So hypothetically you are traveling in a line and carrying in such a fashion. How does one turn left to look at something or turn around to talk to the guy behind you without sweeping them with your muzzle? And if it was such a huge advantage why doesn’t anyone else do it?

Agree that safety starts with the individual. I am pretty sure it’s not a military convention as it would violate most manual of arms that I am aware of

After having a sling catch a stob on a log
while I was sneaking up an icy trail to get a
shot at a bull elk I'd seen and getting
dumped me on my ass. i won't have a damned sling on any of my rifles.

Only reason I have a front
stud is to use a bipod.

When I follow someone with a sling I'm always catching hell for being
50 feet behind because I don't like looking down the muzzles.

GS: am going to pm you

Never looked logical to me for AC.
Guns always seemed heavy that way even though it's at the balance point.

At least half the time it looks to me like the muzzle's pointed at the guy in front.
No wonder so many PH's get shot.

The safest person I've ever watched carry a rifle on a sling is Allan in Saeed's videos.
Nearly always has ahold of the butt.
That's controlled and safe as can be.
Yet looks mighty uncomfortable to me.
I couldn't walk in that position long.

George

No matter how you carry you rifle, if you get into all sorts of terrain, bush, grass, forest, the muzzle WILL be pointed at someone, sometime.

It is not possible to carry your rifle in one specific way while hunting.

What is more important is who you are hunting with.

If they are aware of this or not.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So hypothetically you are traveling in a line and carrying in such a fashion. How does one turn left to look at something or turn around to talk to the guy behind you without sweeping them with your muzzle? And if it was such a huge advantage why doesn’t anyone else do it?

Agree that safety starts with the individual. I am pretty sure it’s not a military convention as it would violate most manual of arms that I am aware of

You are always in control of the muzzle and if you turn either left/right you increase the downward angle or allow it to rise high and above and if you are "glassing" you can actually have the muzzles at almost 180 deg. to the carrying shoulder and still facing down. (Practice makes perfect)

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No matter how you carry you rifle, if you get into all sorts of terrain, bush, grass, forest, the muzzle WILL be pointed at someone, sometime.

It is not possible to carry your rifle in one specific way while hunting.

What is more important is who you are hunting with.

If they are aware of this or not.

That’s very true in my opinion, but we all know about opinions.

I get worried out quail hunting and rarely hunt with people I don’t know. All of a sudden, birds flush (which can almost sound like a machine gun attack) and then shots are going off and hopefully not at you, others, or dogs. There is a reason I will also stay in the truck if too many guys in the field.

My African experience (only PG twice) has been with a slung boltgun. It was shifted in different ways thoughout stalking periods, but I always had a hand on the rifle to control. Sometimes, I carried cross arms.

I often hunt with an empty chamber/bolt up here and in in the steep hills or Argentina. Although the buffalo in Argentina aren’t looking to collect my money or decide how they want to die like their cape cousins, I know to cycle if needed. Should I be bolt up, I’m always checking. I have carried some of my heavier guns AC when I’ve been out alone walking back and needed to rest my other body parts.

This is also the same philosophy I use with my home defense pistols or truck pistol, as I hope my motor skills and training will include that racking of the slide as I bring the pistol up for business. Luckily, I’ve never had to really test that in real life.

That’s how I do it. That being said, I think Todd has plenty of KMs under his belt there, elsewhere, and up in the air and his method works for him. At the same time, we’ve seen more A/Ds on this forum than ever necessary. Many of them from pure A/D to absolute N/D. These things we carry in the field go boom for a reason; some times not the reason intended...

I have personally experience 3 instances where a person got shot while bird hunting.

In one instant, a friend standing next to me got hit with a single pellet.

There were a number of people shooting, and he smacked his neck, saying “bloody mosquitoes!”

Thinking he got bit by a mossie.

I looked at him, and saw a dark spot on his dishdasha’s collar.

I looked closely, and could clearly see it was a shotgun pellet that left its mark.

A red spot was on his neck.

Luckily were too far for any damage to be done.

On another occasion someone got a pellet imbedded in his nose!

Again, too far for any serious damage.

Once, over 40 years ago, I confiscated a pistol from a police officer at the shooting club.

I still have the gun.

There is a workshop there, and one walks out of it for about 20 yards before turning right into the shooting range.

This idiot was cleaning his pistol in the workshop, as he finished, I saw him slide a full magazine into it, pressed the button to chamber a round, and started walking to the shooting range.

I walked behind him, got hold of the pistol, putting my thump between the hammer and the firing pin, and took it away from him.

He was very surprised at this.

I told him I am taking his gun away, and his boss can have it back if he calls me.

I never got a call.

Very hard to imagine anyone doing this.

I would simply refuse to walk in front of anybody using the African carry. I don’t care how clever they think they are, it isn’t their life that is in danger.

If you have muzzle control and muzzle awareness, your loaded weapon will never flag anyone. That applies regardless of what realistic, comfortable or cool guy approach needed or imagined to be needed for carry. However, this type of awareness only comes with practice and enforced discipline. When situation dictates that muzzles will flag an unintentional target (i.e. training, difficult terrain, loading unloading of vehicle, obstacles, maintenance, etc.) the weapon should be cleared and shown to everyone affected that is cleared and safe. When weapons are loaded, everyone affected should be notified of that fact. It is not difficult when applied and enforced as standard, non-negotiable practice. Where I came from if you could not follow that simple practice, we sent you back to conventional military because you were not needed or trusted.

Safe shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
If you have muzzle control and muzzle awareness, your loaded weapon will never flag anyone. That applies regardless of what realistic, comfortable or cool guy approach needed or imagined to be needed for carry. However, this type of awareness only comes with practice and enforced discipline. When situation dictates that muzzles will flag an unintentional target (i.e. training, difficult terrain, loading unloading of vehicle, obstacles, maintenance, etc.) the weapon should be cleared and shown to everyone affected that is cleared and safe. When weapons are loaded, everyone affected should be notified of that fact. It is not difficult when applied and enforced as standard, non-negotiable practice. Where I came from if you could not follow that simple practice, we sent you back to conventional military because you were not needed or trusted.

Safe shooting.

All and good in practice.

Does not work when all of you are in very thick bush looking for a wounded animal that can kill all of you in seconds.

This I will agree with

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No matter how you carry you rifle, if you get into all sorts of terrain, bush, grass, forest, the muzzle WILL be pointed at someone, sometime.

It is not possible to carry your rifle in one specific way while hunting.

What is more important is who you are hunting with.

If they are aware of this or not.

So I get to bet my life on your practice and diligence? No thanks. Maybe if we knew each other better lol

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So hypothetically you are traveling in a line and carrying in such a fashion. How does one turn left to look at something or turn around to talk to the guy behind you without sweeping them with your muzzle? And if it was such a huge advantage why doesn’t anyone else do it?

Agree that safety starts with the individual. I am pretty sure it’s not a military convention as it would violate most manual of arms that I am aware of

You are always in control of the muzzle and if you turn either left/right you increase the downward angle or allow it to rise high and above and if you are "glassing" you can actually have the muzzles at almost 180 deg. to the carrying shoulder and still facing down. (Practice makes perfect)

Totally agree. If we could manage muzzle awareness during during CQB combat downrange, it shouldn't be too much to expect it while hunting. BTW, my screen name could just have easily been SFRanger1GP.

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
If you have muzzle control and muzzle awareness, your loaded weapon will never flag anyone. That applies regardless of what realistic, comfortable or cool guy approach needed or imagined to be needed for carry. However, this type of awareness only comes with practice and enforced discipline. When situation dictates that muzzles will flag an unintentional target (i.e. training, difficult terrain, loading unloading of vehicle, obstacles, maintenance, etc.) the weapon should be cleared and shown to everyone affected that is cleared and safe. When weapons are loaded, everyone affected should be notified of that fact. It is not difficult when applied and enforced as standard, non-negotiable practice. Where I came from if you could not follow that simple practice, we sent you back to conventional military because you were not needed or trusted.

Safe shooting.

I use the AC 80% of the time in the US and in Africa with doubles and scoped rifles. I have severe back pain so balancing the rifle on my shoulder seems to reduce the pressure on my lower back. I am always holding onto the barrel so I know what direction it is pointing at all times. Would I want a person using the AC walking behind me? HELL NO. I have hunted with quite a few PHs and VERY few seem to worried much about the clients muzzle integrity.

quote:

So I get to bet my life on your practice and diligence? No thanks.

Neither would I yours.

P.S. Clients are the worst offenders by far when it comes to gun safety.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with figures related to injury or death caused by PH adopting AC vs client who carries and handles whichever way he wants yet still able to be the author of an AD (sometimes with consequences).

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
If you have muzzle control and muzzle awareness, your loaded weapon will never flag anyone. That applies regardless of what realistic, comfortable or cool guy approach needed or imagined to be needed for carry. However, this type of awareness only comes with practice and enforced discipline. When situation dictates that muzzles will flag an unintentional target (i.e. training, difficult terrain, loading unloading of vehicle, obstacles, maintenance, etc.) the weapon should be cleared and shown to everyone affected that is cleared and safe. When weapons are loaded, everyone affected should be notified of that fact. It is not difficult when applied and enforced as standard, non-negotiable practice. Where I came from if you could not follow that simple practice, we sent you back to conventional military because you were not needed or trusted.

Safe shooting.

All and good in practice.

Does not work when all of you are in very thick bush looking for a wounded animal that can kill all of you in seconds.

I respectfully disagree. It does work; been there done that. When it is practiced and enforced, it works in real life. When it has never been practiced and enforced and you get into a less than ideal situation (thick brush and wounded animal as you referred), it turns into an amateur shit show and innocent people get hurt.

Talking apples and oranges here. Trained professionals that spend years perfecting weapon handling skills vs a bunch of strangers with unknown and probabaly minimal weapon handling skills. PHs might spend a lifetime perfecting this but they still get shot

fulvio,

You asked about instances where people had accidents with the AC. Roger Whittal killed his tracker using the AC. For me the sling is most safe. I carry it muzzle up most of the time and when we are getting in close I just take it off. I personally think PH's can be the worst about muzzle awareness. I've been very uneasy with PH's gun handling in the past on more than one occasion.

Mark

Why do they do it? Because it is fashionable. And because few people put slings on guns with break-open actions.

There's no way that I could bring myself to grasp the blue of the barrel of one of my fine riles with my sweaty hands, which is just one more reason not to do what is "fashionable".

Why do they put sling mounts on them then?

This thread is typical of how hunting is a sinking ship. Two pages of arguing on how to carry a damn rifle. We are indeed our own worst enemy....

Sorry you see it that way. I don’t. Projection of a safe and responsible image should be number one

The videos certainly don’t do that

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
GS, did any of the African PH's you hunted with carry their rifle slung upside down? Ie, standard sling, but with the wide portion near the butt and narrow portion toward the muzzle, resulting in the butt up and muzzle toward the ground when slung over the shoulder?

I've hunted with 3 PHs in RSA that preferred that method. I found it odd as all I could think of was if they had a discharge, it could hit them in the leg or foot.

I've seen others comment this method is the absolute most safe carry method, yet I'm unfamiliar with it and therefor uncomfortable with it.

Just wondering your thoughts on that method.

This is what I am most comfortable with. 2 safaris in Zimbabwe and 1 in Botswana it has worked for me.

I feel I was safe and have always been invited back.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
The videos certainly don’t do that

Videos do NOT give you a prospective on that!

The first morning of my first safari I was in a rush and did not put the sling on my rifle; that was a mistake. It wore me out carrying it on my shoulder and in my hands. That afternoon and from then on the sling has always been on my rifle for those long walking treks. When going through really difficult stuff just take it off the shoulder and use both hands to safely guide the muzzles direction.

I carry on a sling. If I think I'm in a position that might not be safe I unsling and carry in my two hands to control the muzzle. I think I cover the bases that way.

I watch all the African hunting shows. I repeatedly see muzzle sweeps with folks, both PHs and clients, using the AC method. I just don't see that with the folks carrying on a sling. And, I'm watching just 15 - 20 minutes of a 10+ day safari. Granted most of the footage shown is in flat terrain so not putting sling carry in compromising siturations, but then a lot of Africa is fairly easy flat walking.

With AC unless you are super, I mean super careful, you just really can't turn 45 degrees to the left and then 45 degrees to the right without sweeping. Just the way I see it.

Gunslinger, on your next safari, why don't you keep your rifle's chamber empty, and try the African Carry. AC has served me well on all of mine, and I personally do not find it uncomfortable to carry a bolt gun this way. And it IS possible to turn to the right or left without flagging someone if you pay attention to the muzzle. Gun handling safety should be a fluid situation, with changes made as necessary to control the muzzle direction. As others have pointed out, camera angles can make a safe carry method look unsafe. And, FTR, Col. Cooper's first rule is, "All guns always loaded all the time." "Never point the muzzle at anything you do not wish to destroy." is rule number two. If you have not tried AC, you are not in a position to comment on it. "Nuff said.

You are correct on the rules. Do you African carry in Alaska? Australia ? Colorado ? Montana? Europe? Didn’t think so. So still waiting for the point especially if you include bolt rifles. Pretty condescending answer that does nothing to educate us on how “safe” it is. I have had a rifle on my shoulder AC before so i am not totally unaware of what the “concept” is. I know it looks cool on a video

So referring to rule #1 do you think it’s compatible with the African Carry method with every Tom dick and harry?

And lastly do you carry unloaded? And if so how does any one else know?

How about this. I’ll pour through all my literature and see how many pictures and references to how real African hunters (not guys selling books magazines or videos) carry their weapons in Africa. I’m sure it’s a combination of many Methods. If anyone else can throw out some old school references that would be cool too. Understanding that firearms safety in the old days was even more lax than today. My main point is when you watch a video of a guy in Alaska SLUNG then he’s in Africa and is the old Bwana Africa carry 100 percent of the time it’s like “huh?” Is that for the video? Like it’s been said if it’s such a superior method why not do it every where? Frankly people seem to be getting muzzled, which violates all of old coopers rules.

And one two 3 go!

Give it a rest......

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
How about this. I’ll pour through all my literature and see how many pictures and references to how real African hunters (not guys selling books magazines or videos) carry their weapons in Africa. I’m sure it’s a combination of many Methods. If anyone else can throw out some old school references that would be cool too. Understanding that firearms safety in the old days was even more lax than today. My main point is when you watch a video of a guy in Alaska SLUNG then he’s in Africa and is the old Bwana Africa carry 100 percent of the time it’s like “huh?” Is that for the video? Like it’s been said if it’s such a superior method why not do it every where? Frankly people seem to be getting muzzled, which violates all of old coopers rules.

And one two 3 go!

Get a blaser r8. Load it and chamber a round. Then Remove the trigger/firing mechanism. Africa carry to you hearts contention.

Mike

Hahaha good one.

Ok beaten to death

No one made a compelling argument for it so lets leave it at that

Looks “good” on film and Africanny

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Hahaha good one.

Ok beaten to death

No one made a compelling argument for it so lets leave it at that

Looks “good” on film and Africanny

It is a discussion, on an open forum, so there will be many differing opinions.

To me, it is the person carrying gun that matters more than how he carries it in hunting.

Some of the opinions expressed here show that some people have not had many incidents hunting in differing terrain.

I have been hunting with certain individuals where I would not let them carry a loaded gun.

He can load it before he shoots.

Others I have total trust in.

But, ultimately, accidents WILL happen.

quote:

Do you African carry in Alaska? Australia ? Colorado ? Montana? Europe?

OF COURSE NOT! It wouldn't be fashionable to "African Carry" in Texas, either. Nor would it be fashionable to wear shorts with gaiters on your shoes. Hell, in Texas you can't even hunt in lace-up boots -- they have to be cowboy boots. In the NE U.S. you have to wear one of those plaid hats with the ear flaps. Anywhere you hunt coyotes you have to have one of those flip-down bipods attached to your fore end -- even if you're hunting at night with a spotlight and shooting offhand.

So, if you're hunting in Africa (especially if someone is going to catch you on video) you have to carry your rifle uncomfortably over your shoulder (at least while they are filming), otherwise it would look like you're a beginner and haven't yet learned the custom of how to make your hand and arm go to sleep by keeping them elevated for long periods of time.

Mark Sullivan uses the African Carry method.


There ... that should do it.

Well he is the master right? When one thinks of Africa and letting animals choose how they will die he is number one on the list for sure. So it’s gotta be true

Agreed. My point is that it is used like a fashion symbol. Which was my original gripe. There are times it’s useful sure but it seems to be used by some in the video/hunting world like a hat or pair of boots to appear period or local correct...you hunt probably with known qualititues which is ideal. Knowing who is handling a rifle and their competence is a 100 percent way to go but not realistic for most hunts and by judging the weapons handing on most videos lacking

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Hahaha good one.

Ok beaten to death

No one made a compelling argument for it so lets leave it at that

Looks “good” on film and Africanny

It is a discussion, on an open forum, so there will be many differing opinions.

To me, it is the person carrying gun that matters more than how he carries it in hunting.

Some of the opinions expressed here show that some people have not had many incidents hunting in differing terrain.

I have been hunting with certain individuals where I would not let them carry a loaded gun.

He can load it before he shoots.

Others I have total trust in.

But, ultimately, accidents WILL happen.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Well he is the master right? When one thinks of Africa and letting animals choose how they will die he is number one on the list for sure. So it’s gotta be true

Actually what I meant was that should make this dead horse get up and go into full blown explosion, guaranteeing at least 10 pages!