quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
So by this post you do not know a damned thing other than there is a dispute.

Not exactly correct. I know where I have been and what the GPS said at that time.

According to my GPS, the boundary where Intercons camp is, is in RHS's area.

RHS says it's in their area (by the block designation) and Intercon does not want to know where the boundary is, at least not until they have to.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Using the information you have provided anyone booking with RHS should be very careful as they may be hunting on RJ's concession and US citizens could face a possible Lacey Act prosecution.

That is correct, with the exception that it is not Mr. Josch's concession, it belongs to Intercon.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Now, boys and girls, take about 3 steps back and look at this. On one side you have RHS, one of the most respected companies with multiple concessions, millions of dollars invested, and a a long-term reputation.
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In case you didn't know it, building tracks up mountains isn't easy. Just who do you think built the gd track up there, Intercon or RHS? Or RJ?? Do you seriously think that a PH who leases a concession on a part-time basis is going to fund such a thing?? It is one thing to sneak into an area and poach and quite another to build a track in someone else's area. (On one of my trips to Burko they had just finished this track.)

Seeing the manner RJ hunts this area(the right way: the hard way/low impact, etc.) I find it difficult to feel too bad for RHS in light of the fact that their "road to the top of the mountain" is destroying what I see as the beauty of the area.

I guess RHS knows that their clientele does not book with them to to climb mountains on foot, so building a road to the top trumps all aesthetic concerns.

Jason

First of all, a "road" up the mountain is not a "road" at all, but a track.

If you look at Saeed's video, you will see that TGT build a track up Mt. Gelai and, indeed, a lovely cabin. They hardly destroyed the area.

A track cannot be taken clear to any mountain peak. What it does is to allow people and supplies to get up to a staging point.

My first mountain hunt was with RHS in 1996---not up Essimingor, but Burko, which is MUCH steeper. The PH used camels to get supplies up for a spike camp.

Somehow, RJ has come across as some puritan surrounded by charletons out to destroy the environment. This is BS.

In an earlier post I mentioned that I was there and had seen the poaching for myself. This is true. I hunted Essimingor about 8 years ago. I didn't know that RJ existed until we saw him coming down off this road (track) (and for shame, in a Land Cruiser!!!) The PH took off after him but quickly decided against it. We went back up the track to the top. Now, I am not the greatest tracker in the world, but I sure as hell can follow car tracks and human footprints.

At that time I was made aware of the fact that RJ's crossing the border was already an issue.

I do not know what RJ has done at other times or since then. I can testify as to what I saw (not what Shadow or anyone else has seen.)

RHS (as is TGT and others) are very "old school". Poaching just isn't done. The first time I hunted Makao, we were driving along the track which divides TGT and RHS. A very good lion was sitting under a tree just a few meters away, but across the track. We stopped a minute for photos and drove on. A similar incident happened in Rungwa, this time with a sable, as I recall, on Danny McCallum's land.

My point is this---poaching is something which "just isn't done". Publicly disparaging other PH's "just isn't done" either. I think this reticence on the part of RHS has let this situation go on for years.

Are you saying that the camp is yards or miles over the line? I see no reason to be vague about the location.

JohnDL, Thank you for the informative post. This is actually the kind of thing I was trying to get at. Can you tell us when this occured?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
In an earlier post I mentioned that I was there and had seen the poaching for myself. This is true. I hunted Essimingor about 8 years ago. I didn't know that RJ existed until we saw him coming down off this road (track) (and for shame, in a Land Cruiser!!!) The PH took off after him but quickly decided against it. We went back up the track to the top. Now, I am not the greatest tracker in the world, but I sure as hell can follow car tracks and human footprints.

That was an outstanding post and it is really nice to see someone with a name declare what they have actually seen.

The argument is all about the disputed hunting rights on a concession - according to TSK the issue is in the hands of the legal experts and has been tabled with the Wildlife Authorities - this has also been confirmed.

Rather than speculating and tarnishing these two individuals why not sit back and wait for a ruling, then 'tar and feather' the culprit?

Accusing one or the other at this point in time will eventually lead to someone feeling stupid
when the ruling comes out.

Can anyone twll me what teh difference is between this and poaching?

If he is hunting on another person's concession, then he poaching, and should be treated as such.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Rather than speculating and tarnishing these two individuals why not sit back and wait for a ruling, then 'tar and feather' the culprit?

[Accusing one or the other at this point in time will eventually lead to someone feeling stupid when the ruling comes out.]

Hmmmmm.....you are new around here. Hasn't stopped anyone yet!

Brett

Mike

There, you did it! You made me dig up my old records. I did not actually hunt there 8 years ago, but it was in 2005.

I should also be technically accurate in that I certainly did NOT see RJ actually killing any animals. I make the assumption that that is what their purpose was.

I should also point out that I do not possess a block map showing precise border delineations. I would hasten to point out that building tracks up mountains is difficult. I doubt anyone would build a track in what they believed to be someone else's concession.

Interesting anecdote. The "chasing" incident in 2005 forced the PH to explain to me why he had chased and some of the history. After explaining everything, he then went on to say that RJ WAS a good hunter!(?). Go figure!

I think this post has gotten diverted far from the original intention; discussion of a video. As was pointed out, this matter is in the courts and we are not going to decide it.

This does not sound to me like an issue where one guy is trying to sneak into another's territory and poach some game. It sounds like a long standing dissagreement on where the actual boundary is located. Both fellows seem to respect one another,(From the posts above) yet cannot agree on where one concession begins and the other ends.

Sounds like getting a ruling from the powers that be, is a good coarse of action, and has already been innitiated.Why not let it all play out.

Come 2013, it appears that the entire mt will fall in Mto wa Mbu concession. Not sure who the concession holder will be then

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Come 2013, it appears that the entire mt will fall in Mto wa Mbu concession. Not sure who the concession holder will be then

That is one reason RHS is not pushing this. The restructure and dividing of the blocks will come soon.

Intercon is on it's last legs IMO. Mto Wa Mbu is about their best block and they have let it go to sh*t (well, not sure they had much say in the matter with the amount of people). The village on the east side of their block has had bus service to it for quite some time, there are roads and bomas all over the place.

It's too bad, it used to be a very nice place.

Last I was there about 15 years ago it was full of animals. Now I hear, it's full of cows and people. Sad

Unfortunately, Masailand is becoming more and more MASAIland. The gov't has been unwilling to curb them. They have overgrazed their land and have spread their scrawny cattle over the countryside.

A few years ago, I was hunting an area where I had shot a lion a few years back. I had taken a GPS reading where I shot the lion and returned to the same locale. What had been dense thicket with few people had been cleared and was about 200m from a Masai manyatta.

This is really a shame to see some of the most beautiful areas you could care to see absolutely destroyed.

One must understand the history of the Maasai in Northern Tz to be able to pass judgement on them. I hate what they do to the environment with their livestock (and to large predators!!). As a tribe, they have been marginalized through forceful removal from their ancestral lands. Their historical range has shrunk by probably 50% and their numbers have increased a hundred fold. They "live" in some of the most inhospitable land available and have to survive. Most of Serengeti was part of their traditional pastoralist range. Their customs prevent them from adapting to the times and diversifying their traditions and culture. In any case, to do so would mean the extinction of the traditional maasai as we all love to see them. East Africa without the Maasai would be diminished culturally and socially.

And, let's not forget that Tz has set aside 28% of its land mass for wildlife and natural resource protection. That is one of the highest rates in the world!! We cannot expect this to increase with the current population growth! It would be a miracle if in 20 or 50 years time, the Tz Government will be able to maintain this netwrok of protected areas and something that I would gladly accept to the detriment of wildlife on the rest of land.

Wildlife outside this 28% protected land will dissapear. That still leaves a huge amount to focus our efforts on preserving.

quote:

And, let's not forget that Tz has set aside 28% of its land mass for wildlife and natural resource protection. That is one of the highest rates in the world!! We cannot expect this to increase with the current population growth! It would be a miracle if in 20 or 50 years time, the Tz Government will be able to maintain this netwrok of protected areas and something that I would gladly accept to the detriment of wildlife on the rest of land.

Wildlife outside this 28% protected land will dissapear. That still leaves a huge amount to focus our efforts on preserving.

....sigh......Bwana...I believe you are probably 100% correct....sigh.....