I recorded a couple of African episodes of this program and they have one common theme: shooting off the truck (well apart from promoting Hornady and Howa). The first episode was set in the open grassland of the OFS where there isn't much cover. That was the excuse for taking shots off the vehicle, and the PH actually pressured his hunters to use that technique. Boyer didn't object. They even used the vehicle to harrass the herds to the point where they could get a shot. But in the episode I watched tonight, set in the Bushveld where cover is plentiful, I watched Boyer again shoot an impala and a Zebra in the road from the back of the vehicle. And this time, I swear he was inebriated ... his speech seemed slurred and the dialogue was clumsy. He also nearly toppled over while squatting around his zebra "trophy". Did anyone else notice this? Is Boyer a drunk? And what kind of outfitter/PH wants to advertise this style of hunting? I was embarrassed to watch this spectacle. Howa and Hornady should be ashamed of these "promotional" videos. Boyer, if you have a problem with booze, hang it up and get help before you hurt somebody.

It is one of the worst snows on TV.

CHC, why is this beating a dead horse? Did I miss something?

Russ - I watched the impala/zebra episode this past weekend too. Frankly, I was very surprised to see that on National Television.

In fact, if you didn't catch it, watch again and listen carefully. At one point the PH actually asks the hunter if he wants to get down off the truck to stalk/shoot the animal, and the hunter says "no"!! I didn't notice if he was drunk?

My point here is simple. I know this goes on, and if its legal, carry on. But for heaven sakes - please don't put it on national tv, or video, as a representation of big game hunting! I'm not sure we can look much worse than that?

I saw this last show also and was a bit suprised. I hadn't seen NWH for many years. It apparently is done by a new producer. It use to be a pretty good show. I remember a good Mt Lion hunt in BC years ago, but things do change and not always for the good.

I will admit I have shot Impala from the truck but we weren't hunting we were just shooting Leopard bait as quickly as we could.

quote:

CHC, why is this beating a dead horse? Did I miss something?

Only if you have missed all the other discussions about what is and is not proper form when hunting.

Shooting from vehicles, does not matter if it is perfectly legal, some people find it wrong, some people don't, nothing is ever going to change that. =

What is shown on a video whether it appears on TV or the internet, some folks want things one way, some folks don't care as long as what is depicted is legal, nothing is ever going to change that. =

quote:

I will admit I have shot Impala from the truck but we weren't hunting we were just shooting Leopard bait as quickly as we could.

What is the difference, either way, a hunt was being conducted. What if while "Hunting" for bait from the truck, a New World Record Impala had strolled out in view?

Would the vehicle backed up some arbitrary distance and everyone bail out and try putting on a stalk on an already alerted animal?

issue!

It does not matter what shows up for Public consumption, the folks wanting hunting stopped are going to find something wrong with it, but the bigger problem is hunters, jumping astride their "Personal Higher Ethics War Horse" start Publicly denouncing other hunters for doing perfectly Legal activities. Again issues.

You want to influence what is shown in videos, stop buying the videos and express your concerns to the people producing them, the firms advertising on them, and the outlets distributing them.

After all that, and All hunting shows disappear from TV and people stop making videos, then folks will truly understand just exactly how much we help the anti crowd, simply by finding fault with how others participate in a presently Legal activity.

CHC:

I thought you were speaking of this particular show.

Larry who knows of what he speaks at any given time!

As to a world record Impala taken under the circumstance outlined above then any game taken by chance would fall into the same catagory, i e you were not hunting that animial so it doesn't count eh. WOW!!!

One thing that just about all hunters worldwide agree on - ya shouldn't pick up a firearm after drinking. It has to be taught to the young ones coming up. It has to be reminded to folks periodically in most every camp. And if it happens on a TV show, it should hit the edit room floor.

As we all age, usually the only thing done well truly drunk is more drinking. Just about everything else is a less-than-stellar performance that results in nothing more than a mess.

quote:

Larry who knows of what he speaks at any given time!

As to a world record Impala taken under the circumstance outlined above then any game taken by chance would fall into the same catagory, i e you were not hunting that animial so it doesn't count eh. WOW!!!

That is a good way to not answer the question. Would you have made the PH back the vehicle away and then put on a stalk hoping to get a shot at the animal. All that requires is a simple HONEST yes or no answer. I mean how can shooting from a vehicle just to obtain bait is okay, where as if it is a potential trophy it is a far, far better thing to let the animal walk and then put on a stalk.

I may not have hunted Africa, YET, but I have hunted enough to know the difference between Situational ethics and InterNet ethics, and have seen both in action!!!

The comment about being drunk or even questionably impaired being edited out should be S.O.P.

CRAZY HORSE- I'm with you...people shoot from the truck all the time. If others choose not too...bc it makes them feel better to take a step and stand on the ground next to the truck...who cares. NO real difference.

As I said, if the guy was drunk or appeared drunk, I agree that sequence should have been edited out, and I like to drink.

People keep pontificating that hunting should be shown as it actually is, As Long As It Fits With In Their Concepts Of What Is And Is Not Ethical!

I have hunted enough to have seen how high minded ethical values start a down hill slide when time starts getting short and people face the reality of possibly going home empty handed.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
CRAZY HORSE- I'm with you...people shoot from the truck all the time. If others choose not too...bc it makes them feel better to take a step and stand on the ground next to the truck...who cares. NO real difference.

There is a HUGE difference. If there wasn't, I would have about a 47 inch buffalo right now. My PH and I were riding on top; saw the buffalo and could have easily shot it from the truck. However, when I stepped down they all took off running.

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
CRAZY HORSE- I'm with you...people shoot from the truck all the time. If others choose not too...bc it makes them feel better to take a step and stand on the ground next to the truck...who cares. NO real difference.

There is a HUGE difference. If there wasn't, I would have about a 47 inch buffalo right now. My PH and I were riding on top; saw the buffalo and could have easily shot it from the truck. However, when I stepped down they all took off running.

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

How about using a blind? A treestand? A ghillie suit? Hiding behind a bush? Where does it end? I'm not saying shooting from a vehicle is right or wrong, but how about not gutting each other for the legal choices we make? Remember, ethics in the field are not the same from one place to another. A little tolerance will go a long way. Sometimes its much more rewarding to embrace our differences rather than using them to start a fight. We might learn something!

I saw the beginning of the show. As soon as I saw them shoot from the truck, I changed channels. If I see a re-run, I will pay a lot more attention.

The only episode of that show I liked was duck/goose hunting.

I have not seen the show, and my objection to a lot of shows that I have seen parts of is the silly hi-five and incredibly silly celebrations after the shot!

AMEN TO THAT. sometimes i expect to see the hunter moon walking to rap music in the background. as Walter Payton once said about end zone touchdown celebrations- ACT LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE BEFORE!

quote:

Originally posted by scojac:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
CRAZY HORSE- I'm with you...people shoot from the truck all the time. If others choose not too...bc it makes them feel better to take a step and stand on the ground next to the truck...who cares. NO real difference.

There is a HUGE difference. If there wasn't, I would have about a 47 inch buffalo right now. My PH and I were riding on top; saw the buffalo and could have easily shot it from the truck. However, when I stepped down they all took off running.

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

How about using a blind? A treestand? A ghillie suit? Hiding behind a bush? Where does it end? I'm not saying shooting from a vehicle is right or wrong, but how about not gutting each other for the legal choices we make? Remember, ethics in the field are not the same from one place to another. A little tolerance will go a long way. Sometimes its much more rewarding to embrace our differences rather than using them to start a fight. We might learn something!

Oryxhunter inferred shooting from the truck was no different than stepping away. Well, it is not. That was my point.

quote:

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

How about not yourself. Did you have to get down from the truck or did YOU decide to get down from the truck??? Which was it??? Could you have LEGALLY shot from the truck???? Whose decision was it to get out of the truck, yours or the PH's????

One step, ten steps, 100 yards, does not make a difference. The animal was spotted from the truck. If your PERSONAL ethics forced you into dismounting to take the shot, That Is Your Damn Problem. Just because someone else does not share your PERSONAL ethical code, that does not make them less of a hunter/sportsmen, ESPECIALLY if what they do is LEGAL.

Just a comment on the statements against the after shot celebrations. I tend to be a pretty subdued guy myself, but do all of you who object to the high fives and back slapping also object to the camp staff singing and dancing when your trophy is brought into camp? That is a celebration of successful hunting is it not?

there is a big difference between celebratory high fives, back slapping, etc, and some of the crap you see on TV- and it is pretty damn obvious. i really don't care to see an end zone dance. as far as the camp staff celebration, that is a traditional African thing that has been ongoing in one form or another for quite a while.

quote:

Just a comment on the statements against the after shot celebrations. I tend to be a pretty subdued guy myself, but do all of you who object to the high fives and back slapping also object to the camp staff singing and dancing when your trophy is brought into camp? That is a celebration of successful hunting is it not?

Even though this discussion is taking place in the African Hunting section. not all huntinmg or hunting shows are based in Africa.

A traditional native celebration after a successful hunt is one thing. What shows up in the videos is something completely different.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Just a comment on the statements against the after shot celebrations. I tend to be a pretty subdued guy myself, but do all of you who object to the high fives and back slapping also object to the camp staff singing and dancing when your trophy is brought into camp? That is a celebration of successful hunting is it not?

Even though this discussion is taking place in the African Hunting section. not all huntinmg or hunting shows are based in Africa.

A traditional native celebration after a successful hunt is one thing. What shows up in the videos is something completely different.

Why is it different?

Most of the time the camp staff will want you the hunter to participate in the dance. Is that offensive also? They may even decorate you with leaves and toilet paper, carry you on their shoulders, or at least in a chair and parade you around. Is that offensive?

Just asking. But again, I don't do the high five stuff and find participating in the dances to be a bit on the embarrassing side, especially if I'm having my hunt filmed. But this still seems a bit hypocritical IMO. The reason being that the dancing and singing at the end of a successful hunt is something that is traditional and accepted and is rooted in history. Is not the high five and back slap the contemporary method of celebrating? Why is one celebration OK and the other is not?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

How about not yourself. Did you have to get down from the truck or did YOU decide to get down from the truck??? Which was it??? Could you have LEGALLY shot from the truck???? Whose decision was it to get out of the truck, yours or the PH's????

One step, ten steps, 100 yards, does not make a difference. The animal was spotted from the truck. If your PERSONAL ethics forced you into dismounting to take the shot, That Is Your Damn Problem. Just because someone else does not share your PERSONAL ethical code, that does not make them less of a hunter/sportsmen, ESPECIALLY if what they do is LEGAL.

Crazy:

You have a major reading problem. I am responding to the comment, "Shooting from the truck is no different than stepping away."

Okay, if it is no different, then why not do it? Too lazy? Or afraid the animal will run away?

You want to shoot from the truck, go ahead. But don't tell me it is the same as stepping out, because it isn't.

And I don't think it is legal to shoot from the truck; but I don't read the regs, I follow the instructions of my PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

One step, ten steps, 100 yards, does not make a difference. The animal was spotted from the truck. If your PERSONAL ethics forced you into dismounting to take the shot, That Is Your Damn Problem. Just because someone else does not share your PERSONAL ethical code, that does not make them less of a hunter/sportsmen, ESPECIALLY if what they do is LEGAL.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
CRAZY HORSE- I'm with you...people shoot from the truck all the time. If others choose not too...bc it makes them feel better to take a step and stand on the ground next to the truck...who cares. NO real difference.

There is a HUGE difference. If there wasn't, I would have about a 47 inch buffalo right now. My PH and I were riding on top; saw the buffalo and could have easily shot it from the truck. However, when I stepped down they all took off running.

One step away from the truck is in no way the same as shooting from the truck. Don't bullshit yourself.

If buffalo were conditioned to being shot from a vehicle, your 47" buff would have shown you his departing butt much earlier....making your hunt more challenging.
Seems that one can gain advantage over game when its not conditioned to being shot from a vehicle.

A vehicle could get one unsuspectingly much closer and drop the hunter off where the game cannot see you disembark....sounds like unfare advantage/cheating/taking the easy way out....others might say their idea of hunting is not to give the animal all the chances he deserves,... Its to take advantage of /outwit him and nail him!

How about we make law where one is required to shoot in the air[from the vehicle] when you spot your intended quary/game,..then begin ones stalk.

that way the method of walking the obligatory 5 or 50yd from the vehicle in order to shoot him "ethically" [or backing the truck up 50yd and stepping off] would not be a serviceable option, cause the aware beast would have high tailed it when the vehicle was 500yds off.

whats wrong with a beast being afraid/perceiving both man and vehicle as threat?

why ride in a vehicle that gives the animal the perception that your not a threat, when in a stealthy manner,you actually are?

But that might mean people might actually have to more often track an animal rather than just follow it on visual line of sight.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I will admit I have shot Impala from the truck but we weren't hunting we were just shooting Leopard bait as quickly as we could.

What is the difference, either way, a hunt was being conducted. What if while "Hunting" for bait from the truck, a New World Record Impala had strolled out in view?

Would the vehicle backed up some arbitrary distance and everyone bail out and try putting on a stalk on an already alerted animal?

To shoot the ordinary Impala for bait [from the truck] but then feel one has to step down and stalk the record Impala in the same group,- hilarious.

Why not just shoot both from the truck and say one was fortunate enough to collect this fine record Impla whilst bait shooting for Leopard.
Sounds as if some people have to make a ritual hunt out of the most simple of situations and opportunities.
I gather some persons could not come onto ARAHF or go to SCI and tell every one that record creature was simply found and shot the same way [and along with ] the lesser Leopard bait Impala.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
there is a big difference between celebratory high fives, back slapping, etc, and some of the crap you see on TV- and it is pretty damn obvious. i really don't care to see an end zone dance. as far as the camp staff celebration, that is a traditional African thing that has been ongoing in one form or another for quite a while.

It isn't pretty obvious to me! What is the "big difference"? Are they not both an expression of happiness of a successful hunt? I really don't see anything more in it than that. Some people are less reserved than others. I tend to be a reserved fellow. I don't hoop and holler and carry on. I'm not a very outgoing person. Many of my friends are and would tend to get more excited about things than I do and tend to show it outwardly.

Again, why is the traditional African dance and song celebration with the hunter on their shoulders wearing leaves and toilet paper less offensive to some than the high five and back slap. I just don't see the difference. Is a high five that much more offensive than a handshake? How about the traditional African handshake?

Can you explain the difference in logical terms other than saying "it just is"? If so, I'll be more than happy to listen.

quote:

Most of the time the camp staff will want you the hunter to participate in the dance. Is that offensive also? They may even decorate you with leaves and toilet paper, carry you on their shoulders, or at least in a chair and parade you around. Is that offensive?

Todd:

As JDollar said, the dance is an African tradition celebrating the death of only 3 animals that I know of: Elephant, Lion & Leopard, being the 3 main contributors of misery to the lives of villagers in the form of crop raiders and livestock killers and the occasional man-eating event.

Ask yourself why they don't carry you around and dance after having shot an Impala, Kudu or a Buffalo or any of the other species?

I'm no expert on American history but didn't the Indians celebrate before or after a Bison hunt?......in line with tradition and nothing more....guess the high fives and back-slapping wasn't fashionable in those days...probably just went back to the village and balled the squaws instead

I never had the dancing etc after killing L, L or E. I do remember word going out to the nearest village after the elephant kill and the women and childeren of the village came to get the elephant meat. Of course the human nature showed thru as there were squables about places in line for the meat. Personally shooting Impala or any other animial from the truck for bait is the same as culling and should not be equated with hunting, but JMO. Personally if I was shooting bait and got the opportunity to take a big head of the species that is the way the story would go, I sure would not be ashamed of the facts, just the way it happened.

The day I killed my Leopard they had a party in the evening and I had a couple of beers to celebrate and the white staff got plastered. I never knew if it was a celebration of the kill or just a reason to get drunk. I will also add they partied until the early hrs of the morning and at 5:00 AM there was the knock on my door to get going. Those Zims party hard and hunt hard.

Sometimes when I kill an animal I get excited & happy, othertimes I get solem.
On the rare occasion that I get excited, I going to act excited!
I've never been videoed, so I'm not hamming it up for a camera, it's just pure emotion that I'm going on.
When I take my teenage friend from church hunting, if he kills a doe,
we celebrate. We don't go crazy, but we do smile & laugh some & relive the moment.

Not meaning to offend anyone with my comment, but at some point we all have to grasp the realities of hunting.

If a person hunts long enough, hard enough, and in enough different locations, things are going to happen in the killing of an animal that may have not been just exactly the way we wanted it too, but as the popular saying goes, "Shit Happens". It is just part of life as a hunter. We don't neccessarily have to be proud of an easy kill, but we don't have relegate said kill to a lesser status, simply because the hunting God smiled on us at that point in time and presented us with a gimmie shot.

Luck comes in to play from time to time, good or bad. Think of all the times you have hunted hard, yet in the end did not make the kill.

So when we get the chance at an easy kill, accept it for what it is, a reward for those times you paid your dues and worked your ass off but didn't kill the game.

As for the celebrations, to me the high fiving/back slapping/hooting and hollering and dancing around/ thumbs up sigh a dozen times on film just does not look good to me, other people can look at it however they wish too.

Crazy horse +5000...some of my best trophies by inch standards have come easy...others have been more challenging. I'm proud either way...especially bc I've been a very lucky
Hunter!

I shot my first leopard the first 3 hrs I sat in the blind. Should I not be proud of it???? I shot my second leopard 3 sittings later!!! All on the same trip! Am I supposed to be ashamed bc I didn't sit for 35 days....I think not!

I hunted in 10' with no luck...11' was certainly my year!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Most of the time the camp staff will want you the hunter to participate in the dance. Is that offensive also? They may even decorate you with leaves and toilet paper, carry you on their shoulders, or at least in a chair and parade you around. Is that offensive?

Todd:

As JDollar said, the dance is an African tradition celebrating the death of only 3 animals that I know of: Elephant, Lion & Leopard, being the 3 main contributors of misery to the lives of villagers in the form of crop raiders and livestock killers and the occasional man-eating event.

Ask yourself why they don't carry you around and dance after having shot an Impala, Kudu or a Buffalo or any of the other species?

I'm no expert on American history but didn't the Indians celebrate before or after a Bison hunt?......in line with tradition and nothing more....guess the high fives and back-slapping wasn't fashionable in those days...probably just went back to the village and balled the squaws instead

OK, I understand now. It's OK to celebrate those 3 animals but not the others. Makes sense.

Let's see, the American Indians celebrating. Well, this isn't much of a reference, but in the movie "Dances with Wolves" after the big Buffalo hunt, the next scene is of the Indians dancing around the campfire, celebrating by retelling the story over and over. Hmmm ... not the same at all.

Man has celebrated the hunt in one form or another since prehistoric times. Evidenced by the cave drawings done by Africans, American Indians, Australian Aborigines, and primitive man where ever he existed. Here on AR we have races to the bottom and races to the top. Races to the bottom end up with insults. Races to the top end up with "my way is superior to yours". I see this celebrating issue to be another hypocritical issue that most haven't given much thought to.

I watched Beast of Legend again last night while typing my posts. I noticed that during one of the croc hunts, JP shook hands with his client after shooting his lizard. While still shaking his hand, he patted the guy on the back twice. So, the question is, was it fine to shake his hand, but crossed the line as soon as he patted him on the back? Is it OK for the client to shake hands with the PH but crosses the line when he shakes hands with the staff in the traditional African handshake?

It's really just a question of good taste, and in some cases, couth, or lack thereof.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
It's really just a question of good taste, and in some cases, couth, or lack thereof.

So another "Well it just is"!

So, have we determined if he was drunk or not?

Just a thought, but to the non hunting public (and a great percentage of hunters), watching a tv show where a perfectly able bodied person is hunting/shooting from the back of a truck makes us all look like $hit! You may not like it, but that is the reality. Legal or not, my PERSONAL opinion is that we are only hurting ourselves by putting that behavior on tv/you tube where those watching start to believe that this is the norm for all hunters.
I am getting really tired of defending my right to hunt due to the questionable "if its legal, its ok" antics of others. If we don't hold ourselves to some basic level of standards others will dictate it to us through regulation.

I also watched the show and if I recall they talked about this PH as specializing in disabled hunts.

Anyone ever think maybe Boyer has some medical issues, people do get older.

Hi 5's and all that shit wants to make me puke I won't watch old roger ragland can't remember another ones name he is a whitetail hunter he screems and yells and puts a war face on after a shot

Hunt-ducks remembers what I do -- showed wheelchair lifts and specialized rifles/shotguns as well IIRC. Did not notice the hunter's specific disability though...

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Crazy horse +5000...some of my best trophies by inch standards have come easy...others have been more challenging. I'm proud either way...especially bc I've been a very lucky
Hunter!

I shot my first leopard the first 3 hrs I sat in the blind. Should I not be proud of it???? I shot my second leopard 3 sittings later!!! All on the same trip! Am I supposed to be ashamed bc I didn't sit for 35 days....I think not!

I hunted in 10' with no luck...11' was certainly my year!

I am not saying you make it hard on purpose. All I am saying is stepping out of the truck is not the same as shooting from the truck. Hell, at the very least you have a fantastic rest if the rifle is on the roll bar, and your butt is on the seat cushion. Step away and that is gone. Set up the sticks and you are at risk of the animal running.

In my opinion if they wanted to show how handicapped hunters could be provided for it would be best to do a show with a handicapped hunter if he or she would be willing to have their hunt filmed. Some (non-handicaped) hunters would probably be better shooting from the truck as their marksmanship is not that great. From what I have read and heard this may be the case more often than not. Personally I like sticks and don't like shooting off hand. I like nothing better than a good rest to make a good clean killing shot. I don't need to be able to brag on my shooting abilities. I have also seen too many paper shooters that can't hit a live animal worth a damn.