine because in a bolt rifle it certainly wouldn’t be loaded with the same 470NE ammo as the double rifle. I have my doubts that The change was because he thought it was a faster choice, because Jeff Rann is a dyed in the wool double rifle man.

My opinion is that the problem with this ammo is the fact that the powder charge only about half fills the case, and there is no filler in the case to take up airspace, causing the inconsistant velocities! I have no idea what powder they used in this ammo, but most modern powders in thos large cases depends on filler to hold the powder against the primer, or velocities will be very erratic!

All supposition on my part however!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That is true, but he did not. He picked another rifle to finish off the elephant.

That is why I want to hear from those who have seen that video.

Saeed,

I have seen the video and have it on record. He was hunting two bulls himself to clean up his quota. Both were initially shot with full frontals and in neither case was he successful. He also had a second frontal chance at the second bull and that wasn't successful either. He did use a back up bolt gun on the first. It appeared that that was quicker than reloading his double. But don't know that for a fact.

He is sposored by Fedearal and in the show stated that he was using Federal factory Sledge Hammer solids. Jeff ahs been videoed shooting several elephants in the past with frontal shots using other rifles and was always successful. He knows where to shoot an elephant on frontal shots. The bullet strikes on these two elephants looked to be properly placed for what that is worth. My suspicion is that the factory loads were not of proper velocity in the 470 Beretta, not 2,150 fps but more in the 2,050 fps range. That is why I asked in another thread what velocities people were getting with this brand of ammo. One respodent said that he found a lot of variation in this ammo. I insist on 2,150 fps in my 465 and 470 doubles and have never had a penetration problem.

465H&H

I have a hard time believing a velocity difference of less than 5% is going to make any difference, especially considering the drag of any object through through a fluid is proportional to the square of its velocity.

Let's put it this way: you likely get a plus or minus velocity deviation of what? 20 fps? 40 fps? That makes 100 feet even less of an issue.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The results of the bullet would be far more critical.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That is true, but he did not. He picked another rifle to finish off the elephant.

That is why I want to hear from those who have seen that video.

Saeed,

I have seen the video and have it on record. He was hunting two bulls himself to clean up his quota. Both were initially shot with full frontals and in neither case was he successful. He also had a second frontal chance at the second bull and that wasn't successful either. He did use a back up bolt gun on the first. It appeared that that was quicker than reloading his double. But don't know that for a fact.

He is sposored by Fedearal and in the show stated that he was using Federal factory Sledge Hammer solids. Jeff ahs been videoed shooting several elephants in the past with frontal shots using other rifles and was always successful. He knows where to shoot an elephant on frontal shots. The bullet strikes on these two elephants looked to be properly placed for what that is worth. My suspicion is that the factory loads were not of proper velocity in the 470 Beretta, not 2,150 fps but more in the 2,050 fps range. That is why I asked in another thread what velocities people were getting with this brand of ammo. One respodent said that he found a lot of variation in this ammo. I insist on 2,150 fps in my 465 and 470 doubles and have never had a penetration problem.

465H&H

I have a hard time believing a velocity difference of less than 5% is going to make any difference, especially considering the drag of any object through through a fluid is proportional to the square of its velocity.

Let's put it this way: you likely get a plus or minus velocity deviation of what? 20 fps? 40 fps? That makes 100 feet even less of an issue.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The results of the bullet would be far more critical.

Read the post above and you will see that Mac had a 165 fps difference. Also shoot a few elephant as I have with both velocities and I believe you will change your opinion.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That is true, but he did not. He picked another rifle to finish off the elephant.

That is why I want to hear from those who have seen that video.

Saeed,

I have seen the video and have it on record. He was hunting two bulls himself to clean up his quota. Both were initially shot with full frontals and in neither case was he successful. He also had a second frontal chance at the second bull and that wasn't successful either. He did use a back up bolt gun on the first. It appeared that that was quicker than reloading his double. But don't know that for a fact.

He is sposored by Fedearal and in the show stated that he was using Federal factory Sledge Hammer solids. Jeff ahs been videoed shooting several elephants in the past with frontal shots using other rifles and was always successful. He knows where to shoot an elephant on frontal shots. The bullet strikes on these two elephants looked to be properly placed for what that is worth. My suspicion is that the factory loads were not of proper velocity in the 470 Beretta, not 2,150 fps but more in the 2,050 fps range. That is why I asked in another thread what velocities people were getting with this brand of ammo. One respodent said that he found a lot of variation in this ammo. I insist on 2,150 fps in my 465 and 470 doubles and have never had a penetration problem.

465H&H

I have a hard time believing a velocity difference of less than 5% is going to make any difference, especially considering the drag of any object through through a fluid is proportional to the square of its velocity.

Let's put it this way: you likely get a plus or minus velocity deviation of what? 20 fps? 40 fps? That makes 100 feet even less of an issue.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The results of the bullet would be far more critical.

Read the post above and you will see that Mac had a 165 fps difference. Also shoot a few elephant as I have with both velocities and I believe you will change your opinion.

465H&H

465:

I have no intention of shooting elephants with the load you describe. My .416 does a fine job without every having me question what I am doing with loads, etc.

You posited that a difference of 100 fps makes all the difference in the world. I will stick to my position: 100 fps is less than 5%. How 2050 makes for lost elephants and 2150 kills them stone dead just doesn't make any sense from a math standpoint. There might be more to the "lost elephants" than bullet velocity. At some point I am sure velocity does matter, but I think it is a lot more than 100 fps.

As I recall from the Dangerous Game episode that I watched last evening, Rann shot the first bull four times with Beretta double( twice in the frontal brain area and twice on the ground) and the second bull twice with Beretta double (again frontal) and I believe twice with the bolt. He also showed a trophy bonded sledgehammer solid that he had retreeved out of another bull shot a few days earlier which could have been reloaded.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
As I recall from the Dangerous Game episode that I watched last evening, Rann shot the first bull four times with Beretta double( twice in the frontal brain area and twice on the ground) and the second bull twice with Beretta double (again frontal) and I believe twice with the bolt. He also showed a trophy bonded sledgehammer solid that he had retreeved out of another bull shot a few days earlier which could have been reloaded.

Being at a disadvantage, not having seen the video myself, my take is simply a guess at best! However judging from the description above, and my experience with the inconsistent velocities of the Federal 470NE factory ammo with the Sledge Hammer solids, it seems, to me at least, if bullets were place well, a case can be made for some sort of failure in the ammo requiring more shots, and or changing to a rifle loaded with different ammo!

The example of the fired and recovered S.H. solid, shown by Rann, that could be re-loaded, really only attests to the bullet not being deformed. I have seen many other brands that are recovered in the same shape.

That fact alone is no proof that the bullet worked as it was supposed to. It gives no indication of the velocity at which it was moving, or of straight-line penetration. Any bullet will act differently depending on velocity, and what it hits after initial impact. Slower may cause the bullet to veer off quicker after contacting hard bone, or simply stop before it gets to the brain in an elephant.

Knowing how Jeff Rann operates and his skill with a double rifle, I’d say he was just doing what was needed at the time! Films have a way of leaving the wrong impression at times! There are many PHs that I would have no problem backing my play, several just as good but none better than Jeff Rann !

......................................... .................................

Having seen a federal 'solid' penetrate a total of 6" on an elephant on the PH exam (.375- it broke appart)and another from a .458 win fail to penetrate sufficiently to kill on a side placed brain shot (cnadidate was Dolf Stoki)...yes, there are always ammo failures - some brands have the occasional one, with some it is quite common with others remarkably rare...but there are always failures if you shoot enough.

Here is a link to the video. It is titled "Another Tough Customer", with the caption "Jeff Rann spends half a dozen bullets taking down a trophy elephant bull".

Looks to me like he simply missed the brain but you cant see for sure. They do not show the shot location on the dead bull. If he did miss it was not by much. The bull went down after the second shot only to get back up.

I will let the experts here offer their opinions. I am just sorry it was not me pulling the trigger!



Link

That is my take on it as well. Availability is a deciding factor.

Let's face it. English doubles were never produced in large numbers and always were way too expensive for the average hunter or PH. That is probably as much true today as in the past. Now Continental and US versions are filling a demand. Though Butch's doubles are not cheap.

If I were looking for an English double, I would email Chris Soyza at Westley Richards in Birmingham to see what he has. He runs their sales, marketing and gun room production. I used to know Chris years ago, and Chris know doubles inside and out, as both a metallurgical engineer and one who hunted Malay elephants in his youth.

OTOH, I already have mine -- Jim Bell's old H&H 500/450 that he restocked with a LH butt stock by Al Biesen. Vintage 1906. Couldn't be better, in my view. I have his dies and some of his brass, and this caliber uses .458 bullets so there is a wide choice at reasonable prices. As I read the stories, the .465, .470 and .500, among others, were all designed to replicate the performance of the .450 caliber variations when they were banned in India and the Sudan, so I am not losing anything in such an old gun. Oh, and Mark, mine was reconditioned in Britain too, by H&H. You really should have bought that 500/465. $12K in 2000 was a darned good price. (I won't tell you what I paid for mine in 1985.You would be crying even more.)

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Updating the count:

English/9
Merkel/3 *
Chapuis/1*
Krieghoff/9*
Searcy/1
European/2 ****the above, and below in the list are all European!
Heym/1*

.500/6
.470/16
.500-.465/2
.577/2
.500-.416/3
.450 NE/1

Any thoughts regarding the number of Krieghoffs?

Times have changed gentlemen, now that the new double rifles and good available ammo supply has come back. In Africa today you only see a hand full of Brit doubles, because of two things, availability, and cost! I've seen a number of Krieghoffs,Merkels, and a few Chapuis, There are several Searcys, and I konw of at least one Pedersoli conversion to 450#2 NE, and one still chambered for 45-70 in use in Africa.

I believe if they all cost the same, and all were available, you would see a large amount of Britt rifles, but as it stands today, the cheapest reliable double rifle is the Krieghoff, or the Merkel, and there are a number of these there! What I have never seen in the hands of a PH, is a Blaser double rifle! To a PH cost is the primary factor, right along with reliability. Not many Phs are going to pay $25K up for a double rifle,simply because it is Britt made, when he can get a good used or new, reliable accurate Merkel, or Krieghoff double rifle for under $10K!

I just watched the video of Jeff Rann. Yes, he put one round into the bull with a bolt action rifle but he switched back to the double immediately after that. He may have switched to the bolt gun on the one shot due to the distance that had opened up between himself and the bull.

Looks to me like he just missed the brain on the first shot and was shooting thru brush or at the bull while running with less than optimum shot angles to try and prevent it from getting away.

It's hard to draw any conclusions about ammo performance from this video.

Mark Sullivan's doubles,Watson Bros.700 nitro express-Marcel Thys 600 nitro express-Charles Osborne 577 nitro express-Willam Evans 500 nitro express.

This thread is very inconclusive but,

Lou Hallamore - Evans 470
Richard Cooke - Kreighoff 500
Cliff Walker - Older German 577

Brent Hein- who cares?

zzz

Are there any dicount to PHs .Blaser and CZ and other brands offer discounts for guides ,does anybody knows if HEYM or KRIEGHOFF has the same discounts for doubles .

Only this last week a client of mine and his PH were tracking a single buffalo. At 10 yards it suddenly charged them full on, they dropped him at 5 yards. the client was using a 470 and the ph a 500.

No blasers there, no surprise.
Wonder how many VC's are in the field these days? Dumon, Stumpfe, Bell Cross, Baldy...all been hooked-up, as they say.

Oh Aaron N has one too.

Ivan has a Heym .600 as well. Mark Vallaro uses a Hyem 470, Brent has a .500 Heym. There may be at least one other Chifuti PH who now has a Heym.

Andrew Baldry- VC 500 NE

Andrew used this on my safari with him, but his 404 was in for repairs. Perhaps he uses both equally?

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Andrew Baldry- VC 500 NE

Andrew used this on my safari with him, but his 404 was in for repairs. Perhaps he uses both equally?

The .404 is very accurate and it has been with me for some time. I do not hunt elephant and will bear the double for DG. Trouble with the double is is has to be carried loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Andrew Baldry- VC 500 NE

Andrew used this on my safari with him, but his 404 was in for repairs. Perhaps he uses both equally?

The .404 is very accurate and it has been with me for some time. I do not hunt elephant and will bear the double for DG. Trouble with the double is is has to be carried loaded.

They have to be loaded to go bang mate!!!

Carrying a double is just a slightly different mindset. Yes it is always loaded and on safe in animal country. I troubled with the same iissue when I first started carrying one daily.

Barry Style no longer carries his Searcy .470. Just about everything that could possibly go wrong with a double rifle has gone wrong with that particular one. It is currently in three pieces with very little hope of seeing any use again.

He uses his grandfather's old .458 pre-`64 as well as a Ruger M77 .416 Rigby these days.

Phillip Smythe - VC 500 NE

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
Barry Style no longer carries his Searcy .470. Just about everything that could possibly go wrong with a double rifle has gone wrong with that particular one. It is currently in three pieces with very little hope of seeing any use again.

Maybe he made a poor decision in investing his money where he did, instead of buying into known, reputable brands which come in varying price tags tailored to meet a client's financial status.

Peter Wood 475 no.2 English

Wasn't Barry given his Searcy?

Indeed he was given the Searcy. Sometimes I'm amazed at the reaction one gets on forums like these. A post about a broken gun immediately leads to someone questioning the personal judgment of the gun's owner.

Inquiring minds always want to know about potential product maladies and even more importantly the manufacturer's reponse to rectify. I know there are a LOT of Searcy owners here and I don't recall seeing any issues previously and this leads me to believe it is an isolated case. Still, details would be nice. jorge

I had issues with my VC which can be put down to user error but the French and Kebco bent over backwards to get it sorted. Sorted it is.

quote:

Originally posted by jvw375:
Indeed he was given the Searcy. Sometimes I'm amazed at the reaction one gets on forums like these. A post about a broken gun immediately leads to someone questioning the personal judgment of the gun's owner.

Yup!

Whether it was bought, given or borrowed is irrelevant.

Learning something about the weapon you intend placing your life upon may avoid such mishaps. Searcy may be a wizard on bolt action rifles but hardly close to some other double-rifle makers.

The original poster made the mistake by generalizing when he said:

" Just about everything that could possibly go wrong with a double rifle has gone wrong with that particular one ".

and making it sound as though double rifles have a known tendency to break down when instead they are probably the safest and most reliable in the field.

quote:

Maybe he made a poor decision in investing his money where he did, instead of buying into known, reputable brands which come in varying price tags tailored to meet a client's financial status.

Really?

You should just apologize for this ignorant over generalization towards Barry. You made a dumb ass statement before knowing the facts, it happens. A gentleman acknowledges it rights the wrong and moves on.

Dear Fujo,

Whatever, Einstein.

Cheerio.