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I am new on AR, but I would like to post a topic on this forum regarding the 458WIN. On another AR forum, a long discussion has been going on about the 458WIN vs 458LOTT. Ofcourse there is a difference in power, maybe marginal , I dont know. My question is: In your opinion; What is the largest animal that should be taken with a 458WIN.???? Buffalo maybe? I would like some practical reference, instead of alot of theory....hope you can help. The reason for my question is that I am offered a 458WIN and would like to know the practical limitations.....I like the rifle and I can handle the recoil, but to be honest...it is my limit...I think a LOTT will be a little too much. thanks M | ||
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OK. A little bit of light reading for you. The first Chuck Hawks page deals with killing power. You should read it. Good information there. Chuck Hawks: Killing Power The second compares a bunch of different cartridges as to Optimum killing range. You will not find the .458 Lott listed there, but it is a good starting point.Optimal Ranges There is a whole lot more Chuck has written. Try this index page for a whole bunch of articles comparing various calibers: Index Now, for my personal opinion. If given the choice, I would take the .458 Lott in a heartbeat. IMO, the .458 Winchester is overrated. Of course, I subscribe to the Tim (the tool man) Taylor philosophy, which simply stated is, "MORE POWER!" Finally, shot placement is everything. You can kill anything on this planet with a .458 Winchester if you hit it right. I would feel confident hunting elephant with it, but then some people think I have a death wish. I don't, but I do like pushing the envelope a tad. I would use my .416 remington mag for elephant. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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loading data for the 458 win mag is in arrears to the 458 Lott by a mere 60'/sec. This is the AR loading data pages. Maybe there's more data showing larger differences. I'm personally hard pressed to understand that the Lott offers much at all over the standard 458 Winchester. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I also have a question on the 458WIN, On approaching a downed Buff from behind after three good hits from a 470NE the animal moved "most likely just nerves" both the PH and I shot simultaneously, I with a 470NE soft and the PH's 458WIN with a hand loaded solid, this happened at appox three meters with the soft exiting but the 458 solid remaining inside, I was shocked when the guys recovered the solid. Question; why did it NOT exit? | |||
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Loading data for the 470 NE shows a 500 grain bullet at the same velocity of the .458 win mag. The 458 Win Mag is not adequate and the 470 NE is????? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Anything can happen in a small sample size. This sample size is exactly one. One person's experience may mean a lot to him, but statistically, it means next to nothing. If you want to really know something, you have to collect a lot of data. In the hunting world there are so many variables that consistent data is nearly impossible to collect. What has worked over many years, for many people, is about the best we can do. | |||
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I do know that my 470NE loads are doing 2130FPS and 2150FPS but i was shocked to see this solid, from memory he gets amo loaded in Zim or USA from reputable hand load companies as do most Zim PH'S. How good are these hand load companies, as we have very few of them in Australia? | |||
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OzHunter, Most hanload companies are just fine...but I think you are miising the point. The 470NE slug and the 458 Win slug may have been traveling at the same velocity. A sample size on one doesn't mean a thing. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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the whole thing about the 458 is that the data shows one thing but the chronograph shows another. In my 458's I was luckey to get 1900 FPS, my lott is more in the 2200 range, as is my 470 | |||
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VKG, I shoot the 458 Lott... Buff shot with a barnes X 45yds hit directly above the heart took out all major plumbing both to and from heart... Buff went all of 11 yds and went down..Did not even have time to bellow... Bull ele shot for brain but hit just under it...gave second shot on shoulder as it was spinning..used Bridger solids smashed the brain under neath and ele fell three times running away...Died that night 50 yds from where shot...Made a big circle and we ran out of daylight...Solids went in more then 24 inches in head and over six feet from shoulder into neck... Energy of the Lott is just under 6K with a 500gr and 2300+ fps Mike | |||
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My .470 NE gave about 2125 fps and my 458 in the 22" barrel gives 2150 fps (5100 ft-lb of energy). They are the same round and the 470 NE has been killing everything for a hundred years. But, if you can stand the abuse, the Lott is better (5800 ft-lb at 2300 fps). Bigger is always better; you just have to decide where your tolerance limit lies. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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As is common here, the thread got off of answering the question. Your question was "what is the largest animal the 458 Win. is suitble for. Answer: With full power handloads and good bullets it will easily handle elephant. 465H&H | |||
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Very intersting. After looking at the "Optimal Ranges", I discovered that the elands I have shot with a 150 grain 270 caliber bullet should not have died! "the bullet does not have enough energy to kill an animal of this size!!?? I wonder why people still keep writing such nonsense! The 458 Winchester will kill anything that walks this earth, but, it is not my choice for a hunting rifle in this day and age. I prefer my hunting bullets to travel at 2500 fps at least. | |||
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I also have a couple of heads on the wall that should not have fallen, Saeed. We must take this stuff for what it is worth. I did find it interesting that his "optimal" range for the .416 is longer than is that for the .458. THE LUCKIEST HUNTER ALIVE! | |||
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458Win (Phil Shoemaker) Posted 04 October 2004 19:55 The difference between the Lott and the original .458 in Hornady top factory loadings is only 100 fps. I've found reloads about the same. Hell, a little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet 100fps !! It makes no difference in the field. I compare the .458 Win to the .45 ACP. they may not be the biggest or the most powerful but thousands of pros have bet their lives upon them for decades. You Lott Worshipers nedd to wake up and smell the coffee, The 458win with modern ammunition will do anything a Lott will Dr B | |||
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My Rugers (an M77 and a #1) in .458 Win clock 2125 and 2105 fps respectively over my chrono with the 500gr Hornady Interbond over 66.0gr of RL-7 and a CCI250. You can still hear the powder rattle in the case when you shake the round - no compression. Cases extract smoothly and I've had no signs of pressure. I've not tried to push it faster because this is the factory standard for the round and it's a "standard" for such rounds that have worked for decades with no complaint. Bullet construction is the key here. In years past bullets of varying manufacture varied wildly in their construction/strength, causing shooters to fault the cartridge accross the board. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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Do not pay attention to Saeed. He uses poison bullets in his suped up .375! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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the 458 Lott does not have to deal with compaction and higher pressures in hot climes, that is its best advantage...Both will kill anything, but the 458 Win should be handloaded properly and it will still be operating at higher pressure levels.... For that reason the 458 Lott is a better designed cartridge hands down and is really what the 458 Win should have been all along and anyone that doubts that is suspect!   Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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you cant be serious...do you know how much poison it would take to kill a buff and how long it would take...i have seen his videos and i will say it is the right tools and good shooting that has done it and will continue 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Ray, That was short and sweet!! Straight to the point; no ambiguity. The corrollary to that is that the Lott should be handloaded correctly too -- to take advantage of the fact that it doesn't NEED to be compacted and loaded to the gills to be a great African performer. Dan | |||
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I shoot a custom 458 with a 26" barrel. I can get Lott type velocities with no signs of high pressure. It shoots and kills like a death ray. Unless I am in Alaska in the rain, it is my rifle of choice for everything from wild pigs on up to and including buffalo. Mark Jackson  | |||
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Yes the 458 Win Mag is capable of taking down an ele with proper bullet/loads. In order for it to be optimal in the field, it has to be a handloaded proposition. I have both and I find that the 458 WM is the softest biggie out there. Now, in order to shoot the Lott, I have to get myself mentally prepared to take a bit more punishment. If you research the subject, a handloaded 458 WM is still the standard that other cartridges are compared, rightly or not. Lo do they call to me, They bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla, Where the brave may live forever. | |||
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Not only that, but he uses one rifle that shoots two bullet sizes too! Have you seen that part yet? And how the game scout explains all this to the trackers! Last year, Ray stood there with the biggest grin on his face, looking at our game scout who was scratching his head as he looked at two of my empty case. One headstamped 416 Dakota and one RWS 404! Ray's only comment was "the poor guy! He is scarred for life now!" | |||
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The .458 win, as we all know, got a bad rap in it's early days. Problems with caked powder due to compression and or age caused the round to fire at a greatly reduced velocity. With the advent of better powders and modern bullets the .458 Win does what it's supposed to. That is, to be exact, to duplicate the balistics of the .470NE. When it does so it kills just like it ought to. I would say that is a no brainer. Wouldn't you? The .458 Lott performs this replication with less effort, as Ray so eloquently pointed out making it a very good choice in a .458 caliber round. And to answer the original question the .458 win is capable of taking any animal on the planet when loaded correctly with proper bullets. | |||
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boom stick, Surely you realize that statment was in jest.  | |||
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Ozhunter Every single shot is really individual - where was the PH in relation to yourself when you both fired? Did both bullets strike close together? What penetration did the .470 SN have? Did the .458 WM strike any bone? Even the ribs of a Cape Buffalo are substantial enough to drain a lot of energy/penetration? Couple of thoughts to consider as there is no way these projectiles would have had identical paths through this animal. APB | |||
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I consider the .458 Win with a proper hand load an excellent killer of elephant and buffalo, whatever... I do understand that the caliber was the stepson of the Win. bean counters who never have been blessed with intelligent design and the .458 Win is no exception, it is now and was from its conception, short on powder space, a tendency towards compaction, and a short cut production sales program... If I had a .458 today I would chamber it out for the 458 Lott and shoot 500 gr. bullets at 2100 FPS same as the 458 Win. and be done with the problems the Win has had historically and justifiably... The .458 or the 458 Lott is no .470 IMO based on a number of buffalo shot by me and observation of Buffalo shot by others with both calibers..I put a lot of faith in that larger cross section that some seem to think makes no difference, but it does, and even in small amounts with equal velocity.... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Who was it that said (about buffalo), "If the first shot from a .470 is misplaced, the next 14 only tend to aggravate him"? Shot placement first, second, and third. Dave "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value." -Thomas Paine, "American Crisis" | |||
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