quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Is Buzz the only outfit demanding non refundable trophy fees in Zim?

He no longer has this policy and cancelled soon after someone on here complained.

Ya, thanks Saeed, for ruining prepaid trophy fees for the rest of us……

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder how many here would pay NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees??

It happens with buying packages including animals all the time.

And this is quite common in RSA, Namibia, and Zim on private land.

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
June 16, was the first refund request along with 6 other subsequent requests, 22 days since this came to light on AR, another excuse from the operator… zero dollars refunded…

I have a few questions for Fairgame:

-Since all of your clients received refunds and I still haven’t received a single dollar do you think my money was used to refund your other clients?

-How long should one have to wait to receive a full refund?

-Would if not be fair for interest to be paid to me for the money that has been held hostage?

You said you guarantee the money and that you may buy the Lion tag from me. You have mentioned a few times that you would be able to sell the Lion and leopard and even offered it up to members on here. Do you and the operator need to resale the hunt before I can be refunded?


Let’s see if you can answer these honestly. If you do, then it will go a long way with everyone on this site.

Personally, I am more interested in answers to these questions.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
June 16, was the first refund request along with 6 other subsequent requests, 22 days since this came to light on AR, another excuse from the operator… zero dollars refunded…

I have a few questions for Fairgame:

-Since all of your clients received refunds and I still haven’t received a single dollar do you think my money was used to refund your other clients?

-How long should one have to wait to receive a full refund?

-Would if not be fair for interest to be paid to me for the money that has been held hostage?

You said you guarantee the money and that you may buy the Lion tag from me. You have mentioned a few times that you would be able to sell the Lion and leopard and even offered it up to members on here. Do you and the operator need to resale the hunt before I can be refunded?


Let’s see if you can answer these honestly. If you do, then it will go a long way with everyone on this site.

Personally, I am more interested in answers to these questions.

+ 1

This has moved beyond expectations.

I learned that if you booked with an Africa PH or outfitter and they were based in Africa, you would need to take them to an African court to try and settle differences. An American hunter would spend years and probably more money than you lost taking a case to an African court. And most likely you would lose your case.

Also, if booking with an American outfitter, booking hunts one needs to be careful. A few have gone bankrupt and left the individual holding the bag.

So due diligence is all i can say. One year there are rave reviews and the next not so much. All one can do is rely on references and hope for the best. I have hunted in 4 different African countries and have been looking to try a few more before i call it quits in Africa.

The way i see it, is All the side sniping is not doing annyone any good.

The posters are lining up and taking sides, some have made trenches and dug in for the duration of this topic. It should have never have been started.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder how many here would pay NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees??

That is exactly what I had to do the last time I went to Botswana.

This entire matter was raised by 30-06 King who ultimately did go on safari with CMS. He had a great hunt with them.


CMS explained their position . Ultimately, they changed their policy and charged no one up front . Having been to Nyakasanga, I can tell you the chances of not getting a zebra are close to zero.

Not everyone here likes CMS. That is their right to have that opinion . Others do like CMS. That is also their right to have that opinion . Similarly, it is our right to form an opinion on Andrew. Personally, I’d go again with CMS . After this debacle, particularly the flat out misrepresentations,I have formed my opinion on hunting with Andrew. I would also be very careful about going to Zambia.

It boggles my mind that Andrew started this thread. It has not helped his position in my view.

Larry -

I feel as you do. I, have hunted with Andrew. It was long before both of our AR days. I think 2004? He supplied a good experience and up until this debacle I would have considered going again.

This is nothing but sell inflicted on his part. Letting the first thread die down and fall off the first page would've been the wise thing to do.

This one of those threads that should have never started. That being said I have a couple of comments.

First, I hope CME is made whole, soon. He did nothing wrong and received nothing for the money spent.

Second, I just don’t understand running CMS in to the ground over a short-lived business practice. If somebody wants to pay a non-refundable trophy fee, it is their decision, nobody forced them to do it. I still look at CMS as a good example of what a Zim operator should be, maybe I am wrong, but that is doubtful.

Third, as written before, Andrew stepped in (along with 2 AR members) and gave me a place to hunt when upon my arrival in Lusaka the operator I booked with had not secured quota and licenses. For that I will always remain grateful. It saddens me to see this thread.

Fourth, that Jines guy is one bad dude. (A little humor in an otherwise sad situation.

Good luck to all the stakeholders in resolving this soon.

You’re okay Burke . . . for a Cajun.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Ya, thanks Saeed, for ruining prepaid trophy fees for the rest of us……

Your choice!

Not mine.

In all my over 40 years of hunting Africa, I was NEVER asked to prepay trophy fees!

Anyone who does, will not get my business.

Mike is a stand up guy and a friend.

The perpetual mud slinging on this website is disappointing.

quote:

Originally posted by whisk(e)y hunter:
Mike is a stand up guy and a friend.

The perpetual mud slinging on this website is disappointing.

But he is really good at mud slinging as well

This thread should have never been started.... the poor client needs his deposit back end of the story...Very disappointing reading some of these comments...calling someone like Buzz A crook is beyond me...the fingers are pointing at the wrong guy... I still have to here about a client that booked a hunt with CMS and got stiffed and I DONT EVEN KNOW THE MAN... MET HIM ONCE AT ONE OF LARRY SHORES PARTIES... WHEN I started my business AR WAS my go to place for info on just about everything hunting related... it turned into a circus now with a few favourites outfitters that can do no wrong....it has completely lost its attraction to the avg Joe that just want to enjoy a good Hunting forum like it use to be.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
This thread should have never been started.... the poor client needs his deposit back end of the story...Very disappointing reading some of these comments...calling someone like Buzz A crook is beyond me...the fingers are pointing at the wrong guy... I still have to here about a client that booked a hunt with CMS and got stiffed and I DONT EVEN KNOW THE MAN... MET HIM ONCE AT ONE OF LARRY SHORES PARTIES... WHEN I started my business AR WAS my go to place for info on just about everything hunting related... it turned into a circus now with a few favourites outfitters that can do no wrong....it has completely lost its attraction to the avg Joe that just want to enjoy a good Hunting forum like it use to be.

I would guess that is referred to as "freedom of speech" and more often than not, gets to be excessive like in any other issue.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
This thread should have never been started.... the poor client needs his deposit back end of the story...Very disappointing reading some of these comments...calling someone like Buzz A crook is beyond me...the fingers are pointing at the wrong guy... I still have to here about a client that booked a hunt with CMS and got stiffed and I DONT EVEN KNOW THE MAN... MET HIM ONCE AT ONE OF LARRY SHORES PARTIES... WHEN I started my business AR WAS my go to place for info on just about everything hunting related... it turned into a circus now with a few favourites outfitters that can do no wrong....it has completely lost its attraction to the avg Joe that just want to enjoy a good Hunting forum like it use to be.

I would guess that is referred to as "freedom of speech" and more often than not, gets to be excessive like in any other issue.

Some here want AR to be like other hunting sites!

Lopsided!

Ain’t going to happen!

Feel free to say what you wish!

quote:

I would guess that is referred to as "freedom of speech" and more often than not, gets to be excessive like in any other issue.

BIG difference between freedom of speech and flat out calling someone a "crook"...the irony here is its not CMS That is not paying back a deposit.... makes you wonder you the real crooks are....

The client in question will hopefully get his money back.

NON REFUNDABLE trophies fees one NEVER gets back!

I suppose we do have difference of option who the real crooks are!

Those who DO NOT REFUND trophy fees they DEMAND you pay before your hunt!

I would never pay a non-refundable trophy fee. However, if someone signs on the bottom line, and the seller has been up front, so be it. That is not crooked; bad idea. However, not crooked.

A better solution would have been to escrow trophy fees for quota reserved or booked with a cancellation policy 30 days out making trophy fees for any cancelled quota reserved or booked non-refundable and payable.

If the buyer want to rebel refusing to sign such contracts; even better.

There is no excuse for Fairgame’s buyer not being refunded long ago.

I have no issue w him making public the situation and demonstrating Fairgame’s mis-remembrances concerning the deal.

quote:

The client in question will hopefully get his money back.

NON REFUNDABLE trophies fees one NEVER gets back!

I suppose we do have difference of option who the real crooks are!

Those who DO NOT REFUND trophy fees they DEMAND you pay before your hunt!

Help me out here... So the client in question knew about the non refundable deposit before the time???? If that is the case you are making a fool of your self Saeed CALLING Buzz a crook...WOW!! REGARDLESS IF THIS POOR client get his deposit back or not damage is done!!! he was clearly lied to. AND THE MONEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAID BACK AGESS AGO!!

Waiting for Fairgame to answer the questions??

This is really just crazy how it is all going.

I still dont think anyone on here is a crook. Cms start what I would say is a dumb policy but corrected it and no one is out money. Some dont like them now so be it.

Andrew sold a hunt and was going to be Ph for hunt. Buyer knew money was going to another party from the start. Andrew has tried and still is to get money back for buyer. andrew did not get paid either all because of something out of his control happend. What more can he do but talk with people who recieved money. How is he a crook or not doing all he can?

Does anyone on here really think if they send money for a hunt they are 100% for sure not going to risk something. 99% of the time no problem ever happen but to think there is no risk is crazy. I know there is a lot of book smart people on this site but sure does show common sense is lacking if anyone thinks andrew is trying to screw this guy over. All the post on this subject are a shame but dam guys stop with all hate towards either side.

I myself if I could would hunt with either outfit but my plains game budget will never let that happen. But I see 2 honest outfits just trying to make a living but now with guys trying to hurt either side based on who they like.

Before being called out publicly and backtracking his way out of a self-created mess, Buzz began charging non-refundable trophy fees up front because he had reserved quota for a client who then showed up and told Buzz he didn't want to hunt or shoot the reserved quota.

No hunter should do that.

But the solution is NOT for the outfitter to decide afterwards that he will treat all clients like dishonorable people.

Like Saeed, I will never hunt with anyone who demands non-refundable trophy fees up front.

I will not be treated by anyone with whom I hunt like some kind of petty criminal who will not act honorably or pay his bills.

There are too many fairer and better hunting opportunities out there.

It is a different story, of course, when the outfitter is forced to charge up front non-refundable fees by governmental requirements.

Under those circumstances, it's nothing personal and I get it.

Yet even then I have never bent to such requirements but have always hunted elsewhere.

Final answer is, ANY outfit with a question mark, will NEVER get my business!

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Cme:
June 16, was the first refund request along with 6 other subsequent requests, 22 days since this came to light on AR, another excuse from the operator… zero dollars refunded…

I have a few questions for Fairgame:

-Since all of your clients received refunds and I still haven’t received a single dollar do you think my money was used to refund your other clients?

-How long should one have to wait to receive a full refund?

-Would if not be fair for interest to be paid to me for the money that has been held hostage?

You said you guarantee the money and that you may buy the Lion tag from me. You have mentioned a few times that you would be able to sell the Lion and leopard and even offered it up to members on here. Do you and the operator need to resale the hunt before I can be refunded?


Let’s see if you can answer these honestly. If you do, then it will go a long way with everyone on this site.

Personally, I am more interested in answers to these questions.

+ 1

I am not aware of the Operators financial position nor of the deposit details but it is likely that some of your money was used to pay back others. Yes I would certainly say that interest should be accrued and would have thought this would have been reflected in your agreement. You did mention that the Operator was prepared to pay back in installments which was not satisfactory but nevertheless a solution. My comment was if I came into money which is highly likely - one being from Royal Kafue and the other being an inheritance from my late father then I would pay you back and take on this debt which I can cash in at a later date. Note that $60,000 for a Lion is a good deal nowadays and I would have no problems selling it once the hunting has been reinstated.

As stated you would do well to challenge the Opertor with the same questions for further clarification.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder how many here would pay NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees??

That is exactly what I had to do the last time I went to Botswana.

This entire matter was raised by 30-06 King who ultimately did go on safari with CMS. He had a great hunt with them.


CMS explained their position . Ultimately, they changed their policy and charged no one up front . Having been to Nyakasanga, I can tell you the chances of not getting a zebra are close to zero.

Not everyone here likes CMS. That is their right to have that opinion . Others do like CMS. That is also their right to have that opinion . Similarly, it is our right to form an opinion on Andrew. Personally, I’d go again with CMS . After this debacle, particularly the flat out misrepresentations,I have formed my opinion on hunting with Andrew. I would also be very careful about going to Zambia.

It boggles my mind that Andrew started this thread. It has not helped his position in my view.

Larry -

I feel as you do. I, have hunted with Andrew. It was long before both of our AR days. I think 2004? He supplied a good experience and up until this debacle I would have considered going again.

This is nothing but sell inflicted on his part. Letting the first thread die down and fall off the first page would've been the wise thing to do.

This one of those threads that should have never started. That being said I have a couple of comments.

First, I hope CME is made whole, soon. He did nothing wrong and received nothing for the money spent.

Second, I just don’t understand running CMS in to the ground over a short-lived business practice. If somebody wants to pay a non-refundable trophy fee, it is their decision, nobody forced them to do it. I still look at CMS as a good example of what a Zim operator should be, maybe I am wrong, but that is doubtful.

Third, as written before, Andrew stepped in (along with 2 AR members) and gave me a place to hunt when upon my arrival in Lusaka the operator I booked with had not secured quota and licenses. For that I will always remain grateful. It saddens me to see this thread.

Fourth, that Jines guy is one bad dude. (A little humor in an otherwise sad situation.

Good luck to all the stakeholders in resolving this soon.

Hi Mike

Interesting to note that I was never paid for that safari and the handshake agreement was to swap a safari for Kanzutu being Leon's project in the Luangwa which eventually went tits up. That was my risk

Also interesting to note that I never commented on the nonrefundable trophy fee debate but apparently it was me throwing Buzz under the bus?

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

quote:

The client in question will hopefully get his money back.

NON REFUNDABLE trophies fees one NEVER gets back!

I suppose we do have difference of option who the real crooks are!

Those who DO NOT REFUND trophy fees they DEMAND you pay before your hunt!

Help me out here... So the client in question knew about the non refundable deposit before the time???? If that is the case you are making a fool of your self Saeed CALLING Buzz a crook...WOW!! REGARDLESS IF THIS POOR client get his deposit back or not damage is done!!! he was clearly lied to. AND THE MONEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAID BACK AGESS AGO!!

Welcome to the thread Phillip and do you really want to get involved in this? Did I lie to the client? Ask him for the full history of our correspondence and the agreement he signed with the operator of which I had no influence and then comment when you have the full facts

A few years ago I went to Botswana with a group of guys. We had bought a package deal. I hunted one on one, they did two on one. They also used their bows for the first half of the trip. I was getting my animals and then some. They ended up switching to rifles but they didn't get all the animals in their package. They were a little upset that they weren't issued a refund on those animals but when I said that wasn't in the contract and you chose to hunt with bows, it was on them and they relented. They were first timers but I was my first time buying a package as well. I guess I just figured out that I paid for those animals and I was going to do my best and fulfill the package. We didn't discuss it until the ride home. Their next trip they didn't buy a package. Lessons learned.

I had done packages, with gun, no issues
If I was bow hunting I would not do that
Everything in US is package

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Burke

This is one of those threads that should have never started. That being said I have a couple of comments…

…Third, as written before, Andrew stepped in (along with 2 AR members) and gave me a place to hunt when upon my arrival in Lusaka the operator I booked with had not secured quota and licenses. For that I will always remain grateful. It saddens me to see this thread.

I can vouch for Mike & Andrew on this account, because the 2 AR members were me and my wife!
Andrew came to my wife and I and explained the bad spot Mike and his PH were in as Mike described above. He further said that this was our safari and we need not allow Mike to hunt on our safari, if we objected, which was honorable to us. But my wife and I welcomed a stranded hunter into our camp and to hunt with us.

Mike was a pleasure to have in camp, and he and his PH actually set up tents quite a distance away from main camp, so as not to disturb us or our hunting. It was a pleasure Mike.

The world isn't round.
The world isn't flat.

Its fucked.

Well off , presumably fairly intelligent people squabbling and bitching like, well, bitches. Sad.

This wouldn’t have happened if crooks did not charge non refundable trophy fees or taking clients money and refusing to pay it back

Saeed, sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. Your statement never happened.

Focus on the deposit!

Saeed
You’ve obviously never hunted in Ethiopia or even Mozambique. You must book and pay for quota before you hunt. If you don’t take it there is no refund. That’s the deal and people who want to hunt these areas are ok with that scenario.
I just don’t get this thing about being crooks????

Some countries have these rules. If a hunter signs a contract with an operator on this basis then it’s a contract between 2 willing parties. It’s really no one else’s business.

Calling these operators all crooks is just plain wrong.

What is crooked is an operator taking deposit moneys knowing full well he has no huntable quota, but using this deposit to refund other hunters deposits!!!!!


Now that’s being a crook!

quote:

Originally posted by WR500:
Saeed
You’ve obviously never hunted in Ethiopia or even Mozambique. You must book and pay for quota before you hunt. If you don’t take it there is no refund. That’s the deal and people who want to hunt these areas are ok with that scenario.
I just don’t get this thing about being crooks????

Some countries have these rules. If a hunter signs a contract with an operator on this basis then it’s a contract between 2 willing parties. It’s really no one else’s business.

Calling these operators all crooks is just plain wrong.

What is crooked is an operator taking deposit moneys knowing full well he has no huntable quota, but using this deposit to refund other hunters deposits!!!!!


Now that’s being a crook!

Thank you!

quote:

What is crooked is an operator taking deposit moneys knowing full well he has no huntable quota, but using this deposit to refund other hunters deposits!!!!!

The issue on hand has nothing to do with huntable or prepaid quotas but more to do with concessions under government dispute which put a spanner in the works.

Did the operator refund other hunters by borrowing/taking from Peter to pay Paul? .... possibly so.

Has the operator refused to pay the outstanding client his refundable amount? ... only the injured party can answer that.

If the Mozambican and Ethiopian governments demand non-refundable quota fees in advance that would be in accordance to their game laws but NOT if the outfitter chose to impose such demands.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. Your statement never happened.

Mike

I am not a lawyer!

I call it as I see it.

If you think I am a fool for being honest, tough luck!

Demanding NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees is only done by crooks!

Paying trophy fees demanded by the government is another matter!

Why did Buzz change his stupid, senseless policy then??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. Your statement never happened.

Why did Buzz change his stupid, senseless policy then??

Because like any responsible business person, he listened to the reaction of customers and changed the policy. Moreover, he changed the policy before anyone was ever made to pay the fees. So the policy was effectively never implemented. A fact you seem to conveniently overlook.

I know you will never admit to being wrong . . . but you are and most here understand that.

Another day has passed and I’m willing to bet CME has still not received his money back.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. Your statement never happened.

Why did Buzz change his stupid, senseless policy then??

Because like any responsible business person, he listened to the reaction of customers and changed the policy. Moreover, he changed the policy before anyone was ever made to pay the fees. So the policy was effectively never implemented. A fact you seem to conveniently overlook.

I know you will never admit to being wrong . . . but you are and most here understand that.

A responsible business man, with an iota of common sense, would never have started such a stupid policy!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Saeed, sometimes it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. Your statement never happened.

Why did Buzz change his stupid, senseless policy then??

Because like any responsible business person, he listened to the reaction of customers and changed the policy. Moreover, he changed the policy before anyone was ever made to pay the fees. So the policy was effectively never implemented. A fact you seem to conveniently overlook.

I know you will never admit to being wrong . . . but you are and most here understand that.

Or maybe because people on this very site had a problem with it he changed his mind.